WDTPRS POLL: “Third Secret” of Fatima

The Holy Father is in Fatima for the anniversary of the apparitions of Our Lady.

He has gone as a pilgrim to Fatima to pray for the Church, for priests and for peace in the world.

It would have made sense to go in 2007, but… no.  He went this year, for an anniversary of the beatification of Francesco and Jacinta.

His visit to Fatima was sure to arouse discussion of the so-called "third secret".

Many contend that there is a second part of the secret which was not revealed in 2000.  They speculate that the second part would probably involve the Blessed Virgin’s own explanation of the vision contained in the text released in 2000.  Some think that the actually explanation has to do with something so troubling that Pope’s did not want to reveal it, perhaps because it was about apostasy in the Church, or the Second Vatican Council, etc.

On the airplane to Portugal, the Holy Father chose to answer a question from a journalist about the Fatima message and secret.  The way I read his response, Benedict opened up an interpretation of the vision of the "third secret" that went beyond the interpretation he himself had given in 2000.  Pope Benedict’s answer tied the secret not to events just of the 20th century, but to something that is developing.

Pope Benedict has long known what the text of the "third secret" contains.   I have often wondered if he hasn’t tried to indicate something of the meaning of the text in that 9th Station of the Cross he wrote in 2005.  His comments about the "terrifying" effects of sin within the Church and his entrustment of priests to the Immaculate Heart of Mary – in Fatima – leads me to connect some dots. 

After all, in 1984 he told Vittorio Messori that the text wasn’t released in order to avoid "sensationalism".  But in 2000 in his theological reflection he began with the comment that people will probably find the text anti-climactic.

I digress.

Some say the whole text is definitively out.  Some say it isn’t.

The debate is not over.

But what do you think?

Here is a WDTPRS POLL.

Please respond with the answer that best fits your position and give your view in the combox:

{democracy:57}

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65 Responses to WDTPRS POLL: “Third Secret” of Fatima

  1. torch621 says:

    I firmly believe we were given the full secret, but if there is a second part, I pray our Holy Father reveals it. Such messages are sorely needed in these times.

  2. patrick_f says:

    I dont think we have the full secret… I think we have been given, bits of it, both to appease us, as ..well fragile humans… and also to not insult the obvoious, or ignore it

    You are absolutely right Fr. Z , if people DID know the whole truth they would sensationalize it.

    I know this effect well. I work with evangelicals, many of who believe in the “Rapture”…. One verse taken out of concept. Its amazing how they all cling to it… and ignore the 30 or so verses that speak to the contrary. People take a mile when you give them an inch

  3. ghlad says:

    It is odd that the Fatima message, for example, in the second part, specifically names Russia in association with a great war, eventually asking for and receiving the consecration of Russia to Mary.

    And now the third part of the message, involves the persecution of priests and even/especially the Holy Father himself. And what does Benedict do? Consecrate the clergy to Mary.

    It really, really seems like there’s something extra that hasn’t been fully disclosed publicly, and perhaps for good reason.

    The timing of each consecration to Mary is also interesting. The consecration of Russia in 1952, after the Soviet Bloc had shored up power, but before they were able to flex and exert their influence; The Cold War was eventually won decisively in JPII’s reign without ruining the world. The consecration of the clergy to Mary now in 2010, after the great decades of abuse had spread error and heresy and distrust among the Church, but like the consecration to Russia, perhaps before a calamitous and definitive persecution of the Church. Just thinking out loud here.

  4. Maltese says:

    I am not a fervent follower, nor an ardent advocate of the “Fatimists” (a disparaging term,) but I do very much admire Christopher Ferrara–who was the lawyer who fought for Terri Schiavo–who is an appeals-court attorney. He is utterly convinced that the full message has not been revealed:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPHHCWJSv6o

    I think that he gives a pretty good case that some dots are missing between the 2000 version of the 3rd Secret, and what has been written and spoken before.

    From this, I digress (but, I believe, am still on-point): Msgr. Gherardini has written an ground-breaking book (yes, “ground-breaking,” these things have been said before, but not from such an eminent contemporary Theologian, and printing from inside the Vatican itself,) “Vatican II, a Much Needed Discussion.”

    He is a theologian, working within the Vatican, who condemns portions of the documents and the modernist theology which circumnavigated around and within Vatican II. Gherardini posits that it’s possibly the council documents themselves which have led to such confusion in the Church. For instance, Msgr. Gherardini says that, “…the modernist corruption had hidden itself within the Council documents themselves…” (pg. 92.) He elsewhere argues that, though the Holy Spirit may be present at a “pastoral council,” the wills of individual men can drown Him out (cf. pg. 28). On the other hand, he calls Vatican II a valid council, though a fallible one, being the first-ever “pastoral” council in the history of the Church. This contrast has led to much of the confusion we’ve had in the last 50 years: not one new statement (except for reiterated dogma) is infallible in the documents of Vatican II.

    I REALLY don’t think the Vatican is “lying.” I think they gave the full Secret in their minds, but that there is an “extraneous” text attached to it, which could be damaging to the Church, which has not been revealed.

  5. When I was a teenager, I was very interested — perhaps preoccupied — with the Fatima apparitions. In the last ten years, I came to consider this preoccupation unhealthy. I’ve wanted meat-and-potatoes Catholicism, such as one finds in the works of Blessed Columba Marmion.

    Very recently, however, I’ve begun to reconsider my decision not to pay attention to Our Lady’s message at Fatima. I’ve discerned that I am in fact called to devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

    Concerning the Third Secret, I’m convinced that a separate part of the Third Secret has been withheld, especially after reading this: http://www.secretstillhidden.com/book.html. It disgusts me, but does not surprise me. The upshot is that Our Lady provided a spoken secret, to which the vision of the “Bishop in white” is connected, and which Our Lady’s words explained. Given the disclosures from many different sources, including Cardinal Ratzinger, this part of the Third Secret predicted apostasy in the Church, starting at the top, along with a disaster that kills millions of people. In other words, there is a spiritual disaster and a material disaster.

    I believe, sadly, that Pope John XXIII decided not to release the Third Secret because it would provide ammunition to opponents of Vatican II. Later, Cardinal Ratzinger said that releasing the Third Secret would cause “disequilibrium” in the Church. There’s much more. Read the book online, as well as Socci’s book, The Fourth Secret. They don’t want to release the other part of the Third Secret because it will discredit the hierarchy. I believe that this is an example of worldly and “diplomatic” thinking, which is the bane of the Vatican. It shows a lack of trust in God. And, as we’ve seen so many times in salvation history, it will prove fruitless, because “what is said in secret will be proclaimed from the rooftops.”

    The short, simple message given by Our Lady to Sister Agnes at Akita, Japan in 1973 was confirmed by Cardinal Ratzinger to be essentially the same as that of Fatima. That message concerns apostasy, cardinals, bishops and priests opposed to one another, the sacking of churches and altars, and a physical chastisement. None of that is in the first two Fatima Secrets or in the part of the Third Secret that describes the vision.

    They probably tell themselves in the Vatican that, insofar as the undisclosed part of the Third Secret indicts Vatican II and the government of the Church since 1960, it is “inauthentic.” Again, I find this disgusting. God will not be mocked.

  6. Oneros says:

    If the whole secret hasn’t been released, then they are all (including and especially the present Pope) liars.

    And I refuse to believe that.

    Ineffectual shrinking violet Benedict may be, but he is simply not a blatant liar like that.

    I think it is MUCH more likely that the Secret was not released until 2000 because they were worried it didn’t live up to the hype that developed, rather than because it was TOO sensational.

    Remember, it was Sister Lucia’s own decision to put the “1960″ benchmark in place; that came from her, not heaven.

    There is no reason to believe this Secret would be any more specific than the first two.

    People have an unhealthy obsession with this, and have turned it into a sort of Gnostic Myth or conspiracy theory. The secret was one little slip of paper kept in some filing cabinet in the Vatican, there is no reason to believe all sorts of people have seen it and are covering it up. If that were the case someone would have leaked the full text. Any hearsay from people who haven’t seen the text themselves…is just that.

    These people will just keep insisting on this indefinitely, and there is no way to appease them because you can’t prove a negative.

  7. Oneros says:

    Also, if her will was being circumvented, Our Lady could just appear again and reveal the Secret. I mean, come on people, keep your heads on.

  8. Oneros, she did appear again and reveal the secret: Akita, in 1973.

    And it is a canard that Lucia set the 1960 date of her own accord. Read the book I link above.

  9. Jack Hughes says:

    I believe that certain people get overly worked up about the 3rd secret, they fail to remember that the apparitions of Our Blessed Mother are not binding upon the faithfull i.e. one can be a perfectly good Catholic and not believe that Our Lady appeared to 3 shepherd children.

    Having said that I believe in the authentiicity in the apparitions, I also believe that we’ve been told the whole story, I don’t have anytime for trads who’ve dream up conspiracy theories and put the apparitions on a par with the Sacred Dogmas of our Faith, my involvement is limited to simply fullfilling Our Lady’s request to pray the Rosary and to do pennance.

  10. shin says:

    I don’t think it takes blatant lies to cover up the third secret, just diplomatic and circumspect or ambiguous language. In spirit it is deceptive it is true, but in letter it is not, it all depends on your ‘interpretation’. A diplomat could see it as ‘in the best interest’ of the people it not come out, and consider this ‘greater good’ the spirit of not revealing it with a little careful footwork.

    That said I don’t know whether it is all out or not. But let’s face it, anything as catastrophic as we’ve been through in the past few decades has got to have some prophecies about it. And any prophecies about it, an unapologetic hierarchy still pushing the new vision rather than taking responsibility for the harm done — there’s a vested interest in not having revealed.

    So, if it does exist, and so likely says what it’s suspected to say, Pope John XXIII-Pope Benedict XVI all had an interest in NOT having it revealed. For the first it predicted failure rather than the bright vision the first had, for the latter it pointed at their own faults and undercuts their work, and mobilizes the faction that opposes it thoroughly. So it can’t come out, if it says what it is suspected to say, until a Pope arrives who is against the new way of doing things, or one of the new guard has a change of heart.

  11. dallas says:

    Do the doubters think that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI lied?

  12. Here is the message of Our Lady at Akita, Japan, on October 13, 1973, an apparition whose authenticity has been approved by the Church (i.e., the local bishop):

    As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms that will remain for you will be the Rosary and Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the pope, the bishops, and the priests.

    The work of the devil will infiltrate even the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their conferees…churches and altars sacked, the Church will be full of those who accept compromise and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of My sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.

    Read more about the connections between Akita and the Third Secret here: http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0531-ferrara-fatima_and_akita.htm

  13. shin says:

    Just so, and then Our Lady of Good Success too.

    I think that people who could write ambiguous and vague encyclicals that take a microscope to even begin to understand if such is even possible are good at using obfuscatory language about things and have few if any qualms about it.

  14. kat says:

    shin said:

    “I think that people who could write ambiguous and vague encyclicals that take a microscope to even begin to understand if such is even possible are good at using obfuscatory language about things and have few if any qualms about it.”

    I have to admit that I even found it difficult to understand what the Pope was saying the other day in the quotes Father posted when Benedict was going to Fatima. It was really unclear what he exactly was trying to say. Maybe it was the translation; maybe I’m just too dumb. But for whatever reason, it was very confusing.

  15. mike cliffson says:

    I want to vote for the first two options together.
    (Sorry, I,m sometimes 100% Irish in mentality, Tho only 33,3% by blood(Irish granfather on one side, greatgr. t’ther=1/3)
    Rationale:
    Peace now in wwI andavoid errors exRussia: More than met the eye, for wxample people sais oh ah communism, labelled it and left. LONG story
    3·rd secret ditto, let alone all the private talks etc of past ope, present, etc…
    Well, holy father is already filling us in, isn’t he?
    So there’s more TO LEARN

    Thing abt fatima gives me the willies:
    the kids needed to be shown hell so that we might take heed…..

    Not that we should doubt God’s love..
    But the devil blinds us to what we’re risking..
    Can’t express it properly
    Father, U got a take on that on a post I never saw?

  16. I think the secrets are all out. Sr. Lucia said they are all out. Even if there were something still undisclosed, we know the parts we need to know: repent, pray and do penance. The time we spend coming up with conspiracy theories about a “fourth secret” is time taken away from doing those three things.

    P.S. Pope Benedict is NOT an “ineffectual shrinking violet.”

  17. Oneros says:

    “And it is a canard that Lucia set the 1960 date of her own accord. Read the book I link above.”

    If you accept all this “information” about envelopes and second envelopes and all this stuff we couldn’t possibly know. Anyone who had that information could have read the secret themselves.

    There are several critiques typically applied to conspiracy theories that definitely apply here:

    -The more wide-ranging and pervasive the conspiracy is alleged to be, the greater the number of people would have to be involved in perpetrating it

    -does the alternative story explain more of the evidence than the mainstream story, or is it just a more complicated and therefore less useful explanation of the same evidence?

    -is it possible to demonstrate that specific claims of the theory are false, or are they “unfalsifiable”?

    There are “books” on all sorts of conspiracy theories. Dont let yourself be convinced so easily.

  18. SkiingCatholic2010 says:

    It seems to me that a lot of people are all to eager to dismiss the possibility that we’ve been lied to do. They don’t look at the evidence, because they don’t want to see it.

    That was the case for me anyway, until a friend forced me to take a close look.

  19. Leonius says:

    April, 1984 – Most Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, after years of extensive investigation, declares the events of Akita, Japan, to be of supernatural origin, and authorises throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita. He said: “The message of Akita is the message of Fatima.”

    June, 1988 – Vatican City – Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.

    The messages of Akita where:

    1. ” Pray very much for the Pope, the bishops and the priests.”

    2.

    “Many men in this world afflict the Lord. I desire souls to console Him to soften the anger of the Heavenly Father. I wish, with my Son, for souls who will repair by their suffering and their poverty for the sinners and ingrates.”

    “In order that the world might know His anger, the Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind. With my Son, I have intervened so many times to appease the wrath of the Father. I have prevented the coming of calamities by offering Him the sufferings of the Son on the Cross, His Precious Blood, and beloved souls who console Him and form a cohort of victim souls. Prayer, penance and courageous sacrifices can soften the Father’s anger. I desire this also from your community, that it love poverty, that it sanctify itself and pray in reparation for the ingratitude and outrages of so many men. Recite the prayer of the Handmaids of the Eucharist with awareness of its meaning: put it into practice: offer (whatever God may send) in reparation for sins. Let each one endeavour, according to capacity and position, to offer herself entirely to the Lord.”

    “Even in a secular institute prayer is necessary. Already souls who wish to pray are on the way to being gathered. Without attaching too much attention to the form, be faithful and fervent in prayer to console the Master.”

    3. “. . . if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests.”

    “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.”

    “The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”

    “. . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”

  20. gloriainexcelsis says:

    May I recommend the revised and expanded edition of “The Devil’s Final Battle,” by Father Paul Kramer? It gives one pause. I, for one, do believe that we are well into the age of the Great Apostasy. I also believe that our Popes, from Pope Pius XII on, for whatever reason, have not, with all the bishops, consecrated Russia ALONE to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. That was the request. If it had been done, where is the period of peace for mankind? Where is the true vanquishing of communism and its errors which continue to be spread – and now in our own country if we open our eyes. Pray the Rosary. Do Penance. Pray that Russia will at last have that Consecration. Pray for the Pope. “He will have much to suffer.”

  21. rachmaninov says:

    Father,
    I dont know of your views on Fr Gobbi (but he was popular with Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Dias is a member of the MMP), but in his messages on more than one occasion Our Lady explained the third secret long before it was revealed. Please allow me to give the most detailed explanation from a message dated March 11 1995, given to Fr Gobbi in Fatima itself.AS people read this bear in mind the twofold aspect of the vision released in 2000 ie the city in ruins and the martyrdom of the Church.
    “My secret concerns the church. In the Church the great apostasy, which will spread throughout the world, will be brought to its completion;schism will come about in the general distancing from the Gospel and from the true faith. Into it there will enter the man of iniquity,who oppose himself to Chrst, and who will bear within himself the abomination of desolation,giving in this way fulfillment to the horrible sacrilege, of which the prophet Daniel spoke(Matt 2:15).
    My secret concerns humanity. Humanity will come to the peak of corruption and impiety, rebellion against God and open opposition to His Law of love. It will know the hour of its greatest punishment,which has already been foretold to you by the prophet Zechariah (Zech.13:7-9)”
    Now to me if these revelations are true,why would Our Lady feel the need to give this detailed explanation? Would it be because of all the confusion of the past decade concerning the vatican interpretation. what is clear is that surely any direct or indirect mention of the coming of the antichrist would be seen as something Rome would feel it had to keep quiet about.

  22. “Do the doubters think that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI lied?”

    dallas, as someone who voted that not all has been revealed, I don’t think this means that John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI lied or are lying (I can only speak for myself, of course). Perhaps a willful omission has been made, perhaps at the request of Sr. Lucia, or even Our Lady, herself. It’s not for me to speculate as to motivation when I certainly haven’t a clear picture or important facts.

    Also, it should be pointed out that not all lies are matter for sin. For example, a person in Nazi Germany who was hiding Jews would not have been culpable of sin if he told the Gestapo, “No, I don’t know of any Jews hiding around here.” It should also be pointed out that even if John Paul II or Benedict XVI have out and out lied, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time a pope has done so.

  23. M.D. says:

    — — — —
    Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

    And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.

    Sister Lucia 12 May 1982

    — — — —

    Sr. Lucia gave an indication, that in her understanding, we did not heed this appeal of the Message. I don’t think many can claim we, as a Christian generation, ever did. Who knows what we have prepared for ourselves?

  24. haleype says:

    Let’s face it. Our religion depends on the faithful being able to trust the clergy who dispense the sacraments. If, for example, the faithful come to the conclusion that they cannot trust the priest in the confessional, how long do you think they will continue to practice their Faith. The Holy Father knows this trust has been severely damaged in recent times and he knows what the consequences of that damaged trust will be. He also knows that this trust must be regained, or should I say earned, once again by priests willing to set the example like the Cure D’Ars, Padre Pio, and the like, acting like priests not rock stars or celebrities. The traditional orders, and I include the FSSPX in this, have much to offer in this earning of trust but will they be unshackled and unleashed? That is the question that I hope will be answered in this Year of the Priest.

  25. Maltese says:

    Mulligan: The short, simple message given by Our Lady to Sister Agnes at Akita, Japan in 1973 was confirmed by Cardinal Ratzinger to be essentially the same as that of Fatima.

    The chatty-kathy at Medjugorje is very much opposed to this model, yet, the Medjugorje “seers” are exalted and made millionaires, whereas the Sr. Agnes was chased-out by her modernist bishop! (and the seers of Fatima, as well as Lourdes, were cloistered nuns living in abject poverty.)

    http://www.angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=309873&highlight=&sid=228d2d44a2aef44e5a0441ab48301dde

    In any case, Akita is a Church approved apparition which says that Bishops will oppose Bishops.

    I think Akita is troubling, if we objectively look at it. I find more troubling that the Church chose to re-shake the Church at Vatican II–at the very time when she needed stability! WHAT-WERE-THEY-THINKING?

    Yeah, sure, “rapprochement” and “aggiornamento!” Sickly-sweet words for “we are liberal boobs, and shall do what we can to undermine tradition, but make it look good!”

    Nice try, guys! You fumbled the ball, big-time!

    We are picking-up-the-pieces and trying to re-build your selfish mess (cause, it’s all about YOU!)

  26. Um, ixnay on The Devil’s Final Battle. Several chapters of this book are available online, including one in which then-Cardinal Ratzinger is mentioned by name as one of a cadre of Church higher-ups that is trying to “murder” (the author’s very word) the message of Fatima. That must be why he’s at Fatima right now. So I say, PASS.

  27. Geoffrey says:

    I voted that we have everything there is to know. Clinging to the belief that the Holy See is keeping something secret or hasn’t properly consecrated Russia, etc., is the stuff of conspiracy theorists (usually of the “traditionalist” persuasion).

    In the end, all authority lies with the Holy Father. “Where Peter is, there is the Church.” Whatever he or his predecessors or successors say or do is good enough for me. He is in charge, I am not. I will rest easy. Laudetur Iesus Christus!

  28. alanphipps says:

    Amen, Anita! Thank you.

  29. bookworm says:

    I think Pope Benedict made a very important point about the secret not having to be tied to particular people or events. In some respects, Catholics who obsess about the details of the third secret and whether or not the consecration requested by Our Lady has “really” taken place, are similar to Protestants who treat the Book of Revelation as a detailed road map of the end times, a puzzle to be solved, or a secret code to be cracked.

    The Book of Revelation is NOT about trying to figure out who the beast, the false prophet, the Whore of Bablyon, etc. are or will be. Its main purpose was to encourage Christians who were being persecuted, in a SYMBOLIC language that they would understand (even if we don’t), and assure them that their suffering would ultimately not be in vain.

    Likewise the message of Our Lady in any genuine apparition is designed first and foremost to encourage prayer, penance and conversion, not amateur sleuthing or conspiracy theories. I have no problem believing that the third secret is simply a symbolic representation of the suffering the Church and its popes endured under communism and will continue to endure in various forms. To try to pin it to a particular pope or a particular era in history (e.g. the Cold War or the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II) may diminish the real significance of the message.

  30. Mike says:

    I must say that I was one of the people who answered that I wasn’t familiar with the apparitions. It wasn’t that I was completely unfamiliar, but that I hadn’t read anything about the third secret beyond the analysis of Benedict’s interview on the plane to Fatima posted here. Answering the poll did prompt me to read the official correspondence on the Vatican website between Sr. Lucia, PJP2, and others. I posted that link and the text of the third secret on my *new blog* :) which I have made my summer break project.

    My blog is only a day old but perhaps you would check it out occasionally. (I hope I can post something interesting that isn’t just a repost of Fr. Z. and the other Catholic Blog giants).

  31. Mike says:

    Of course I failed to provide you all a link: http://stayingontherock.wordpress.com.

  32. Joseph says:

    Ultimately I think those speculations are an unwelcome distraction for the actual message. What difference would it make to the main thrust of our Holy Mother’s message, if there is something additional. We ought not to have itchy ears, that is all.

  33. mdsmelser says:

    I am not moved to believe conspiracy theories generally, as it is next to impossible for anyone to keep a secret, especially today with efficiencies in disseminating information via the internet. Most conspiracy theories come about because there are real reasons for them, but once the secret is out, and known, then the “conspiracy” is over, and you just have various factions with agendas that are now public knowledge, ie: Fed Reserve, Tri-Lateral Commission, One-Worlders, Birthers, etc. Here we are talking about actually keeping a secret for 80 years. Come on, now.

    Frankly, what was revealed in 2000 was not very interesting in today’s “news” saturated world, had already been guessed at pretty closely, and was a big let-down because of that. That is why people want more … there must be more (!), because what was revealed was not exciting enough for our tragedy TV-crazed society – not because there really IS more.

    I also noticed those folks who prefer to believe there is “more to the secret” are often those who are very unhappy with VAT II and its terrible aftermath – and would like the 3rd secret to address this unhappy situation … maybe this is wishful thinking?

    That is my guess/ 2 cents.

  34. kolbe1019 says:

    Ratzinger himself said that Akita was the continuation of the Fatima message… however nothing revealed in 2000 matches the message of Our Lady of Akita… However JP2 Mentions the dragon using his tail two swipe out a third of the stars in the sky… the stars representing the church hierarchy the dragon appearing as himself…

    For more about Akita without having to read… I made this video ;) Enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OTxTIbUWfA

    For some reason Cardinal Bertone has played a role in all of these situations… something to ponder in our hearts…

  35. colospgs says:

    I think the third secret has been published. What I don’t get is how the assasination attempt on JPII could possibly be what was described in the third secret. I read Cardinal Bertone’s book on this subject and just couldn’t see how that would jive with the very dramatic words used in the secret. I believe that the third secret is something that is now and for a long time to come still playing out.

  36. kolbe1019 says:

    Jp2 and B16 were not lying… All was revealed, but you were not informed that is was being revealed. No doubt they could say with a clear conscience that the secrets have been revealed… Really what does it matter??? Penance, Penance, Penance… thats what really matters. OLOF taught us Reparation, Daily Rosaries, and reverance to the most Blessed Sacrament and His real presence… If we do this daily all will be wel…iff we dont all will be hell.

  37. iudicame says:

    I’m all for what HAS been revealed. Also up for getting the WHOLE truth. My heart IS troubled by what is happening in the world and in The Church – if this Secret is part of it then its just another thing to deal with in its proper perspective. I hardly consider its consideration on a blog(s) as getting too “worked up”.

    m

  38. historyb says:

    I do not think all the secret is out, when I first saw it in 2000 I had an unease in my soul that there was more and it was not good and best not to be all divulged yet

  39. Igne says:

    Personally, as an orthodox Catholic who loves the traditional rite I find all this Fatima occultism a bit too kooky. The scriptures, our traditions, and the Holy Ghost at work is enough. He is with us always, even to the end of time. That is more than enough for us. The precision with which people approach this ‘apparition’ and others tends to distract. Pray for His Holiness because we are so weak.

  40. paulbailes says:

    Re the discussion over “lying”, Popes are infallible not indefectible. Of course it’s sinful unnecessarily to accuse someone of lying, but maybe Fr Z can advise us about whether or not politely raising questions about evident inconsistencies in the Vatican’s account of the 3rd secret oversteps the boundaries of charity.

    While we’re on the topic however, I’d like to remind readers of what I think is at least an equally important inconsistency: between the legal status of the TLM and what various V-II and after Popes have declared.

    The truth is of course that, as confirmed by B16, every priest has the right to offer the TLM, and always has since 1570 at least.

    The inconsistencies with that truth include at least
    (i) P6′s attempt to suppress the TLM
    (ii) the granting of “indults” by P6 and J-P2 to permit the TLM under restricted circumstances, when all along the unrestricted right to offer the TLM applied.

    I’m not saying that either of these Pontiffs lied when granting the indults; but rather that their variance with the truth about the TLM must make anyone wonder why.

    Further (speaking only for myself, but I guess others will be on this page with me), if Pontiffs can make declarations about the TLM that are inconsistent with the Truth, then you have to understand why some people (e.g. SSPX leadership) may continue to maintain a degree of prudent restraint in their engagement with Rome.

    God Bless
    Paul

  41. I’m going to speak from my secular Carmelite heart on this…

    I think we need to remember that the Secrets were entrusted to the Church. No where do we see an indication that the Church was obligated to divulge the Third Secret. For the faithful to have it, is not a right. We have what we have.

    That said, even if… if… if there was more to the Third Secret: What does it change? Will you pray more, do more penance, and practice the virtues more?

    Our Lady, through Sr. Lucia, entrusted these things to the Church. That which has been given to us, is what the Church wants us to have. Accept this with humility and move on instead of making demands on the Church for something the faithful have not been given the right to demand.

    The Holy Father seems to be trying to shift the minds and hearts of people to devoting their time to prayer and penance – the heart of the Fatima message. As the Blessed Mother said of Our Lord, “Do whatever he tells you”! Listen to the Holy Father. Do people have so little faith to think that if the Blessed Mother, and ultimately, God Himself, wanted us to have more than we have, if all was not given to us, the Holy Father would be moved by extraordinary grace to give it to us?

    Looking at the life of sacrifice lived by Blessed Jacinta, and reading about her life and the kinds of sacrifices she made, consider letting go of of these demands upon the Church for more, and offer up your will for more as a sacrifice. More good can come from prayers and sacrifices, than from endless prodding of the Church to give more than she has deemed necessary.

    Next to giving up one’s life, there is nothing greater than giving up one’s will. Letting go of the will to have more and spending that time in even more prayer and reparation is a worthy sacrifice to make. Trust the Holy Father, Our Lord, and the Blessed Virgin Mary, to handle the rest.

  42. I take great offense to what some of what has been written in The Devil’s Final Battle by Father Paul Kramer (recommended by gloriainexcelsis here).

    Consider what I have stated above: No where is it written that the faithful have a right to any part of that Third Message, which was entrusted to the Church.

    Here is just one example:

    Especially in view of the events of June 26-27, 2000 and during the months following, the proof now suffices to identify the four men we must in conscience accuse in this book. They are:

    Cardinal Angelo Sodano
    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
    Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone
    Cardinal Dario Castrillón Hoyos

    Why these four men and not others? As we have already shown, it is these men who have taken the lead in attempting nothing less than the murder of the Message of Fatima, and with it the Heaven-sent hope of the world in our time. They have combined and conspired, and then acted publicly, to impose upon the Church a version of the Fatima Message that bears no resemblance to the Catholic prophecy the Mother of God delivered to the world for the aid of all humanity. While these four men obviously have many collaborators in what Pope Paul VI rued as the “auto-demolition” of the Church, it is they who have specialized, as it were, in the demolition of Fatima. Thus they deserve to be identified as the principals of the crime we allege here.

    But there is much more evidence of this crime, and our case is far from complete. We will now examine in more detail the basic elements of proof we have outlined so far. We will begin, in the next chapter, with a more detailed examination of Cardinal Ratzinger’s “interpretation” of the Third Secret of Fatima, a key element of the effort to bury the Fatima Message once and for all.

    Recall that there is only one Just Judge who will sort these things out. The same Just Judge will be evaluating whether people allowed themselves to fall into rash judgment and calumny, which is grave matter.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I trust Jesus Christ when he said that the Church would prevail – another point Pope Benedict reminded made on his trip to Fatima. Knowing anything more than has been given to us, even if there is more, is not required for salvation.

    It seems that people are placing not even the private revelation itself above the Gospel, but speculation about the private revelation.

    Further, Christopher Ferrara (The Secret Still Hidden), who is seen in that video of the Fatima Challenge, has been publicly defending Fr. Gruner whose a divinis suspension was confirmed by the Apostolic Signatura in 2001 Ferrara’s condescending diatribes on this are truly offputting.

    Gruner, Ferrara, Kramer, et al are distracting people from the core message of Fatima. How many ore souls can they save, and conversions can they bring about if all that time was spent in prayer and adoration than spreading the kind of trash I quoted above.

  43. Diane, under canon law, the faithful have the right, and sometimes the duty, to petition their pastors, up to and including the Holy Father. These do not have to be considered “demands.”

  44. momoften says:

    Diane, I believe all your comments are well put. Too often we get caught up in a sort of secular sensationalism. We need to step back and act like adults and NOT get caught up in it. The messages (and secrets) were not meant to absorb our time wondering, but doing. It seems the devil is at work here.
    When the 3rd secret was revealed, remember Lucia was still alive. I believe if something had been done incorrectly(as in the secret revealed incorrectly or incompletely), she would have spoken, she did not. It is my guess that not all has been revealed as we would have had the original document displayed when the secret was revealed. There may be a reason for this. But we may not be privy to why. I don’t think it is NECESSARY we know everything. I think what we are suppose to know has been revealed. So, for now, I thank the Blessed Mother for appearing to the 3 young children of Fatima and giving us her simple messages to live by. On this feast of Our Lady of Fatima, may we all pray to her that she continues to intercede for us and help Our Holy Father!

  45. Andrew says:

    I always try to keep in mind that my faith is based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Any messages and secrets and apparitions must be viewed in light of the Gospel. And they cannot contain anything new. The message of the Gospel remains the same for all times: repent and believe. And I get the feeling that one can get derailed by excessive curiosity. If the Blessed Mother wanted us to know something, She would know how to make sure that we found out. As it is, everything we need to know is taught by the Church. What secret would there be that we needed to know and it’s been held back? That everyone, including priests and even popes can fail? Hello! Is that something new? That humanity might provoke the Divine wrath? That’s new? What deep secrets should I expect to find out?

  46. Stirling says:

    I feel similarly to Andrew above. No vision can add or remove anything from the faith. Maintain vigilance “for yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord shall so come, as a thief in the night.”

  47. Andrew says:

    I believe all this obsession with the Third Secret of Fatima, is unhealthy.

    The message after all was meant to be for the Pope. It was not incumbent on the late John Paul II to reveal the Third Secret, but it seems that its revelation, has not silenced the critics.

    When I look at some of the individuals who promote this “Fourth Secret of Fatima”, they don’t seem like impartial judges, but to have a wider agenda which is for a traditionalist, muscular, visceral kind of Catholicism.

    The fact that this part of the Secret has been supposedly withheld weakens their vision of realizing this kind of Church. In other words they want the Third Secret to be a reiteration of what they want to hear, rather than being content with whatever message the Mother of God brings.

    As someone who has a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, if you talk about this subject with rank outsiders, I guarantee you if they have any knowledge at all about this, the first thing they will bring up is “the third secret”. Few people have knowledge of the Fatima message which is prayer, penance, and reparation, and even less would they know about the spirituality of the little shepherds by having read Sr Lucia’s Memoirs.

    At the end of the day couldn’t it argued that a message that was meant for the Pope, is his business, and not really ours?

    We don’t need a private revelation to confirm for us that some things in the Catholic Church went somewhat pear-shaped after Vatican II. Thankfully, we have a pope who seems to be aware about this problem, and we must trust that slowly we are moving away from this era.

    Today in Fatima, Pope Benedict offered a heartfelt plea to hasten the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, promised to the little seers. Let us implore the Mother of Christ for this, because that will mean benefits for Holy Mother Church, as well.

    But we are hardly moving in this direction, if most of our Fatima time is taken up with endless speculation about what happened to a message that should not concern us anyway.

    Don’t you think if we are missing some vital knowledge, Our Lady couldn’t just appear to us, and tell us what it is?

  48. Larry R. says:

    I think alot of people are looking for that great ‘AHA!’ moment with regard to any unrevealed secret. I’m not sure the full secret has been revealed, but I also don’t expect anything earth-shaking or even anything that will give a traditionalist like me more evidence concerning the afflictions the Church has suffered over the last 50 or so years. I don’t think there’s going to be some clear message that the Church was about to apostasize mightily. Even if the message did say that, I don’t know if it makes any difference. I think some people are just looking for validation of their already held notions.

  49. Larry R. says:

    And just for another view, John Salza, whose works are fantastic for apologetics and formation(I use them in my classes), has his views of the Fatima secrets and what they mean. He ties in the Secrets of Fatima with the influence of Masonism in the Church – he being a former Mason tends to see alot of Masonic influence. Not sure I accept all this, but I think it worth your time: http://www.fatimachallenge.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:masonry-unmasked&catid=21&Itemid=15

  50. Dear Timothy,

    You are right in this regard, as stated in the CCC:

    907 “In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons.”443

    However, we are all bound not only by Truth, but Truth in charity and in justice.

    How, in the example I provided, in which Father Kramer accuses four members of the hierarchy, including then Cardinal Ratzinger, of a “crime”, does this square with charity and justice? Take careful note of the CCC with regards to rash judgment and how we are to interpert our neighbors words and actions:

    2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

    Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

    Before we go any further on this discussion about the Third Secret: What does the CCC say about pursuit of Truth? Here are a few things to keep in mind:

    2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

    And, since the Third Secret was entrusted to the Church, not to the faithful themselves, it is the responsibility of the Sacred Pastors to also discern what is appropriate to reveal.

    2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283,

    Now I raise a fundamental question once again: What right does anyone have to a secret entrusted to the Church or to the Pope?

    Even if I assume all of the speculative claims about the Third Secret to be true, knowing this, in the kind of details sought by those who seek it, does not change the past, the present or the future. Rather, it is the grace of prayer and reparation which has this ability to change outcomes. Is it possible that we witnessed this with Pope John Paul II when he did not die from the bullet?

    Further, if I assume all of the speculative claims are true, does making it public help affirm people in their faith, or cause scandal? Pope Benedict XVI has that to balance on his shoulders and if there is anything more to the Third Secret than the Holy See has chosen to reveal, then he is accountable, not you or I, or Father Gruner. I choose to trust the Holy Father, accept with the simplicity a child what has been given to us, and to give to God all that remains.

    I fully trust the Blessed Virgin Mary and her ability to influence Holy Mother Church with extraordinary grace to reveal more if more needs to be reveals, if this has not been done.

  51. JonM says:

    I try to avoid these discussions because there is a tendancy for division to occur as a result. But given this forum, I think earnest pursuit of truth is welcomed, even if we differ.

    With this disclaimer in mind, it seems so obvious to me that we are in a state of notable and significant apostasy, that practical living of the Faith is scarce, and that a great number of members of the Church, including clergy, are heretics.

    Our culture in America and the West in general is governed by material comforts. In America, pursuit of money and sexual gratification are the ruling directives, not raising families and tradesmanship.

    Abortion and birth control (including grossly misapplied NFP) and pornography are so defining to our times that fewer than 15% of Catholics follow sacred teachings. These are direct results of a sexualized culture that, instead of self control or responsibility has decided killing offspring is prefered lest we have children to ‘crimp our style.’

    Meanwhile, prelates in America and England celebrate religious ‘ecumenism’ that has included praise for Catholics converting to Judaism and offerings at Hindu temples to false gods. Bishops even praise condemned principles such as religious freedom (that is, the natural freedom from the State declaring the Catholic faith the official religion) a uniquely freemasonic virtue.

    Churches have been sacked and their altars ripped out. In place of beautiful statues, mosaics, and elaborate altars is the horrifying sterility of freemasonic architecture.

    Demographics don’t lie. In the wake of four decades since Vatican II and the ‘embrace of the world,’ practice of the faith is drifting towards a murky abyss. European practice is so low, there is no reason to report it. In America, as Father Z posted a few months ago, about 18% of those who identify as Catholic regularly attend Mass (Pre-VII was around 3/4ths.) But perhaps the worst statistic was that of young adults and their views on marriage: fewer than 35% of those in their 20s stated that marriage was any priority.

    And amid all of the confusion, open heresy, and abuse of the Eucharist, it was the followers of Archbisop Lefebvre who were excommunicated!

    Now, in my life, I look back and see how evil has become firmly ensconced in common life. I also know how in Africa and East Asia, there would-be martyrs who risk torture and death just to be at the Sacrifice of the Mass.

    With this in mind, Our Lady’s periodic visits to warn us carry a certain continuity as in an epic story. Her message at Fatima was not the only instance of warning. Moreover, the apparition at Akita warned of exactly what we have seen – except for the great chastisement.

    As a new Catholic, I simply cannot understand viewing studying Fatima and Akita and concluding anything except that we are in gravely dangerous times.

    I think some are errecting a sophistic argument by claiming that attention to the Gospels or Magesterium suffer as people concern themselves with (approved) apparitions. It is not a matter of exclusivity; indeed, I’m not sure what one would do with an (approved) apparition if he was not also deeply concerned and governed by sacred teachings.

    As for some becoming too pre-occupied with Fatima, Akita, etc., this is very possible. But it would be unfair to color everyone devoted to Fatima with over-indulgance just as it would be unfair to assume all converts from Evangelicalism have failed to check their Protestant bags at the terminal.

    Also, since it came up… Popes are assured of doctrinal infallibility. If Pope Xx says green eggs and ham are required at 4am on Tuesdays to honor the contributions of Dr. Seuss, any good Catholic should assess the merits of such a directive. If Pope Xx says, I as the successor to Peter affirm that artificial birth control is gravely sinful, then good Catholics received their orders and should man their stations accordingly.

    Popes can sin and have done worse than obscure the full truth on an important matter. If we want a Pope who is perfect, we only will set ourselves up for disappointment. That’s why we should pray for Pope Benedict every day. I’m very thankful that God chose him to lead us and I am thankful that Pope Benedict has shown courage in the face of a terrible world.

    To close, I think what the core of Mary’s warnings at Fatima indicate is that we have entered a particularly noxious period of history and that extra efforts on a personal level will be necessary to maintain the Church’s relevance in our day to day lives and to avoid a cataclysmic result of mass sin.

  52. It seems to me we need to remember this: If the Church says it released the Third Secret, and we claim they are holding them back, we are claiming the Church *lied* to us.

    Now I am not saying these people have intended to say this of course, but it seems to follow from saying that the Church has not released the full text that the Church has been dishonest.

    I do not believe the Church has deceived us, so I trust that what they have said is the release of the full secret.

    To say otherwise requires hard evidence and not speculation.

    [Comments made here not aimed at Fr. Z or any people commenting above. I am merely making a general statement of my thoughts on the subject]

  53. Timothy,

    I want to further clarify what I meant by “demands”.

    It’s one thing to make known to the Sacred Pastors your concerns. It’s another when in the face of silence out of the Holy Father on these concerns, which are undoubtedly well known to him, people continue to push. This is, to me, a demand. It’s fruits are plainly visible: Division, suspicion of Church hierarchy (to the point of rash judgment and even potential calumny, both of which are grave matter), and a huge distraction from the heart of the Fatima message.

    The Holy Father is clearly trying to redirect people to the core message of Fatima because that is what is needed right now.

    For those who have not done so, read the memoirs of Sr. Lucia.

    To me, it is utterly ridiculous to read claims by some that Sr. Lucia was somehow coerced by Cardinal Bertone. I’m suppose to believe that a woman, who did not yield even to threats against her very life as a child, would yield to being coerced?

    It’s time for people to move on. Go to an adoration chapel and give these things over to God.

  54. Diane, you’re begging the question. Where are you getting the idea that the Third Secret was meant only for the Pope?

  55. Diane, if St. Catherine of Sienna simply went to an adoration chapel with her concerns, the Pope would still be residing in Avignon, France.

    Adieu!

  56. Timothy,

    The tone and tenor of the questions raised and concerns voiced throughout the web, and in books makes clear: None of these people are St. Catherine. But they could use to learn her virtue.

  57. Oneros says:

    “The truth is of course that, as confirmed by B16, every priest has the right to offer the TLM, and always has since 1570 at least.

    The inconsistencies with that truth include at least
    (i) P6’s attempt to suppress the TLM
    (ii) the granting of “indults” by P6 and J-P2 to permit the TLM under restricted circumstances, when all along the unrestricted right to offer the TLM applied.

    I’m not saying that either of these Pontiffs lied when granting the indults; but rather that their variance with the truth about the TLM must make anyone wonder why.”

    To clear this up: “Never abrogated” is not the same as priests being allowed to say it at their own will. Eastern Rites were never abrogated, but Western clerics can’t just say them without an indult to become Biritual.

    When it comes to canon law, there is no “truth” apart from what the Pope as supreme legislator implements. If a Pope requires an indult for it to be said…then that indult is and was required for as long as it is and was required.

    The TLM was “never abrogated”…that doesn’t mean the indult wasn’t required for most priests to say it. The very fact that the Pope declared that an indult was required, meant that it was required for licitity during that time period. That’s just how legislation in the Church works.

  58. Henry Edwards says:

    JonM: I neither read nor contribute to threads on the third secret. However, I noticed your name under “Recent Posts” and wanted to see what you might have to say about it.

    Well, not so much about the third secret per se, thankfully, but the most perceptive summary of the current situation I’ve seen recently, from new Catholic or old.

    It’s a cliché that throughout its history the Church has seen the worst of times more than the best of times. Certainly there have always been heresies around, but usually localized in one way or another, restricted in either doctrine or locale.

    But I wonder whether not only the people but the clergy and hierarchy at all levels have ever before been so generally and pervasively affected by heresy involving such wide swatches of the faith.

  59. MichaelJ says:

    Why must I presume that His Holiness has lied if I also believe that the entire contents of the Third secret have not been revealed? As I recall from the Baltimore Catechism, “broad mental reservations” excuse an individual’s culpability for telling an untruth.

    So, for what it’s worth, I think that those who claimed to be revealing the entirety of the message at Fatima were deliberately deceiving us, but I have insufficient information to determine if this deception constitutes a lie.

  60. irishgirl says:

    Anita Moore OPL @ 6:33-what you said! My thoughts exactly!

    I believe that the Secret of Fatima was revealed in its entirety in 2000. In fact, Sister Lucia said at that time, ‘There are no more secrets’; and she, of all people, would have known if there were any more!

    And as Anita said, ‘Pope Benedict XVI is not an ‘ineffectual shrinking violet’ ‘. That’s being very disrespectful!

  61. irishgirl says:

    Clarification on my last sentence….the one I’m calling ‘disrespectful’ for the ‘ineffectual shrinking violet’ remark is not Anita [just so that you know]…it’s to Oneros.

    And that’s all I’ll say on it….

  62. JonM says:

    @Henry Edwards,

    Thank you for the very kind words.

    I did fail to cram in that already over-the-limit entry that there is, as you point out, a danger in thinking that the end must be in our times. You are correct that there is a rich history of this, beginning in the infant days of the Church.

    Personally, I try not to speculate about that sort of thing as it does quickly become unhealthy. We are in the Final Days, but by applying a more dispassionate temperament than, say, some Protestants, we also know that the End could come today or in a million years (or more.)

    We have had many dark times in the Church’s history. The following are a few that come to mind:

    Arianism seems to have been a real test of the Church’s indefectibility.

    Islam nearly swept away Europe. On multiple occassions indeed, but especially early on in its history. The heart of Christendom (Syria, Palestine, Egypt, North Africa) were conquered rapidly by Muslim armies as Europe was directly invaded up to France stopped finally at Tours.

    The Enlightment Era in which monarchs began to treat the faith as a social engine rather than a necessity for salvation was a bleak time. Gallicanism and Josephism, by my readings, were serious attacks on the Church.

    Another period of trouble came with the 19th century’s bursting of revolutions when traditional government was ripped out and replaced with councils. Invariably these revolutions directly implicate freemasons (France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal, United States, Mexico, Latin America.)

    Of course our contemporary problems are unique, but that is no reason per se to assume that ‘we’re doomed.’ And on the other hand, I don’t think it is ever a laudable approach to presume that the Lord can come as a thief in the night, but just not during our night.

    Taking the warnings of many Popes against the bubbling caldron of Modernism, ‘the synthesis of all heresies,’ the incredible breakdown of natural morality, the destructive force of new weaponry, the impending bankruptcy of national governments, and the visits from Mary our Mother, things do look pretty spooky for the short to medium term.

    Issac Newton thought he might have calculated the End as 2060. Maybe, but what we know is that each of us living now will have to face at least three of the four Last Things. Knowing this, speculation about ‘the end of the world’ becomes nearly redundant.

  63. Maltese says:

    The New Oxford Review has a couple of great pieces pertinent to this discussion, the first is a review Socci’s book, “The Fourth Secret”:

    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/briefly.jsp?did=0510-briefly

    The second is a treatise, based on an interview of Fr. Amorth, the Vatican’s #1 Exorcist, that satanic influence (even active satanists) exist all the way up to the College of Cardinals:

    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=0510-notes-smoke

    Not all, obviously, is peachy keen in the Church.

    If you were the Prince of Darkness, would you target a charlatan like Benny Hinn, or, let him falter on his own, and target the Church founded by Christ; which, with reason, is the oldest institution on earth?

    Now, this might seem odd, that the Church founded by Christ could be infiltrated with Satanists, but remember Christ told the first Pope, Peter, “Turn away from me, Satan” when Peter hesitated at Christ’s plans. Peter also denied Christ thrice. Yet, Christ made him the Rock–the first Pope.

    So, despair not! Christ’s Church, from day one, was not perfect, nor ever shall be. But, don’t think it’s anti-clerical to expose corruption therein. Dante made an art of it!

  64. Amerikaner says:

    I think there is more yet to be revealed.

    However if it is anything like Blessed Ann Marie Taigi foresaw with what would happen in Rome (revolution), then it makes sense not to reveal it.