Two attackers take hostages in French church, slit priest’s throat

The Religion of Peace strikes again in Northern France.

This sounds much like odium fidei.

The murderers shouted “Daesh!”

From AP:

Two attackers take hostages in French church, slit priest’s throat before being shot dead by police

PARIS — Two attackers seized hostages Tuesday in a church near the Normandy city of Rouen, killing a priest by slitting his throat before being shot and killed by police, French officials said.

Another person inside the church was seriously injured and is hovering between life and death, Interior Ministry spokesman Pierre-Henry Brandet said.

Police managed to rescue three people from the church in the small northwestern town of Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray, Brandet said. The hostage-taking occurred during morning Mass, he told reporters.

Tuesday’s slaying inside a church “is obviously a drama for the Catholic community, for the Christian community,” Brandet told reporters. Brandet, speaking on BFM TV, said the RAID special intervention force was searching the church and its perimeter for possible explosives and terrorism investigators had been summoned.

The identities of the attackers and motive for the attack are unclear, according to a security official, who was not authorized to be publicly named.

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant has claimed responsibility for the attack. The claim came in a statement published Tuesday by the ISIL-affiliated Aamaq news agency.

It said the attack near the Normandy city of Rouen was carried out by “two soldiers of the Islamic State.”

It added the attack was in response to its calls to target countries of the U.S.-led coalition which is fighting ISIL.

French President Francois Hollande called the attack a “vile terrorist attack” and said it’s another more sign that France is at war with ISIL.

“We must lead this war with all our means,” he said in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray. Hollande expressed support for all France’s Catholics but said the attack targets “all the French.”


About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Si vis pacem para bellum!, The Coming Storm, The future and our choices, The Religion of Peace and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.


  1. Ned Wall says:

    Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle….

  2. Fr. Kelly says:

    May the soul of Fr. Hamel and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace.

  3. gaudete says:

    Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine,
    et lux perpetua luceat ei.
    Requiescat in pace. Amen.

    In paradisum deducant te Angeli;
    in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres,
    et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Ierusalem. Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cum Lazaro quondam paupere æternam habeas requiem.

  4. jfk03 says:

    Eternal Memory! And a reminder for all of us to GO TO CONFESSION!

  5. bethv says:

    My heart aches for all those who are suffering such horrid fates at the hands of terrorists. And yet, this past Sunday 7/24, with all that is happening in the world, the new rector at Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, appointed by Archbishop Cupich, has the congregation sit during the Gospel so he can deliver it in three segments. I call it “The Gospel – Interrupted” After a short while it became apparent that Father was basically upstaging the Gospel by using the majority of his “homily” to tell jokes. Of course, the crowd loved it as the cathedral burst into laughter. Not one word of compassion or comfort or even awareness of the times, and certainly no attempt to show reverence towards God’s Word. It was a sad display. I am sure most left Mass (sizable group is always from out of town or out of state) talking about the “funny priest” and repeating and repeating his jokes, with no inkling or care about any of it having anything to do with God. This priest describes himself as a “Vatican II priest”. Seems so, unfortunately.

  6. JeffLiss says:

    Oh, it’s odium fidei all right, but it’s not Muslim hatred of the faith that will destroy France. It’s the socialist, secular state’s hatred that will be its undoing. Were Hollande to march into Notre Dame de Paris, get on his knees, publicly reconsecrate France to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and beg the intercession of St. Michael and St. Joan of Arc for the defense of the nation, I don’t think ISIS would have a prayer (so to speak). That won’t happen — because of the socialist/secularist state, not the Jihadis in their midst.

    As it stands, France has but one hope, and it resides in the monasteries and abbeys. It was The Brothers Karamazov that put me onto this line of thinking:

    Meanwhile, in their solitude they keep the image of Christ fair and undistorted, in the purity of God’s truth, from the time of the ancient fathers, apostles, and martyrs, and when the need arises they will reveal it to the wavering truth of the world.

    When the need arises. It has an almost Arthurian quality to it — as though, when civilization is in its darkest hour the gates of monasteries and abbeys, priories and convents will open and bring forth the once and future Gospel — whole and unblemished — to vanquish the darkness by the light of truth, the Light of Christ.

  7. greenlight says:

    What would a…muscular response from a pope potentially sound like? The thought of calling for a crusade of some sort seems unthinkable, but how far could a pope go and be within the bounds of acceptable teaching?

  8. meunke says:

    Another reason why I will CCW every day, even at Mass.

    Fr. Hamel, please pray for me now that you have reached eternal life.

  9. JohnNYC says:

    Sanctae martyres Nunilo et Alodia, orate pro nobis!

  10. comedyeye says:

    The motive for the attack is unclear? Seriously?

  11. JustaSinner says:

    Is it a mortal sin if I was there and laid out the two islamo-fascists with my 9mm Berretta px-4 Storm loaded with Israeli Military Industries 162 grain FMJ-BTs?

    [It would depend on a number of factors, such as your intention. Of course in such a situation, there are psychological factors of fear, physiological factors of stress, etc. That said, if you are acting in both self-defense and defense of others, having first tried to prepare yourself prudently, etc., I think probably not. It is always objectively bad to take a human life, but there are subjective factors which change the level of guilt one has for doing so. That said: 162 gr? Heavy!]

  12. cowboyengineer says:

    Get a CHL and carry everywhere, everyday.

  13. JamesM says:

    It is unfortunately just an example of the sort of thing that Christians in the Middle East experience on a regular basis. I think it is worth looking at the words of the Archbishop of Mosul in 2014.

    “You must consider again our reality in the Middle East, because you are welcoming in your countries an ever growing number of Muslims. Also you are in danger. You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles. You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal. Your values are not their values. If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home.”

    We should look at this as another reminder to ourselves of the need for frequent confession. None of us know the hour of our deaths.

  14. robtbrown says:

    In so far as it occurred in a church, it would obviously fit Obama’s category of “workplace violence” rather than terrorism.

  15. YoungLatinMassGuy says:

    I think that priest is a Holy Martyr.

    What else is there to say?

    If you refuse to study islam, what more can I do?

    People like me have been trying to explain the dangers of islam for years (if not more than a decade). We’ve been shouted down as racists and bigots for doing so.

    I’m not that surprised at this attack on this French Priest. They’ve done similar things throughout the Middle East, why should they act any differently when they’re in Europe?

  16. iepuras says:

    Memory eternal!

    I wonder how much more it will take before the people take matters into their own hands. It is clear that the governments of Western Europe are unwilling or incapable of protecting their own people.

  17. Spade says:

    Why would you carry 9mm FMJs? There’s no reason to ever use FMJs for defensive carry unless you own an old gun that can’t use them. Go buy some better ammo.

  18. polycarped says:

    A terrible, terrible, tragedy. But in no sense surprising. Christ is the #1 enemy of this diabolical hoard, of course. There has been no indication yet as to how far the Mass had proceeded and whether the Eucharist may also have been desecrated.

    This happened in a smallish town in France but I note on Google maps that it has at least one Mosque, which says something about the growing size of the Muslim population in the country as a whole. We havent heard any of them decrying or disowning the event yet, of course… (On that note, may I politely lobby for JamesM to become a recipient of a Fr Z Gold Star for his post above, reminding us of the Archbishop of Mosul’s wise and prophetic words?)

    St Anne, Pray for Us.
    Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for Us.

  19. Benedict Joseph says:

    If the West was animated with half the zeal and fortitude of these animals this would not be happening. Given the West has been commandeered by the ideology of atheistic secular materialism (it has other names – I’ll be kind and limit it to left-wing khristianity [a theological conundrum eviscerated of belief in any supreme being but the individual adhering to it) there is nothing to fight for except money and self-gratification. As long as this is the state of the combatants, we are in dire trouble.
    Nature abhors a vacuum. No belief in the Most Holy Trinity; no belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – we might all be singing “Allah’uh” Akbar in a few years.
    Time to wake up. Especially the Archbishop of Rouen. His spurious pacifisim bespeaks of some sort of dissociative reaction. The substitution of left-wing idealism for the marriage of faith and reason found within the Roman Catholic theological matrix of Holy Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Magisterium is insufficient for the current hostilities. Such is actually an act of intellectual violence.
    Should I now expect any more leadership into right thinking, right judgement, right action than I have seen exhibited in a good number of years from any ecclesiastic or political leader. No.
    We are the captives of fraudulence on steroids.

  20. un-ionized says:

    JeffLiss, that is beautiful. I spend as much time as possible at an abbey and I agree.

  21. Mike says:

    Meantime the Archbishop of Rouen has lumped together the slain perps and the martyred Fr. Hamel as ‘victims’. God help our twisted Church!

  22. Suburbanbanshee says:

    Getting killed during morning Mass on a Tuesday, a martyr at the Church of St. Stephen, the first martyr… truly, we must always be ready to go to the Lord.

    It’s an immigrant Senegalese neighborhood. A local guy of Senegal heritage whose mom is a daily Massgoer in the parish noted that it’s a friendly parish, that parishioners are on nodding terms with the local Muslims whose prayer room is nearby, and that Fr. Hamel made a special point of inviting Muslim kids to participate in parish youth activities. He also made parish activity rooms available to any non-Catholic religious group that needed them for activities, within reason.

  23. Sawyer says:

    I think one of the most effective things Pope Francis could do in response to this attack would be to canonize the slain priest immediately by fiat.

  24. FrankWalshingham says:

    France needs to wake up. Was as the Basilica of St. Theresa in Lisieux on Saturday. With the country under high alert there was not a single security person in site in one of the country’s most sacred sites, And they let this terrorist out on en electronic tether instead of giving him the electric chair??? Time for the next Crusade when they start killing priests in church!

  25. APX says:

    The silver lining in all of this is that the priest has now received the crown of martyrdom and has a special place in Heaven now.

    Fear not them who kill the body, but rather those who kill the soul.

  26. JesusFreak84 says:

    Can a laywoman with a short fuse call a Crusade? ._.

  27. excalibur says:

    Back in c.1979, after the Jimmy Carter aided and abetted Iranian revolution, I told my parents that we needed a zero Mohammedan immigration policy in the USA. Instead we get an ever increasing Mohammedan immigration / ‘refugee’ policy. If Hillary is elected her stated policies will result in a minimum of 750,000 in just four years. The suicide of the West.

    Isn’t it obvious now to all that the Lord is using Mohammedans to chastise the former Christendom? And 2017 is rushing towards us.

  28. Geoffrey says:

    To be honest, I am surprised we have not seen more of this. There is no “softer” target than a Catholic church on a Sunday morning. Christe, eleison.

  29. Fuerza says:

    Not to sound overly political, but this is why I always carry off-duty. I typically have a snub-nose .38 IWB at Mass. It sounds like I may have to switch to my full-size S&W .45 duty weapon with all 3 mags.

  30. lairdangusmcangus says:

    Roman Catholics, by which I mean primarily the laity, need to rediscover our holy anger.

    We have become a weak and servile people, too focused on our own (largely imagined) past transgressions to the exclusion of the Truth and Beauty of our faith.

    Christianity is NOT all about “turning the other cheek.” Our Lord also promised to set the world on fire and wished that it was ablaze already!

    It is long past time for a more muscular form of Roman Catholicism to assert itself.

    My prayer is that the Holy Father takes a few minutes off from his social justice crusade to fulfill his sacred obligation as the successor of Peter and protector of Christians. We must hear from him on this, and he must do what it takes to protect the religious and the laity.

    Perhaps we need a new militant order answerable to the Holy See, charged with providing security to our churches, monasteries, shrines, convents, and holy sites?

  31. jhayes says:

    From Cardinal Sarah (Translated from the French)

    In France today, a priest had his throat cut with a bladed weapon in a church. I am deeply shocked, horrified and scandalized.

    How many deaths will it take for the European governments to understand the situation in which the West finds itself? How many cut off heads?

    I pray for the murdered priest, I pray for his executioners, I pray for France, I pray for the French people. God come to our aid.

  32. Clinton R. says:

    May God bless the eternal soul of Pere Hamel. I wish the Pope and the leaders of European nations would understand that we are in a war with Islam. Centuries ago, the Mohammedans tried to invade Europe and were thwarted thanks to Our Lady’s intercession. Now, they are given a free pass to come into the continent and wreak havoc. But why is that? Because as others here have noted, France, as well as the rest of Europe have abandoned the Faith for secularism. And recent pontiffs have a strange fixation with Islam, they tell us what a great peaceful religion it is, but yet we see just the opposite. Not all of us are ignorant of history. St. Michael, defend us in battle. +JMJ+

  33. benedetta says:

    When Gov. Tim Kaine said that he was a “Pope Francis Catholic”, no doubt he was attempting to signal to his base that he was an “American Democrat sort of Catholic” first, meaning, supportive of the culture of death, and to others affirming and validating their bigotry against prolife Catholicism which is at the very core of the Gospel of Life, and completely of all Popes in all times and places.

    And yet, the time is already here when regardless of whether or not you support the continued annihilation of tens of millions of babies in the womb for convenience’s sake, to declare one’s self a “Pope Francis Catholic” means now entirely to signal to the entire world that you are prepared and ready for martyrdom for the Catholic faith, if it be God’s Holy Will for you and for your salvation. Who among us are indeed ready?

  34. jaykay says:

    This is not bitter, but how much more realistic was the response of Cardinal Sarah, in that he prays for Pere Hamel’s “executioners”, than that of the Archbishop who speaks of them as “victims”? Truly, being close to any situation doesn’t necessarily mean that you see it more clearly than those at a distance. They were not victims, they were murderers, pur sang. They received their just desserts. Yes, we should pray for them. Not semi-validate them.

  35. Kathleen10 says:

    God rest the soul of this poor, elderly priest, and please help the many wounded.
    One could say in a sense Islam has already conquered France. If this kind of slaughter is now the order of the day and there is no change in policy of any kind, who has the victory? Political correctness still rules. Maddeningly, they keep printing insane questions about motives or connections to ISIS. Are people that diabolically disoriented that they believe victims are less dead because there was no apparent ISIS connection? Or that they can sleep tight, the “motive hasn’t been determined”? This is insanity on such a grand scale.
    Where are the people, filling the streets and demanding an immediate end to political correctness and a complete change in immigration policy and when possible, deportations. Even internment should be on the table. This is WAR. We must all wake up from our stupor and get serious about keeping citizens safe from enemy combatants. Until they do this, it is just meaningless, political blather, completely detached from reality.

  36. TheDude05 says:

    I wonder if this will change my Bishop’s mind about his no concealed or open carry on properties owned or maintained by the Diocese policy. Probably not but one can hope.

  37. iPadre says:

    “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” Mt. 25:13

    This may/ will happen in any one of our churches soon. Everyone – Bishops, Priests and laity ought to make frequent Confession and Holy Hours. We must not be caught without oil in our lamps.

  38. jhayes says:

    The President of the Conference of Bishops has asked “all the Catholics of France” to observe “a day of fasting and prayer” Friday “for our country and for peace throughout the world,” after the death of a priest whose throat was cut in his church near Rouen.

    “We have different reactions at times like this. We know, however, that only brotherhood, held dear in our country, is the path that leads to lasting peace. Let’s build it together” wrote the Archbishop of Marseilles, in a message a few hours after the jihadist attack at Sainte-Étienne-du-Rouvray (Seine-Maritime)

  39. jhayes says:

    Left out the name of the President:
    Bp. Georges Pontier

  40. lairdangusmcangus says:

    Actually, my last paragraph was a bit of a throwaway, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a lay order dedicated to protecting churches and holy sites. It could be dedicated to St. Michael and in order to circumvent draconian gun laws in much of Christendom, be open to members of law enforcement, who are already under the Archangel’s patronage.

    The Holy See could issue a bull stating that members of the order are permitted to carry weapons inside all Catholic churches provided they inform the priest.

    Can you imagine how many young men (and women, I suppose) would be called to this holy vocation to protect their fellow Catholics from aggression and persecution? This would be a muscular Catholicism indeed!

  41. AvantiBev says:

    And may our secular and ecclesiastical “leaders” stop acting like they are ALREADY the departed, take their heads out of their rear orifices, face reality and LEAD with truth & courage.

  42. AvantiBev says:

    Bethv, Get on the westbound #66 bus on Chicago Ave and get off at Ogden. Walk back east one block and you’re at St John Cantius. After Holy Name, 12:30 would be too much of a jolt for you, so try the 9 a.m. NO in English or 11 a.m. NO in Latin with choir. See u soon.

  43. AvantiBev says:

    Make a daily or ar least thrice weekly check of Melkite rite Catholic, Robert Spencer, has been attempting to rouse the West for some time. Some of those who have slammed the door on him call themselves “Catholic shepherds “.

  44. Supertradmum says:

    Those who have not been to Europe need to rethink their criticisms. I find more young people in Church in Luxembourg than in many other places, including Ireland and towns in the States. The culture is not totally secular, and many people are coming back to the Faith through current events. God is in charge.

    Americans need to recognize that our own false ideals of democracy (mob rule now) and run-away greed here in America was imported to Europe, not the other way around. Our country has never had a Catholic culture, which Europe still does, albeit buried by the “isms”.

    Hollande bravely stood up for Catholics yesterday after the murder of the good priest. I cannot imagine ANY American politician stating publicly solidarity with persecuted Catholics. But, Hollande did, clearly.

    God will bring the Eldest Daughter of the Church back to the fold. perhaps through suffering, but imho, American culture is actually worse. I hear the church bells ringing daily in Luxembourg City, still calling people to prayer, where in many American cities there are no Angelus bells and no daily bells for Mass. We do not witness publicly daily in many places.

    I hope Pope Francis canonized this priest immediately as a martyr. Such a witness…an old priest not retiring and carrying on his vocation to the very end.

  45. I would note, in passing, that Pere Jacques departed this life one day after his namesake’s feast, and in the same manner. If his sacrifice, standing at the altar, the gateway to Heaven, in the person of our Lord does not merit a martyr’s crown…then nothing does.

    Prayers for his soul ascending. And prayers that perfect justice, which itself is true mercy, has been applied to his murderers.

  46. Orlando says:

    How soon before we here the apologist of islamofascist ( Democratic Party) say…” Islam is a tolerant and peaceful religion , egg on by those evil Christians?”

  47. Orlando says:

    Apologize for the typos! Trying to make dinner and comment at same time not a good combination! But it is grilled artichokes with a lemon butter sauce :)

  48. APX says:

    Here’s a bit more on Fr. Hamel:

    Turns out he was just filling in for a priest who was on vacation. He didn’t believe in priests retiring and vowed to keep working until his last breath. Needless to say he was faithful to that vow.

  49. JuliB says:

    Jesus Freak 84- You would declare a Crusade on your own? No. For that we need several of us to band together – you know “sensus fidelium”. I’m with you on that.

  50. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    When Cardinal Sarah says ‘bourreaux’ how and why does one choose between translating ‘executioners’, ‘tormentors’, and ‘persecutors’? (What do French Bibles give for “orate pro persequentibus et calumniantibus vos”?)

  51. jhayes says:

    VSL, in the traditional Crampon translation, Matthew 5:43-45 is

    Vous avez appris qu’il a été dit: Tu aimeras ton proche, et tu haïras ton ennemi.
    Et moi je vous dis: Aimez vos ennemis et priez pour ceux qui vous persécutent,
    afin que vous deveniez enfants de votre Père qui est dans les cieux; car il fait lever son soleil sur les méchants et sur les bons, et descendre la pluie sur les justes et sur les injustes.

    It omits “et calumniantibus”
    As does the more modern The Jerusalem Bible:

    « Vous avez entendu qu’il a été dit : Tu aimeras ton prochain et tu haïras ton ennemi.
    Eh bien ! moi je vous dis : Aimez vos ennemis, et priez pour vos persécuteurs,
    afin de devenir fils de votre Père qui est aux cieux, car il fait lever son soleil sur les méchants et sur les bons, et tomber la pluie sur les justes et sur les injustes.

  52. Pater Raphael says:

    I would like to thank Supertradmum for her thoughtful comment. The situation in Luxemburg is similar to the situation in Austria and parts of Germany (mainly Bavaria). Catholic culture is still alive! BUT it is in the process of dying. I like to compare it with that beautiful plant you have on the kitchen windowsill but forgot to water before you went away for a fortnight. You come home an see that some of the leaves have fallen off, others are shrivelled up and clearly dead, but some are still green-ish and could be revived. You feel relieved, it’s not completely dead, but it would be no good just to pour a couple of litres of water in the pot – then you would just drown the poor thing, no, first you give just a little water, then an hour or two later some more, all the time watching to see if it improves. That way you may well save your plant and bring it back to bloom, so to speak. The Church is not dead here…. but we can’t take too much, too quick therapy either, if you want to bring it back to bloom.

  53. Christ_opher says:

    Living in France and sadly they have been too tolerant for too long.

    Hoping that Father Hamel is put on a fast track to Sainthood as an true example of standing firm in the faith. Also, hoping that people start reading the koran instead of regurgitating this religion of peace nonsense that is so nice when in fact it’s the opposite. In reality it has to be accepted that the impression of the R O P slogan (religion of peace) has been adopted by many Cardinals, Priests Bishops and Catholics without making the effort to substantiate this slogan as truthful or untruthful.

    Two more things the slogan that they shout when committing atrocities as far as i’m aware means “our god is the greatest” secondly, the media should stop using the word prophet before the name of their false prophet.

    R O P = R I P

  54. Muv says:

    The logic, perverse and evil as it is, is inescapable. The Koran is a truly filthy screed, denying the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ and extolling violence against non-Muslims. It was only a matter of time before some fiendish sons of Mohammed in Europe put themselves before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament to murder a priest.

    Fr Z, surely the fact that it is illegal to carry arms in France should have a bearing on your answer to JustaSinner. Any European priest would have immediately asked why he would have firearms on him at Mass. Quite frankly, I am happier knowing that I am surrounded by an unarmed congregation, and if some lunatic murders me at Mass in the name of Allah I can think of no better place to die.

    Fr. Jacques Hamel, pray for us.

  55. Filipino Catholic says:

    Father Hamel, santo subito!

    I find it rather poignant that his heavenly dies natalis falls on the day after the feast of St James the Apostle, also known as Santiago de Compostela, patron of Spain during and after the Reconquista (and currently patron of the Spanish people, not of the country). The Spanish have also given him the title of Matamoros, but that epithet is no longer used these days.

    Someone ought to translate into Latin the Spanish battle cry bearing his name — “¡Santiago y cierra, España!

  56. Traductora says:

    I’m in Spain, in the small city of Toro, and when I passed by the small old church that is around the corner from my hotel, I saw an inscription over the door behind a statue of the Virgin holding the Niño that read (my translation to English, of course): In this Church, Catholic worship was kept public during the time of the Saracens. The last refers to the Muslim invaders who overran Castilla several times, kept it subjugated and demanded tribute in the form of gold, food supplies and young boys and girls as slaves in exchange for not slaughtering the whole population.

    It looks like it can happen again. It will, unless we do something.

    This town in France had one known mosque, whose leader has made a statement condemning the attack, but it appears that at least two of the attackers attended another mosque or perhaps different services at that one. Start at least by closing those places and making all mosques agree to accept a certain amount of monitoring if they wish to stay in business.

    As for terrorists, even deporting them isn’t enough. There have been several who were technically deported but returned to the country; I think the most recent German axe murderer terrorist had actually been refused residence but got it in Bulgaria. And even individual monitoring doesn’t work, since one of the priest’s killers was wearing an electronic bracelet. It’s hard to say what we can do until we start taking it seriously.

  57. APX says:

    Maybe it’s time parishes start looking into emergency planning in case of terrorist attack/invasion into the churches?

    I used to work in a probation office and every office had a panic button that if pressed sent a call out to the emergency response Center, we also had safe rooms with reinforced doors and locks.

    Obviously you can’t plan for everything, but not having any plan is just stupid.

  58. Semper Gumby says:

    Prayers for Fr. Hamel and the injured. Pope Urban II ora pro nobis.

  59. Vincent says:

    This isn’t a new tactic; it’s guerrilla warfare. What can you do about it? Not much, in physical terms, because it’s ideology driving it. It’s worth mentioning that the French police actually did very well; they dealt with the threat efficiently and didn’t wait for more lives to be lost.

    As an Englishman,I find gun ownership for the purpose of shooting at other people rather abhorrent: It’s not a European custom to carry weapons, and nor should it be. And in many ways, the terrorists want to be killed, because they believe themselves to be covering themselves in eternal glory. This is a war that cannot be won by physical means. It has to be spiritual, and maybe the fact that a Catholic church was attacked was a retaliation against the spiritual war that we cannot see.

  60. Mike says:

    It’s not a European custom to carry weapons, and nor should it be.

    Myriads of my father’s generation died liberating European nations whose people could not defend themselves. Sad to say, it looks like my grand-nephews’ generation may get the same opportunity.

  61. jameeka says:

    Lairdangusmcangus : good idea!

  62. un-ionized says:

    Vincent, you have it inside out, it’s not “for the purpose of shooting at other people.” It is for dealing with a dire emergency. You make it sound as if a CCW holder gets one just to be able to murder. Not right.

  63. Spade says:

    ” It’s worth mentioning that the French police actually did very well; they dealt with the threat efficiently and didn’t wait for more lives to be lost.

    As an Englishman,I find gun ownership for the purpose of shooting at other people rather abhorrent: It’s not a European custom to carry weapons, and nor should it be. And in many ways, the terrorists want to be killed, because they believe themselves to be covering themselves in eternal glory. ”

    So the police did “very well” when they used the guns they have for the purpose of shooting other people, but otherwise it’s abhorrent. And if the terrorists wanted to be killed than the police apparently did “very well” when they obliged them.

    It’s a strange dichotomy.

  64. Vincent says:

    Wow. Rabbit hole well and truly opened there; first, un-ionized, I’m not in any way implying that a CCW is explicitly for the purpose of killing someone else, but that is clearly one of its key functions. (dire emergency or not) I’d argue that in order to use a weapon in an emergency, one would have to be trained not to baulk at the prospect of killing another. I’d readily admit that my views on guns are formed from being British and that I wouldn’t feel safer knowing that there are more around.

    Mike, indeed. The sacrifice of many men, often my age, is something that I think about almost daily. But most of my grandfathers’ generation of my family fought in that same war. But this is something a completely different type of war. If, as I and many others fear, there is another war imminently, I’m perfectly prepared to fight for my country, like my grandfathers.

    Spade. If I had solutions, I wouldn’t be working where I am… But it remains a fact that even though the police reacted well to a situation that could easily have got out of hand, that killing will have other repercussions, and could encourage others. They are between a rock and a hard place…

  65. WYMiriam says:

    Muv, you wrote, ” Quite frankly, I am happier knowing that I am surrounded by an unarmed congregation, and if some lunatic murders me at Mass in the name of Allah I can think of no better place to die.”

    It’s certainly your privilege to say that, about yourself. What about all the other people in the congregation? Are you willing to sit there and let them be slaughtered, too? Maybe they can think of a better place — or at the very least, a better way — to die.

    I really need to get some formal weapons training!

  66. un-ionized says:

    Europe is finding out now that the takeover has begun, “A man with a gun is a citizen, a man without a gun is a subject.”

  67. APX says:

    Maybe they can think of a better place — or at the very least, a better way — to die.

    The Church Fathers and Saints unanimously state that the best way to die is martyrdom. No purgatory, straight to Heaven, receive crown of martyrdom (double crown for those virgin martyrs), and a very good place in Heaven. If God wills is to die a martyr’s death, He will provide the grace at the moment we need it.

    I can think of far worse ways to die…

  68. Venerator Sti Lot says:


    Thanks for the French Bible translations! (Alas, I have no Catholic scholarly edition of the Greek text, but a quick look at an old Nestle suggests the presence or absence of what lies behind “et calumniantibus” is a matter of different manuscript/early translation traditions.)

    If I try to find the translation of Cardinal Sarah’s word of choice, ‘bourreaux’, one option I find is the Jerusalem Bible’s ‘persécuteurs’.

    The impressive

    gives me among its definitions “Personne exerçant des violences principalement physiques sur une autre généralement sans défense avec une froide cruauté” (which Google renders ‘Person performing primarily physical violence on another defenseless usually with a cold cruelty’) and “Personne exerçant des violences surtout morales” (‘Person performing especially moral violence’).

    Ranging among Wikipedia articles, I can’t help thinking that if Cardinal Sarah had wished to characterize these murderers as outrageously considering themselves in some sense ‘exécuteurs des arrêts de justice’ (‘judicial executioners as persons who carry out a death sentence ordered by the state or other legal authority’) he would have made that point more explicitly.

  69. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    Vincent said, “It’s not a European custom to carry weapons, and nor should it be” and “This is a war that cannot be won by physical means” and later “I’d readily admit that my views on guns are formed from being British and that I wouldn’t feel safer knowing that there are more around.”

    I’d like to know more about how recently, variously it ceased to be ‘a European custom to carry weapons’, having grown up with reading Sherlock Holmes telling Dr. Watson on certain occasions to be sure to bring his old service revolver with him as a precaution. And it was certainly a custom in all sorts of countries for those in the ‘Resistance’ to carry weapons during the Nazi German occupation. I’ve heard the (to me) curious story that C.S. Lewis disposed of his old service revolver after the fall of France in 1940, as some sort of precaution in case England was successfully invaded – but a couple decades later he did not prevent his (American) wife patrolling their grounds with a long gun, when they were suffering a certain degree of trespassing and vandalism.

    I fear (from the various ‘liquidations in the criminal milieu’ and so on I read about regularly in various European countries) that one can only ‘feel safer knowing that there are not more guns around owned by responsible law-abiding fellow residents’, as one can have no idea how many illegal ones there are around, but can probably (ahem) safely assume that it is quite a few, and many more than one would like.

    I wonder if ‘this is a war that can be won without physical means (though not exclusively so)’ – the one against the Nazis and Italian Fascists wasn’t, nor was the Greek civil war of 1946-49, for another example.

  70. Alanmac says:

    Front page of this week’s Western Catholic Reporter, Edmonton, Canada:
    “Muslims, Catholics build bridges at Ramadan ritual meal.”
    The Edmonton Archdiocese is bending over backwards to be seen as progressive. It does not serve the Church or individual Catholics.

  71. Kerry says:

    Feeling safe, what is that? “Safe” is not a feeling. Anger, hunger, rage, exuberance, depression, lonely, those are feelings. I’d “feel” safer if there were fewer Moo-slims around with evil intentions in their hearts, whether they are carrying firearms or not. And that tired pablum ” only designed to kill”, or ‘only for shooting others’. Which others? Just anyone who wanders into range? That’s the approach of the evil Moo-slims, “Kill them all!”. Fight or flight, pick one. (Note the absent third choice, “Disarm the innocent”.) Want to feel, (FEEL), what I pray the British used to feel and can feel again about England? Find Vera Lynn singing “Land of Hope and Glory”. Or the American hope and glory, Battle Hymn of the Republic, Odetta’s version, and Ray Charles’ America the Beautiful, not forgetting Mr. Sousa. And this is nice: I do feel ‘safer’ when those guys are around. And they have no problems knowing who does, and does not need shootin’.

  72. jhayes says:

    VSL, I believe that Cardinal Sarah was thinking of the death of the priest as a “meurtre aux allures d’exécution” – what is called in English an “execution-style murder.” Just as the killer might be called an “executioner,” in French he might be called a “bourreau.”

    Bourreau is used figuratively in expressions like “bourreau d’enfants, “bourreau de travail,” “bourreau des coeurs”, etc. It doesn’t always mean someone acting on behalf of the state.

  73. skip67 says:

    The world is getting worse by the day. I carry concealed, because it is my duty to protect my wife, and family. Also it is my duty, if something happens in public to help defend those who cannot defend themselves. Anyone who decides to carry a weapon, I would suggest strongly, to find a range and get some training. Our youngest son taught his mother how to shoot, the Army way, and although she doesn’t carry outside the house, if someone did manage to break into the house, she can protect herself. As Father says go to confession! As one of the greatest American generals said” Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. Captain, that is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave.”
    General Stonewall Jackson, CSA.
    St Michael, defend us in battle..

  74. un-ionized says:

    Kerry, we feel safe, are safe, because of what our Lord and savior Jesus Christ has done for us. Anyone who doesn’t have Christ is very unsafe.

  75. benedetta says:

    Half those attendees at the priest’s funeral — no offense from the footage people seem like they’d never been to Mass before, didn’t know what prayer is. Isn’t that, the photo of post-Catholic, secular Europe, what the reigning party and their apparatchiks in our parishes, so many pastors in the US, certain partisan operatives in women religious for choice and one party, and so many at “Catholic” university and “Catholic” politicians have been aiming for, all these years, for decades? To graduate us all right out of the faith. And the DNC couldn’t care less…they don’t mention it, and why, because their very leaders growing exactly out of these contexts have animated hatred towards Catholics right here at home, by their policies, and by their associations with people who are extreme, bigoted, hating Catholics, and who plot and harass them to their demise. Europe is in a drug induced sleep and our country obviously admires it.

  76. WYMiriam says:

    APX — how does that square (1) with Ezekiel 18:32:

    Douay-Rheims: “For I desire not the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God, return ye and live”?

    KJV: ” For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. ”

    and (2) with Ezekiel 18:23:

    Douay-Rheims: “Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live?”

    KJV: “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?”

    Or in other words, does God actually will the manner of our death?

  77. Venerator Sti Lot says:


    Thanks! I am often astonished to see people in English using forms of ‘execute’, ‘execution’, and so on when I think they should be saying “execution-style murder”, but perhaps that is often their intention by a sort of shorthand.

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