VIDEO: Robert Royal and Fr. Murray on EWTN about ‘Traditionis’

Note the observation, not lost on me, that Francis complained in his Letter, about problems with the Novus Ordo.

When will Francis crack down on abuses in the Novus Ordo?

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  1. DCG81 says:

    I’d love to see lay Catholics adopt Pope Francis’ words about the Novus Ordo in “Traditionis custodes” as a rallying cry to increase the number of Latin Novus Ordo Masses in their dioceses.

    Picture this: Grassroots groups of lay Catholics in each diocese reach out to their priests and convince at least one priest in each deanery of their diocese to celebrate at least one weekend Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, ad orientem, and with parishioners kneeling at the altar rail for Communion.

    Citing the motu proprio, these grassroots groups could accurately present themselves as responding to the pope’s call to improve celebrations of the Novus Ordo. Liberals who would naturally be expected to oppose Latin and ad orientem in the Novus Ordo would then find themselves in the unfamiliar position of explaining why they are being “anti-Francis.” After all, the pope’s stated goal is to transition people from the TLM to the Novus Ordo. Wouldn’t a Latin ad orientem Novus Ordo stand a better chance of accomplishing that goal than a vernacular Mass with guitar music? What bishop who supports the pope’s goal could oppose such a grassroots effort?

    We’re all praying that the Traditional Latin Mass will continue to be available. But what if, in the aftermath of “Traditionis custodes,” we not only still had Traditional Latin Masses but also had an exponentially larger number of Latin Novus Ordo Masses? That would be a great victory for Tradition.

  2. robtbrown says:

    To answer your question: Never.

    IMHO, Francis is not very smart, but he is very shrewd. That was a line intended to disable his critics.

    BTW, abuses aren’t the main problem with the Novus Ordo.

  3. hilltop says:

    Are we to expect flowing from Francis’ letter to the bishops a coming novus novus ordo?:
    I ask seriously because of what His Holiness writes:
    ” At the same time, I ask you to be vigilant in ensuring that every liturgy be celebrated with decorum and fidelity to the liturgical books promulgated after Vatican Council II, without the eccentricities that can easily degenerate into abuses. Seminarians and new priests should be formed in the faithful observance of the prescriptions of the Missal and liturgical books, in which is reflected the liturgical reform willed by Vatican Council II.”
    And then again from the same letter to the Bishops:
    “Responding to your requests, I take the firm decision to abrogate all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio, and declare that the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, constitute the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.”

    It appears that he has abrogated not just Benedict’s “norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio,” but that he also has gone further and abrogated “ALL all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio.”

    If I remember correctly (and I am neither canonist nor historian) such permissions include extraordinary ministers, altar girls, communion in the hand, versus populum celebration etc., all of which “precede this Motu Proprio” and all of which follow after “the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, [that] constitute the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite”.

    So, can we expect:
    Music? Organs.
    Sung Voice? Gregorion Chant
    The Mass? All in Latin except for Readings and Homilies ONLY.
    Offered Ad orientum ALWAYS
    Communion kneeling and on tongue ALWAYS
    Altar BOYS?
    No extraordinary ministers?
    And what about lay readers?

    Seriously offered.

  4. Sportsfan says:

    “When will Francis crack down on abuses in the Novus Ordo?”

    Thanks Father, I needed a good chuckle.

  5. JustaSinner says:

    When will Francis crack down on abuses in the Novus Ordo?

    November 31st of 20never…

  6. Elizium23 says:

    The Ordinary Form Latin Mass has had very little traction. Various reasons can be cited.

    EF aficionados will say that the structure and inherent prayers of this Mass comprise the largest attraction and advantage.

    People in Pews don’t really seem to understand that the Roman Rite is, has been, and always will be in Latin. They are, oftentimes, confused and scandalised by OFLM; it is often difficult to explain the character of this liturgy.

    So it kind of alienates people from both sides. This, despite the best intentions and the mutual enrichment that we ache to implement.

    It seems to be most effective when a priest and parish implement “Reform of the Reform” incrementally, over a relatively long time period. Brick by brick, as it were. My parish has enjoyed the fruits of this sort of implementation; the church has increased in beauty; likewise with the liturgy; and some people have grumbled at a couple of things, but are less likely to leave our parish because of a liturgical element than they are to leave over a personal/moral dispute.

    Unfortunately, the same incrementalism will be employed to abrogate the Missals prior to 1970. This first step was met with shock, but there is more to come. The Holy Father indicated his firm intention to completely abrogate SP and ED, but only in the accompanying letter; it is rather clear that TC is not yet the total abrogation being decried by some Roman Catholic critics.

  7. ex seaxe says:

    The Tablet is not where I expected to read a piece like this :

    [And the Catholic Herald has a piece trashing it. Upside down.]

  8. You Can Call Me Betty says:

    Scandalized? By a Mass in Latin? Put off, maybe, because of its unfamiliarity. But most Catholics, regardless of their age or experience with Latin, recognize and actually revere small references to the past, such as singing parts of the Mass in Latin, or diving in to an older hymn. If it were presented sensitively, I bet it’d go over better than you’d think. There’s a reason people keep coming back to the Mass, despite all the upheaval over the last 60 years, and despite the near-emptiness of many Catholic parish experiences. People are hungry for the truth, and they know it when they see it.

  9. Laurelmarycecilia says:

    what EXACTLY are the abuses of the ‘old Mass’ ? if indeed there are meaningful abuses, why not address those abuses? or in normal speak: don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater

    psssst ! my opinion for what it’s worth (and you paid nothing for it – so…) this has nothing to do with liturgical abuses; just as the covid reaction of the world’s governments has nothing to do with public health

  10. RJT says:

    The motu proprio needs to be scrutinized. Its arguments are not properly supported. like a faulty legal case it should be thrown out of court:

  11. aam says:

    Surely there must be one, but I cannot think of a single occasion this pope affirmed me in my faith.

  12. You Can Call Me Betty says:

    “Surely there must be one, but I cannot think of a single occasion this pope affirmed me in my faith.”

    And his pontificate most likely will be but a blip in the history of the Church, a name no one knows or remembers (same as the vast majority of popes through the ages–how many can the average Catholic even name, let alone recount the significance of each one’s reign?)

    Most of what we experience in the present age only seems significant because *we* are the ones experiencing it. God has a plan, and He’s fully in control. He asks us to try to place ourselves on board with that plan, by praying and staying faithful to His Church, and then doing what’s in front of us.

  13. I hate to say it, but: I would rather take a chance on Rome leaving things alone with the celebration and rubrics of the 1970 Mass. I dread the thought of the sort of advice he might be given regarding “proper” celebration of the newer Mass. I can imagine someone telling him that what absolutely must be removed from the celebration of the newer Mass are things like birettas, maniples, bows and genuflections deemed excessive.* Such an instruction might bar use of older forms of music, bar kneeling for Holy Communion…who knows? Let’s not find out.

    *E.g., I teach our servers to genuflect when crossing in front of the tabernacle, even during Mass — despite the rubrics suggesting otherwise — because I think the distinction being made here is pretty confusing for kids, and better to err a little on the side of adoring the Incarnate Lord. In short, I am being “pastoral.”

  14. The repeat of The World Over is on EWTN Radio at 10 PM Eastern time tonight in case anyone missed it and doesn’t want to watch it on YouTube. Note that at least one important EWTN Radio affiliate studiously avoids carrying either the original or its encore as a matter of habit, so you may need to go directly to EWTN at if your affiliate opts out of The World Over.

    Not only is the Tablet article in an unexpected venue, but it’s also quite good. It made me start to think that if we applied the logic of the motu proprio in reverse, we should end all Novus Ordo Masses too as the people who offer and attend them are guilty of all manner of sins. It reminds me of the Star Trek dialog between Kirk and Spock in “This Side of Paradise”:

    SPOCK: Captain. Striking a fellow officer is a court martial offense.
    KIRK: Well, if we’re both in the Brig, who’s going to build the subsonic transmitter?

    If we eliminate all TLM’s and all Novus Ordo Masses, where are we going to get the grace we need to fight the real enemies? If we spend all our time fighting one another, who will fight the real enemies?

    Finally, with regard to RJT’s comment, unfortunately, when the Pope is the supreme administrator, legislator, and judge, no one has the legal competence to “throw the case out of court.” Perhaps we need to consider a model of Church governance that gives the diocesan bishop more of his due as one possessing the fullness of episcopal ordination. This may be worth pursuing as we need to remember that even the Pope is not ordained again when selected as Pope (unless he’s not already a bishop). It may even be time for another ecumenical council to revisit Vatican I, which attempted to deal with the role of the papacy but was never formally ended– with the caveat that next time around, a decentralized Church might not get us to where we need to be either.

  15. Pingback: SATVRDAY EDITION – Big Pulpit

  16. Grabski says:

    Francis, the Gallen Group and the like want either for a) Traditionalists to pray, pay and shut up or b) leave.

    There are 17 separate churches in Union with Rome; Chaldean, Byzantine, et al.

    There are multiple liturgies within the Latin Church: Mozarabic, Dominican, Anglican Use.

    It’s clear that the group in charge are looking for liturgical dancing cafeteria Catholics (think Biden or Pelosi).

    This blow to unity is deliberate. And wrong

  17. Semper Gumby says:

    Thanks Fr. Z for this video.

    Sportsfan and JustaSinner: Yep, there is a targeted agenda here.

    Fr. Murray: “I don’t think the Pope is making a statement based on the lived experience of the vast majority of the people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass.” This Vatican outburst is a case study in hypocrisy, vengeance and Leftist rigidity.

    And as Robert Royal points out, in this crazy mixed-up world there is a need for the “strong and unmoving dimension of what our Church could be.” It was before and can be again. Christus Vincit.

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