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I have a feeling we’ll be seeing more smoke of this color. Every pundit in the media seems to predict a fast conclave, but why would it be quick? There’s certainly much to consider, and as there were no clear frontrunners at the start, it’s quite possible that at some point a group of cardinals around one candidate will switch to another. Who then needs one or two additional rounds to asses his potential of getting to 77, and so on. Don’t forget that a group of 38 cardinals can block a candidate, JPIIs amendment that a 50%+1 majority is enough after 34 rounds has been abrogated again. It may take a fair while to chip away the 38th vote against a candidate. Yes, a long conclave may signal the cardinals are divided, but chances are they are indeed divided.
If we have a Pope on Thursday that would be very fast in my opinion, and if it should go into next week, I wouldn’t be surprised.
As they say haste is of the devil. It’s best they take their time.
I’ve heard nobody predict a fast conclave.
As much as I would like a fast conclave so I can stop being glued to watching a chimney when I’d rather be sleeping (why has no one come up with an app for that? Surely people would like to receive an alert while sleeping if a new pope is selected, no?), my understanding is a long conclave would be a good thing.
Who came up with these front runners anyways?
APX, http://www.popealarm.com :o)
Festina lente, guys.
popealarm has been very prompt sending texts to my phone.
I am surprised that some tree-hugger group hasn’t complained about the Vatican contributing to global warming with all that smoke!
Unfortunately I can’t get texts b/c I’m Canadian.
Nevermind. Habemus papam!! And here come the “we want women priests crowd” on CNN. *sigh*
Yes… the MSM wants a quick conclave so they can move onto the next news cycle. They want instant news, instant punditry, instant everything… And yes… the Church bashing was in full-force yesterday with the sex-abuse scandal being brought up every 15 minutes, the question of why aren’t their women priests right after that, birth control and abortion next… ad nauseum. I expect that to continue until we have the next Pope and beyond.
As to the original question, I’d say a week to 10 days would be a quick conclave!
Around 2 o’clock eastern time ,white smoke!
Yes, white smoke! I’m guessing it will be Scherer. If not then one of the Americans – O’Malley.
well, I was proven wrong.
Fingers crossed for Ouellet here.
hmmm. wrong again.
hard to place this, although the media is already calling the new papacy a reversal.
It’s Cardinal Bergoglio, the first non-European Pope! Congratulations, Papa!
Not sure what to think about the selection, but it’s kind of neat that a twice guessed he would be a “first”! Kudos to all the people who guessed Francis as well.
There have been more than one non-European Popes, I’m sure. Peter wasn’t European.
Francis IS the first New World Pope.
Can’t get excited about this.
Traditionalists seem to have gone into meltdown mode for reasons I can’t figure out. What little I have read indicates that he is doctrinally solid. His liturgical bent is less traditional, but that hardly translates into a plotter for dismantling SP. Seems like a lot of premature panic.
I am excited. A good Jesuit friend says he is one of the holiest men out there. He will also be good at cleaning house.
Although, he does seem to be as temperamentally different from Ratzinger as could be.
1. Does he know Latin? Has he ever said a Latin Mass? How popular are they in Buenos Aires?
2. No mozzetta. And he got rid of that stole pretty quickly.
3. Pray for me (did he ask the crowd to bless him or did he ask them to pray that the Lord bless him?)
4. Urbi et Orbi blessing spoken and not chanted.
You know why?
Because for some reason the traditionalists got it in there head that Ranjith or Burke had a legitimate chance. When really they never did.
Pope Francis is theologically conservative, but liturgically moderate/liberal. At least from what I can tell. The Cardinals could have picked somebody better but they also could have picked somebody much much worse.
EWTN translated it as “bless me” but I think Fox News said “pray for me” so I’m not sure.
And yeah, I was shocked at how fast he got rid of the stole.
Is he Pope Francis after Assisi or Xavier? I initially thought Xavier (Jesuit), but now I am wondering Assisi.
Hello, Fr. Z, where are you? :-) Still having computer problems?
I want his role in the Argentinean dirty war set straight. Yes, I know he denies the allegations against him. But books have been written about that war, one from a high-up Argentinean journalist, indicting him in some really heinous things, at least indirectly.
I hope that’s set straight. I wonder how wise it is to elect a man to pope implicated in such a scandal (innocent or not) when the Church has been implicated in so many scandals recently.
Or perhaps they’re sending the message that they won’t be intimidated by false claims made by the media? If so I can get behind that.
But first I want to see that whole thing dealt with by the Church as quickly as possible. I hope they had all the facts in hand before the election.
Cardinal Mahoney?
Cardinal Schonborn?
Cardinal Lehmann?
Cardinal Danneels?
Well, looking at the comments on Roraete – which tend to drift into pessimism rapidly at any opportunity, but often not without some sort of foundation (overreaction doesnt mean there isn’t there) the reasons for the meltdown are:
– Liturgy is apparently not the new Pope’s thing. Traditional liturgy even less, SP was apparently seen little to no implementation in Argentina.
– South America – and his German education – aren’t indications of a traditional view of things theological
– He does seem to have a Paul VI (donating the Tiara) bend in him, indicating he might see the Petrine office more as a primus inter pares.
I’m not sure how relevant all of this will be. It’s much to early to tell. But apart from his apparent desire to cleanse the curia, I do see little to be exited about, and in that sense Francis is indeed the opposite of BXVI. That he was the reported counter-candidate to ratzinger in the last conclave adds heaps to that.
But one never knows what the prayers of 1.2 billion Catholics may set in motion, and all of us will be praying for the Pope.
Oh, and he called the former Pope “Bishop Emeritus”, which, in my opinion, is a much more suitable title (while there have been over 200 popes, there IS one and only one pope), but that might get people riled up.
Here’s the transcript of his speech.
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/13/174224173/transcript-pope-francis-first-speech-as-pontiff
Giuseppe says:
1. Does he know Latin? Has he ever said a Latin Mass? How popular are they in Buenos Aires?
2. No mozzetta. And he got rid of that stole pretty quickly.
No doubt he knows Latin, but the liturgical reform began by BXVI just stopped. There are no indult masses in Argentina, and the SSPX is very strong there.
And honestly, I don’t see him rolling back SP, or making drastic changes to the liturgy. As long as he keeps Marini around, things will be liturgically ok.
Of course, I also don’t see the SSPX being reconciled any time soon or drastic changes to the liturgy(in a positive sense).
But really, we have no idea how he will reign.
I’m not excited about this selection, but the snit fits I’m seeing from (some, not all) traditionalists elsewhere are appalling. We have the Pope we’re supposed to have. It doesn’t have to make sense to us, much less please us. God knows what He is doing.
I am very surprised. The Archbishop of Buenos Aires in Argentina was not at the top of my list of possibilities. But, God knows what He is doing. As a faithful son of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church, I pledge my reverence and obedience to His Holiness of our Lord, Pope Francis.
Meanwhile, I do not see the papal tiara returning to the papal arms any time soon…
God bless our new Holy Father Pope Francis I.
I am excited about Pope Francis. He sounds like a truly holy man. I think he will be the one who will clean house and feed bloated curial egos some humble pie. He will also open the windows to the Vatican Bank and let sunshine disinfect the cesspool that runs the risk of staining the holy church. 77+/115 cardinals voted for him in 2 days. By definition, he is what the church believes it needs right now. Is his election a comment on Pope Benedicts XVI leadership? Partly – it is a rebuke of his administrative leadership, a mild criticism of his liturgical leadership (Francis will essentially be JP III), and carrying forth of his theological leadership.
Perhaps someone should go check on Fr. Z and see if he still has a pulse.
Liturgically speaking, I am disappointed. I do take comfort in the fact that Pope Francis seems to be orthodox when it comes to abortion/euthanasia/homosexual acts etc.
Some in the SSPX are probably kicking themselves right now, but are they humble enough to submit to the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff anyway? That is a question they need to ask themselves, and not one for us to answer for them.
“(static)….. Father Zuhlsdorf…. Father John Zuhlsdorf… pick up a white courtesy telephone, please. Fr. Zuhlsdorf… Father…”
God bless our Holy Father. I’m thrilled, and I love him. I stand with Peter.
I hope Father Z is having a few good drinks. He did mention internet access in Rome was a nightmare.
Benedict incorporated the important groundwork insofar as the established and approved support and validation of the traditional rites are concerned. I’m not exactly worried about Pope Francis withdrawing that approval, so what’s to get sweaty and upset about? He might not make the furthering of the point his personal hobbyhorse, but I don’t think he’ll put the traditionalists into reverse either.
I like him. I like the idea of him – someone eminently humble and forthright, straightforward and Latin, who’ll shake things up, not in the liberal sense, but in the practical ‘go thou forth, behave yourself, help your neighbour, and remember that we’re none of us all that’ sense. And if he’s not big on the papal paraphernalia – what of it? St. Francis Xavier wasn’t either, nor was Francis of Assisi, and they did just fine.
MarcAnthony, I had never heard about the “Dirty War” in Argentina. Reading what you said, though, I googled it. Yup, the media are already on it like white on rice. I came up with several hits right away about the Dirty War and our new pope. Sigh.
anachy, I don’t think he’s guilty for the simple reason that the Church had to be very careful about that sort of thing, but I question the wisdom of a Church recovering from scandals electing a pope implicated, truthfully or not, in scandals.
If the message is that they won’t be cowed by fake media allegations, great, but they better make sure they have the ammunition ready to defend him.
One of my (small)c-catholic coworkers asked me if we should be happy about this. At the time, I didn’t know anything about this man, so I half jokingly said that as long as he wasn’t a Jesuit we should be happy. 10 minutes later I heard the news announce he’s a Jesuit.
I live near a large Jesuit university and see first hand how they have led so many astray. I am struggling greatly with this. I trust God, but I don’t trust the Cardinals to listen to Him.
I don’t think he’ll take the Papal Tiara, he is said to be very humble and lived in a flat, not an archbishop’s residence in his time in Argentina. Is not wearing the Papal Tiara really that much of an issue? He won’t be making womyn priests, or changing anything on gay marriage, abortion, contraception, etc.
Excited for what the next few years will bring.
Interestingly enough – popealarm didn’t’ send me anything (still). Their systems were probably not sized for the huge volume of traffic. I wonder how we can get Fr. Z’s systems beefed up too….
As for what I’m reading – I’m probably going to abstain from comm boxes for a while – some of the comments I’m reading from Catholics are too disturbing. Antipope? Really?
People, relax. Give the fellow a chance. An Italian writer quoted an annoymous cardinal just the other day, “Four years of Bergoglio would be enough to change things.” He has a lot on his plate and the least we as Catholics can do is to pray for him and offer our support and obedience. Sniping and throwing hissy fits is not going to help. From what I’ve read he is a humble, holy man. That’s a good start. And to compare him to Benedict XVI this early in his papacy is a bit unfair. Give him a chance to prove himself. He is the just the Pope we need right now. Trust the good Lord.
Lucas says:
Because for some reason the traditionalists got it in there head that Ranjith or Burke had a legitimate chance. When really they never did.
Not a Traditionalist–I never thought Burke had a chance, and I thought Ranjith would at best get a few votes. I did think that Scola was a good bet. Bergoglio was reputedly a strong candidate in 2005, but was pre-empted by the presence of Cardinal Ratzinger, so maybe we should not be surprised.
Anyone who thinks there is anything even slightly positive about this development is either misinformed or truly delusional. We are in deep, deep trouble.
A fair article on the issue. He actually sounds as if he did a very good job.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/03/13/will_bergoglios_checkered_past_during_argentinas_dirty_war_come_back_to_haunt_him
Of course, to most of the media that’s beside the point, isn’t it?
I think I’ll trust Archbishop Chaput over random hecklers:
I first met our new Holy Father at Rome’s 1997 Synod for America, and still have a gift from him, a portrait of Mary, the mother of Jesus, on my desk.
Pope Francis, the former Cardinal Bergoglio, is a man from the new heartland of the global Church; a priest of extraordinary intellectual and cultural strengths; a man deeply engaged in the issues of contemporary life and able to speak to the modern heart; open to the new realities the Church faces; and rooted in a deep love of Jesus Christ. He is a wonderful choice; a pastor God sends not just to the Church but to every person of good will who honestly yearns for justice, peace and human dignity in our time. May God grant him courage and joy, and sustain him with his divine presence.
And may Catholics in Philadelphia and around the world lift him up with our prayers.
Ignore the troll, everybody. I’m sure Father Z has enough going on without returning to his blog to find a comment war.
Looking forward to Father’s triumphant return at expert analysis at some point!
I haven’t seen any “proof” of the Pope’s involvement in the accusation of him helping kidnap the two priest. The priest’s claim is, because the Pope never endorsed Liberation Theology, he basically had the two priest killed. It is really ridicules to even suggest that, when by all accounts it he who had them released and not killed.
Fiat Voluntas Tua.
@mamajen While we’re waiting for Father Z, we can still look at what he’s already written about the former Cardinal Bergoglio. Apparently, he was an occasional lunch guest of Father Z in Rome: https://wdtprs.com/2009/12/whos-the-important-one/
I think we’ve been blessed as well. I think he will be another Pope of Christian Unity.
poohbear, I have been around Jesuits all my life and I can assure you that there are many brave, holy men in the Society who suffer much. We can’t conclude anything about Pope Francis based on his membership except that he remained faithful to his vows, which he must have first professed some time around 1960 (he entered the Society in 1958).
I, too, am appalled by the howling coming from some of our traditionalists. Oh my goodness,people. Calm down. He is a social conservative–strongly pro-life, strongly for traditional marriage, etc–he strongly believes and teaches what we believe! Give the man a few days before you start FREAKING OUT.
Just one brief correction. There have been several non-European Popes before this. St Peter, for instance; but also Constantine, John V, Anicetus, a few others.
I’m thrilled! – I hardly dared hoped for a Francis, but we have one. The new Pope seemed so lovely in his humility and warmth there on the balcony. If he got as many votes as people are saying he did in the last conclave, then the cardinals must know something we don’t about his fitness for the job. If he is holy and really loves and works for the poor and for justice, that is half of the New Evangelization right there. Remember Paul VI said the world listens above all to teachers who are also witnesses.
I wonder if maybe Scola or Ouellet weren’t elected simply because they are so close to Benedict/ Ratzinger. To have a Pope who is too tight with his living predecessor could have made some cardinals uncomfortable about the possible influence of the former pope on the new.
Yes, already shades of Ratzinger and the Hitler Youth. The press seemed to want a Latin American Pope and now they discover he’s orthodox, they will try and shoot him down. I take it the claims against him and the dictatorship are exaggerated – but we’ll have to wait and see.
I was really surprised he didn’t chant the blessing on the balcony, but just said it – but it’s not a big deal. I think we have a Pope with a mind of his own.
Viva Papa Francesco!
The rash and uncharitable commentary from some here is heart breaking, sad, and a cause for scandal. I will pray for all of us. Now, I liked him the first time I set eyes on him. His humility, his calm composure, his quiet, amid the joy that I saw on so many of the faithful, I thanked Jesus with gratitude that we are no longer without a spiritual father. I look forward to getting to know him as I plan to read up on him and follow him closely, God willing.
I trust in what the Holy Spirit has entrusted to the Cardinals in choosing this simple man. I trust in their wisdom and the trepidation with which they elected Pope Francis for the sake of the Church throughout the world. May our eyes and our hearts and our minds be open as our Lord Jesus Christ will see fit to reveal, IN HIS OWN TIME, the gifts Pope Francis will bring to all concerned.
May our Lady watch over her little son, now Pope Francis, to whom I pledge my fidelity and my love and my prayers.
St. Ignatius of Loyola, pray for our Holy Father Pope Francis and us!
St. Francis Xavier, pray for our Holy Father Pope Francis and for us!
St. Francis of Assisi, pray for our Holy Father Pope Francis and for us!
Ad maiorem Dei gloriam!
Amen
Actually, reading between the lines of his role in the dirty war, I actually think I’ve gained even more respect for him!
Vivant Papa Francisco!
(I used Google translate since I don’t know a lick of latin, so forgive me!)
“Now, I liked him the first time I set eyes on him.”
Me too. I don’t know much about him. I would have preferred a pope more in the mold of Benedict XVI insofar as traditional papal regalia and traditional liturgy go, but he seems like a good man and he gives off a kind of personal warmth that I instinctively trust. All in all, I’m not jumping for joy, but I’m happy. We have a pope, he’s orthodox, and he seems like a genuinely kind and humble man. I smiled when he stepped onto the balcony and waved and began his public pontificate with an almost casual “good evening.”
Trust in God. As others have said, 77 cardinals voted for him in a little over a day. That tells us something right there. This is time to move forward in faith, not a time to panic and exercise rash judgement. Oremus pro pontifice.
I looked up his episcopal motto, “miserando atque eligendo”. I found it in a commentary by St. Bede, about Jesus looking with pity at the publican, and choosing him to follow him. Very humble and fitting considering that Bergoglio has been chosen to be the Church’s new Pope! I’m very happy and praying!
@maryh – Thank you very much for that link–I’m new enough here that I didn’t think to even search the archives for something like that. Maybe I will end up being excited about this selection yet :)
“Incidentally, for those whose Spanish is pretty good, Cdl. Bergoglio’s letters and homilies are online and worth seeking out. He speaks ceaselessly about moving, actively, towards a life-altering encounter with the living Christ. ”
maryh says:
13 March 2013 at 5:42 pm
https://wdtprs.com/2009/12/whos-the-important-one/
I thank you for the link with regards to our Holy Father. I know we are in good hands!
John,
We’ve had tons of non-European popes. Peter was a n0n-European. The only reasons we started having Italian popes in the first place was that a) Rome is in Italy, and b) at first the Romans were killing them off so fast we had to get them locally to keep one. When things improved a bit we had Middle Eastern ones and we even had African ones. Google Pope St. Gelasius and Pope St. Miltiades.
Oremus pro Pontifice!
A humble suggestion to readers of this blog. Why don’t we all take the opportunity of all this excitement about our Church to get just one friend or colleague to come to Mass. Just one person. With prayer and perseverance we can do it. If enough of us do it, what a start to his Pontificate and what a springtime for the Church! Go on….spread the word.
Behind-the-scene comments by Card. Dolan: http://www.video.mediaset.it/video/tgcom24/ultimi_arrivi/378332/il-cardinale-dolan-racconta-i-retroscena-del-conclave.html
As the Cardinals were making a toast to the new Pope, Bergoglio said to them “May God forgive you!” :-)
I too am excited about Papa Francisco.
It’s been apparent the Jesuits have been in need of a heroic reformer in their ranks for some time. Never occurred to me it could be “their own” pope to do so, but here’s hoping. They were a great order once, and a credit to the Church, and if they returned to St. Ignatius’ original vision, could be so again.
My biggest concern: he appears to be a genuinely kind and humble man. I hope there is enough steel underneath the kindness to oversee the much-needed Curial stable sweeping.
I’ve just read a few Argentine reactions. They mention the then Archbishop Bergoglio as very outspoken against the pro-abortion and pro-gay “marriage” stances of the Kirchner government. The Kirchners did not like what he had to say about their policies. He also harshly criticized the government as responsible for the terrible poverty Argentina has suffered.
Having a Jesuit as Pope, it will be interesting to see the new interplay between the Society of Jesus and the Vatican.
I hope he is able to clean up the curial problems.
Thank you dear Lord for giving us a new Holy Father. God bless Pope Francis and help me always to be obedient to him and to our holy Church. Protect him against those who wish to tear him down, both on the left and the right.
I admit I was flummoxed by this choice, and I still don’t know what to think. But to quote a brother priest, when we were seminarians: “isn’t that why they call it faith?”
Now, our lacrimose friends at Rorate have already weighed the papacy of Francis and found it wanting. Poor man! His pontificate is dubbed a failure in less than six hours! Seriously, however, they have cited some concerns; go there if you want to see them.
So, there’s that.
Now let’s consider some other things.
> The reform that Pope Benedict initiated was not a top-down affair. This was by design. Perhaps now we see the wisdom of that. No; when Pope Benedict set about to effect a hermeneutic of continuity and recover tradition, he didn’t do it via mandates; he did it via one, stunning permission: freeing the older form of the Mass. Unless Pope Francis repeals or restricts it (which I think unlikely), it will have its effect.
> The cardinals who chose him include a lot of men Benedict chose carefully. The notion that they were repudiating Benedict seems awfully dubious. Why not seek less improbable explanations first? Perhaps they chose him because they see different challenges from eight years ago, and this is the man the group, collectively, could support to best deal with those challenges. Namely, governance. The cardinals who voted for him may well think that the causes advanced by Benedict will continue forward well enough, while Francis does other things that need to be done–and which Benedict seems to have thought needed to be done.
> There is a question about liturgy. Our traditionalist friends fear Pope Francis will be terrible on the liturgy. Well, to cite a phrase I like from a character in “The Green Mile,” “I don’t want to chew that food till I have to.” Let’s wait and see.
> Then there is his choice of name. Francis. If this is about Assisi, then think deeply about that model. Not the shallow, flower-child idea, but the real Saint Francis. Think long and hard about what he stood for, what he did. “Rebuild my church” comes to mind.
> Finally, let’s suppose our gloomy friends are right. Now let’s consider history. Paul VI was probably the least satisfying pope to traditionalists in recent memory. Yet he gave us Humanae Vitae, one of the most stellar (and courageous) actions of a pope in a long time. It gives me chills to think of that episode in our history, and how the hand of Providence was at work.
Re: tzard
As for what I’m reading – I’m probably going to abstain from comm boxes for a while – some of the comments I’m reading from Catholics are too disturbing. Antipope? Really?
I agree. And one person’s incessant slandering of the Holy Father is utterly disgraceful. I stopped reading partway down because reading some of THESE replies are enough to “make one puke”. I hope Fr. Z get’s back here quickly and deletes this entire thread.
Fr Fox: Amen, I was shocked at how quickly the folks at Rorate have turned on the Pope. I read their concerns and they concern me as well. However I’ve read more saying he is outspoken regarding gay marriage/abortion etc. Rorate seems to think he’ll be quiet on the subject.
Really I think the Curia needs cleaning up and he’s the man to do it. So what if nothing new liturgically is accomplished? Maybe that was Benedict’s job, to focus on the liturgy, while this Pope will focus on admin tasks.
Either way, we’ll see.
@Fr Martin Fox
I went over to Rorate Caeli earlier to gauge the “traditionalist” response to this election, and I was utterly turned off (actually disgusted) by what I found there. How disappointing it was.
Like you said, this is what faith is all about! There are so many different opinions about our new pope that I don’t know what to believe. I have no choice but to just wait and see what he does. Like you, I am very hopeful.
I was curious, is anyone aware of how many approved Extraordinary Form Masses are offered in the Buenos Aires Archdiocese? Surely the Holy Father’s generous spirit extends also to those clamoring for their rights to assist at the EF Mass under Summorum Pontificum?
God Bless
I’m wondering if the troll above is SSPX and thinks the door is well and truly closed and he’s on the outside. In that matter (and in that one ONLY; his other statements are shameful) he may have a point.
“So what if nothing new liturgically is accomplished? Maybe that was Benedict’s job, to focus on the liturgy, while this Pope will focus on admin tasks.”
That fits in with the saying “God sends us the Pope we need when we need him”. We need Blessed John Paul the Great when we did. We needed Pope Benedict XVI when we did. And apparently God says we need Pope Francis right now. Viva il Papa!
Take a DEEP BREATH y’all. God knows what He is doing. You don’t have to understand. You just need to trust. If it happens it is because the good God allows it. Settle down. Obviously God let this happen b/c we NEED it. So, hoist up your cross and keep moving. God bless Pope Francis I ! DEO Gratias!!!
Some thoughts come to my mind about or new Holy Father:
– His background with the Eastern Rite, could this mean another step closer to unity with the East? Also, with the concerns with his liturgical background, I would think being familiar with the Eastern Rites would be a good influence here, just speculating.
– His name, Francis. Rebuild my Church!
-The “Dirty War?” I read he was accused of helping to kidnap two LIBERAL Jesuit Priests. Let’s be honest, that’s crossed all of our minds once or twice.
– Oh yeah, he’s a Jesuit. From what I can tell he looks like one of the good ones. Hopefully his example will help to reform the order. Plus, think of all the protestant conspiracy theorists freaking out about a Jesuit Pope. :D
I’m excited to see how Pope Francis’ pontificate plays out. Let us pray for him, and remember that God guides the Church, and that there is a ditch on either side of the road. :)
Geoffrey, I could not agree with you more. “God says we need Pope Francis right now. Viva il Papa!” That line is in my prayers tonight. Thank you for pointing this out.
It seems as though a lot of Catholics of what might be termed a traditionalist leaning aren’t happy tonight. I offer no comment on their specific concerns, but consider this… When people complained about Pope Benedict, people on this site and others were quick to remind everyone that he was the successor to Peter and that we should be trusting in the Holy Spirit. My point is obvious. Either Catholics accept a Pope and submit themselves to where he may lead us, or they don’t. If they don’t, then they might as well become evangelicals or SSPX or whatever takes their fancy…
O.Possum – your name truly means “Oh, I can!” as opposed to someone playing dead.
1) Every Jesuit I know over the age of 70 is a well-schooled, holy man, who is up to any task.
2) If Benedict XVI, Bishop Emeritus of Rome, was the ‘pope of Christian unity’, then I do predict that Pope Francis will be the one who will lay all of the groundwork for full inter-communion between Rome and Constantinople.
3) The more I read about Pope Francis’s humility, the more I am convinced that the Holy Spirit not only filled the Sistine Chapel with His grace, but He is spreading that grace to the whole world. We are truly a blessed church with this man at our head.
Here is a link of Cdl. Bergoglio celebrating Mass in October 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY
CBS briefly showed Cardinal George after the announcement. He didn’t seem too happy, but maybe he was just tired.
acardnal, we might as well get used to it.
Back to the future.
acardnal & BobP:
So long as Msgr. Marini remains in place, we should not need to fear such papal liturgies in the future.
Blessed JPII trusted his MC (for better or for worse) to take care of papal liturgies. If His Holiness Pope Francis does the same, we should be just fine.
I really think it very poor form to instantly dump on our new Holy Father, some within minutes of the event, and even now before he is even properly installed. I am partial to the Extraordinary Form but I do not expect the Church to revolve around my preferences. There is no changing the Motu Proprio, there is no going back to where we were. So I am ready to express my joy at the election of this new Holy Father, and say that I look forward to following him in prayer and being encouraged by his words and actions. And, as to the link of the outdoor Mass posted, look, it’s an outdoor YOUTH Mass, similar to World Youth Day. Get real.
I don’t remember reading about our new Pope except for Fr. Z’s post a couple of years ago, so that tempered my initial disappointment. However, my 91-year-old mother, who has never believed my tales of heterodox Jesuits is delighted, and thinks that since he’s from Argentina we can call him “Papa Pancho”. That seems a bit too familiar, but is well meant.
I’m very hopeful. God bless the new pope and us, his flock.
The first thing that he did was to call Benedict Emeritus on the phone and then asked for prayers for him even before he asked for prayers for himself. Then he enjoined all present to immediately pray the traditional prayers of the Hail Mary and the Our Father for the protection of Benedict. How can he be the anti-Benedict?
He is comfortable in his own skin like his 2 predecessors and he is totally orthodox in his views. His liturgical preferences may be different but that doesn’t mean he will undo everything Benedict has done.
He seems transparently holy. I am certain that he will be a blessing to the Church.
God bless Papa Francesco!
Well said, anna 6!
To those of you who have restored a sense of calmness and reason on this thread: thank you.
To those lobbing spit balls, like petulant 12-year-old boys, at the new Holy Father: grow up.
On a serious note, if you really thought the barque of Peter was taking a nose dive into the ocean, would you truly respond by bitching on a blog? Really, you would? Because that is just sad.
Myself, I would haul my patooshka down to an adoration chapel, shut my yap, and earnestly beseech the Good God to have mercy on us.
Geeze.
Is anyone in Rome that has seen Fr. Z today? Is he okay? Has he tweeted since the announcement?
Well said… We’re either Catholic or we’re not. We can’t pick and chose. To do so either makes us liberals or SSPX. Neither is a good look!
I just read this entire comment thread, and it’s amazing how little faith some people have. Even if — and I don’t believe this for a moment — even if Jorge Mario Bergoglio has been as evil as the folks at Rorate claim, from the time he reached the Age of Reason until 2 PM today, can you really judge his future papal actions by his past actions? If you believe that past sins make future virtue impossible, then you do not understand the grace of Christ.
Happily, I have already verified that many of the claims made above are false.
But at the end of this long thread, I did read the most delightful comment I have seen on a blog in ages. O Possum wrote:
@kford I think the first post from the front page has been deleted, so Fr. Z is around :)
I agree, that was pretty darn funny.
Honestly I found that outdoor mass to be rather inoffensive as far as those things go. I didn’t see any weird incense bowls (but there was incense, yay!), no liturgical dancers (unless you count the song leaders), I didn’t notice any altar girls, and the altar servers and priests were for the most part very reverent. It’s no TLM, but I didn’t notice any liturgical abuses going on.
@anna 6 says:
13 March 2013 at 8:48 pm
“The first thing that he did was to call Benedict Emeritus on the phone and then asked for prayers for him even before he asked for prayers for himself.”
It is being reported he will meet with Benedict XVI tomorrow Thursday at Castel Gandolfo. The idea of that historic event makes me so happy and so grateful to our Lord’s goodness!
You can read that here…in the third paragraph:
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/
Cardinal Egan was interviewed on NBC today, and he said “he knows Pope Francis well and that he is a disciple of JPII.” That was edifying to know as well. EWTN reports he did some programs for them, a few years back, all in Spanish. One of the EWTN programs he did was on the Church Fathers and Fr. Mitch (a Jesuit himself) marveled at how Pope Francis was able to speak about St. Augustine in layman terms that the average Spanish speaker could understand .
Now, I don’t know about any of you, but these are wonderful gifts that have been revealed as of today.
@Emilio III:
” my 91-year-old mother, who has never believed my tales of heterodox Jesuits is delighted, and thinks that since he’s from Argentina we can call him “Papa Pancho”. That seems a bit too familiar, but is well meant.”
I am fluent in Spanish and will refer to Pope Francis in private and with great affection, as “Papa Panchito. ^^
Kford:
I wouldn’t worry. Remember that it was about 8 pm or later (local time) when the new holy father departed; so at that point, our venerable blog-host had to make his way out of the mobbed piazza. I’m guessing he needed some nourishment, and most likely he was with friends. It’s not hard to imagine he had other things keeping him busy until rather late, and he went to bed.
And there’s always an inability to get a signal!
Nearly random thoughts and queries (of varying weight):
The Dutch Monarchy has been contrasted with the Papacy… Curiously, not only will Queen Beatrix’s renunciation of her office be followed (God willing) by a Dutch Queen from Argentina (as was expected), but Pope Benedict’s renunciation of his office has been followed by a Pope from Argentina!
What is known of Pope Francis’s concern for (just treatment of) (1) the citizens of the Falklands, (2) the Patagonian Welsh(-descended)?
Pope Francis has repeatedly quoted de Lubac approvingly in the past: how edifying and/or creepy is de Lubac?
Pope Francis has rather breezily applied the terms ‘coprophilia’ and ‘coprophagia’ in the recent past: dear reader, wipe that… grin off your face and suggest what one ought to make of this.
Wasn’t ‘Francis’ an unusual name when it was bestowed upon St. Francis of Assisi? Presumably subsequent generations of Francises – including St. Francis Xavier and St. Francis Borgia – are named after St. Francis of Assisi. A name-choice with a rich history!
Presumably there is not an additional ‘Franciscan’ play via Balaam with a certain film series of the 1950s…
Pope Francis has been compared to the literary-minded Pope John Paul I: what is known about his opinion concerning his old-first-name namesake, Borges?
Actually, if you just dig a LITTLE deeper into the story you’ll find that has actions in the dirty war were really very heroic. He apparently saved a lot of lives at great risk to himself.
@maryh,
Thank you for sharing that link from Fr. Z. When I read his account of meeting him and the article excerpt that followed, it increased the excitement and joy I felt when Pope Francis was presented as Pope.
Let us all pray for Pope Francis.
As for the story that he turned his back on the woman who was five months pregnant, just take another look at it and consider:
Pope Francis assigned the care of the pregnant mother to a monsignor, and she didn’t have the child until after he assigned the monsignor to help. Why, then, is it that implausible to believe that he didn’t realize that the child was adopted? She hadn’t even had the baby yet when he assigned the monsignor to help.
We all need to remember to read between the lines. But in any case, my concern was not over the Holy Father’s personal holiness but rather the wisdom of electing a pope who has a scandal in his past (there IS a scandal in his past, regardless of whether or not its his fault) when the Church is trying to work through various scandals.
On the other hand, it can be seen as an excellent statement to the world that the Church won’t be cowed by false media accusations.
I found this interesting post from Fr. Z. from a few years ago….
https://wdtprs.com/2009/12/whos-the-important-one/
@UncleBlobb,
maryh shared that post above – but it’s such a wonderful image of Cardinal Bergoglio that I think it’s entirely worth sharing again. I think it was one of the items that restored some sanity to this thread of replies, and hopefully your re-posting of it will help keep things that way. As several people have commented, its rather appalling to see how people are willing to condemn his pontificate within hours of his election.
Fr. Martin-
True enough. It is curious how many of us, to whom others look for guidance about matters Catholic, immediately look to good, holy people like you and Fr. Z at times like this. One can almost picture the thousands of heads that immediately turned in Fr.’s “virtual” direction the moments we heard Pope Francis’ name announced. I fielded text messages from students all day asking what I “thought”. I can only imagine the intensity of that feeling for priests like you both!
I was really surprised he didn’t chant the blessing on the balcony, but just said it
He only has one lung, so chanting things and sung Masses may be difficult next to impossible due to only 50% lung capacity.
Attaboy, Fr. Z!
I just saw your new blog banner. It made me smile and tear up. Now I can go to bed. Never underestimate the power of your presence for so many of us! God bless!
AMGD-
kford
Yes, I second kford and offer my thanks and prayers to you, Fr. Z, for your tireless work, and for the comfort you bring me and so many readers.
Venerator said:
Pope Francis has repeatedly quoted de Lubac approvingly in the past: how edifying and/or creepy is de Lubac?
Well, others may find fault with de Lubac, but I remember liking his work a lot when I was in the seminary. One of the things he would do is mine the works of the Fathers to find what they said about the things we believe. One of profound things attributed to him goes like this: “The Church gives the Eucharist; the Eucharist makes the Church.” I cannot recall, just now, which of his books is summarized by that statement, which–while attributed to him, I think is actually someone else’s summary of what he said. In any case, I can’t find any fault with such a statement.
Fr. Fox,
what about Teilhard de Chardin? Can you find any fault in his writings?
Mightyduk:
Yes. Why do you associate Teilhard de Chardin with Henri de Lubac?
God Bless Pope Francis! We are indeed blessed to have him as our Holy Father.
As Jesus said one time, “Fear not, I go before you always.”
Fr. Fox,
Thank you for your de Lubac response! I have a lingering sense of unease about him, which I know was stronger in the past, but I am not sure any more how much of his work I read directly, and how much I was influenced by (fairly detailed) discussions of quotations from him on specific topics.
Obviously the scholarly – and generally coscientious – thing to do, is try reading (more of) him (again)!
Oops!: “conscientious”!
On my last (fairly-light-heartedly-intended) query, I see the Catholic Herald has reprinted an October 2005 article by José Mariá Poirier (editor of the Argentinian Catholic magazine Criterio) in which he says, ” Bergoglio has never hidden a passion for literature” – and tantalizingly provides no further details!
Rorate has calmed down considerably today. I think comment moderation had been switched off for a while yesterday due to the volume of comments.
Fr Martin,
While I have not read these works personally, it’s my understanding that they are attempts by De Lubac to rehabilitate Teilhard de Chardin. I’d say, given De Lubac’s history of magisterial rebukes, authoritatively by Pius XII in Humani generis, most orthodox Catholics would find something to fault with him.
Teilhard de Chardin: the man and his meaning. Translated by Rene Hague. 1st American ed. New York:Hawthorn Books, 1965.
The religion of Teilhard de Chardin. Translated by Rene Hague. New York: Desclee Co.,1967.
Teilhard explained. Translated by Anthony Buono. New York: Paulist Press,1968.
The Eternal Feminine; a study on the poem by Teilhard de Chardin. Translated by Rene Hague. 1st U.S. ed. New York: Harper & Row,1971.
For the sake of thoroughness: the book I have seen quoted is “Méditation sur l’Église, by Henri De Lubac” – in the 24 Feb. 2012 ‘Vatican Insider’ and (presumably also, given verbal echoes) the 2007 ’30 Giorni’ interviews.
(Tangentally, I know Rene Hague as a pains-takingly careful annotator of the poetry of David Jones.)