Regular WDTPRS readers will recall the hostile reception of Summorum Pontificum in the Diocese of Chicoutimi in Canada.
I have an update.
A reader sent this:
I have been following your blog with interest for some time now.
I read your post about the Diocese of Chicoutimi and its persistent refusal to allow Summorum Pontificum to be implemented (although, as we both know, no permission is required from the diocese as of September 14, 2007). Those of the faithful who desire the Forma Extraordinaria have a blog, on which I just read an interesting post. The parish priest of the Cathedral used last Sunday’s Masses to preach against the TLM with great force. His "homily" is posted on the site along with a short resumé. Seeing as it is in French, I have taken the liberty to translate the summary of what was said into English. I am sending you the translation as an attached file. You can read the original summary (and/or listen to the "homily" in French) if you understand that language.
The original post in French is dated Sunday, August 3 2008. It is entitled, "Le curé de la cathédrale prêche contre la Messe tridentine".
Shall we have a look at the summary? My emphases and comments.
The Parish Priest of the Cathedral [of Chicoutimi] Preaches Against the Tridentine Mass
The parish priest of the Cathedral of Chicoutimi, Fr. Gaetan Thibeault, preached against the Tridentine Mass at all four Sunday Masses: those of 8:30, 10:00 and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday morning, as well as the Saturday evening Mass at 7:15 p.m.
He began by saying, "Allow me this morning to give not a homily, but to enlighten you in regards to a request that was made by a group of people in the diocese."
The parish priest denounced the group from Chicoutimi by affirming that "those who signed the request do not respect authority, because they continue to desire the Tridentine Mass." [Apparently to desire the older form of Mass is now a way of lacking respect for authority. What sort of "authority" would assert that?] He added that "it is the bishop who is responsible for pastoral activity and for the liturgy in his diocese." He then declared, "The Pope is not the universal bishop; he is the bishop of Rome! And Bishop Rivest is not the vicar of the Pope; he is the bishop of Chicoutimi!" [I am pretty sure that this observation will be passed along by my Roman readers.]
Fr. Thibeault also affirmed that the group’s Internet site shows lack of respect towards authority, caricaturing Bishop Rivest as a man with horns [i.e. the Devil]. [If that were true, it would be reprehensible. However, I could not find any representation of the local bishop with horns. I did see a graphic that the Devil hates Latin, but I think that can’t be honestly associated with Bishop Rivest.] But what he failed to mention was that this was not the work of the group from Chicoutimi; it was done by a group of Spanish-speaking people.
He also stated, "Our bishop would surely not like me to say such things, because he is a good man."
Fr. Thibeault then went on to give a short course in the liturgy, wherein he praised Vatican II and concluded by saying, "most people who are attached to Tradition are insecure and incapable of adapting to the modern world." [Rather insulting.]
He also affirmed that "most of those who made the request [for the Forma Extraordinaria] are between 20 and 30 years old; thus, they are people who do not know Latin and who seemingly do not know the Tridentine liturgy." [Apart from my shock that any priest would not be delighted at the interest of young people in anything Catholic, this is a false argument. The Holy Father clearly issued Summorum Pontificum also for young people. Furthermore, they are merely asking for something that is their right to experience: the Roman Rite.]
Fr. Thibeault stated as well that "the Tridentine Mass is not all that traditional after all, since before the Council of Trent, there existed other forms of celebration, and the manner in which the Apostles celebrated [Holy Mass] is totally unknown to us." [An embarrasingly inept argument. First, no one really calls this the "Tridentine" Mass anymore. Also, the form of Mass codified after the Council of Trent was in use with very few changes from 1570-1969, so it is hard to understand what could be more traditional from our perspective. Furthermore, it matters not a whit how the Apostles celebrated Mass. We are not archeologists. We are interested in the forms of Mass we can legitmately use today. The older form is a modern form.]
He also declared, concerning the Traditional Mass: "If I asked you to raised your hand, those who desire it [the TLM], I am not sure that there would be many of you with your hand raised."
Fr. Thibeault considers it a threat, the fact that the members of the Group claimed that they will have recourse to Rome for their request! [People have rights. One of their rights is that they always have recourse to legitimate authority. If they think the local pastor and bishop are not giving them their due, they have the right to go to Rome. Also, Summorum Pontificum establishes the recourse to Rome as a legitimate option.]
He stated, "You know, I’m 65 years old, and I never celebrated the Mass of St. Pius V", thereby implying that the Tridentine Mass was a thing of the past. [And anyone listening can response, "So what? This is not about you."]
An important point to note: Fr. Thibeault has, however, celebrated "alternative masses".
It would be interesting to hear the audio of the whole sermon. Here it is. I had to enhance the sound and stitch it together. It is in French, and the audio quality is not great. It was also, annoyingly, broken up into sections.
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This is STUNNING.
A priest of the Roman Catholic Church preaching from the Pulpit against the Holy Father. Luther is reborn among us.
I don’t have the words right now to express my sadness at this. I am thinking giving up the news and the internet all together. At a famous Catholic forum I was called a heretic and a schismatic for supporting the Holy Father and his agenda.
This from otherwise faithful Catholics. Online communication only amplifies and makes less civil what people really think (and what they cannot say in person).
I fear there is DEEP animosity against the Holy Father and tradition.
I can’t understand what is going on. Why are these people so disloyal to the Holy Father?
Why?
And why does the priest hate beauty so much? The TLM is all about beauty… and truth.
Why?
This guy is still stuck in the 70’s! Talk about not adapting to the modern world.
Still, I think people who say such idiotic things have it backwards, the modern world is insecure and scared of Catholicism.
Quote: He stated, “You know, I’m 65 years old, and I never celebrated the Mass of St. Pius V”,
I cannot but be reminded of the last part of Apoc. 12.12: “… for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows his time is short!”
Perhaps Father ought to read Lumen Gentium 22 where one finds: “The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power.”
Also, LG 24: “The canonical mission of bishops … or directly through the successor of Peter himself; and if the latter refuses or denies apostolic communion, such bishops cannot assume any office.”
“The Pope is not the universal bishop….” To claim that the pope is not Universal Pastor and does not enjoy universal jurisdiction is pure heresy! While accusing the faithful of disobeying the local bishop, the priest sees no sin in setting himself against the Successor of Peter! And that he still calls himself a Roman Catholic priest is beyond comprehension!
I pray that Fr. Thibeault will see the Truth in
Summorum Pontificum.
I am flabbergasted. I thought Fr. Brennan of Holy Family in Inverness was bad… this priest, though, floors me.
I would like to comment on the question above, an excellent question, as to why a priest, or a bishop, or a layperson may hate “beauty”. The hatred of beauty connected with the hatred of the intellectual life are fall-outs from the anti-intellectual, minimalistic stands of the “Reformers” of the Protestant Revolt. The horses taken into the sanctuaries in England at Fountains Abbey,for example, were forced to trod on the Eucharist, as a matter of Protestant political agenda. The stained glass taught the Tradition of the Catholic Church, the music in the chant proclaimed the connection to the apostles, and the Eucharist, as the Presence of God, represented God’s Ever-Presence in the Catholic Church. Beauty, as an attribute of God, leads one to Truth and Love, and the beauty found in the ancient monastic and other foundations in Europe had to be destroyed so that the Truth was obscured and Love confounded.
The people learned from the architecture and the surrounding beauty of art and music. They learned the Scriptures and the Teachings of the Catholic Church. Only a great saint such as St. Bernard of Clairvaux, who had Beauty in his heart and preached on beauty and love could afford the minimalist architecture of the Cistercians. Most of us are not so close to God that we do not need these physical, yetsublime reminders of Heaven. And, St. Bernard had the Latin Mass and the chant….
The hatred of Beauty is a hatred of the Church as the Bride of Christ. If one denies the authority of the Pope, one has accepted the lies of the Reformation, sadly. Beauty and Truth are connected intimately in the Traditional Latin Mass, which is God’s gift to us,to draw us ever closer to Him. I shall pray for the sad prelate who hates God’s representative on earth and the manifestation of Beauty, which is from God Himself. St. Augustine stated, “Too late, O Ancient beauty, have I loved Thee.” He also noted that the love was the beauty of the soul. I hope the moment to see the Ancient Beauty as found in the Traditional Latin Mass does not escape this bishop or us.
And nothing will be done, unless all this is clearly spelled out, in writing,
with backup documentation, and sent to the proper dicastries in all due respect
requesting clarification and discipline.
We can rail about it all we want, but the ‘net’ (which first came online in 1992
on this date, believe it or not…when the first website was erected…) is still
considered a specious method of publicity, especially when there is little firm
and detailed documentation.
I’d suggest that the folks involved keep this in mind, and assemble their dossier
on this incident, and then forward their rightful requests that their rights be
respected to Rome.
If not…it’s just tilting at windmills, and the evil one will continue to destroy what’s
left of the Church in Quebec.
The sermon is to be found on the other link ‘a blog’ but as Fr Z says the sound quality is bad, too much echo and with a possibly Canadian accent I found it impossible to follow.
And, as the descendent of French Canadians, thinking of my grandparents attending daily
Mass at Ste. Anne’s Shrine in Fall River, observence of Holy Days, the feast of Ste. Anne’s
observances, attending Mass at Notre Dame in Montreal, processions, and my grandmere’s
attachment to Ste Anne de Beaupre’…it makes me sad to realize how far they have fallen.
I too am having trouble with the mp3 file
An important point to note: Fr. Thibeault has, however, celebrated “alternative masses”.
What is an alternative mass?????????????
I don’t speak French (more out of conviction than ability) so I hope some of the franciphones from this site would email or post to that blog showing our solidarity and prayers for their cause. As I have stated repeatedly here, we in the archdiocese of San Francisco (noticeably larger and more populated than Chicoutimi).
I’m 29 years old and i never go to a Novus ordo mass, then the Novus ordo mass is old? This guy is simple an old Hippie.
Athanasius’ diagnosis is correct but terminology (“idiotic”) is not usual in theological mannuals; possibly in modern ones only.
“The Pope is not the universal bishop; he is the bishop of Rome! And Bishop Rivest is not the vicar of the Pope; he is the bishop of Chicoutimi!”
Shocking Heresy! May The Bishop of Rome exercise his authority on all of them!
This guy is very funny, he said: “most people who are attached to Tradition are insecure and incapable of adapting to the modern world.”
I use computers, read blogs, emails. I ride a bike, I’m living in a city whit 20 millions of people and speak several modern languages. But how I like the Gregorian rite I’m insecure and incapable of adapting to the modern world.
For a priest in such a prominent position to get into the pulpit and preach something like this there must be more than hippy nostalgia at work. He’s running scared and in his panic he’s clutching at straws – even to the point of heresy. The man is 65 – he was probably ordained 40 years ago (guessing) – wasn’t the Church in a transitional stage back then, liturgically speaking? This priest may not have even said the Mass of Pope John XXIII though he would have learned it in seminary. It’s unspeakable that he should force a captive audience to listen to this tirade.
As a great woman once said “I’m tired of you liberal church… you’re sick.”
There’s no remedy for this modernistic nonsense, though the words ‘cleansing’ and ‘Augean stables’ come to mind. The Bible verses that sprang to my mind are these:
Jesus spoke this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he came out looking for fruit on it but did not find any. he said to the vine dresser, ‘Look here! for three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree and found none. Cut it down. Why should it clutter up the ground?’ In answer, the man said ‘Sir, leave it another year while I hoe around it and manure it; then perhaps it will bear fruit. if not, it shall be cut down.'” (Luke 13: 6-9)
I think God’s patience will eventually wear thin. Where is the harvest of souls from these people?
“most of those who made the request [for the Forma Extraordinaria] are between 20 and 30 years old; thus, they are people who do not know Latin”
Being 23 myself, I’m quite insulted. Why on earth does it follow that because those who requested the Mass were young adults then they don’t know Latin? You don’t need to be old to study a language. That is such a ridiculous argument that I can’t even fathom how or why he would think of it. It is a complete non sequitur.
Father, has the audio file been uploaded yet? There doesn’t seem to be a link?
I’d like confirmation that this has been forwarded to the competent authorities. Disobedience and heresy has been tolerated for far too long. Let’s not let people like this loon get away with that kind of behavior. The same goes for the bishop if he doesn’t do anything.
And there, by the way, lies the most important role of the pope – to make sure all bishops are catholic, retire those that aren’t, and appoint better ones. SP will do no good if the future is full of bad bishops.
Reading this make me want to loose my lunch, and it make me very angry. It almost seems as if this “priest” has elevated himslef to Bishop, and his Bishop to the Pope, in their little corner of the world.
I think some heads really need to roll here.
First of all, this guy is nuts. Secondly, he is a heretic to deny the juridical primacy of the Pope. He should be suspended a divinis! Tom
Being 22, I’m feeling quite insulted as well.
Forgive me for wanting a little more mystery in the Mass :)
May this priests poccess for being put in the lay state begin immediately
Sigh, this is so similar to those who desire the extraordinary form are treated in San Francisco. I am amazed that this “priest” has not been suspended for his comments, as Fr. Pfleger was in Chicago. What this guy is saying from the pulpit at four Sunday masses, in a place where good, orthodox, priests are needed by the faithful, is quasi-heretical. Cardinal Rigali suspended Pfleger, but what this priest is saying is far worse.
To those posting asking for discipline…. this will do no good.
Its not that I disagree with you (I don’t) and its not that I don’t think discipline should come (it should) its just that we all know that it won’t.
We just need to pray.
If my boss at work gave me a directive to give to those lower down the chain from me, and then I went to my fellow employees and misrepresented my bosses directive, and publicly criticized the boss, and then insulted the customers for requesting the product, what would happen to me?
The reality is priests and Bishops up until quite recently knew nothing of what it is like to operate under conditions of accountability. Even now, they really don’t get it. I have a great pastor. Some of my friends don’t. One guy is on a parish council. Quoth his pastor: “Audit!! Audit!!! How DARE the Bishop say we have to do an audit!! This is MY parish!!!”
Yeah… okay…
How about its OUR MONEY!!!!
Look, I have mouths to feed. To loose my job could mean material devastation for those (growing number) of souls dependent on me for food, shelter, education, and nurture.
Fellas, if we were to act this way on something minor like a sales strategy we could be fired forthwith.
This guy basically makes war on the agenda of the Successor of Peter (who IS his BOSS whether he want’s to admit it or not) and what will happen?
We all know the answer to this question.
I can’t think about this anymore. I get too upset.
Lets just pray.
I mean, if we DO say something our lovely coreligionists will just accuse of us be being arrogant (preferring the TLM) and sinful (engaging in the sin of detraction).
**#$%&#&$(
This is really sad. I wonder why he decided to become a Catholic priest in the first place. Did he forget his first love, because I could not imagine this attitude compelling one to become a priest…?
Is this man like a turkey voting for Christmas (or Thanksgiving) in delivering a dreadful and ignorant sermon like this? The old “prophets of doom”, as my grandmother used to call them, who used to walk the streets handing out leaflets of a particularly evangelical nature always denouncing the Sacrament of Penance and often wearing boards proclaiming that the end is nigh, spring to mind when confronted with this sort of reaction. Young priests at the heady times of the changes were possibly simply unaware or untouched by the effects of those changes to the people in their pastoral care. Others, trained totally in obedience before the Council couldn’t but think that the introduction of the Ordinary Form of Mass was naturally the end of the old. Of course the “old” which now seems to be the new “new Mass” was never abrogated, as the official bridge builder tells us. We are blessed with a Pope who recognizes that there are many fruits of the Council, but at the same time knows that Vatican II never actually called for the end to the celebration of offering the Mass in a form that they all recognised.
Any devout and humble priest would accept reasonable criticism or correction about something said in error in his sermon and I am going to pray that this man humbly and devoutly say that neither he nor his Bishop know better than the Holy Father, despite what they think to the contrary.
Ahh, aggiornamento my friend ;-) Join the revolution! (NB: satire)
As much as I disagree with the sspx, and I do disagree with them. What do you think they feel about the church when clergy in “good standing” can say such things with absolutely no consequences. I just pray that clarification on SP comes quickly from Rome.
“most people who are attached to Tradition are insecure and incapable of adapting to the modern world.”
This from a French-speaker in Canada. Irony or what? No offence intended aux Francophones.
A very sad article to read. We all need to remember to pray daily for our priests!! May God have mercy on Fr. Thibeault, and may his heart be opened to realize the beauty and reverence found in the Traditional Latin Mass.
St. John Vianney, pray for our priests.
cathguy:
You’re right. All we can do is pray. I’ll do that tomorrow before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. I am just so angry and frustrated with clergy and laity acting this way.
What is an alternative mass?????????????
Comment by Humilitas
—
Somehow I doubt this means that Fr. Thibeault has dabbled in any of the Eastern liturgies.
This ticked me off so I emailed the Cathedral there. Of course like any “ugly American” I did so in English. Not a universal Bishop? huh! could have fooled me.
Fr. Thibeault is not just in need of prayers. He is in need of an instruction in Homiletics 101. The decree on the Sacred Liturgy states that a homily is to be based on Sacred Scripture and expound the teachings of Catholic faith.
It is not to “enlighten” the faithful on the pet peeves of the preacher. Nor is it the chance for the priest to speak on the issues of his anxieties, angers, and bitterness. Talk about a man doing private therapy in front of the faithful gathered for Mass! This is why we have confessors, or in the case of mental disturbance, a good, Catholic therapist. If he is off prescribed meds, he needs to get back on them.
Surely this priest understands that people have their own problems to deal with, much more serious than his petty concerns about the EF of the liturgy. They come to Mass to grow in holiness by adoring God, be edified, and receive that grace which will help them go back to the world and be a salt and a spiritual flavor. They simply don’t need to be subjected to this tirade which has nothing to do with 99% of those gathered.
It is good to pray, but it is also good to write to this priest’s bishop and ask him to speak to this priest. Let the bishop know that “as a lay Catholic, when I come to Mass, I need to hear…x,y, and z. I put money in the collection so that Father doesn’t have to go and find a worldly job. I support the priests so that they will use the time and energy to prepare a good homily for the one time during the week when I will interact with them at the liturgy. Your Excellency, for the hard-earned money which the faithful give, is it too much to ask that you speak to this priest and remind him that this is precisely what I do not need to hear on Sunday???”
Maybe a calm, clear letter to the Bishop will inspire a needed talk between him and his cathedral parish priest.
I am shocked by the level of shock being expressed at what this priest preached. Fifty percent of the clergy in North America and Europe probably share the same views but are more prudent than to say it from the pulpit in the current climate of re-(reform).
Please have some compassion for modernist clergy like this – they must feel very confused at the moment – don’t forget until recently we were told that the TLM was supressed and that we need special permission from the local Bishop to assist at it. Outside of groups like the SSPX even “traditionalists” believed this (or at least behaved as if they did). Modernist priests had also been fed an extremist interpretation of collegiality which clearly undermines the authority of the Bishop of Rome vis-a-vis other Bishops.
A major programme of re-formation of priests (and Bishops) is required if any progress is to be made in the reform of the reform.
JMJ
Cathedrals. Absolutely sick making and directly heretical in its understanding of papal authority. He says, in effect, that the pope has no right to impose the MP. A little silly because if that were so the pope would also have no authority to impose the new liturgy so the whole argument is pointless. silly silly silly.
PS: Sorry I had not fully deleated my originally intended comment so the word ‘Cathedrals’ is not suppoesed to be there!
Sadly this attitude is too common in Canada.
I approached our parish priest(the Diocesan Liturgist no less) about a TLM, even a private one, when the SP was coming out. He really knows his Latin and sings it beautifully, but his masses are some of the more “progressive” I have seen. Besides being turned down, three things came from this conversation:
1) That the Bishop is in charge of the Liturgy and the Bishop has given him permission to change the mass.
2) That the next Pope will probably overturn the SP anyway, so why waste our time.
3) That if it does not have CCCB stamped on the page, he does not give a rat’s *ss where it comes from or who issued it!
Please pray for us in Canada. There are great things afoot, but oh so slow.
To quote “Fr Angel”:
“Surely this priest understands that people have their own problems to deal with, much more serious than his petty concerns about the EF of the liturgy. They come to Mass to grow in holiness by adoring God, be edified, and receive that grace which will help them go back to the world and be a salt and a spiritual flavor. They simply don’t need to be subjected to this tirade which has nothing to do with 99% of those gathered.”
It’s true. 99% of Catholics don’t care about whether the priest faces east, west, or stands on his head when saying mass. They don’t care if he says the mass in Latin or Swahili.
What both “liberals” and “conservatives” have worked out is that the remaining, vocal 1% do care and are quite evangelical. If they were more grounded in reality (and I read a comment by someone calling themselves “Lay Catholic” on the blog entry with the film quotes objecting to the author’s frivolity and use of the word “bitch”) they might actually be able to enthuse the remaining 99% into becoming active. If the 99% of the church were actively united in siezing back what is theirs from the bishops then the bishops no longer exercise control over the small percentage of catholics who actually cvare what the prelates think and say. That, to your average prealte with a somewhat feathered nest would be dangerously akin to a revolution or a coup. So to keep the 1% distracted they keep them arguiing over the liturgy.
It is a pity. If the RCC was truely “catholic” it would strip down its hierachy and feudal baronacy (that was a model of the middle ages) and actually do what Vatican 2 intended to do, which was to become a more democratic model that retained the papacy but cut through the layers of beaurocracy, quasi-civil service structures, the kanagaroo courts of the tribunals and the diocesan and Vatican curias and all of the other “jobs for the boys” jobs that people’s hard earned money that is given in donations to the RCC go to supporting.
The priest has no right to use the liturgy as an opportunity to push his (or the Bishop’s) personal agenda. The people have the right to a homily, especially at Sunday Mass. The Bishop (for allowing, or possibly inspiring) owes an apology to the Church for allowing this liturgical abuse (not to mention causing grave scandal).
I wonder if Father Thibeault’s diatribe was actually given under the directive of Bishop Rivest. After all, it is the Bishop that would be the one denying them their request for the TLM. (cf. SP – Art. 7. If a group of lay faithful, as mentioned in art. 5 õ 1, has not obtained satisfaction to their requests from the pastor, they should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is strongly requested to satisfy their wishes. If he cannot arrange for such celebration to take place, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”.)
Also, I wonder if either the priest or the Father Thibeault or Bishop Rivest understand what kind of authority a Motu Proprio issued by the Holy Father has. Who is the party that “lacks respect for authority” and “insecure and incapable of adapting to the modern world.”
I really sense that fellows such as this Fr. Thibeault are running scared right now. For years the novelties have been given free rein, to do as they please under the cover of the “Spirit of the Council”. Now with BXVI confirming traditionalist views, their edifice of the “Spirit of the Council” is crumbling. So these priests and laymen will use every outlet to their disposal to bash Catholic Tradition to instill fear into your garden variety Catholic, so either they will be scared to ask / show interest in the TLM or will be tricked into thinking that the TLM is negative for their faith. It will take many strong willed and holy priests to implement BXVI’s master plan. Viva il papa!
His comments about the Holy Father remind me of the conversation I had with a priest who was committing some very serious liturgical abuses in our parish. When I mentioned to him that what he was doing was in violation of the document Redemptionis Sacramentum, he told me that the Holy Father was the Bishop of Rome and not Milwaukee and that this document along with the GIRM had not been implemented here. Do these guys work from the same playbook? It would appear so.
He has found his “comfort” level or zone. He likes the Normative Form; its ease, its ecclesiology. Not too demanding. Easy prayers.
He is the leader of worship and praise. Anythig that is different is a challenge/affront to his mindset and his personal morals, lifestyle and way of living. I am NOT making any judgements on his mindset, morals or lifestyle. It is just an observation of how people interact with others who have different outlooks. It all is very sad that the defenses go up so quickly and authoritatively.
A question:
IF there are so few interested in it, why take an entire Sunday of homilies to preach against it? Is somebody afraid that a movement is beginning to form? You don’t have to make an argument against something that nobody wants, do you? Does he suppose that if you tell people they don’t want it long enough, they won’t want it? Or is it that if people were allowed to experience it, some might just diverge from his particular point of view?
Interesting that after 27 years of John Paul the Great there are bishops and priests who have little understanding (and even less regard) for papal authority. I wonder what the situation would be had JP the Great actually implemented the recommendations of the Cardinalatial Commission of 1986. Perhaps the present resistance would have long been overcome, and the Church would be on the way to real reform.
“most of those who made the request [for the Forma Extraordinaria] are between 20 and 30 years old; thus, they are people who do not know Latin and who seemingly do not know the Tridentine liturgy.”
LOL
How does it follow that young age=Tey don;t know latin? Age has no bearing on knowledge,as there are plenty of young children who lear Latin in grade school. (There’s an all boys Latin school in Philadelphia for grades 5-8.)
I’m 17, and I at least know enough rudimentary Latin to translate things. I know several kids my age who know the TLM like the back of their hands.
“those who signed the request do not respect authority, because they continue to desire the Tridentine Mass.”
Let’s flip this around:
“Those who flatly refuse all requests for the TLM do not respect authority, because they continue to hate the tridentine mass.”
Pope says to grant requests.
He disrespects him saying “No pope guy! You’re not the boss of me!”
The pope is the legitimate authority.
Therefore, he does not respect authority.
Simple logic, eh?
I also like how he called us insecure. Use an Ad hominem, that always helps arguments.
Fail.
Let us pray for the pope, the bishops, and all pastors of the holy
I have come to the conclusion that this bishop is creating this stink in the hope of getting kicked upstairs to someplace warmer. Unwittingly he is sending himself straight to someplace not only warm but HOTTER! I doubt he’ll get a curial preferrment.
I lived in that diocese some months ago and wish I was still there to help. There are wonderful traditional catholics there who do not want to harm anybody and just want to adore God reverently in accordance with their traditional sensibilities.
Alternative masses are done with leavened bread and all the people are around the altar.
DanH said: the Bishop is in charge of the Liturgy and the Bishop has given him permission to change the mass.
So his bishop has more authority than the Pope and an Oecumennical Council? Sacrosactum Consilium says, and Redemptionis Sacramentum reiterates, that no individual, but only the Church herself, may make changes to the words and rubrics of the liturgy.
When I mentioned to him that what he was doing was in violation of the document Redemptionis Sacramentum, he told me that the Holy Father was the Bishop of Rome and not Milwaukee and that this document along with the GIRM had not been implemented here.
Translation: “The Archdiocese of Milwaukee is not affiliated with the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and we do not obey church law here.”
Not surprised by that attitude you encountered in that archdiocese. I’ve visited there three times, and each time I went to Mass, I encountered some pretty atrocious liturgical abuses. The third time was on a Palm Sunday, and I can’t even describe how awful the liturgy was. The priest told us to sit during the Passion narrative, and the choir sang during the Passion. Well, it’s probably generous to call them a choir and to call that singing. To add insult to real injury, their cantor was nearly tone deaf — fingernails on the blackboard bad. Worst of all, the priest ad libbed almost the entire Eucharistic Prayer, sticking to the Church’s own words only for the Institution Narrative and Consecration. We have resolved that the next time we visit the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, we will assist at the traditional Latin Mass only. Archbishop Weakland did a lot of damage in his archdiocese, and thank God he’s retired, but it will take a long, long time for Catholicism to recover there.
re: the Internet, and whether the Vatican knows what’s going on out on the web… ever checked out the Vatican’s website? Any organization that sets up and maintains such an outstanding web presence is likely to be pretty web-aware. (I bet Fr. Z’s blog is bookmarked in a lot of Vatican browsers!)
The web has done so much to help the cause of recovering our rightful heritage as Catholics. Before the web, it was easy for priests to get away with “It’s this way now everywhere – don’t ask questions.” Ordinary busy folks just didn’t have ready options for finding out the truth. Now it’s different. We can find each other.
The established ways of reporting incidents like the subject of this post should always be followed… but surely the written reports will be only formal confirmations of what the Vatican already knows.
Quote: “He also affirmed that “most of those who made the request [for the Forma Extraordinaria] are between 20 and 30 years old”
God forbid if he considers the wishes of the future leaders and laity of the Catholic Church and what they spiritually hunger for. Hopefully Cardinal Hoyas will request this priests presence in the near future to work things out. Or reassign him!!.
Hence why we need the Traditional Anglicans help now!!! To replace defiant liberal Bishops who cater to the liberal 60’s crowd. And care nothing for authority.
So terribly disappointing…It has turned into direct conflict for parishoners with their Priests and Bishops. A mandate from Rome (and stronger,visible support, a Papal TLM perhaps) is what is needed at this point on the journey to establish TLM in every parish at least once a Sunday. The freedoms given to Bishops over the last few decades are surely being abused openly and shame should be in their hearts. They are forcing people into conflict and despair. That is not their role. Our Holy Pope has got to do something openly now and make examples of a few. I am further convinced that the strategy opted for now is to wait our this Papacy and hope the next Pope will act differently, or indifferently, towards the TLM. I feel deeply sad for The Holy Father as I suspect he suffers greatly for this disrespect. I saw him in NY (after he left St. Patrick’s Cathedral) on his apostolic journey and watched the TV coverage and he seems such a kind, love filled man. I was deeply touched watching him at St. Joseph’s seminary. Father Z, this is why I love your blog so much. Today I would not have known of this if not for you. There are many rooms that you enter every evening. I will make this a subject in my office tomorrow and keep spreading the good word about the TLM and doing what small things I can to broaden the base of knowledge, even if some of our Bishops refuse to. Pray for my success.
Yeh and they care less about the younger generation who will be the heart of the Church when they are long gone.
I share Bill Belloc’s view (Comment posted 7 August 2008)that “fellows such as this Fr. Thibeault are running scared right now.” Oops! The “emperor has no clothes!” Sorry, Fr. Thibeault, but the Holy Father, elected the Bishop of Rome, is (de facto) the SUPREME PONTIFF of the Universal Church and the VICAR of Christ. Not to rant, but as a convert who understands Latin AND the crucial importance and centrality of the Liturgy of the Mass, I think it is time to do some “cleaning house” and bring dignity and respect for the BEST of Church traditions (yes, that’s a small “t”) into the Church. I go to Mass to worship the Holy Trinity and receive the BODY and BLOOD of Christ, and wish to do so with the greatest dignity I can muster – is it too much to ask that others (including our clergy) do likewise?