Bp. Sample (D. Marquette) to Bp. Gumbleton: please don’t come

This is picked up from Te Deum.  It is a fine story about a fine bishop, an old friend of mine from many years ago, His Excellency Most Reverend Alex Sample, Bishop of Marquette, Michigan.

Keep in mind before you read that bishops can’t simply do what they want and where they want.  When they go to another diocese, they really need to be in harmony with the local diocesan bishop.

That said, I believe you may be familiar with the writings and doings of the Auxilliary Bishop of Detroit, H.E. Most Rev. Thomas Gumbleton… columnist of the ultra-dissenting National Catholic Reporter.

Some background: Bp. Gumbleton was invited to speak in Marquette by a group called Marquette Citizens for Peace and Justice.  Because of Bp. Gumbleton’s well-known positions on homosexuality and women "priests", Bp. Sample asked Bp. Gumbleton not to come.  Apparently they did not come to an agreement.

Read this folks on the site of the Diocese of Marquette!  My emphases and comments:

Statement of Bishop Alexander K. Sample In Response to Bishop Thomas Gumbleton’s Public Appearance in the Diocese of Marquette
10/9/2009

“I attempted to handle this matter in a private, respectful and fraternal manner with Bishop Gumbleton.  It is unfortunate that what should have remained a private matter between two bishops of the Catholic Church has been made available for public consumption.

I want to first of all say that my decision to ask Bishop Gumbleton not to come to Marquette had absolutely nothing to do with the group who invited him to speak, Marquette Citizens for Peace and Justice, nor with the topic of his publicized speech, since the Church is a strong advocate of peace and justice.  I am sorry for the negative impact this has had on those planning this event.

There is a common courtesy usually observed between bishops whereby when one bishop wishes to enter into another bishop’s diocese to minister or make a public speech or appearance, he informs the local bishop ahead of time and seeks his approval.  Only on October 9 did I receive any communication from Bishop Gumbleton, after this situation had already become public[It is possible that there are simple oversights, etc.  People forget to do things, etc.  However… there are reasons for the protocol and courtesy.  Perpend.]

As the Bishop of the Diocese of Marquette, I am the chief shepherd and teacher of the Catholic faithful of the Upper Peninsula entrusted to my pastoral care.  As such I am charged with the grave responsibility to keep clearly before my people the teachings of the Catholic Church on matters of faith and morals. [And this is what makes Bp. Sample an outstanding example….]  Given Bishop Gumbleton’s very public position on certain important matters of Catholic teaching, specifically with regard to homosexuality and the ordination of women to the priesthood, it was my judgment that his presence in Marquette would not be helpful to me in fulfilling my responsibility.

I realize that these were not the topics upon which Bishop Gumbleton was planning to speak.  However, I was concerned about his well-known and public stature and position on these issues and my inability to keep these matters from coming up in discussion.  In order that no one becomes confused, everyone under my pastoral care must receive clear teaching on these important doctrines.  [Therefore, the Bishop was trying to avoid possible scandal and confusion among the people.]

I offer my prayers for Bishop Gumbleton and for all those who have been negatively affected by this unfortunate situation.”

 

Very often in the public debates about various Catholic politicians or candidates we find a bishop who will stand up and say that because of the risk of scandal for the faithful, Sen. So-and-So cannot do X,Y,Z in this diocese."   This is also the case when even a bishop goes off the rails. 

WDTPRS sends warm kudos to Bp. Sample. 

Bp. Sample (D. Marquette) to Bp. Gumbleton: please don’t come
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57 Responses to Bp. Sample (D. Marquette) to Bp. Gumbleton: please don’t come

  1. Virgil says:

    In times when the bishops should be standing united, they insist on bickering among themselves.

    On a national level, of course, their decades long dream of universal health care is being torpedoed by their inability to speak with a common voice.

    In Richmond, Virginia, the local ordinary (+ Francis DiLorenzo) last week forbade the Bishop Emiritus (+ Walter Sullivan) from speaking.

    http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/richmond-diocese-rejected-pax-christi-kickoff-event

    Now in Michigan it’s the same kind of scandal.

    Why on earth are we offering kudos?

    Gumbleton may be a bit of an aging (or aged) hippie, and he may have tacked a bit too far left once or twice, but he has never been accused of heresy. In particular, with respect to the spirituality of peace and justice, he is a treasure to the American Church. Even in retirement he continues to write and speak and preach, and his ministry is very much alive and well and blessed. He is still a bishop and deserves our respect.

    The only scandal is being caused by Sample’s and Gumbleton’s own inability to get their calendars straight, and to resolve his personal disagreements as fellow shepherds of souls. No kudos to those bishops who fail to be collegial.

    I wonder how Sample will remedy the confusion that is now caused? Will people in his diocese think that Gumbleton is a heretic? Will they think that the Church is no longer on the side of peace and justice? What will they think of the good Catholics of the diocese who wanted to extend a welcome to the retired bishop? Hopefully Sample will offer a preachiong series on Gumbleton’s themes. Or cite Gumbleton’s writings (the good ones, as there are many that can be found) a few times.

  2. I attempted to handle this matter in a private, respectful and fraternal manner with Bishop Gumbleton. It is unfortunate that what should have remained a private matter between two bishops of the Catholic Church has been made available for public consumption.

    The sour-grapes press leak is a common tactic of the dissentient left. When Archbishop Pilarczyk informed wanna-be priestess Sr. Louise Akers, SC, in a private meeting that she could no longer teach in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, she ran to the National Catholic Reporter and Cincinnati Enquirer with her story. Ditto for suspended catechist and fellow priestess promoter Dr. Carol Egner, after she was suspended by her pastor for similar reasons.

    I realize that these were not the topics upon which Bishop Gumbleton was planning to speak. However, I was concerned about his well-known and public stature and position on these issues and my inability to keep these matters from coming up in discussion. In order that no one becomes confused, everyone under my pastoral care must receive clear teaching on these important doctrines.

    This is a sound preemptive response to the charge that dissidents hold mere “personal opinions” or are addressing unrelated topics.

  3. ray from mn says:

    When Auxiliary Bishop James Shannon of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis found that he could not agree with teachings of the Catholic Church after Vatican II, he resigned as Bishop and left the Church in 1968.

    He did not continue to draw a paycheck and snipe at the Church from within.

    Like all bishops he had many talents and he used them effectively as a lay person. Although he was still canonically considered to be an “archbishop emeritus.”

  4. I was wondering how Bishop Sample was brought to the point of having to make the statement publicly. Curt Jester had the news on this up earlier and I just now stumbled on it. In the combox, someone pointed to the previous day’s Mining Journal which read (emphases mine in bold; comments in brackets):

    >>>>>>>>>>MARQUETTE – Members of the Citizens for Peace and Social Justice group said they are appalled, sad and frustrated over a decision by Bishop Alexander Sample of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Marquette to deny a Detroit bishop permission to speak publicly in Marquette this weekend.

    “We’re really confused about it,” said Darlene Dreisbach, a member of the Marquette peace organization. “Doesn’t that seem like the Middle Ages?”

    Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, 79, of Detroit was invited by the Citizens for Peace and Social Justice group to talk about “Visions of Peace: Abolition of Nuclear Weapons” at a forum scheduled for Monday. He was also invited to give a speech on peace in a local church on Sunday.

    “Yesterday afternoon he called us and said he received a letter from Bishop Sample to not speak publicly,” Dreisbach said. “He was not told why.” [Isn’t this how it always happens???]

    Gumbleton, a retired Roman Catholic auxiliary bishop of the Detroit Archdiocese, is a longtime national and international activist in the peace movement, according to Dreisbach.

    “He was the founder (member) of Pax Christi USA,” she said. “He was one of the first bishops to speak out against the Vietnam War.”

    Gumbleton, whose homilies can be read in The National [not-so]Catholic Reporter, has been known as an outspoken critic of violence and militarism; his stances have drawn national attention. He was arrested several times for anti-war protesting and performing acts of civil disobedience outside of The White House.

    “I don’t know how one bishop can deny civil rights,” Dreisbach said, adding that she now has to cancel every event planned for Gumbleton’s visit.<<<<<<<<<

  5. I meant to link to Curt Jester’s post made earlier today.

  6. EXCHIEF says:

    Virgil
    It is the perspective which you present that helps create the confusion which you purport to dislike. Bp Sample was doing his job because Gumbleton won’t do his. I fully agree with and support Bp Sample. One Bishop has no real authority over another and the solution must come from Rome. The pity is that solution will not be forthcoming. At least Bp Sample had the intestinal fortitude to try.

  7. Grabski says:

    Virgil asked: Why on earth are we offering kudos?

    …..

    Because the Left doesn’t respect the limits set by others, and Bp Gumbleton is well known for his heterodox beliefs. It’s not unusual to make sure that everything is ‘teed up’ before telling the (Bishop, Pastor, Principal, etc) and making sure it’s in the press. This scurrilous tactic is meant to pressure those w/ responsibility to avoid looking ‘divisive’. As Bp Sample said, he hoped to resolve the situatin privately, but per usual the Left wants confrontation. Well, Bp Gumbleton was probably quite surprised when Bp Sample excercised his RIGHTFUL perogative. If Bp Gumbleton were acting in good faith, he would apologize – publicly.

    For standing up against such tactics we offer kudos. Bp Gumbleton is in the wrong, clearly. Why should he, then, be accomodated? The scandal is a) he did not follow protocol; b) he went public; c) he didn’t apologize, gracefully.

  8. Hamburglar says:

    So Bishop Gumbleton believes the ordination of women is possible and should be allowed? Does this not make him a heretic? How is this guy still in good standing with the Church? I would suspect he already incurred latae sententiae excommunication.

  9. Thomas G. says:

    This is a man in whose hands the crozier really means something – to whack the wolves away from the flock.

    Beneath the polite rhetoric I hear the “thwack!” as shepherd’s staff encounters wolf-flesh.

  10. david andrew says:

    As Fr. Z put it so well at Call To Holiness after His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider made his very impassioned address to that convocation of Faithful this last weekend, when Bishops like him and Bp. Sample speak so forcefully for Truth and adherence to the Teachings of Holy Church, they will be the subject of attack, even wickedness. Witness Virgil’s rant above.

    And so, following Fr. Z’s advice, we should all offer the prayer to St. Michael to defend these Holy Men in battle!

  11. David2 says:

    So the Bishops stand condemned by Virgil for not getting with the “yes we can!” programmeon statist health care, even thoug many have legitimate concerns that the Obama “dream” might involve taxpayers funding intrinsic evils condemned as such by the Church?

    My response to this whole thing is “thank God we have Bishops willing to stand up for the Church’s teaching and insist that even their brother Bishops need to stick to the infallible teachings of the faith!”.

    Virgil asks if Bp Gumbleton might be considered a heretic. Given that he dissents from a teaching which Pope John Paul II said, in line with the unquestioned teaching of his predecessors, must be “definitively held” by all the faithful (the impossibility of ordination of women), heresy would not seem to me to be an entirely unreasonable charge to make.

    The Church has to have the courage of its convictions, and correct these dissenters who have led so many astray, unchecked, for so long.

  12. Jordanes says:

    Virgil said: On a national level, of course, their decades long dream of universal health care is being torpedoed by their inability to speak with a common voice.

    There is no chance that the kind of universal health care that the Catholic Church desires could ever come about as long as the White House, Congress, and federal courts remain in the possession of Liberals. It is no more likely to come about if one bishop refrains from banning a heretical retired bishop from coming to his diocese.

    Also, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of Catholics in Bishop Sample’s diocese who already think (that is, know) Bishop Gumbleton is a heretic.

  13. Women’s ordination? What part of:

    “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” (Pope John Paul II, “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis”)

    …..do people not understand?

  14. What is so odd about the dissident end of the Church is that they want to make a designer religion out of Catholicism. They want everyone to have their own version of truth, yet amongst themselves they are not unified on every issue. They are blinded to the fact that unity must subsist in Truth.

  15. paladin says:

    Virgil wrote:

    In times when the bishops should be standing united, they insist on bickering among themselves.

    Forgive me, but this is the sort of equivocative nonsense which led Terri Schiavo’s bishop to pass over her state-sanctioned murder in order to address/decry (what he took to be) the “far more urgent matter” of the “lack of civil discourse” between the opposing sides. You also (implicitly) suggest, with your word choices, that there was no just cause for H.E. Sample to address his concerns as he did, yes? If I speed, I can’t rightly condemn the state trooper for his “ungenerous and vindictive” citation, can I? A desire for placidity can never lead us to ignore principle… and H.E. Sample was the very soul of civility, in his comments, anyway.

    On a national level, of course, their decades long dream of universal health care is being torpedoed by their inability to speak with a common voice.

    Ah… so it’s politics which concerns you. But again, I was under a different impression: that the “dream of universal health care” (which is NOT a moral imperative, when speaking specifically of GOVERNMENT-RUN health care, anyway) was “being torpedoed” by the Obama administration’s adamant refusal to exclude state-sponsored abortion (and other death-dealers) from the current packages under consideration. Am I mistaken?

    In Richmond, Virginia, the local ordinary (+ Francis DiLorenzo) last week forbade the Bishop Emiritus (+ Walter Sullivan) from speaking.

    http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/richmond-diocese-rejected-pax-christi-kickoff-event

    Now in Michigan it’s the same kind of scandal.

    I really think you’re throwing the word “scandal” around a bit carelessly, here. And even if we grant it for the sake of argument: why are you laying the “blame” on Bishop Sample? He, if anyone, was the offended party (if you can use even that severe a term–which I doubt).

    Why on earth are we offering kudos?

    Because justice is being served, and in a way that does not violate charity in the least. Because a successor of the Apostles is showing the backbone which has been notably lacking in many of our shepherds, when faced with matters of principle.

    Gumbleton may be a bit of an aging (or aged) hippie, and he may have tacked a bit too far left once or twice, but he has never been accused of heresy.

    Even if you ignore Bishop Gumbleton’s rejection of Church teaching that: (a) homosexuality is an intrinsic disorder (CCC 2357), and (b) women can never be ordained validly to the priesthood (cf. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) (aside from his obligation to obey the Supreme Pontiff in these matters), wouldn’t heterodoxy be enough? What does it matter if no “formal accusation” has been brought? H.E. Gumbleton did not follow a needed protocol–and he carelessly (we hope, anyway) blundered upon the sacred duty of another Bishop; don’t you think it was Bishop Gumbleton’s responsibility to back off, apologize, and chalk it up to experience (and perhaps reconsider his own heterodox views)?

    In particular, with respect to the spirituality of peace and justice, he is a treasure to the American Church. Even in retirement he continues to write and speak and preach, and his ministry is very much alive and well and blessed.

    You’re welcome to your opinion, of course… but I think you can recognize how “continuing to write and speak and preach”, with a “ministry very much alive” (I’ll pass over the dubious claims of “well” and “blessed”) can still be problematic, can’t you? The same can be said for any dissenter (or worse) who ever lived, and who hadn’t yet stopped talking! Sr. Chittister, Fr. Richard McBrien, Hans Kung., et al., come to mind.

    He is still a bishop and deserves our respect.

    From someone who called him “a bit of an aging (or aged) hippie”, that’s a strange thing for you to say… but I challenge you to show me (or anyone) how H.E. Sample’s message, or our gratitude to him (and relief) for his clarity, constitutes disrespect.

    The only scandal is being caused by Sample’s and Gumbleton’s own inability to get their calendars straight, and to resolve his personal disagreements as fellow shepherds of souls. No kudos to those bishops who fail to be collegial.

    There’s a key problem, I’m afraid: “collegiality” is not nearly so exalted a moral imperative as you suppose–especially if it’s meant in the loose, colloquial sense of “let each and every bishop do whatever he pleases, without challenge. If a bishop is clearly in the wrong, then it’s perfectly proper to praise another bishop for tactfully reminding the first of that fact (and indicating necessary consequences).

    I wonder how Sample will remedy the confusion that is now caused?

    I suppose he’ll remedy it the same way that Pope John Paul II “remedied” the “confusion” resulting from his disciplinary actions against Hans Kung (which were mild, and completely within charity). He’ll address serious concerns at leed, and rightfully pass over the frivolous ones in silence.

    Will people in his diocese think that Gumbleton is a heretic?

    They might be led to examine his teachings and views… which is not at all a bad thing, especially to the extent that they deviate from Catholic teaching.

    Will they think that the Church is no longer on the side of peace and justice?

    If you encounter such confused persons, perhaps you’d be good enough to direct them to H.E. Sample’s second paragraph, which addresses that explicitly?

    What will they think of the good Catholics of the diocese who wanted to extend a welcome to the retired bishop?

    I don’t know. Are we assuming that “they” have read and understood H.E. Sample’s comments?

    Hopefully Sample will offer a preachiong series on Gumbleton’s themes.

    Alternate suggestion: perhaps H.E. Sample can be left to preach the Gospel?

  16. mdillon says:

    With all due loving respect to the Holy See, why hasn’t the Vatican sacked Bishop Gumbleton a long time ago? Bishop Sample is not the first Episcopal put into this position with the Gumbleton situation.

  17. Our Lady of Akita said “Bishop against Bishop.” If all followed all the Church teachings in unity, then this wouldn’t happen.

  18. Supertradmom says:

    As all the Catholics in America know the positions held by Gumbleton, as he has never been coy about these, I am not sure why the people quoted in the article were confused? Although the good Bishop Sample made it clear he was separating the groups status in the diocese from that of Gumbleton, it seems that they are most likely in agreement with him. When I hear a Catholic referring to a decision as from the “Middle Ages”, I know that the person making the grossly exaggerated and anti-historical judgment does not like obedience to authority, either the authority of the local Church-Sample, or the authority of the Universal Church-the Pope and Teaching Magisterium.

    I pray for this excellent Bishop Sample. And, I agree with what has been stated, that Gumbleton is a heretic in his many views, which show he is open conflict with the Teachings of the Church. As he is not merely an “aging hippie”, but a bishop, his presence in the diocese must and was addressed correctly.

  19. Supertradmom says:

    apologies for the modifications-tryint to type with a cat demanding my attention….

  20. Tim Ferguson says:

    great fisking paladin – kudos!

  21. Athelstan says:

    What Paladin said.

  22. Just so Virgil can hear it, Gumbleton is a heretic. Furthermore, his version of Peace and Justice is not that proclaimed by the Magisterium.

  23. paladin says:

    Supertradmom wrote:

    apologies for the modifications-tryint to type with a cat demanding my attention….

    (LOL!) I’m glad I’m not the only one… though I *do* think I’ve got you beat, in typos and formatting glitches… sheesh! (Tim, Athelstan: thanks for complimenting that jumbled mess! You’re generous…)

  24. Stu says:

    Lead us, Your Excellency. Lead us.

  25. TNCath says:

    Thank you, Bishop Sample! Honestly, I’m glad to see that this became public knowledge. The laity need to be know where these bishops stand. This would have never happened in my diocese. He would have been welcomed with open arms. Last week we had Peter Steinfels (who advocates the ordination of women as deacons so that they could be appointed cardinals and, possibly be elected Pope and whose wife wrote the forward to Archbishop Weakland’s autobiography) speak in our diocese in the presence of our bishop who enthusiastically supported his presence.

  26. Seraphic Spouse says:

    What does a lay organist have to do with any of this, gay, straight or (as alleged) deeply twisted?

    Meanwhile, the whole Cause Gumbleton is another lesson in Celebrity Culture. Gumbleton, thanks to media, is a star and Sample is not.

    However, others can play at that game, and some media stars–particularly stars of new media–are as orthodox as an eastward-facing Missa Cantata

  27. patrick_f says:

    All I will say is you always see the good bishops with KOFC 4th degrees around :)

    Notice what is missing in Gumbleton’s pic…. not to mention the rainbow vestments.

  28. MargaretMN says:

    Gumbleton, who as it happened, confirmed me 30 years ago, has never had any problem creating scandal wherever he goes. He thinks he’s creating publicity and support for his causes. Also, I never heard that Gumbleton himself was gay. He’s for gay rights but the only interview I every read where he discussed the subject, he mentioned that he had a brother who was gay.

  29. Virgil says:

    Hmmmm… In light of history, let me revise my post. Rather than encouraging bishpos to work together, I have another encouragement.

    Let’s make the fight more interesting.

    Option 1. The Patristic Solution. Sample invites Gumbleton to his diocese and then shows up at the event. Great debate follows. Great literature is published for the ages.

    Option 2. The Medieval Solution. Sample invites Gumbleton to his diocese and ambushes him as he crosses the bridge to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Sample nails Gumbleton’s allegedly heretical writings to his dead horse’s skull.

    In both cases, there is acknowledgement of Gumbleton’s heresy. What did he write or do that was so offensive? Sample never says! He says only that Gumbleton “disagrees” with Church teaching in 2 areas.
    – How does he disagree?
    – Is it mere disagreement in tone, or is it real disagreement in dogma?
    – Where was it published or said?
    – Why wasn’t he disciplined for it until now?

    The fact that the actual “dissent” is never addressed smells more of personal or political differences between the two Michiganders than a real theological problems.

    I just want to see the thing made public.

    But I would prefer a debate to imapling a dead horse’s skull.

  30. Clinton says:

    This incident seems to have been forced on the good Bishop Sample. As he mentions, he had no desire to embarrass Bishop
    Gumbleton, The folks at Marquette Citizens for Peace and Justice handled this badly, and created an awkwardness for both
    Bishops and made themselves look like amateurs. It would be best if the CP&J would man up, admit that they bungled, and
    work more closely with their Ordinary next time.

    If the quotes from Ms. Dreisbach, with their references to the Middle Ages and denial of civil rights are any indication, the
    CP&J may be opting for the low road of swanning about claiming persecution. Pity. Behavior like that will only shrink the
    pool of reputable people who’ll deal with them.

    This sort of faux pas is not the exclusive domain of the port side of the Barque of Peter — remember when the Cardinal Archbishop
    of Westminster denied Archbishop Burke permission to come to London to say an EF Mass ? The Latin Mass Society hadn’t secured
    clearance from the chancery before issuing the invitation. The incident was awkward for everyone. While it pains me to see
    +Burke or the LMS in a rough patch, the Cardinal was right to defend his prerogative.

    As for ‘Malta’ and his/her post — if you have concrete evidence of the truth of what you say, then you should take that up with
    the competent Church and civil authorities. If you do not, then you have no business making those sorts of statements, and you
    owe those men a public apology. For shame!

  31. Sid says:

    Had most USA bishops in the past 40 years said and did as Sample, the contemporary Church would stand as a fortress in a savage world and a light in a new dark age.

  32. frobuaidhe says:

    I object to Virgil’s disparaging the Mediaeval era. There was more barbarism enacted inside and outside the Church in the twentieth century than in any equivalent period in the Middle Ages.

  33. Grabski says:

    Virgil How about the civil response: Bp Gumbleton apologizes for a) not going through protocol and b) leaking to the press and making a public scandal of a private matter?

    Rather, since his side wants to undermine the Church by insisting it is ‘authoritarian’, he does not apologize and rather plays the role of the poor, put upon liberal just pining for social justice.

  34. Virgil: Why are “we” offering kudos?

    “We” aren’t. I am. This is my blog.

    On your blog you can do as you please.

    You don’t think Bp. Sample did the right thing.

    But let’s be clear about the “we”.

  35. Scott W. says:

    When the Vatican came out in praise of Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize…

    No, what that Vatican did was offer pro forma congratulations which it has an normative obligation to do. Fr. Kevin Hanlon put it well:

    “The Vatican has the responsibility to be diplomatic. We may not see this as a Christian virtue, but is nonetheless a prerequisite for normal social intercourse in diplomacy. To not issue a pro forma congrats like the one they did would say that they no longer wish to associate diplomatically with the rest of the world. Their congrats, as it is, went basically unnoticed by the rest of the world because it was no more than pro forma, which was probably their intention; had they issued no congrats, that would get us very negative intention. Give them a break. They know when to pick their battles, and this was not the time.” I leave the Sarkozy stuff to others but interject that the Obama story is not necessarily connected.

    As far as the Gumbleton “Gee, let’s dialog!” canard, we should all take an intellectual honesty test:

    1. Are homosexual acts as the Catechism says, “acts of grave depravity” and that “Under no circumstances can they be approved.”?

    2. Is the ordination of woman something which, as Ordinatio Sacerdotalis says (and binds the faithful to hold definitively), “the Church has no authority whatsoever” to do?

    I say yes to both and I’m going to suggest that anyone who answers anything other than yes to the above is full of dingo’s kidneys when they nanner on about, “Gee, is this really about theological differences?” Affirm both and then we can talk.

  36. Athelstan says:

    Hello Virgil,

    Why wasn’t he disciplined for it until now?

    That is an excellent question.

    The fact that the actual “dissent” is never addressed smells more of personal or political differences between the two Michiganders than a real theological problems.

    What it smells of is either misplaced charity or cowardice.

  37. Malta says:

    Clinton: I do have “concrete evidence” for the comment you refer to, but you are correct that I should not have made it, and I’m glad Fr. Z removed it. My apologies. [NB: That sort of thing will also result in removal of more than a comment.]

  38. salus says:

    Auxiliary Bishop Thomas Gumbleton should be in Washington D.C. outside the White House screaming for an end of the war and the removal of the troops, remember when President Bush was in office they did that, why now the silence under Obama? Hmmmmmmm?

  39. If I knew nothing else about Bishop Gumbleton, the freaking rainbow design on his mitre would tell me all I needed to know. Holy crap.

  40. Fr. John Mary says:

    Thank you, Fr. Z. for eliminating that post that was surely a distraction from the present conversation.

  41. Scott W. says:

    If I knew nothing else about Bishop Gumbleton, the freaking rainbow design on his mitre would tell me all I needed to know. Holy crap.

    Indeed. Here is Ms. Schori’s Bed, Bath, and Beyond oven-mitt mitre. If that doesn’t make you swear off rainbows, you ARE in trouble:

    <img src=”http://themcj.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/schori.jpg” border=”0″

  42. Agnes says:

    Gumbleton owes Bishop Sample an apology – a public one, in light of the bugaboo. “What’s the big deal?” But it is a big deal – to walk into a man’s house and dirty the dishes without an invitation. It doesn’t seem like a simple oversight.

    I guess I am not holding my breath.

  43. Agnes says:

    Oh crap, that is ugly. Logging out!

  44. MichaelJ says:

    Virgil,

    I offer the following for your consideration

    Option 3. The Information Age Solution. Internet wags do a quick google search to identify what Bishop Gumbelton’s teaches and compare it to what the Catholic Church teaches. If a discrepancy is discovered, they offer “kudos” to Bishop Sample for protecting the integrity of the Church within his dioscese and avoid rashly judging the Bishop simply because the word “peace” appears in an organization’s name.

  45. kal says:

    Why wasn’t he disciplined for it until now?

    If I remember correctly, Bishop Gumbleton was “retired” shortly after his 75th birthday by Pope Benedict. I think he had requested to stay active as a bishop and the request was refused by the Holy See. I think he was pretty vocal about not wanting to retire. Shortly after that, Cardinal Maida removed him from his parish as pastor, again he was vocal about being removed. And I don’t think Bp. Sample is the first bishop to ask him not to speak in his diocese. A few years back, Call to Action in Arizona was upset because the Arizona bishops asked Gumbleton not to speak in any of their dioceses.

  46. Bobalouie says:

    For those in range of Boyne Falls, Mi (northern lower peninsula) this weekend is the annual Marian Conference which is featuring not only Bp Sample, but his old high school chum, Francis Beckwith. It will be a reunion for those two who haven’t seen each other since then. How cool is that??? A bishop and another famous convert, along the lines of Scott Hahn, who went to high school together in NEVADA!!! (can anything good come out of Nevada?)

  47. Tominellay says:

    I believe Bishop Gumbleton failed to submit his resignation at 75, and when he finally did on his 76th birthday, the pope accepted his resignation by return fax…

  48. Fr. John Mary says:

    Scott W: Holy Mother of God! I am…well…sick! Sensation overload:<)!

  49. It is reassuring to note that after the Church had dumped so many misfits and malcontents into the priesthood and thereby the hierarchy, It is taking serious steps to, in the words of Benedict XVI, REMOVE THE FILTH FROM THE PRIESTHOOD.

  50. Fr. John Mary says:

    William H. Phelan: …and I’m afraid it’s gonna take a while…we gotta pray the Rosary, A LOT!

  51. Kelly Mathews says:

    Fr. Z,

    Thank you for letting me register.

    Secondly, I drive a very old man with neither an ill word or off temperment to pick up his car from the rental place at the airport. I has spent the day with this little old man, who sat quietly and had thoughtful words to share with a group of clergy abuse survivors. He heard my confession and we parted ways.

    What did I learn from this little old man, Bishop Gumbleton? That we are all sinners, each and everyone of us.

    I certainly do not have every answer, but God does, and all this ‘gossiping’ about the who and what of the situation is really between two Bishops, and God.

  52. Fr. John Mary says:

    The “hissing, spitting, and growling” (to borrow a phrase) has commenced on the ncronline.org about this situation. Those who want to be faithful to the Church are now categorized as “orthotoxic”…I’m not kidding.

  53. irishgirl says:

    Paladin-what you said!

    Philip Gerard Johnson-what you said too!

    Scott W-words can’t describe that picture of ‘bishopess’ Schori and the getup she’s got on! Sensory overload, indeed…

    And Fr. Erik-you always tell it like it is!

    And so do you, Fr. Z! I join with you in saying ‘kudos to Bishop Sample’!

  54. Fr. John Mary says:

    I have to let you know this.
    The ncronline.org editor has omitted a terrible diatribe against Bishop Sample that called him a “Jackass”.
    That is incredible, and I’m thankful.
    There is always hope while we are live. Praise Jesus!

  55. Fr. John Mary says:

    That should be “while we are alive.”