North Korea: What to do?

North Korea nightThe present situation with North Korea (NOKO) reminds me of some of the scenarios in the dystopian, apocalyptic and “prepper” genre I sometimes read.   Frankly, the news these days makes me nervous.  I must say I am really glad that the present team is in the White House rather than what we had or what we dodged.  And, yes, I think this would have happened regardless of the administration: the NOKOs are on their own schedule.

So, what to do about North Korea?

Since this blog is probably being monitored by teams from about 17 national security agencies, here’s my idea!

  • Make a deal with China: they annex NOKO.
  • Convince Seoul to agree or at least shut up about it.
  • Give China money to feed the NOKOs for 2-3 years.
  • China allows US and South Korea to invest in economic and commercial infrastructure in China’s new province/protectorate.
  • Result: China gets buffer state it can control (better than it can now), the West gets a place to invest, and the world is rid of a threat.

So, fellas, kick the idea upstairs and see what happens.  This might be better than death and destruction.

And to the teams from the agencies, who probably also watch me through my phone, as I’ve said before, if you send me your addresses, I’ll send you some pizzas!  Deal?

The moderation queue is ON.

Please share!

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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77 Responses to North Korea: What to do?

  1. Chrisc says:

    Fr. Z, I like this solution. However, I don’t think the Chinese will go for it. Yet. Under this scenario, China takes on a responsibility that they don’t want to get mired in, plus it cuts at their current diplomatic leverage with NOKO. As it has stood, for 50 years China has been the responsible friend of the ‘crazy NOKO’. As long as people worked with China’s offers, they in turn kept NOKO on something of a leash, until they needed to renegotiate something, then low and behold NOKO seems crazy again.

    Everyone else has played the appeasement/extortion game with the Chinese so long as they keep crazy at bay. Trump has understood that the only way to really win is to have the Chinese take real responsibility for NOKO. He tried trade, but that wasn’t good enough leverage for China against the diplomatic advantage, so now he has pivoted to punch NOKO in the face. This is a calculated risk to drive the wedge completely between the Chinese and the North Koreans—-making the Chinese realize that the Koreans aren’t worth it, and making the Koreans distrustful of China’s lack of protection. Only by ratcheting up the intensity and pressure can the Chinese and North Koreans be driven apart.

    The good news is that this is precisely what Trump does. This is how he worked as both the leader and the whip in order to get the healthcare proposal through the House. He insults both sides, but argues that there must be a solution, and sets a schedule which even if he relaxes, he then ups again. Now this hasn’t worked with the Senate Healthcare bill and maybe it won’t work with China and North Korea. But it might not work for really different reasons here. Moreover, even if it doesn’t come to a real resolution here like the one you propose, then I think it comes to a de facto resolution – namely Kim backs down and shows he’s not so crazy, which in turns weakens China’s diplomatic pitch, which depending on the degree to which this occurs, may result in a loss of face that opens China to consider a regime change in North Korea.

    In short, North Korea is only advantageous to China within certain parameters of crazy. If it is too rational or too crazy, it is not helpful to China anymore. Trumps pressure is an attempt to force North Korea to decide which it is.

  2. Anneliese says:

    I assume you’re being facetious, as the ordinary citizens in NK are suffering. [No. I’m not being facetious about NOKO… maybe a little about the 17 agencies.] I have friends who are part Korean whose family came from the North before emigrating to U.S. They believe the conditions of NK are that of a holocaust.

    [What I proposed would be a huge improvement for the people of that disastrous country.]

  3. It would seem that the cleanest and safest way for the ChiComs to bring the only fat man in North Korea to heel would be for them to annex North Korea. They cannot be happy at the prospect of one of his foolish, nuked-up missiles veering off course and hitting China. Sadly, it would also seem that the people of North Korea would be vastly better off under the ChiComs than they are now.

    I would not be surprised if the ChiComs turn out to have a secret knife or two very close to the throat of Kim Jong Un.

  4. PTK_70 says:

    I’ve thought the same thing myself, namely, China should annex North Korea.

    South Korea may not be keen on this solution, but the shifting of borders is not altogether uncommon, nor is the existence of minority language groups in countries close to where the mother tongue is spoken. For example, there are German speakers today in northern Italy and eastern France. Here in the U.S.A. our southern and western borders shifted in the 19th century and in the process Catholic, Spanish-speaking people abruptly found themselves as residents of another country. With respect to this last situation, you might hear people say, not bitterly, mind you, something akin to, “Our ancestors didn’t move across the border, the border moved across us.”

  5. Hornblower says:

    Dear Father,

    Having spent 14 years in the Air Force, one of them in Korea (the south), I can confidently say the South Koreans see a unified Korea as their destiny.

    I suspect South Koreans would only accept the idea of Chinese annexation of North Korea after losing a war over the matter.

    Because money is fungible, the North Koreans haven’t spent money given for the purpose to feed their people but to fund weapons development. Feeding people, except the elite, is not a priority. They cannot be trusted on this matter.

    China is a strategic rival (perhaps even enemy) of the US. A partnership with the US that they can’t control or manipulate is beyond their M.O., and certainly, China doesn’t want any western “evangelization” in DPRK, a vassal state. In the end, giving DPRK to China doesn’t solve the larger problem.

    China is the root of the problem. DPRK is a proxy for China and could do little without China’s approval. It serves China’s purpose for DPRK to threaten the US while it appears neutral. The US is dull and obtuse on these matters. China’s expanding influence/interest in Central America, Africa, India, and especially, the South China Sea is intended to rollback US influence and interests. The theft of the South China Sea might lead to war with China.

    The conflict is with powers and principalities, which requires prayer and fasting. Lord, have mercy on us.

  6. Andrew1054 says:

    It occurred to me this during my morning rosary that the whole North Korea situation (and Chinese and Russian support of this regime) could be an example of what Our Lady of Fatima warned the world about when she said communist Russia would spread its errors throughout the world. Soviet Europe may have fallen but Stalinist Communism is still hurting the world.

    I say this as an ordinary Catholic who has a profound respect for Fatima but don’t have a particular devotion to Fatima. That being said, the more I read about those apparitions and look at what’s going on in the Church and the world I can’t help but think that there’s more to Fatima than I previously thought. Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us!

  7. Baritone says:

    My first thought just looking at the satellite map is that North Korea would be a great place for amateur astronomers. No light pollution.

    I do have an uncanny feeling about this escalation occurring 100 years since Fatima.

    As to Russia spreading her errors, many aspects of the Communist Manufesto are alive and well even in the USA. Russia’s errors seem particularly tied to the destruction of the family.

  8. Imrahil says:

    Well, whether it is China that annexes NK or anybody else, the present régime has nuclear weapons and will use it against the annexer.

    This was, of course, why Kim wanted the nuclear weapons. They make him unassailable, and he knows it. Problem is, they still actually do make him unassailable.

    That said, I disagree with respect: whatever to be said about other policies and convictions and the like, for precisely this situation one should have had a responsible statesman in the White House, and, by logical consequence, emphatically not the present team. Or the team maybe, but the principle of the U.S. constitution does not allow the President’s Team to vote down the President.

    As one great figure of American conservatism, himself an Austrian, once said: If you are on a ship, the ship’s doctor has suddenly died, and one other person gets appendicitis, whom will he choose for Treatment if only these two are available: a worn-down alcoholic who is a surgeon, or a bright young medically untrained fellow who promises he’ll do his best and has got a book of instructions? (And that was assuming the young fellow is actually going to read the book of instructions.)

  9. VexillaRegis says:

    Imrahil is spot on.

  10. In my experience Koreans (albeit uniformly South Koreans) quietly consider themselves a ‘superior race’ to other Asia-Pacific peoples (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.). I would be surprised to see either North or South Korea peoples go along with this arrangement.

    However, kudos for an ‘out of the box’ suggestion. Much better than war and lost lives.

  11. In a situation with only awful choices, it’s not so bad a solution. Alas, it has the problem of three of the four principals being against it. We would have the least objections.

    – For the Koreans in the south, it would be a bitter pill to swallow.
    – For the present regime in the DPRK (North Korea), it would be impossible, so it would only happen if there were serious instability and/or a coup of some sort.
    – For Red China, it would take a significant shift before this becomes preferable to the status quo. They like the present situation, because it offers real hope of driving the U.S. out of Korea, unraveling our alliances in Asia, and letting China become the east Asia hegemon. Getting to the point where China and South Korea go for this? Not impossible, but a tricky needle to thread.

  12. Chrisc says:

    Fr. Fox, I agree, but only to an extent. I do think that any big solution is bound to be very difficult and probably awful. But, I think there are short term solutions that are good. Namely, if the US can manage to exert some control over N. Korea directly. This eventually could work to everyone’s advantage. But as for now, N. Korea is made sick precisely by the Chinese desire to manipulate it. The movement away from this is good for everyone around, even the Chinese from a spiritual standpoint.

  13. Elizabeth M says:

    Very tricky.
    Koreans want to be united, North and South. Bringing China into No. Korea may be a temporary solution, but given the Chinese govt history they will also want to “unite” Korea – but completely under their rule so they will find a way to gobble up So. Korea too.

    Here’s a different solution: Slowly take our money and major manufacturing out of China. Invest in Mexico. Build there. It will make the environmentalists happy for a couple of reasons. It will reduce our carbon footprint because we won’t be sending massive ships over the Pacific and also won’t be interrupting the migration patterns of ocean life. It will make the people of Mexico happy too. Jobs will equal less crime and less families being separated because they feel they need to come to the US for safety / jobs. I’m not talking a NAFTA type deal either.
    For the USA this will increase the price of some of our goods but we will hopefully stop buying mountains of trashable plastic trinkets. No need to build a wall.
    The Chinese may not like it at first because they have a lot invested in our economic infrastructure and our US companies employee thousands of Chinese workers. There is also our monetary debt to China to consider. They pretty much own us. Somehow we need to pitch it to the Chinese that this move will be good for them too. We need to figure out how to even the books.

    Allow Korea to be one united nation and make sure China leaves it alone. We have to pray that Our Lady will intercede in a miraculous way.

  14. bar3 says:

    I agree with the other comments which say to leave China out of it. We should push for a unified Korea. Also, why would we pay China to feed the North Koreans for 2-3 years? That part of the suggestion does not make sense to me.

  15. Anneliese says:

    I disagree with you, Father. I don’t believe this plan would be very successful. And I believe helping China in this manner would be disastrous. Nothing good came with getting in bed with the devil (communists).

  16. LJC says:

    Interesting proposal, but you seem to have forgotten about the spoiled, chubby kid who calls himself the dear leader. He has his finger on the button for thousands of artillery guns aimed at Seoul, (and now maybe a few nukes.) I can’t think of a peaceful way to make it happen unless spec ops could take him out (along with his top generals) just before China swoops in. I imagine we can take out the nuclear threat pretty easily, but the chances of Seoul not getting shelled seems very low.

  17. iamlucky13 says:

    “Result: China gets buffer state it can control (better than it can now), the West gets a place to invest, and the world is rid of a threat.”

    I don’t think China is interested in a buffer state anymore so much as a regional distraction.

    For that purpose, they don’t need to control North Korea more. I’m skeptical the Kim’s and their accomplices would give up their power, even if promised wealth and protection within China (and they would probably need a lot of protection).

    In fact, China probably doesn’t *want* to control North Korea more. It’s preferable to have the Kim gang causing their own trouble and for China to be able to distance themselves from matters like massacring a few dozen sailors or shelling an sparsely populated island from time to time. These things are great distractions for Chinese border disputes, etc.

    I don’t know what hope there is for a long term solution without much bloodshed and international escalation except for the Kim dynasty to be overthrown by people within North Korea actually interested in the good of their country.

  18. KateD says:

    Okay. Now that that’s settled…

    What about Iran?

    Regarding the listening in—“He was paranoid, but was he paranoid enough?”

  19. Filipino Catholic says:

    For those of us not in power: Prayers, prayers, unceasing prayers, increased use of the St. Michael Prayer, and hopefully the return of Rogations and the votive Masses. Maybe even penitential processions like the one Gregory the Great led. The Church Militant has an entire arsenal of spiritual weapons at its disposal — why should we eschew their use?

    Regarding Korean unification, I have read there may be a slight problem in that regards now — South Korean millennials are not as keen on it as the previous generations. North Koreans may also be reluctant because once the two nations become one, Northerners may end up inadvertently becoming 2nd-class citizens due to their initially disadvantaged position compared to the more affluent South.

  20. TonyO says:

    Here’s a different solution: Slowly take our money and major manufacturing out of China. Invest in Mexico. Build there.

    Elizabeth, I love it. We could also do that one better: build some of them here, too!

    The Chinese may not like it at first

    They don’t have to like it. Our companies, our factories, our building projects.

    Allow Korea to be one united nation and make sure China leaves it alone.

    This, unfortunately, ignores cold hard reality. Other than with nukes, we could not stop China if they decided they really wanted the whole peninsula.

  21. GregB says:

    The North Korean leadership has been playing the part of the crazy uncle for a while now. If and when North Korea becomes a full member of the nuclear club can this act continue? MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) relies on rational actors. We hear that Kim is rational, but he seems to be amping up the volume as of late. Historically how many other nuclear powers run their mouths off as regularly as Kim does? (So far President Trump is mainly responding to Kim’s threats) I would like to see everybody cool it on the overblown rhetoric.

  22. TonyO says:

    Namely, if the US can manage to exert some control over N. Korea directly.

    Chrise, we have no tools capable of the job. Carrot or stick? America has no stomach for a non-nuclear war with N Korea. And as for carrots: what N Korea would want from us, we would not and should not provide. Billious Bill Clinton tried it, and he failed miserably. Hillarious Hillary proved in Libya and Egypt and Syria that she has no more ability at it than Billy-boy did. China can exert influence over Kim because (a) China is right on the border and has an army up to the job not needing to be transported overseas, and (b) Chinese leaders do not have to answer to human rights “leaders” about intensive campaigns and intentionally assassinating leaders, and (c) have no “good guy” image to maintain, rather the opposite. Their threat of a raised stick means a lot in those circumstances.

    We should push for a unified Korea.

    Other than with a revolution in N Korea, that prospect is lower now than it has been for 60 years. And we couldn’t do it in the last 60 years.

    but you seem to have forgotten about the spoiled, chubby kid who calls himself the dear leader. He has his finger on the button for thousands of artillery guns aimed at Seoul,

    LJC, Father Z covered this: first, if China attacks N Korea, of what use are the artillery pointed south at Seoul? Second, we presume that the chubby guy with the nukes will be taken out by Chinese black-ops teams. And besides, even without war, if China simply says to the chubby guy: “we are taking over now, you have nothing to offer of interest to us, you can either get on a plane to Argentina in one hour or end up in our experimental prison in 2 hours prepping for surgery without anesthesia,” you can bet he will think (fast and) hard before trying his hand at beating the Chinese. He might try, but he would not succeed.

    I can’t think of a peaceful way to make it happen unless spec ops could take him out (along with his top generals) just before China swoops in.

    Pretty sure China has spec ops teams for the job. They probably practice a scenario involving Kim and the generals once a month, just to keep on their toes and be prepared.

    I’m skeptical the Kim’s and their accomplices would give up their power,

    iamlucky13, the main feature of this is that if China wants it, it simply doesn’t matter what Kim does or doesn’t want.

  23. Chrisc says:

    TonyO, your points are well made. Since you correctly identify that no carrot will work, we would have to think of what kind of stick could work – not sanctions (Norks don’t care), not war (we have no stomach for it), not diplomacy, not embargos. There seems to be no stick we could actually wield that would work. There’s the possibility of a lack of a stick with only the real threat, but I think no one really believes we will start things with North Korea if they back down.

    This is why the stick isn’t really the issue though, I think its a matter of who is the one using it. Trump’s short-term goal is to drive a wedge between China and the North Koreans. The question is how to do that. Economic pressure didn’t seem to work at first, now Trump is trying military pressure, I’m sure there is something else coming down the line—-probably Trump will try something to be hailed as a diplomatic breakthrough in a month or two, which then leads to further North Korea -China suspicion.

  24. JustaSinner says:

    My prediction? After first B1b strikes—they will be pre-emptive—the Norks light off their artillery and missles into the South. But it quickly fads as Nork generals shoot little fat boy, his wife and other relatives and sue for peace. Biggest bluff in history of the world—the Jung’s 60+ year rule and the 25 year nuke dance. Oh how Clinton and Obama will look like idiots and appeasers and Bush a dolt. Trump’s polling numbers 60%+ approval ratings. CNN will still report that Trump was a meany and the deaths of the Jong family will be his fault.

  25. PatS says:

    After we beat Germany in WWII GeneralPatton wanted to go after the weakened Soviet Union. If we did it is possible that communism would’ve halted is spread and the Russian People may be the greatest Allies of America and and freedom today… Certain it came with risks, but keep in mind how industrious we were back then. Patton clearly saw communis’s evil future.
    Sometimes it’s necessary to continue to fight evil. Maybe this is the point we need to free the NKoreans of their zombie like existence and grant generations into the future the prosperity we gave the SKoreans.
    China controls the fat boy leader and use them as a distraction and a tool. Certainly this whole thing is about the trade wars and control of the Asian seas (and China will never forgive Japan’s aggressions and immoralities it inflicted upon them – and they know we protect Japan and they are terupyonf to change that). It’s not within our ability to force China to calm the child leader.

  26. robtbrown says:

    I disagree with comments above.

    1. China likes NKorea as a buffer state. And China does not want revolution there because it would like create refugees who would head for the Chinese border.

    2. Presidents tend to want to deal with what will produce consequences during their terms of office (Nixon was the FP exception.) Clinton, Bush, and Obama did little but leave the problem to successors. And diplomats only want to talk–I read an article noting that Jimmy Carter’s 1994 diplomacy worked. If it worked, why are we talking about NK’s nuclear situation.

    3. What I would do is what has been talked about for years: China has two nuclear powers to its Southwest–India and Pakistan. It also has Russian nukes to the North.

    Beijing is 550 miles from Seoul and 1200 miles from Japan. Tell China that unless the NK problem is resolved, mid range nukes will be established near Seoul and on the West Coast of Japan. That would make China surrounded by nuclear nations.

    One other point: The Chinese and Koreans have one thing in common: They hate and are scared of Japanese.

  27. paultdale says:

    What the frig is the USA doing in the Far East? What border of he USA abutts onto North Korea? It is quite simple. America go home. You are a bully and we don’t want you around us any more. Go back to your own borders and leave the world in peace. How many countries has North Korea invaded in the last 50/60 years? And the great USA? Is it any wonder that North Korea has developed its weapons when the hegemon bully from across the ocean is threatening them. I thought Trump was about MAGA which means putting America first and dealing with the manifold problems that exist there. No, he wishes to disavow what he promised in his inauguration speech when he said that the US would no longer interfere in other countries seeking regime change. Just another neocon stooge. America go home!

    [Such a measured comment. First, the Korean War is still on hold. Second, remember that part about ICBMs? What part of foreign aid and appeasement since the Clinton administration was bullying?]

  28. Joy65 says:

    “Slowly take our money and major manufacturing out of China.”

    This is a definite. Will make things more expensive here but we need to STOP getting the stuff from China. They make almost everything and that gives them money which gives them power.

    Now about NK, I don’t have solutions but I pray and KNOW that God will provide. Today’s thought “Be NOT Afraid”.

  29. SKAY says:

    robtbrown said”
    “I read an article noting that Jimmy Carter’s 1994 diplomacy worked.”

    I read that also but there is more to this story.
    From an article in the NYPost in January 2016:
    “But in 2002, the North Koreans ’fessed up: They’d begun violating the accord on Day One. Four years later, Pyongyang detonated its first nuke.” Clinton and Carter diplomacy gave them what they wanted.

    “The Chinese and Koreans have one thing in common: They hate and are scared of Japanese.”
    American’s did come to China’s aid when Japan was invading them as the history of the Flying
    Tigers and General Chennault points out.

  30. rcg says:

    If I were to think like the PRC I would say, no.

    – You, USA, may continue with the present path because it debilitates you and maintains a constant risk of damaging your standing in the world.

    – If you insist that we help, we will offer to you:
    — The removal of Kim with minimal violence and disturbance
    — Allow reunification of the peninsula

    – In return we want all of China reunified; specifically Taiwan/ROC to its rightful state, Mainland China.

    This is what I think is likely to happen.

  31. robtbrown says:

    paultdale,

    Take a few minutes to find out what life in N KOREA is like. Then consider that SKOREA is prosperous, thanks to the US. Do you think that SKOREA should be like N KOREA.

    Bullying? What do you think of the US bullying Nazi Germany? Or Japan during the same war?

  32. robtbrown says:

    SKay,

    Of course, they were violating it. They were buying time with meetings and agreements until they had a nuke.

    Jimmy Carter is a self righteous liberal, AKA fool. I had hoped that following his 1980 defeat, we would no longer be plagued by his vacuous incompetence, but no such luck. Like termites he keeps coming back.

  33. paultdale says:

    And still what has that to do with the USA? You have no right to strut around the world stage emulating the Anglo empire and being the world policeman. You are not wanted. Everyone knows that US support comes with Zionist imposed immoral programs. Contraception, abortion, pornography as a means of social control. That is the religion of Americanism so decried by Leo XIII.

    It is not your God given right to bestow your prosperity around the world. Period.

    And the USA only came into WW2 when they could see that the nazis were getting a hiding from the Soviet forces. They got Western Europe and maintained their presence ever since. Germany is basically US occupied territory. As is most of Europe.

    Oh the joys of US occupation of Japan. Where you were the first nation on earth that dropped the atomic bomb. Even though the Japanese were seeking peace terms. Your nation dropped it on the most populous Christian cities in Japan. so you built military bases and brought the country under US dominion. Oh and imposed your American religion on the people.
    The truly great thing to do would be for America to go home.

  34. paultdale says:

    Father.

    I think that in my reply to rotbrown I have answered your points.

    The point about ICBMs is that North Korea doesn’t have the capacity to strike the US mainland. Russia has said as much. Despite what your press might say the Russians have stated that their tests have been at an intermediate level and that NK doesn’t have nuclear capabilities to launch a missile. So what is going on here? Is this one of Trump’s vaunted opening deals with China and Russia to secure something from them? His rhetoric is truly that of a loud mouth bully. The trouble is the world ain’t afraid any more.

  35. SKAY says:

    paultdale
    For the record, exactly what country are you speaking for?

  36. paultdale says:

    I m British and fully understand the shortcomings of the British Empire which has devolved into the AngloAmerican Empire

  37. Semper Gumby says:

    paultdale: Well, this is interesting. Almost every sentence in your three comments is either: 1) incorrect, 2) under the influence of Russian propaganda, 3) wandered in from an alternate universe, or 4) belligerently anti-US or anti-Israel.

    A lot of ground is to be covered here.

    Let’s start with your, it looks like, third comment of 2:36 pm, the British Empire. Below is an anecdote. It is simply food for thought about the positives of Western expansion, to contrast with the negatives.

    Here is British Gen. Sir Charles Napier in 19th-century India addressing Hindus who complained that Gen. Napier was interfering with their custom of suttee- burning widows alive on their dead husband’s funeral pyre.

    Gen. Napier:

    “Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.”

    Wallowing in the negatives of the historical record, paultdale, can result in melancholy, acedia, defeatism, timidity, appeasement, and inaction- producing an even more dangerous situation down the road and an even greater potential loss of life. One can reasonably argue that this type of mindset was widespread in many Western governments since 2009, and brought us here today, to the subject of this post, in 2017. Cheers.

  38. SKAY says:

    Thank you for answering my question paultdale.
    Since you are British I know you do understand what political parties are all about. Abortion, contraception and pornography are not “Americanism” but it is the American left that generally supports these things and usually contributes to the Democrat Party in this country.(Hollywood comes to mind) The former administration strongly supported and funded abortion here and abroad as long as they were in power. Of course there are just as many on the other side who do not support these things and are trying very hard to change many of the policies that were put in place.

    You said “The point about ICBMs is that North Korea doesn’t have the capacity to strike the US mainland.”

    He has not just threatened the US mainland. There are areas much closer that he has threatened.
    Guam is just one. The Communist North would love to move into South Korea and exploit what they have achieved. As Father Z said, the Korean War is still on hold.
    Russia is interested in what benefits them. Trust by verify as Reagan said when dealing with the
    Soviet Union.

  39. gdweber says:

    Seriously, Father Z.? Would you also suggest giving the eastern half of Poland to Russia? Or giving Wisconsin to Canada? Korea has been bullied by powerful neighbors — Japanese, Chinese, and occasionally others — for hundreds of years. All Koreans, northern and southern, have a legitimate aspiration to see their country unified. The only just solutions are those that bring unity and freedom to the Korean people on both sides of the DMZ.

    If we limit our thinking to the action of natural causes, then allowing the Kim regime to fall by the influx of information may be the best solution. See Tom Malinowski’s “How to Take Down Kim Jong Un” ( http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/24/how-to-take-down-kim-jong-un-215411 ). But this approach will require our patience and fortitude. We should bear in mind that the Kim regime has always liked to bark, and now it likes to bare its new Nuclear Big Teeth; but it is far more “rational” than it appears to be (it is in their interest to _appear_ irrational, as it is perhaps also in President Trump’s interest to some extent to appear irrational to some people, e.g., to Kim Jong Un), therefore susceptible to deterrence, and so is unlikely to bite (at least with the Big Teeth) unless it is first bitten.

    On the more imaginative side, the King of South Korea could marry a Northern woman. A marriage alliance is always a good idea! The 2012 South Korean drama “The King 2 Hearts” explores this theme. ( https://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+king+2+hearts%22 ) This drama also highlights the fact, well known to all Koreans, that their powerful neighbors really have a disinterest in seeing a unified Korea.

    But we readers of your blog are blessed not to be limited to natural causes and human imagination! So we should certainly also pray for the peace, security, freedom, unity, and the light of the Gospel for the Korean people. Begin everything with prayer!

    Hornblower and rcg have made good observations. Even a few of paultdale’s comments are right.

    JustaSinner: It’s the Kim family, not the Jung or Jong family.

  40. traditionalcatholicman says:

    I cannot know the mind of God, but based on what Our Blessed Mother has told us in Fatima in Portugal, Cuapa in Nicaragua, Akita in Japan, I’m pretty sure that even if North Korea can be calmed we will just face some great scourge (WWIII) due to another place as the ultimate problem is this generation’s sinfulness and refusal to repent. Quite simply, God’s wrath will soon come upon us (at least according to Our Blessed Mother) unless we very quickly repent and do much penance, and I do not foresee that happening any time soon.

  41. Semper Gumby says:

    paultdale: As far as your “Japanese seeking peace terms” comment, you seem unaware of the military officer coup plot against the Emperor. Also, the actual order of events in Dec. 1941 was: Pearl Harbor, U.S. Declaration against Japan, Hitler’s Declaration against the U.S., U.S Declaration against Nazi Germany.

    You complain about U.S. military bases built in Japan. It would have been inappropriate and impractical to house U.S. troops in tens of thousands of private homes, or anchored offshore for years on troopships. The Soviets also declared war on Japan in August 1945, U.S. and Allied troops based in Japan set a limit on the Soviet advance. As did U.S. and Allied troops based in central Europe set a limit on Soviet expansion westward.

    Furthermore, in Dec. 1941 the Germans were not getting a “hiding” from the Soviets. The German Army Group Center was at the suburbs of Moscow, Zhukov was beginning a counterattack with Siberian troops, but the temporary respite the Soviets gained in the winter of 1941-2 was lost in the 1942 German offensive.

    Also, Stalin bears equal responsibility with Hitler for beginning WWII in Europe, see Poland and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Agreement. In September 1939 Hitler invaded Poland from the west, Stalin invaded Poland from the east. Karol Wotyjla was caught in the middle. Also, Stalin whined to Churchill and Roosevelt about opening a “Second Front” until, if I recall, at least the Battle of Kursk in July 1943. A lot of Allied sailors lost their lives in the North Atlantic because of German U-Boats while running supplies to Murmansk and the ungrateful Soviets.

    As for first use of nuclear weapons, better the U.S. than the Russians, Germans, or Japanese. (No usage ever would be great, but that is not the world we live in).

    You seem agitated about the U.S “strutting around the world stage.” That is merely a tired trope of the Left and it would probably ease your mind not to think in those terms. Only you can answer if your agitation about “strutting” and first use of nuclear weapons is actually motivated by personal deep-seated envy. I am not trying to be provocative here, this curious phenomenon is a real problem for some on the Left.

    Speaking of the Left, you advance Russian propaganda on many occasions. Very apparent. Very telling. See last weeks post here titled “Putin v Francis – Fake News” and my rebuttals to moon1234 and marilenafromexsultet who also, knowingly or unknowingly, parroted Putin’s propaganda. An amiable tip: note that my rebuttals to those two could have been far longer.

    To wrap this up, paultdale, reflect on the tone of your comments, and your curious phrases involving “Zionism” and “America Go Home.” Overall, it is unclear whether you are trying to bring readers ’round to your position, or simply bullying. Perhaps it’s a mix of both. Cheers.

  42. Mommy6 says:

    Finally!! Someone said it!!

  43. jflare says:

    paultdale: If you think American should go home, I would think you would be seeking to see the British Commonwealth of Nations reduced to simply the UK, or even to England. Quickly checking Wikipedia, said Commonwealth still includes India, Australia, and others.
    Then too, if you consider it Kim Jong Un’s threats about ICBMs to be exaggerated, would you be willing to risk Calcutta, New Delhi, Perth, or Sidney? If he can hit Guam, he can probably hit those too. All he needs is some reason/excuse to get pissed at all of you British.

    Fr Z, I see what you mean, but I think it debatable whether that would work. If nothing else, if China were to agree to take over North Korea, I have a tough time believing that some of them would not look at the South and start making plans.
    Seoul would be an awfully tasty and tempting morsel if they have possession of Pyongyang.

    Given that the real worry seems to be about ICBMs, I should think airstrikes would be the least bad of several options. If we carpet bomb artillery sites near the border with B-1s, we dramatically reduce North Korea’s ability to retaliate against Seoul. Concurrently, we bomb every known or suspected ICBM site or nuclear research facility with B-2s. With this, we limit casualties, set back the North Korean ambitions by at least a decade, and give both the North Koreans and the Chinese something to ponder.

    We also allow the Japanese to breath slightly easier. I don’t think they would be any too eager for China to be any closer to their islands than present.

  44. Imrahil says:

    As for what gdweber said,

    Would you also suggest giving the eastern half of Poland to Russia?

    That has, of course, actually happened in history. Poland was compensated in the West of course.

  45. Imrahil says:

    Dear paultdale, among other things,

    1. your use of the term “Americanism” is incorrect. “Americanism”, as condemned, means a less-but-still heretical sort of modernism which arguably did not largely exist at all at the time it was condemned, but did appear later (“whence we see that one must not paint the Devil on the wall”, Kuehnelt-Leddihn). In any case, it has nothing to do with the chimera of a, quote, “Zionist-influenced immoral programs of contraception, abortion, pornography as a means of social control”.

    2. Speaking of that, the government of Israel has no driving rôle in these programs in so far as they exist at all. (There may be programs to legalize abortion; there are none to actually make People Abort their children, which even the pro-choicers know to be a ghastly thing. There are no programs to distribute pornography either.) And – and please forgive me to put it so bluntly –

    one of the bigger cities next to where I live is called Nuremberg. There about seventy years ago, the gibbet’s trapdoor opened under the feet of a man whose crime was to have put phrases like that into a newspaper. And his punishment was a just punishment.

    3. The reason why the US went into WW2 is quite simple. It’s because Germany declared war on them. President Roosevelt was convinced that the Nazi régime needed to disappear, but he could not have convinced his Americans to war with Germany at the very moment when they were fighting a war with Japan (note that Japan was not in war with Russia until August 1945 or so). But Hitler – according to Sebastian Haffner after he had concluded the war could no longer be won, so it did not matter anyway – did this massive blunder and declared war on America.

    4. Still, it was not that the U. S. etc. armies had nothing to do in the European Theater. The slow advance of the Russians on the Eastern front gained a lot of speed once separate fronts were opened in Italy, Northern France, and Southern France.

  46. paultdale says:

    And yet you have not given one answer to my post with laying out a position. Just a quote from a titled Brit who like Americans today think that they are God’s chosen people. It doesn’t justify the takeover of countries and resources and then judge them by our laws. It is not the way to go to just impose our way of life. British/American does not equate to Catholic. It is the great missionaries who brought Catholicism to India not the British Empire.

  47. un-ionized says:

    It should be noted that Zionism is more than just to be pro-Israel.

  48. paultdale says:

    And just give me the positives of fire and fury again? The indespensable nation firing off nuclear weapons again? Because your press are erroneously saying that you are under threat from a much smaller nation thousands of miles away? Is that how civilised nations behave?

  49. robtbrown says:

    paultdale says:

    I m British and fully understand the shortcomings of the British Empire which has devolved into the AngloAmerican Empire

    Understanding the shortcomings of the American Empire hasn’t prevented you from using its most sophisticated invention. That’s more than a bit hypocritical.

  50. paultdale says:

    Oh and don’t you like to parrot your vaunted press and say that it is all Russian propaganda. It is the Chinese who have the greatest interest in this because they have a border and the Russians have an interest because it is close to their eastern seaboard. The North Koreans are understandably defensive because they lost a million citizens in the Korean War. Then they see the THAAD missiles Uncle Sam is putting in. They have every right to fear the US and their quest for nuclear weapons makes them know that the US will fear them. Countries that didn’t have nuclear weapons – Yugoslavia, Iraq and Lybia – know to their cost what NATO is capable of.

  51. paultdale says:

    Simples. Don’t threaten North Korea. Don’t put THAAD missiles in South Korea. Don’t carry out massive battle manoeuvres in the south. In fact go back home and look after your own people.

  52. JustaSinner says:

    Wow, I thought I was reading Fr. Z’s blog, instead I got onto HuffPo’s comment sections with paultdale pedantic oral diarrhea!
    1. Matters that the Norks STILL DON’T have an ICBM. We have more options this way. Once they do, we’re stuck with lil fat boy and his nukes capable of striking the US. The Russians and Americans played nice due to MAD; Kim Jung Un has demonstrated repeatedly he doesn’t understand it and won’t.
    2. Another British wanker spreading their lack of knowledge—obviously a public school boy!—of world affairs and history. The faded glory of Britannia still makes them butt hurt; even though the likes of paulie professes overwise.
    3. Civilian deaths due to invasion of mainland Japan was estimated at 3-5 million—this is the Imperial Japanese Command’s OWN FIGURES! Not US, not British, heck, not even the Russians who were going to invade. That was what the Japanese expected. Two nukes and 80,000 dead meant MILLIONS of humans were spared; millions on ALL SIDES. A bit of history for you Paulie…the Pentagon was built as a VA hospital for the many millions of returning wounded from the expected Japanese Mainland Invasion.
    4. Who is bullying whom? Which country has 100,000 artillery pieces and rockets aimed at another country; on standby so that they can be fired in minutes? Who has fired repeated artillery salvos onto their neighbors civilian controlled islands; killing many of said civilians? Who ordered their guards to attack and kill three service personnel that were trimming some trees? And which country’s leader ordered the killing of his half-brother on foreign soil? Aunts? Uncles? Other relatives with death by dog and death by 60 mm mortars?
    5. So now defensive systems—like THAAD—are offensive? I haven’t heard this pabulum and tripe since the former Soviet Union’s TASS news service was in operation. In fact, the only two places I hear it now are Al-Jazeera and the left-wing British Dailies, and both have circulation figures on par with The Daily Shows youtube viewership!
    6. Like the Freeze Now morons in the 1980s, I will pray for the souls of the likes of paulie…mis-informed, mistaken, and miserable.

  53. paultdale says:

    So you speak tropes of the right wing indoctrination. American exceptionalism. You fear and hate Putin because you are blinded by the fact that he strides the world like a Bismark. He is head and shoulders above any other world leader. Have you heard him speak. I watched him decimate the BBC World correspondent John Simpson (no doubt an MI6 plant) and made him look stupid. And his crime is he won’t bow to the New World Order. He puts Russia first. And he is the only world leader who goes to Midnight Mass in the Orthodox faith. In fact he is the most Catholic (sic) of all world leaders. Discuss

  54. SKAY says:

    Are you Russian Othhodox paultdale?

  55. Semper Gumby says:

    Ah, another Manifesto, this one in five parts, by paultdale. I sincerely thank you for providing comic relief to my day. I think my favorite line is:

    “You fear and hate Putin because you are blinded by the fact that he strides the world like a Bismark. He is head and shoulders above any other world leader.”

    That doesn’t quite make sense, but I see where you’re going with that.

    (By the way, you might not want to link Putin to Bismarck. Bismarck launched the 19th century anti-Catholic “Kulturkampf.” Also, Hitler’s battleship “Bismarck” had a good run in the North Atlantic briefly, but was sunk by the British Navy. God Save the Queen!)

    Now here’s something different. The YouTube link is not pasting here. Please do a websearch on “Operation Ghost Stories.” This was a FBI operation that arrested a Russian spy ring operating in the U.S. in 2010. Both YouTube and the FBI site have actual surveillance videos of Putin’s spies going about their clandestine business, before the Yankee Imperialist Running Dogs sent them packing.

    Each video clip is a few minutes long. Video 1 is a cafe meeting. Videos 4 and 7 are shorter, under a minute each. 4 is the recovery of a “dead drop,” a package obscured by shrubbery next to a tree. 7 (and I think Video 8) is a “brush pass” in which a Russian spy brushes past a Russian UN official in a subway or train station stairwell to exchange a package.

    Video 10 is in Arlington Virginia, just across the Potomac from Washington DC, and shows a Russian spy either picking up or placing a package underneath a bridge in a park. Video 2 is a synchronized video showing the female spy from Video 1 inside a department store, while a Russian diplomat is outside the store nearby. The two were communicating via electronic devices and apparently did not meet face to face.

    Anyway, paultdale, have a pleasant day.

  56. PTK_70 says:

    @paultdale…..Believe me, I’m not trying to antagonize you; but I do want to suggest that the situation is not “simply” resolved by the U.S.A. leaving east Asia to its own devices. For one thing, should the U.S. retract the so-called nuclear umbrella, it is easy to imagine that the Japanese, not to mention the South Koreans, will quickly be in possession of a nuclear arsenal of their own. This surely is undesirable. Having considered many of the comments posted to this point, I wish to commend Fr. Z for intrepidly putting forward a proposal that, for all the opposition** it may face, has at least this in its favor: it gets the region out of the present cul-de-sac.

    **Opposition may include those with an overwrought sense of what constitutes “justice” on the world stage.

  57. robtbrown says:

    paultdale,

    You’re wrong about why the US entered WWII. US citizens wanted no part of war, but FDR had wanted to enter for some time. And Churchill knew that England could only hold out for so long.

    The US entered because of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. FDR the opportunist responded by fighting the Germans in North Africa, against the advice of Gen Marshall.

    Keeping the American military at home? That’s not a bad idea, but Brits and Germans both need to understand that the only reason they have had their national health care systems is that their defense bills have been little–the US has been the sugar daddy who protected their countries.

    And then there’s the matter that twice in the last century the US was dragged into European wars.

  58. robtbrown says:

    paultdale says,

    Oh and don’t you like to parrot your vaunted press and say that it is all Russian propaganda. It is the Chinese who have the greatest interest in this because they have a border and the Russians have an interest because it is close to their eastern seaboard. The North Koreans are understandably defensive because they lost a million citizens in the Korean War.

    The Korean War was started by the North Koreans, who moved South, trying to take SKorean.

    BTW, I have Ukrainian friends who are not so enthusiastic about Putin as you are.

  59. robtbrown says:

    Paultdale says

    Oh the joys of US occupation of Japan. Where you were the first nation on earth that dropped the atomic bomb. Even though the Japanese were seeking peace terms. Your nation dropped it on the most populous Christian cities in Japan. so you built military bases and brought the country under US dominion. Oh and imposed your American religion on the people.

    The Japanese were seeking to leave the same clowns in power who had started the war in the Pacific–so Unconditional surrender was demanded by the US. The battles at Iwo Jima and the other islands were a blood bath. Dropping the bombs saved American lives. If the bomb had been dropped sooner, American marines who died in the battles on the islands would have lived.

    And you seem to be unware that the US had been firebombing Tokyo for a month. If memory serves, more people died in the Tokyo raids than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    So you would have preferred that the Shintoism continue in Japan? The same religion that produced the Bataan Death March?

  60. paultdale says:

    To robtbrown

    https://athanasiuscm.org/2016/06/01/interview-029-the-mike-church-show-on-the-evil-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/

    Christianity spread not by the sword but by preaching and living the word of Christ. Not by an American absolutism that says Our way is best.

    In Domino

  61. paultdale says:

    To robtbrown
    Bully for you, you followed what you and the British did in WWII by firebombing German cities indiscriminately. If the US and British had not been the victors then Churchill would have been hanged in the equivalent of The Hague. The victors always write history but it rarely is the truth. You followed it up in Korea and Vietnam, indiscriminate bombing of civilians, where you got your arses whipped, and still do it today in Iraq and Syria. [B as in B. S as in S.] You never learn.

    In Domino

    [You’ve been pretty insulting. I’ll let this (you) stumble along for a bit, but my patience is not unending.]

  62. paultdale says:

    At Robtbrown

    The Korean War was started by the North Koreans, who moved South, trying to take SKorean.
    BTW, I have Ukrainian friends who are not so enthusiastic about Putin as you are.

    So now you turn to that failed state courtesy of Mama Kagan and her $5bn cookies. A US/EU coup d’état aimed at Russia. Classic US activities at destabilising states that you don’t like. It was so blatant that it was embarrassing. And still Putin outfoxed you: in a democratic vote Crimea returned to Holy Mother Russia, totally stopping the US forces from claiming Sebastopol. That really hurt. When EU troops were about to be massacred in the Debaltsavo (sp) massacre in Ukraine by Novorussian forces, Merkel, Holland and Poroschenko had to eat dirt and sign the Minsk II Memorandum which holds Ukraine’s toes to the conditions of the only agreement binding. Ukraine, now there is a nation of nazis. Strange is it not that the US and EU should be supporting them. Especially the zionists.

  63. paultdale says:

    At robtbrown

    paultdale,

    You’re wrong about why the US entered WWII. US citizens wanted no part of war, but FDR had wanted to enter for some time. And Churchill knew that England could only hold out for so long.

    The US entered because of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. FDR the opportunist responded by fighting the Germans in North Africa, against the advice of Gen Marshall.

    Keeping the American military at home? That’s not a bad idea, but Brits and Germans both need to understand that the only reason they have had their national health care systems is that their defense bills have been little–the US has been the sugar daddy who protected their countries.

    And then there’s the matter that twice in the last century the US was dragged into European wars.

    Pearl Harbour was a classic False Flag to persuade the American public to vote for war. You came willingly into those wars and cherry picked the spoils. It was classic American imperialism. Europe has been under US occupation ever since. The EU was designed by the US to keep the Europeans subservient. Look at the sanctions on Russia. They hurt the Europeans far more than America but those EU politicians vote for them every time. The US says jump, the EU says how high.

  64. paultdale says:

    @ PTK_70

    @paultdale…..Believe me, I’m not trying to antagonize you; but I do want to suggest that the situation is not “simply” resolved by the U.S.A. leaving east Asia to its own devices. For one thing, should the U.S. retract the so-called nuclear umbrella, it is easy to imagine that the Japanese, not to mention the South Koreans, will quickly be in possession of a nuclear arsenal of their own. This surely is undesirable. Having considered many of the comments posted to this point, I wish to commend Fr. Z for intrepidly putting forward a proposal that, for all the opposition** it may face, has at least this in its favor: it gets the region out of the present cul-de-sac.

    **Opposition may include those with an overwrought sense of what constitutes “justice” on the world stage.

    I agree but in this case Uncle Sam is the principal antagonist here. North Korea suffered a million deaths of its citizens during the Korean War. How would the US feel if that had happened to them?

  65. paultdale says:

    At Semper Gumby says:
    14 August 2017 at 1:21 PM

    Wow. You mean the Russians actually spy on you. You don’t say! And Youtube has evidence of it! Waytogo! And you say I give light relief. It might surprise you to learn that countries have been spying on each other for thousands of years. So the fact that Russia spies on the US makes Putin a demon. Keep taking the coco pops!

  66. paultdale says:

    SKAY says:
    14 August 2017 at 1:08 PM

    No I am a Traditional Roman Catholic.

  67. Imrahil says:

    Dear robtbrown,

    That’s not a bad idea, but Brits and Germans both need to understand that the only reason they have had their national health care systems is that their defense bills have been little

    Much as I am, of course, on your side in this debate, this specific Point is not true because whether we like this sort of health care system or not, the Germans at any rate are having it since Bismarck, which hence includes when we had to pay a lot of defense bills and built up, with all due regret to the way it was put to use, certainly an armed force to be reckoned with.

  68. paultdale says:

    At JustaSinner says:
    14 August 2017 at 11:29 AM

    Thanks for the ad hominum baseless attack which is more indicative of your education and background than mine. If one cannot debate harmoniously without rancour and base accusations, especially on a blog such as this, then let’s leave it there. I am not a public school educated toff. I am not a liberal who reads left wing newspapers. I neither trust the BBC nor any UK broadcasters. But don’t let that worry your characterisation of me.

    In Domino

  69. Imrahil says:

    Dear paultdale,

    it is quite right that President Roosevelt wanted to enter the war for some time, and that was because he saw the need (and rightly so) to finish off the Nazi regime. However, he didn’t enter; the Japanese attacked*. And with the Japanese attack to deal with, he couldn’t have persuaded the American voters to take the further burden of a war against Germany, if not Hitler had done him the favor of declaring war against the US.

    [* The oft debated question whether there was any American intelligence of this attack before it happened is entirely immaterial to the debate here. It is only interesting for the question whether not America should have gone to a preventive war in the strict sense of the term instead of the defensive one she did go to – but there was no possibility for her to “stay out” if you put it if the Japanese had set their mind on attacking her.]

  70. paultdale says:

    Imrahil says:
    14 August 2017 at 5:12 AM
    I find your comment the most erudite and hardest to contend.
    1.
    I post the link on Americanism http://catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/americanism/
    I submit that because of the masonic principles that the USA is founded on, and not Catholic Social Teaching, that the protestants and others promoted the policy of the separation of Church and State. This was being accepted by Catholic prelates in America. This work was prescient because it became enshrined in Vatican II and thereby the Catholic Faith was demoted in the public square. A policy promoted by Cardinal Ratzinger. The subsequent movement saw the State reign supreme and enforce its will on society: contraception, abortion, homosexual marriage, rampant pornography. The effect of the separation of Church and State, I contend allowed the heinous policies to take hold in the US. Why is it that the minority with 2% of the population has so much control over the Supreme Court? Read Culture Wars by E Michael Jones, a brilliant American Catholic, who documents this far better than I can convey here. Abortion was promoted in the New York Courts by Jews before being enshrined in your Supreme Court. The Talmudic Jew does not hold the same doctrine as Catholics on the right-to-life from conception to death. They only see life beginning at birth. Once again at Culture Wars and elsewhere the predominant ethnos involved in pornography are Jews.

    Time is late and I must arise in 5 1/2 hours. I will try and respond to your other points later.

    In Domino

    Paul

  71. Semper Gumby says:

    paultdale: Your use of usernames is a welcome improvement.

    Ask yourself, paultdale, if you wish to continue presenting yourself in the manner in which you have done during the last several days. Your first comment began with “What the frig…” and it ended with “America Go Home!” As you have seen, that wasn’t a persuasive argument.

    All is not lost, however.

    You wrote in one of your comments:

    “…Russia has said as much. Despite what your press might say the Russians have stated…”

    And that is probably the heart of the problem here.

    You may want to review your comments. Note the hostility and even bullying, note the strawmen and slogans, note the assertions that are presented as facts, note the stream-of-consciousness writing style.

    Then, ask yourself if loyalty to the Russian media is in the best interests of your spiritual and intellectual health. Cheers.

  72. robtbrown says:

    Imrahil,

    Yeah, I know that Bismarck is considered the father of the welfare state.

    I doubt, however, that it was functioning in the late 40’s. Further, the costs of health care in, say, 1960 are minimal compared to now. How many MRI’s, any hip replacements and coronary bypass surgeries were there 50 years ago? Zip. And the demographic changes have exacerbated the cost per payee.

    Anyway, the point is that the cost of national health systems was relatively low in 1960 compared to 2017.

  73. jflare says:

    “indiscriminate bombing of civilians”

    I think it past time that such rubbish should be refuted. Neither the British nor the Americans committed “indiscriminate” bombing of anyone. Learning about what they did, and why, we learn that both British and American air forces conducted strategic bombing raids against German cities during World War II. Initially such raids went against manufacturing facilities, military installations, fuel storage facilities, and the like. Later in the war, raids extended to civilian areas with an eye toward provoking the German populace to compel German (Nazi) leadership to end the war. To do so sooner, not later, the better to minimize casualties. Bombings on Japan had much the same intent, as did bombing over Vietnam.
    Most of the jabber that I hear about “indiscriminate” bombing assumes that someone ran a bombing raid with no particular target in mind, almost as if forces had conducted bombing raids for the fun of it. Given the danger the aircrews were in every time they flew, we can rest assured they weren’t there for jollies. Then too, much of the noise I hear about alleged atrocities associated with air warfare assumes that warfighting will always be limited to battlefields. I think if one bothers to research history well, you’ll find that such has rarely been the case.

  74. paultdale says:

    At Semper Gumby says:
    14 August 2017 at 6:26 PM

    So what you object to is my debating style and called it bullying. For a nation where political discourse is amongst the most forthright in the world you object to my style. I find that quite amusing. But I have submitted arguments and you assume that I only get them from Russian sources. But my sources are catholic in nature and not just from Russia. In your own country there are any independent sources – the unz review, thesaker, jimstone – who hold independent views – it is the media in your country, and mine I might add, who have held sway to the anti God, cultural marxist agenda which has lead your country and the west to perpetual war; and for what reason, but profit. It is the reason that the world wars were manufactured, to keep the western political and economic order in sway.
    You accuse me of being in sway to the Russian media, which, in some way manifests a fear of Russia on your part. That is precisely the effect that your media wish to convey, fear. The bogeyman is always Russia. But you fall into the trap that was started by Obama of Russians interfering in your election, with not a scintilla of evidence; rather similar to the propaganda of Russians invading Ukraine, once again with no evidence. And it may even lead to Trump being impeached. If it wasn’t so serious it would be incredibly funny. What I admire about Russia are the Catholic prophecies that surround her. The consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, still not achieved, but will be when the Holy Father carries out the request of the Queen of Heaven. Then Holy Mother Russia will be converted to the Catholic faith, and she will be amongst the most fervent catholic countries in the world. It is even read in Russian prophecy and in Tolstoy and Dostoevsky’s works. This country that had her soul ripped out of her by the deprivations of Communism; a profoundly jewish atheistic movement which saw maybe 10-20 million Orthodox Russians and Ukrainians murdered. A country that was brought to its knees after the fall of Communism. Now a country that has clawed herself back to respectability and self worth with virtually zero debt. I believe that the Mother of God, in the absence of Her son’s Church respecting Her wishes, is working to prepare for the conversion of this great nation. And you question my loyalty? My loyalty is only to Jesus Christ, my king, my God: the Way the Truth and the Life. Amen

    In Domino

  75. Semper Gumby says:

    paultdale: I stand by my comment.

    In your last several comments you have replaced “Zionists” with “Jews.” Your references to either are always negative. You may want to reflect on that.

    As for your claim that “Russia has clawed her way back to respectability,” then you have a seriously distorted view of respectability. Once again, I recommend you see the recent post “Putin v Francis – Fake News” and my rebuttals to moon1234 and marilenafromexsultet who also, knowingly or unknowingly, parroted Putin’s propaganda.

    Your claim several days ago that “Putin is the most Catholic of all world leaders” is seriously distorted.

    You would benefit by reflecting on the opinions you hold.

  76. I think our work is done.