An APCOM story has Card. Ricard of Bordeaux saying that Summorum Pontificum produces "neither winners nor losers".
Sound familiar?
Other highlights of the interview with Card. Ricard in the French weekly Famille Chretienne. With my interlinear comments.
1. The Pope knew that some people would worry about this.
And he did it anyway. Let us remember that in ancient times, the doctor didn’t stop cutting just because the patient was screaming and begging him to stop. This is for our own good.
2. Not all priests are adequately prepared for this. They lack formation.
Priests are smart. We can learn. I will teach any priest how to say the older Mass and help him with Latin. This is not astrophysics.
3. Books are lacking.
Print new ones? We have the resources of entire conferences of bishops to back this initiative if the spirit of this MP is embraced.
4. Priests will have to prepare two homilies.
How ’bout… make ’em a little shorter?
5. The Cardinal is worried that people in general and priests won’t understand why this was done.
Hmmm… tough one. If only someone in a position of authority could speak to people from, say, a pulpit, publish bulletins and articles, speak with the media, hold conferencs and classes. Hmmm… who could do such a thing.
6. The Pope’s motive was reconciliation.
I hope that means also that the opponents of the MP are now reconciled to the idea that it is reality. Seriously, this is not just a matter of arguing and proposing laws. This is a matter of opening hearts. We must work now to open hearts on all sides. This is everyone’s job.
7. The Cardinal is not worried about the authority of bishops being diminished.
I think we all know that this was the real problem in most cases of opposition.
8. Parish priests will bear the brunt of the new work this creates.
What’s new? I hope and pray that lay people will not put their priests in impossible situations. That they will treat the priests well and keep the kvetching to a minimum.
9. This document will create difficulites for the followers of the SSPX
Nothing new there. But the door is open. People of good will will step to the threshold.
CARD.RICARD: MESSA LATINO,TEMO INCOMPRENSIONI SU MOTIVAZIONI
Il presidente dei vescovi francesi: "Né vincitori né perdenti"Roma, 7 lug. (Apcom) – Dopo la pubblicazione di un Motu proprio che liberalizza la messa in latino, in una intervista concessa a l’agenzia stampa francese ‘I.Media’ e al settimanale francese ‘Famille Chretienne’, il cardinale Jean-Pierre Ricard, presidente della Conferenza episcopale francese, confida la sua "paura che le motivazioni reali del Papa non siano molto comprese", ed esprime le sue inquietudini quanto all’applicazione "pratica" del Motu Proprio. Il porporato afferma però che questo documento pontificio non fa "né vincitori né perdenti".
Il cardianal Ricard ammette che "sul piano pratico" ci potranno essere delle difficoltà nell’applicazione del Motu proprio. "Oggi molti sacerdoti sono spesso sovraccarichi di lavoro", afferma. "Molti di loro non hanno ricevuto la formazione adatta per celebrare secondo l’antico rito. Non sempre hanno i libri liturgici antichi. Senza contare che, poiché le letture non sono le stesse nei due messali, dovranno preparare due omelie"."Dovremo inoltre gestire le reazioni dell’opinione pubblica in generale e quella dei sacerdoti in particolare", aggiunge il presidente dei vescovi francesi a ‘I.Media’ e ‘Famille chretienne’. "Ho anche paura che le motivazioni reali del Papa non siano ben comprese".
Il cardinal Ricard, che in passato non ha mancato di esprimere le preoccupazioni dei vescovi francesi sull’apertura di Benedetto XVI ai tradizionalisti, spiega così le intenzioni papali: "Il punto che mi tocca di più è la volontà di riconciliazione espressa da Benedetto XVI". Per il porporato "è la preoccupazione fondamentale del Papa. E’ importante che si riconcilino i fedeli cattolici affezionati a posizioni diverse, gli uni alla riforma del Concilio, gli altri alla forma antica del rito romano. Più che alla tolleranza, il Papa fa appello alla comprensione e all’accettazione reciproca degli uni e degli altri. Ha detto ad ognuno che deve fare una parte del cammino. Nella decisione del Papa non ci sono né vincitori né perdenti".
Quanto al ruolo dei vescovi, Ricard afferma: "Non ho alcuna inquietudine quanto alla diminuzione della mia responsabilità per quanto riguarda l’applicazione del Motu proprio". Secondo l’arcivescovo di Bordeaux, peraltro, "toccherà al sacerdote decidere nel caso in cui un gruppo di sensibilità tradizionalista si manifesti nella sua parrocchia. Ma dato il gran carico di lavoro che pesa sulle spalle di molti di loro, penso che sarà più facile trovare soluzioni a livello di diocesi".
Il cardinal Ricard esprime, infine, la sua opinione sui lefebvriani. Il Motu proprio è rivolto a loro? "Non è detto esplicitamente in nessuna parte del testo", risponde il porporato. "Ma in modo più generale, Benedetto XVI pensa anche alla Fraternità san Pio X. Ce l’ha detto a voce (nella riunione con alcuni vescovi che si è svolta in vaticano la settimana scorsa, ndr.). Ma a mio avviso questo Motu proprio creerà loro difficoltà, in particolar modo per tutto ciò che riguarda l’autorità della riforma liturgica che i preti e i fedeli di questa fraternità rifiutano di riconoscere".
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Father,
I hope this isn’t too off-topic; and I know you’ve had to close down the “Ask Father” Question Box, which makes me hesitant to ask you to take on anything more. But do you think you might have a Q&A forum for the traditional Mass, for those of us who are interested but have what we’re afraid might be stupid questions about it? Our own parish just last month started having the traditional Mass in the afternoons, and there are more than a few of us who attend but hide in the back pews, unsure of everything and wishing we could ask things that seem too trivial or foolish to bring up to a regular massgoer.
It reminds me of my 16 year old when I ask him to do a chore. Take out the garbage? Clean the dishes? Everything is a problem. Everything is difficult. Too many things to do. Busy schedule. Whine, whine, whine.
Ask him if he wants to go to the mall?
Suddenly the schedules clear, he is in the car with it started before you can say “shopping spree”, and all obstacles can be overcome to make it happen and “git er done”. Easy-peasy-Japaneasy.
This hierarch needs to realize how purely adolescent his objections sound. Where there is a will, there is a way.
And that way is with Peter.
In ICXC,
Gordo
o.h.,
I felt the same way when I first starting attending Traditional Liturgies. The trick is to just watch the congregation, follow along in the red booklets at first, and don’t be ashamed or embarassed at all. The people who have been going to such masses for over 20 years are not “holier than thou” for having done so, eventhough some of them act like it. Pay attention to when people kneel or stand, when the strike their breasts, at the same time as the altar boys, and read the red in you missalette. Within a few months, you’ll know the rubrics to the Tridentine Mass better than the Novus Ordo.
I felt very much excluded at first, like I do when I walk into a Ukrainian parish, but remember that you aren’t excluded. There’s one Roman Rite and you were baptised into it just as they were. I’d recommend sticking with the red missalettes pinted by the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei. If the popers are printed on paper, use that and reffer to it when the missalette says to. Once you get familiar with the Mass, after a few weeks, you might consider buying your own missal, which will be much asier to navigate when you know what’s going on. It feels foreign at first, but with time it will start to feel more Roman than anything you grew up with.
Just my two cents.
o.h.,
I felt the same way when I first starting attending Traditional Liturgies. The trick is to just watch the congregation, follow along in the red booklets at first, and don’t be ashamed or embarassed at all. The people who have been going to such masses for over 20 years are not “holier than thou” for having done so, eventhough some of them act like it. Pay attention to when people kneel or stand, when the strike their breasts, at the same time as the altar boys, and read the red in you missalette. Within a few months, you’ll know the rubrics to the Tridentine Mass better than the Novus Ordo.
I felt very much excluded at first, like I do when I walk into a Ukrainian parish, but remember that you aren’t excluded. There’s one Roman Rite and you were baptised into it just as they were. I’d recommend sticking with the red missalettes pinted by the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei. If the popers are printed on paper, use that and reffer to it when the missalette says to. Once you get familiar with the Mass, after a few weeks, you might consider buying your own missal, which will be much asier to navigate when you know what’s going on. It feels foreign at first, but with time it will start to feel more Roman than anything you grew up with.
Just my two cents.
That seems to be it exactly, Gordo: unbelievable, isn’t it? Still, today am not spending much time over all of that.
2. Not all priests are adequately prepared for this. They lack formation.
It seems that the good Cardinal is admitting that he and his fellow French bishops have a poorly formed presbyterate.
Gee, I wonder whose fault that is.
o.h.: Sorry about the ASK FATHER Question Box. This is a matter of great sorrow for me. However, I lack the necessary skill to fix the problem and I can’t seem to motivate the technical support into action. Kindly pray for this.
I will think about a way to field questions.
I called it Ricard’s rearguard action. What absurd picayune ‘problems’ he invents! Does he intend
to wage guerilla warfare`over this? What about where he says “the priests will have too much on their
shoulders already without this, so it will probably work better if we can work this all out at the
diocesan level”??? Ah-ha!…In fairness, if you check the French bishops’ conference site, they have
posted both the MP and the Pope’s letter in French, along with a 3-question ‘primer’ – compare it
to the 20+10 questions on the USCCB site.
I wonder if this MP will do anything to improve ths situation at Niafles. Last I checked, the bishop and mayor were forcefully removing the FSSP priest and his congregation, introduced a new priest and turned the altar around ASAP. The FSSP priest and his congregation are now saying Mass in the woods. Unfortunately, they’ll have to wait until September to get their parish back, and by then it might be too late. Sad story.
dear father…
Please, can you do something about the Reuters article by Phil Stewart? It is peddling the worst kind of
misinformation about the Jewish question. I can’t stand the sheer journalistic irresponsibility of not
getting their facts straight!
9. This document will create difficulites for the followers of the SSPX
Nothing new there. But the door is open. People of good will will step to the threshold.
I don’t know about difficulties; Bp. Fellay praised the motu proprio! And even Bp. Williamson has sounded optimistic.
An APCOM story has Card. Ricard of Bordeaux saying that Summorum Pontificum produces “neither winners nor losers”.
I don’t feel like a loser! In fact, I would have to say that this is one of the highlights of my short (nine-year) life as a Catholic.
Hey Father, I made this video this morning. Hope you like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMu-F4M1ojw
Our blessed Pope Benedict may soon become the first beady-eyed Saint! God bless His holiness Pope Benedict! Viva il Papa!
3. Books are lacking.
I wonder.
How many pastors in the 60’s put the
old books in the book case and used the new ones,
but if the current pastor looks in the rectory book
case he might find . . .
Andrew: Marvelous! Very creative stuff.
You folks impress me.
FYI…. No book is needed initially.
The whole Missal can be downloaded at http://www.musicasacra.com and it could be temporarily bound until an actual Missale is procured.
9. “This document will create difficulites for the followers of the SSPX
Nothing new there. But the door is open. People of good will will step to the threshold”
Thanks to archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of St Piusd X, there are priests in full communion with eht Holy See who are able and qualified to offer the Traditional Latin Mass. Thank you, Archbishop Lefebvre for passing on the Tradition you received, especially during the years when the 1062 Missal was suppressed (i.e.before 1984)
chiara
9. “This document will create difficulites for the followers of the SSPX
Nothing new there. But the door is open. People of good will will step to the threshold”
Thanks to archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of St Piusd X, there are priests in full communion with eht Holy See who are able and qualified to offer the Traditional Latin Mass. Thank you, Archbishop Lefebvre for passing on the Tradition you received, especially during the years when the 1962 Missal was suppressed (i.e.before 1984)
chiara
There is a piece in the BBC’s website claiming that, according tho the Vaticanist
John Allen the derrestriction of the Tridentine [Use] won’t have much impact
because 40 years after the Council few priests will be able to read it, given
that it is all in Latin. In light of that I want to ask is this:
(i) don’t seminarists nowadays learn Latin in the
seminary? I may be totally misinformed here, but my understanding was that their
training in Latin had been reduced from eight to two years but still existed,
and
(ii) can a seminarist nowadays receive the Sacred Order of the Priesthood without
knowing at least how to celebrate Mass according to the Pauline Books in Latin? I
mean, everybody knows that Latin has vanished in 99% of parishes that use the
Latin Books, and that priests normally say the whole Mass in the vernacular, but
given that the celebration in the Latin language is the normative rule even for
the Pauline Books (cf. Sacr. Conc., art. 36, par. 1), aren’t seminarists tested
to see if, apart from being able to recite the prayes of the Mass in the
vernacular, if they are also able to say it in Latin, the normative language? I
mean, can a seminarist be ordained who cannot celebrate in Latin using the
Pauline Missal?
(iii) if not, how will that generation of priests who cannot understand Latin
be promoted to the Episcopacy? Can a Latin Rite bishop not know Latin? Aren’t
debates in Ecumenical Councils conducted in Latin? How will such a man take part?
I remember watching the relator general of the Synod of Bishops read
a report in Latin to the assembly in the presence of the Pope during the last
Synod. Are there Cardinals who are ignorant of Latin (I mean, the idea of such a
person being elected Pope is a terrible tought)?
(iv) Most importantly: Now that the Tridentine Books no longer require Indult
but are part of the normative law as an extraordinary expression of the one Roman
Rite, avaliable to the whole Church, and not any more only to isolated groups in
need of special permission from the Bishop as in the past, shouldn’t seminaries teach the celebration according to the Use of 1962 in parallel to classes teaching candidates to the priesthood to celebrate according to the Use of 2002?
Oh. I must have done something wrong. Sorry. Never intended to highlight the
whole of the previous post. Only parts of it. I must have forgotten to close
the bold after the first paragraph.
Yes, Latin is still required…by law. But few bishops and seminary rectors seem to be enforcing it. I can’t speak to other seminaries, but at the second largest seminary in the USA — Mount Angel Seminary (Oregon) — while Latin is offered, it is not required. And none of the seminary conventual Masses are celebrated in Latin. (If a seminarian even suggested such a ludicrous idea, he’d be dismissed for being “too rigid”.)
My own bishop doesn’t require proficiency in Latin of his seminarians before beginning the study of Theology, nor does he require it prior to (or even after) ordination. And he’s regarded far and wide as one of the more “conservative” bishops in the US. Go figure.
We still have a long way to go.
Andrew: May I ask what is the name of the organ piece you used for your YouTube video? It’s just awesome. And certainly puts everything into perspective!
Thanks.
Comments of his eminence will in some respect provoke
on my part language not repeatable in polite company.
Do they think we are all stupid and unteachable? The
vast edifice that was Catholicism prior to 1970 was not
maintained through ignorance but scholarship. Books can be printed ,
classes taught, the rich treasure trove of tradition reexamend by all not simply the clergy.
JPG
Fairfield
1. Historically, Latin has been studied before theology, either during the two years of Philosophy or during high school or high school seminary.
2. American Bishops have not obligated seminarians to study Latin simply because the Vatican has not insisted on it.
3. The Motu Proprio therefore must be followed by implementation, not only in parishes but also in Catholic education.
4. I agree that there is general deficiency in Latin among US priests, I would say that there are at least 500 priests in the US who right now are proficient enough to say mass in Latin.
BTW, I have never met an Italian priest who had not studied Latin.
prof. B:
(i) don’t seminarists nowadays learn Latin in the seminary?
I can’t speak for all US seminaries, but I would say No. In most Italian seminaries, some Latin is taught. However, I think it may be too late to start with Latin in major seminary. It is far better to have Latin in place before major seminary. Latin must be in the tool box from the start.
I would stress, however, that the 1983 Code of Canon Law specifically requires that all those in formation for the priesthood be very well skilled in Latin, their mother tongue and any other language necessary for their ministry.
(ii) can a seminarist nowadays receive the Sacred Order of the Priesthood without knowing at least how to celebrate Mass according to the Pauline Books in Latin?
Obviously yes.
(iii) if not, how will that generation of priests who cannot understand Latin be promoted to the Episcopacy? Can a Latin Rite bishop not know Latin? Aren’t debates in Ecumenical Councils conducted in Latin? How will such a man take part?
This is a huge problem. I often wonder what it means to be a priest of the Latin Rite when you have no use of Latin and cannot celebrate Mass in the language of your Rite. This is a HUGE problem in the production of curial and papal documents. At the level of, say, the Synod of Bishops, trying to get anything distributed to those who will participate is a nightmare: they can’t send things out in Latin, because the bishops can’t read it. Everything has to be converted into various langauges. Everything that is revised and rewritten has to go through the polylingual machine again and again. It is terribly ponderous and content suffers. And we all know how translation problems plague the Holy See right now.
(iv) shouldn’t seminaries teach the celebration according to the Use of 1962 in parallel to classes teaching candidates to the priesthood to celebrate according to the Use of 2002?
In my opinion, yes, both forms should be taught. This is only just now that Benedict has made it clear that we have one rite in two expressions.
On another Latin note, in the “old days”, when a new saint was inserted into the Roman Calendar, the proper texts for Missal and Breviary were available worldwide in the amount of time it took to mail them from Rome.
Now, in this age of “instant communication”, ironically, new saints can take a considerable amount of time to see their liturgical texts in the various countries of the world.
The rather large number of new memorials John Paul II added in 2001 are still unavailable in the USA Liturgy of the Hours, six years running…
Dr. F: Interesting, no?
Prof Basto,
Many priests and seminarians do not know even the non-conversational Latin needed to pronounce the words of the Mass of 1962. It’s not hard to learn however. I learned it in a few weeks as a little non-catholic kid put into Catholic school for a year.
We do have bishops who have never used the Latin they may (or may not) have learned in school, and have never said the classical mass, yes.
Although the Latin form of the Pauline mass is the official form, I have heard it only twice in my lifetime and it is widely ridiculed by employees of the American Church structure and some others. It is indeed, still a rarity out here in Michigan to hear a portion of the mass–say, a bit of music–in Latin or Greek.
“Comments of his eminence will in some respect provoke
on my part language not repeatable in polite company.
Do they think we are all stupid and unteachable? The
vast edifice that was Catholicism prior to 1970 was not
maintained through ignorance but scholarship. Books can be printed ,
classes taught, the rich treasure trove of tradition reexamend by all not simply the clergy.
JPG, Fairfield”
JPG, you are correct. The cardinal takes you for a fool and a lazy fool at that. It’s a matter of taking a class or a seminar or studing a book (in the old fashioned manner) which people are capable of and many will do. We also have internet resources, audio and video resources online and on CD. Not to mention the fact that Latinists good enough to say the mass are found sprinkled all over the outposts of this country. Many priests brought in from foreign countries can also say Latin.
ECheim: the Bach that Andrew used for his (very nice) video was an organ adaptation of the Praeludium from the 3rd partita for unaccompanied violin BWV 1006, probably taken from cantata BWV120a.
It’s from Bach’s Cantata number 29.
Being a home schooled kid and one who knows many priests who know Latin I find it
amazing that seminarians are not taught Latin. Even Bob Jones University which is
rabidly anti Catholic encourges the teaching of Latin. I also must say that as a
student of Latin I find it helps me in my study of English. Mabey even more of the
lay faithful and not just the priests should study this beautiful language.
Being a home schooled kid and one who knows many priests who know Latin I find it
amazing that seminarians are not taught Latin. Even Bob Jones University which is
rabidly anti Catholic encourges the teaching of Latin. I also must say that as a
student of Latin I find it helps me in my study of English. Mabey even more of the
lay faithful and not just the priests should study this beautiful language.
Being a home schooled kid and one who knows many priests who know Latin I find it
amazing that seminarians are not taught Latin. Even Bob Jones University which is
rabidly anti Catholic encourges the teaching of Latin. I also must say that as a
student of Latin I find it helps me in my study of English. Mabey even more of the
lay faithful and not just the priests should study this beautiful language.
Thanks Andrew and CPKS!
After reading many articles on this subject, I’d like to know why no Bishop or Cardinal or even Pastor has asked us common people how we feel about it instead of talking ‘for’ us or asking only those big doners in the parish who like to run everything.
Regarding semenarians’ ignorance of latin,I am reminded of a story of Cardinal Newman and a young man who was just beginning his studies for the priesthood. Newman asked about his greek and the young man replied that he had been awarded first class honours in greek at Oxford. “Yes,” replied Newman, “but don’t you feel that a clergyman should aspire to something rather more than a gentleman’s knowledge of Greek?” His comments on a priest who knew no latin would have been worth hearing.
Michael: Interesting! How wonderful it would be to have a citation for that. Think you could find it?
However, I think it may be too late to start with Latin in major seminary. It is far better to have Latin in place before major seminary. Latin must be in the tool box from the start.
If Fr. Z. is thinking here of the Minor Seminaries, these have either closed down or the ones that still exist do not even have Latin as part of their Curriculum.
Le Renard: I am thinking that Latin should be taught at every level of all Catholic schools, secular too for that matter.
I am thinking that Latin should be taught at every level of all Catholic schools, secular too for that matter.
Mega dittos, Fr. Z. My Catholic high school required Latin for freshmen and sophomores and offered AP Latin for juniors and seniors. So I’ve had four years of Latin and will continue its study during my Pre-Theology training and through the seminary. I’m at a loss as to why the study of the language of the Church is no longer deemed necessary for proper religious education.
Does His Eminence really believe that instruction in the Faith is a simple task? “Not all priests are adequately prepared for this. They lack formation.” God forbid that they should learn!
Hopefully, by the time I finish my Pre-Theology, instruction in the 1962 Roman Missal will be typical in seminaries!
Le Renard: I am thinking that Latin should be taught at every level of all Catholic schools, secular too for that matter.
If only.
The Trivium has virtually become extinct.