I love the title of this entry. No, not the title of this entry… but Damian Thompson’s title on the entry where he posts Michael Voris’s latest.
Lesbian-hugging Marxist nuns have reduced US parishes to nuclear wasteland, Catholic pundit tentatively suggests
Mr. Voris should go to a workshop with some modern sisters to help get in touch what what he really thinks and stop repressing his feelings, maybe walk a labyrinth… do some enneagram stuff.
I was happy to hear the use of “Fishwrap” in there, btw.
WDTPRS POLL:
AFTER watching that video, AFTER, pick the best answer below and give your reasons (if you are among the chosen registered) in the combox, below. Some comments may wind up in a moderation queue.
Do NOT engage each other. Do NOT engage each other. Do NOT engage each other.
I want people to feel free to speak their piece without others in the combox jumping on them, liberal, conservative, whatever. Therefore, clean it clean, concise and don’t provoke me.
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I LOVE this kid! He is more “spot-on” about so many things challenging The Church these days than practically anyone else. Beautifully so, he’s not afraid to come right out and say it! If only more were listening……..
You be played at the next Women Religious Leadership Conference.
Amen, Amen!! If only he were ordained I would pray he would be the next bishop of the diocese of Fresno, Ca. Having pulled my children out of “catholic” schools in the diocese of Fresno because they were going to invite Dolores Huerta, the pro-abort, pro-gay marriage street thug of United Farm Workers fame to speak to children at Our Lady of Gudalupe School in Bakersfield, CA. The same school who ridiculed our family because we are attache dto the Extraordinay Form of Mass – Help from the Diocese of fresno – NOTHING. Regarding the “good” sisters, you need only to look to Pheonix where Bp. Olmsted is defending the faith againt Catholic Healthcare West. CHW is an off shoot of the Sisters of Mercy, today there average age is 65+ and zero vocations. The Sisters had a great foundress and a glorious history but in the last 40 years they, like others have sold their souls and endangered many many more. God bless Michael Voris, if only we had priests and bishops with his faith. Where is the Church militant? The Church militant is in the pews and on the blogs. At most altars and chanceries there are only limp wrists and weak knees. God help us.
I adore the Vortex. It is sane, healthy, and masculine.
I do not think he should tone it down. I think this has a place. Wonderful.
I voted that he was right, but should tone it down. “Tone it down”, perhaps meaning “adopt a more charitable way to phrase things”. While he’s dead on, no amount of yelling will get anyone’s act together. If this message is directed at anyone who doesn’t already agree with him, they’ll be put off by it and write him off – along with the rest of conservative, faithful Catholics.
To my recollection, John the Baptist certainly did not “tone it down” ….. We have become too soft.
A thorough and objective study will show the many shortcomings of the types of
nones (spelled that way intentionally) to which he refers. I hope the visits also include the thriving and growing orders of Nuns who obey Church teaching, wear habits, and have no desire to be either Priests or flower children or both. A comparative study between the 60’s era nones and the Nuns who have taken Jesus Christ (rather than “Mother Earth”) as their bride would be very enlightening—and supportive of the later as well.
I can’t stand Michael Vortex.
He oozes pride from every pore and is totally lacking charity. Worse, unlike the good Fr Z he will never convince anyone who doesn’t anyone who doesn’t already agree with him of anything, he just reinforces everyone who believes conservatives are a bunch of idiots.
Also, I thought the Church had the authority to declare who is a heretic but apparently that is Mr Voris’s specialty, even accusing Bishops.
I used to watch him occasionally but I have no respect for him since his hit piece on Abp. Dolan.
I voted “tone it down” but that doesn’t precisely match my view. He’s right about much of what’s wrong with the state of women religious in the US, but in my experience with modern, lefty nuns, it isn’t about lesibianism, witchcraft, or New Age crap. It’s usually just two things: they can’t be priests, and everybody’s good, nobody’s bad (and hell doesn’t really exist, anyway).
I think he is right on target. I wish my kids who have left the Church would have heard someone passionate like this before they wandered off. And no, they won’t listen now. Maybe someday, (sigh).
I would say tone it down because while he seems to be dead on, he needs to both clarify his message and add some objective evidence to back up his claim. Now I’m sure boatloads of commenters are gonna say, “How can you say that!!??!? Just look around you?!?!??!?” But think about it. For example, what criteria is he using to seperate a “good nun” from a “Lesbian-hugging Marxist nun”? Habits? the amount of Latin in their daily prayers? Age? While I’ve certainly seen the damage dissenting nuns have done just by reading the papers, my personal experience of nuns has been otherwise. The order close by to my school may have disgusting taste in liturgical decorum, but they wear habits and have never supported any heterodox ideas. And I’ve seen a nun that doesn’t wear a habit yet still appreciates the wearing of habits. As far as my experience is concerned, most nuns are well-meaning if not mis-guided, and the nuns Mr. Voris speaks of aren’t as pervasive as he claims. Therefore, to avoid hitting the holy, good nuns in the cross-fire, tone it down.
He goes boldly where most are afraid to tread, and he does it very well. And if he puts some off, well so be it. I don’t think he is really trying to win over anyone; I take his presentations more as a call to arms.
I Loved it!
The entire sickening thing is upsetting, but it needs to be said. I am happy we have him around.
I strongly (but respectfully) disagree with those who say Voris should tone it down. Here is why. He is correct to criticize bishops who deserve criticism. Those of us who love the faith and try and live it can really feel alone. This man makes us feel accompanied. He may not convince others, but he gives those of us struggling to defend the faith strength to continue to do so.
Allow me to illustrate my point with an example: the New Oxford Review. I have long read the magazine. Many many accuse it of being uncharitable etc. etc., especially when they started criticizing the legion (and they didn’t mince words… and they did it LONG before anyone else in orthodox Catholic circles did). How dare they go after people on “OUR SIDE?!” They are so “extreme” and “uncharitable.” (I remember the attacks on them well when they… long before the Vatican investigation, long before the outing of the truth, were calling for investigations of the Legion and speaking of cult like practices.) Yet, who now would say that the magazine was uncharitable in criticizing the Legion and Maciel? Who now would say the NOR was off the rails or extreme for doing so? Plenty did. Plenty did. It was ugly.
Why bring this up? What is the parallel? Michael Voris uses the same take no prisoners approach to defending the faith as NOR traditionally has. Our faith IS for big boys. Saints can (and have) had VERY intense disagreements. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being men, being forthright, and being masculine. There is nothing wrong with, when you see something very wrong in the Church, saying so.
This man is doing good work, and that work definitely has a place.
And speaking of criticizing Bishops… “Pierre Cauchon died on this day in history, 1442 AD” (December 18)
I wonder what Voris would have had to say about that if he was alive and they had the internet back then!!!
St. Joan of Arc… pray for us!
He is spot on, as usual! With that being said, he is in a position to reach a great many people and change the minds of some liberal and dissident Catholics. Therefore, while I believe he should still address the subject matter, be completely honest, and be hard when necessary, he should choose his words more carefully so he could reach those who would be receptive to his message, but would be scared away or question his credibility due to his word choices.
What about all the pain and suffering they have caused the Church! The situation can be solved in one word, “Suppression ” comes to mind.
I think of the “Sisters” that run a local “Catholic” school who no longer use the Sign of the Cross because it may offend someone. They now begin prayer services with “pray to your God or gods”. When a priest could not make it to an ecumenical prayer service, they had a woman priestess do the service.
Suppression!!!
You only have to ask kids from you local Catholic school. What I wrote about is only a tip of the iceberg. Some of what the good, solid, faithful kids tell me about their “Catholic” schools would horrify the average Catholic. (Also my personal experience of some of these “Sisters”) Michael is right on!
I agree that orders like iPadre described need to have a hammer it over their heads and be told in very clear language that they need to get their act together and return to the particular charisms which many have abandoned. If they don’t get their act together then suppression should definitely be considered. But perhaps an otherwise faithful order has a house or two who have dissented. Those houses should be disciplined, not the entire order. While suppression might be necessary in many cases, I would lament the loss of a religious order, especially if it had a venerable history. But what must be done, must be done.
Let’s see. Everyone was so pc and didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings for 40 years and look where we are. MV gives me hope that some people have the nerve to stand up for what’s right – finally.
I agree with him, but he’s so obnoxious I almost wish I didn’t.
@TKS:
Those who are saying that he should choose his words better are not asking him to be pc, but simply to choose his words better so that he can have a positive influence on as many people as possible. “Lesbian-hugging Marxist nuns” could easily be phrased “dissident nuns,” “unorthodox nuns,” “unfaithful nuns,” or “un-Catholic nuns.” The same message gets across, but less polemical language is used. People could be unreceptive to his message if he uses “Lesbian-hugging Marxist nuns” because it sounds unprofessional or might cause people to question his credibility.
I think he needs to tone down the rhetoric. I think it is a bit scornful and not really ideal. It’s also really just preaching to the choir A more intelligent and constructive approach is, imho, that of Fr Barron’s Word on Fire.
@ TotusTuus90
That’s Funny….Bet we could run with titles for a while..I Think Father Z would be busy with the edit buttons. I`ll just ad Militantly Anti Catholic Nuns
@Tc when you say {He will never convince anyone who doesn`t already agree with him} I can`t help but think you mean the Catholics sitting with the dissident nuns trying to figure out how to overturn the Male Chauvinistic Hierarchy…Your probably right there..
I agree with Voris and actually think he could have been blunter.
Let me give a few reasons why
1) The congregation co-founded by my spiritual director sheltered a teaching Sister of Notre Dame who was driven out for wanting to wear the Habbit, be faithfull to her Spouse and actually live the Religious life.
2) I disagree with the assment of the Blood Crazed Ferrit that Michael is not practising Charity; he does after ask the viewer to pray for the spiritual adultresses that are crucifying thier Spouse.
3) I cannot fathom why his excellency is defanging the apostolic visitation before it has even finnished; this does a diservice to Mother Mary Clare Millea S.J.C and her team who have spent much time and effort undertaking the visitation and to those whom might have benefited from a reform of these rouge communities (the Sisters, students taught by them, parishes ect etc).
4) Young women who long to take Jesus as there Spouse should be forewarned about which communties are crazy and ought to be avoided.
I agree with CantateDomino, but I think that is the point. He is not trying to convince anyone, he is trying to “rally the troops.” The tone helps him make his point, that there are a whole lot of other people out there who are also hurt and upset and bitter. Perhaps they should be recognized too.
If Michael Voris’ goal is to change people’s mind his approach will not be effective. I agree with the content of his message but name calling won’t get him very far. His approach lacks charity.
That said, I don’t know how, or if, it is possible to change the minds of those who support the sisters who have strayed from authentic Catholic doctrine.
What he says is true and it is perfectly natural that he (and we) should be angry at those who have hurt us and our faith, but being angry simply doesn’t get us anywhere. I’ve tried being angry– it only left me bitter and with no hope for the salvation of those gone astray.
In my opinion, the correct response is pity for those who have gone astray, and Vorris does take a step in that direction at the end by asking us to pray for the sisters who have gone astray. However, I never saw that prayer request coming because of his (justfiable) anger. In conclusion then, I think he’s right, but needs to tone it down a little and remember that the sisters are to be pityed– they have idols, we have God :)
I voted that he took just about the right tone. I would change a couple of things though – he is perfectly free to call ideas and opinions heterodox, but I don’t think he has the authority to call people heretics. Also his personal appearance is off-putting; his delivery is wooden and sounds over-rehearsed, and what’s with the Bieber-do anyway?
Lest we forget, Bp. Olmsted does have the Poor Clare Nuns of Perpetual Adoration – the “Desert Nuns” from Mother Angelica’s Monastery. I’m sure their ranks will grow tremendously after they get their monastery built and have room for more.
I understand that Mother Assumpta’s Dominicans have so many aspirants that they are thinking of building an offshoot of the Motherhouse in another part of the country. Her order has grown 2,500% since it was started a few years ago.
The Nashville Dominicans are growing, as are the Benedictines of Mary, Queen of Apostles (in Bp. Finn’s Diocese). These orders, which are growing, are faithful to the Holy Father and the Magesterium, they love Our Lord, and they wear long habits. The Poor Clares and the Benedictines also wear the traditional veil (no hair showing).
It’s just really sad that these older nuns went off track so badly. Mr. Voris calls it as he sees it and what he says is harsh, but true. These women have destroyed their orders, the faith of others, and themselves in the process. And then they are shocked, SHOCKED, that no one wants to join them in their destruction, their orders are dying, and as a result their elderly members are facing a bleak future with no means of financial support. They do need our prayers, that they will turn back to the Lord before it’s too late.
Wow, I am shocked that many are agreeing so wholeheartedly. I strongly suspect that people are basing their preception of how ‘true’ Michael Voris’ diatrabe is on the actions of a few high profile women, and not so much on the sisters they may know personally. It is discouraging to see someone who seems to be exploiting the difficulties and confusion among many institutes of women to generate division. Come on people, get a grip! These women are also sheep of the flock, no matter how misguided some are who think they ought to be the shepherds. They have been lead astray. For many years, they have been allowed to wander, and now the blame of ‘nuclear’ damage to parish life is laid at their feet? Furthermore, just because some women of a community have lost their way or gone off the rails does not mean that others of a similar mind. These women have taken vows, and one of them is usually obedience, and this may mean that many have ‘gone along’ with flakey stuff that seemed innocuous at first, until such things became inculturated…at any rate, the road back is likely gonna be hard for some, and there is no reason to ignore the fact that feelings are a part of that. What kind of ‘punishment’ does Voris think appropriate for these groups anyway? Why is he so invested in it? The specific consequences for these communities, whatever they may be, are none of his business, none of our business, either.
It is a shame that Voris is trying to stir the pot on this matter, since the visitation was actually pretty well-received and perceived as really helpful by many if not most communities. The negative reporting in the media mostly came from people not in relious life at all, who wanted to beat their drum over this issue, and it seems that Voris is responding mostly to that coverage. He should prolly just leave this one alone, since little good is going to come of his ranting; it is to no purpose. Actually, what is the purpose of these little propaganda videos anyway? Is the to make ‘the people’ rise up and voice their concerns on how things are run? To make people angry? I can’t see how that helps, and there is a real spiritual danger in such a superior rightous anger as he displays, and seems to want to encourage. His call to prayer seems pretty fake after all the name-calling. He does not seem to wish them any good, and seems quite gleeful over the problems…how can that be applauded?
Mike Voris rocks!
He’s right on. As I’ve said before, if you really want to render these type of people irrelevant, we need to match them in charity and good works. We don’t need to be into Enneagrams or Feng Shui etc. to take care of the poor and do other corporal works of mercy. The problem is that side of the Church is “taking over” charity within the Church which is why they’re allowed to last as long as they have. Don’t let them do better than you in that arena.
I’m more worried about Bp. Tobin causing scandal by suggesting that we “acknowledge the anger felt by these women”. This to my mind is a false charity directed toward those who have engaged in heresy and endangered the immortal souls of countless thousands through their influence in schools, churches and social justice-oriented groups that promote the very things Voris dares to mention by name, in the full light of truth: lesbianism, advocacy for women priests, “New Age” spirituality, and other heretical teachings.
And, ultimately that’s what counts: the immortal souls of those who have been taught falsehoods as truths in the name of “justice.”
By the way, anyone who has ever met Voris (as I have) will understand that he is actually a very humble man, driven not by pridefulness, but by a deep conviction that he must out of true charity proclaim the truth about these matters.
uh, just recalled the part about non-engagement…please disregard 1st sentence above…
Perhaps one of the apostles should have suggested that Jesus “feel their pain” before he lashed out at the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites, blind guides, blind fools, serpents and a brood of vipers, and asking them, “How are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” (Matthew 23)
Voris is spot on in following our Lord’s example.
I’ve been watching this fellow for months. I love every word he utters, God help me… But after I’m done watching him, I feel like one of those dodo rubberneckers gawking at an accident off the side of the road.
Here’s an interesting story about Mr. Voris: http://blog.tomroeser.com/2010/10/michael-voris-is-name-for-refreshing.html
I have to say that I really go back and forth with this idea of ‘just say it’ but not so harsh or just be nice. I really admire his courage and a little bit– I envy his fearlessness. When I came back to the faith after 20 years in evangelical circles, I was shocked at what I saw in His church. Then I found Father Z , Michael Vorris and many others who helped me realize what was going on. Maybe it’s like the Scripture says ,” there’s a time for everything under the sun. ” These are desperate days in the church, sadly I think it may call for a season of exhortation by bold men and women. And for a while, it won’t be pretty. I think he’s a man who loves the Lord. Since that’s the case, God will check him when he needs it.
I think it was a nice balance of calling it like he saw it AND being charitable. I probably wouldn’t have thought to say a Hail Mary if he has not suggested it!
Tone it down. I love biting sarcasm but seven minutes of it? I couldn’t make it past minute one and I agree with him. No one who disagreed with him would listen to seven minutes of THAT.
He throws out a lot of unfounded accusations . . . basically he is just name calling. Looks like he earned an STB before washing out of the seminary, so he probably holds a lot of bitterness for putting in so much time and then not having a bishop to ordain him. I’m guessing some wise bishop realized this guy would have been too much of a liability.
The “good” sisters should look to their own house for the source of oppression. As a child in the early 1960s, the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati harbored a sadistic woman as a first grade teacher by the name of Sister Mary Louis, who literally would hold children down and beat them with her fists. Some of my classmates were beaten nearly every day. More than one child in the class wet their pants during that year, possibly out of sheer terror. When we graduated to second grade, the young laywoman who taught the class relied on Sister as the “bogeyman” for students she found particularly hard to manage. This behavior, which to day would see her in jail, was presided over by the principal, Sister Mary William Pendergast.
One thing for which the fairly new Archbishop Schnurr of Cincinnati deserves credit, is for drawing a line in the sand with the order. They have been corrected on more than one occasion, and now have reason to be nervous. They will get no sympathy from me.
I take full responsibility for what I have written, and state before the Almighty to its truthfulness. Should any of the Sisters hear of this , and find it to be slanderous, they are welcome to come find me among the others whom I will summon as witnesses. Until such time, they will consider themselves on notice.
Although the style and content is not my cup of tea I do think Voris’ project was a really good idea. You can reach a massive and very diverse audience on Youtube. Definitely should be used more for evangelization.
I have read no one else’s comments, (yet) but first wanted to share this: We coincidentally just had a nun from Sisters of the Holy Cross come to our parish for an Advent retreat. Prior to her coming, I googled of course. Yep on the labyrinths and Roger That on the Earth Mother manifesto thingie and all-hail girl power in the Church.
I went anyway because… well you know the internet isn’t that reliable.
Got to the retreat.
Hmph. Maybe the internet’s accuracy is improving: No prayer. No candles. No wreath. Nuthin’.
This retreat had zero- zip -nada to do with Advent, I actually only went one and half of the three days planned, so to be fair I could have missed something. I however will share what I did experience :
We saw a slide show. Statues from around the world of Our Blessed Mother. The statues were beautiful. Fair enough.
The next slide show was pictures from a trip taken to the Holy Land.
The many many many many many ( 30 minutes) pictures of the interior of the Greek Orthodox Church we saw were lovely. I think there was a slide showing one with the Original Manger or something(?)Well. Ok.
We all got a map of aforementioned Greek Orthodox Church.
We all learned, over about a 20 minute period of time, about the map. I’m not making this up, at all, nor am I employing exaggeration.
We heard about a 20 minute discourse on St. Joseph, including that he was a widower with children prior to meeting Mary. Biblical scholars agree on this doncha know, and it doesn’t matter anyway of course, doncha know that.
It sort of offended my sensibilities; where was Church teaching? I dunno. Not there. And, um what about Advent? Why are we here again? But I went back for….
Night two! We all got copies of the Memorare.
We read it, then talked with a partner about something or other… I didn’t have my husband with me.
I also pretended that I was getting an important text, so I had no partner at all. Sorry Father I know that puts me in the pansy category, maybe worse! so I have my confession all lined out. Just in case.
Then people got up and shared at a mic set up in front.
After sharing time, there was this Nativity Scene set up on the stage; a small one-toy sized- and she instructed us that we all were going to get up and go to the Nativity Scene to do something or say something – I cant remember, or maybe I didn’t quite hear, because that was half way through the second night and I left.
It was just sad.
I don’t know if you’re supposed to disclose your vote, but I said ‘right on but should tone it down’ ONLY because when I tried to talk to a couple different friends of mine in the parish, about not just this retreat, but some other … challenges… they looked at me like an I was an ignoramus. And sort of with pity, because they are nice women.
Also I sort of accidentally eavesdropped and overheard kudos from some other female parishioners about the remodeling of our church (crucifix in back, golden starburst thing with dove over altar) as per something the sister said at this retreat about the “vision” of the Church, and I felt sort of sick. I knew they didn’t know, and they don’t even know they don’t know!! Do they?
SO I voted the way I did because my experience has been that there is a sad ignorance among Catholics (here) in general.. for most of them it’s sort of “Oh! A labyrinth? Cool idea!” I mean, I’m not sure they recognize dissension. I’m telling you, its bizarre; one lady was talking about her astrology group!!! I kid you not! Now I’m going exclamation point crazy. Every one just smiled and no one even blinked! Well I grew up in the sticks and have no manners, so I gasped. Just kidding.
Voris was spot on for me, make mine a double, and add a side car just for good measure, I loved it. I am so sick and tired of disobedience, but for many (like my parish), I don’t know if Voris would do good or harm…
Every week we say that we believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, yet sometimes our separated brethren seem to be sitting in the pew right next to us.
Thanks for posting this video Father Z.
No captions?
No comment.
Where is a woman like St. Teresa of Avila when you need her?
Gail F took the wqords right out of my mouth, I couldn’t have said it better.. Was it really seven minutes? It felt longer.
I think he made his points very effectively, and his language was appropriate given the subject matter. It is not, in my view, charitable to say less than is true in such a case as this. Real harm is done by dissident religious, and a strong and direct response shows charity for their victims, meaning good and faithful Catholics who are led astray by such militant heresy. And when people argue that definitions of heresy are for the Church, meaning not lay people, I think they go too far. All Catholics are called to guard the faith just as bishops are, and obedience does not require we assent or accept active heterodoxy simply because we are not ordained. That comes a bit too near to some form of clericalism for my comfort.
My own reaction in part is to fight the temptation to give in to condemning these “nuns”. This comes from the fact that my own extreme anger, disgust, frustration, and disordered desire for revenge is experienced on an almost weekly basis every time I attend Sunday Mass at my local parish (OF), or daily Mass at a certain parish in a neighboring diocese where I work, and also in my home diocese of Erie when visiting my parents, and especially every time I have sit through a guitar Mass, attend Mass in a church-in-the-round, attend a wacky Novus Ordo Mass, and most especially when I see the Holy Eucharist poorly treated and disrespected. I want to rage, wish I was Pope for about six months, and start removing the name “Catholic” from quite a few “religious” orders and “priests”. However, I also see this as a temptation to avoid! I cannot believe that God wants me to quit going to my local parish – where I am half-timing going to Sunday Masses – and go only to Extraordinary Form masses which He is blessed us with in this particular diocese. And so my point is that I am loathe to condemn a whole group of religious to the seventh level of hell, or anyone for that matter, no matter how tempting. I still have a tremendous amount of anger and hurt at what has been denied my generation and beyond by the throwing out of traditions and in many cases Tradition, and virtue, and obedience, and culture, by many bishops, priests, religious, and lay people even before I was born (1971). Priests and bishops have an appointment from above, and are necessarily to be obeyed by the faithful. I can’t vote them out, nor can I force them to say Mass as I want, or preach about what I want, or even hire musicians and architects I want, nor should I be able to do this. It makes it therefore a cross to bear: what cannot be cured must be endured. Yet prayer to God and trust in the Holy Spirit is needed, and I’m starting to embrace this more and more! As well as true compassion on my part, and not bitterness. And so I wonder at the need for Mr. Voris to have recourse to anger? Is this in accord with the true mind of Christ and His great and endless mercy? And yet at the same time, I too am really angry at Archbishop Tobin too! I am so fed up with these people always winning, always getting their way, always hurting the Church, betray It and God and us all, and at the same time I take so much hope and consolation from God by the flourishing of tradition, habit-wearing orders of both men and women, The motu proprio, the brick by brick events, by Fr. Z and other priests who actually say the EF, and by perhaps growing in my own faith and maturity, and also in finally having practicing Catholic friends given me by God. I was thinking of Mr. Voris’ previous statement of “Protestant Catholicism” just today and think this meant to be an analogy about what has happened in the last century to what happened in the Protestant revolt of the 16th century, especially about the suppression of the Mass in certain Protestant areas back then, and how the same applies in many parishes by default today – only perhaps the word Protestant is too confusing to apply to those in the 20th century and now since perhaps few real protestants practice the new age, etc., and are instead faithful Christians. I think the heterodox orders (and bishops and priests) lasting legacy is twofold: that those souls which they have mislead in doctrine by willful disbelief and by laxity and by the warping of the Mass will have weak or no faith and pass on no faith to anyone; and that the orders which have been and will be destroyed will not be there and have no continuing legacy, and the void left and felt in the Church will be felt by lay people for generations to come. Let me give it to God all over again! And please pray for me Fr. Z.
I’ve always enjoyed Voris’ commentary. His style doesn’t lend itself to wide appeal, but on the other hand, anyone who expresses the same concerns he does is likely to endure some censure, regardless of how they deliver the message: After his “Weapons of MASS Destruction” video, Catholic Answers forums threatened to block permanently anyone who attempted to start a thread on him. The following day, CatholicCulture.org downgraded him from “safe” to “caution”. All I see is pretty solid orthodoxy, albeit very opinionated orthodoxy.
Some people have blogs. Voris decided to grab a camera and put a new spin on the old “station manager opinion” routine (he worked in broadcasting for 20 years), and it seems to have turned out pretty well, apart from the overused pull-quotes flashing beside his head most of the time. His work exposing the CCHD last year was impressive, and valuable (he was the real “point man” on that project, as many other commentators were referencing him hours or days after he released his clips).
I didn’t see an option that really fit my position, so I went with the “right, but should tone it down” one because it’s closest. My actual opinion is that he’s partially right, in that the religious orders in question need to be brought back into theological communion with the Church or else fade away to make room for those who will comply with Rome, but goes completely off the rails in his extremism and has a tone that is extremely off-putting and alienates anybody who might potentially be swayed by his rhetoric. He seems to have a very high regard for himself and the things that he’s saying, which is nice to an extent but he takes it way too far. I don’t like arrogance and superiority from conservatives any more than I like it from liberals.
I voted “That was just about the right tone. I wouldn’t change a thing” based on my wife’s experience of what was done to the sisters at Webster College in about 1970, as well as what was done to the College itself in the aftermath. Suppression sounds very much like the correct approach. Some have already felt the pain (my wife, for one), why should anyone else be subjected to the pain of these disobedient nuns?
Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer
Why can’t our bishops and pastors EVER be this blunt about ANYTHING? If they were, you’d see the faith ELECTRIFIED!
Yes, he is right on target, but, unfortunately, I don’t think the sisters in question nor Archbishop Tobin is going to pay any attention to this guy anymore than they are going to pay attention to any of the rest of us who have been saying the same things day in and day out for years now.
I just wonder what Mother Clare Millea is thinking about this latest development in the Apostolic Visitation? All her work for naught.
I give MV a thumbs up. I think he’s great…probably because I love truth. The less sugar coated it is, the better I like it. This cuts down on chances for confusion or misunderstanding.
I give MV a thumbs up. I think he’s great…probably because I love truth. The less sugar coated it is, the better I like it. This cuts down on chances for confusion or misunderstanding.
I voted just about right because this sort of thing is what Voris does well. There are times when I think he is mistaken or seeing something in too simplified a way, and I get quite annoyed at him. But in this case I really think he is spot on. “You are being hurtful” is a standard tactic for….I don’t know what term to use…liberals?…the left? It was used against me in a university nursing program in a class meant to discuss controversial issues affecting nurses, when I dared to say, for instance, that it was wrong deliberately to “ease out” ie kill, patients we perceive to be suffering. It is always used in the discussion of same sex attraction issues. It is used if one objects to some hoky cobbled together “meaningful” ceremony like burning slips of paper with our sins written on them. ” Sister X, or Mrs. Y the DRE worked hard to do something meaningful for the children, and you are being negative and hurtful. ” I fear Archbishop Tobin hasn’t run into enough of this tactic and that he is a gentleman who is upset when women say “You have hurt our feelings.” My experience is that these sisters have never cared about the people whose pieties or devotional feelings they swept aside, either within or without their orders. I fear they have not cared about the state of their own souls, some of them. I did try to say a Hail Mary for them as Voris asked, although I had to turn off the fundraising at the end to do it.
I really doubt Voris will convince a single person who doesn’t already agree with him. I think his whole point is to give a voice to the voiceless in the church who had to take so much for so long. He gives one a sense of satisfaction that finally someone dares to say THAT.
Perhaps he is an arrogant person; I don’t know him. I thought Randall Terry was an arrogant and unpleasant person, but I also thought he was genuinely upset about abortion, and back in the 1980’s he was running fairly effective protests one of which I took part in. Voris is brash. There is a place for brash.
Susan Peterson
“Femi-nazis” really? This guy needs to tone it down several notches. I voted in the “Right or wrong, this has no place in civil discourse” category. If he wants to kindly say that the Archbishop should not jump to conclusions, and that the female religious orders are borderline heretical, he can say that, but in a nice way.
Charity is the greatest of all virtues you know.
I voted “no place in civil discourse for this” even though I think he is mostly right. I don’t think his tone is effective and it is uncharitable and unnecessary for his argument to call the nuns femi-Nazis, etc. I have been called a Nazi myself, but it was for being too conservative. Name calling and saying that they are heretics will just perpetuate the discord. (NB: I was born well after Vatican II so I didn’t experience the immediate aftermath. If I had, then perhaps I might see things differently. I’m thankful that I didn’t have to go through those dark times when many nuns were subverting the Church)
Comments that call for “civility” and “measured responses” need to be reminded that we are in the midst of a nearly sixty year-long war within the Church that shows no sign of ending any time soon; civility and measured responses have got us to where we are today. Paul VI hamletted his way to nearly destroying the Church through civility and measured responses while all Hell broke loose around him. Had he been the bold face and voice of authority, and his brother bishops with him, rather than the cowering bureaucrat that he was, we might have had that long-promised fairy tale of a New Springtime of rainbows and sugarplums in place of the long nuclear winter that has devasted so many souls, not to mention devastating the lives of many faithful persons (clergy, religious, seminarians, lay) who have anonymously suffered and had careers completely and utterly destroyed by not bucking up to the liberal line (I speak here from painful experience). I once gave liberals and dissenters the benefit of the doubt, granting that their intentions were good. They are not, they have never been, and they shall never be.
I think he’s right, and his tone is just right. Jesus Himself had plenty of choice names for His enemies. These are serious times, and serious times call for blunt discourse. Truth itself is offensive, and he’s speaking the truth.
Anybody ever read Radio Replies — questions and answers from Fr. Rumble and Fr. Carty’s apologetics radio shows from the ’30s and ’40s (published in 3 volumes by TAN Books)? You want to talk about blunt, forthright and to the point — that’s it right there. Would that all of our bishops today were as vigorous! Many of the questions those priests got were downright insulting, and they gave back better than they got (though of course they were always very classy). Voris’ style is not as polished as theirs was, but I don’t think he is any more offensive than they were.
Miss Anita Moore, O.P.
I have to agree with those who have basically said “I agree with him, but find him too obnoxious to listen to.” The whole rant comes off more as schtick and sarcasm than sincerity. And slangy phrases like “femi-nazi” are just playground name-calling and offer nothing constructive whatsoever.
I agree with him 100%. As far as him not winning anyone to his point of view, I think any liberal who has seen Michael Voris a time or two would realize he is not going to hold their hand and sing Kumbaya. So they wouldn’t watch him nor expect him to be sympathetic to their “causes”. I think Voris does what so many won’t do, and that is, speak up and express what he thinks, and doesn’t care whose toes he steps on. When a nun stands up in a “Bible study” class and expresses her belief that confession is not necessary, or talks a priest into substituting the “Our Father” with “Our Mother” at an upcoming Sunday Mass, then yes, I don’t think he could have been anymore genteel.
I feel his pain…but it’s just a bit too broad brush and angry for me.
I voted for good content, but to tone down the language
Being charitable, or even more calm himself, would lend IMO not only to more viewership, but also, as Father has included in the poll option, a more receptive audience. Being charitable does not mean having to water down his points or arguments, but calling the “hurt” religious women “femi-Nazis” reminds me too much of videos I have seen featureing a guy wearing a toilet seat around his neck, invoking a variation of Godwin’s Law that if you invoke Hitler or Nazis (except in arguments relating to genocide, totalitarianism, etc.) you automatically lose the argument. Charitable means even being less prone to name calling.
I understand his passion, and therefore his strong, but still Catholic, language but even Fr Robert Barron (agree with him or not) from Word on Fire can tackle a divisive topic whilst aproaching it very logically and calmly. Maybe he is too academic for the average viewer? Ditto for Fr Z.
To reach a wider audience, yes, the audience of the lost womens religious members and their supporters. The problem I see is when he makes sweeping generalizations (for effect). Grouping them all into one. Yes, there are lesbians, Nazis (the eugenics crowd), marxists, and such. And they all deserver condemnation. But grouping them as he did begs the argument “But I’m not a lesbian”. etc…. In the end, it expresses some distracting falsehoods by doing such, directing attention away from the serious problems he’s addressing.
In the end, he’s “preaching to the converted” – I wonder if he’s just stroking our egos (by speaking truths that are not often said).
Conversely, on the stylistic front, he does repeat himself, so perhaps that fits to the “needs to be more blunt” argument.
Being personally involved (I attend a University run by an order of nuns…) I was very disappointed that Rome is not taking punitive measures. Now I have to continue being silent there, fearing that my opinion, that of the Church, will render punitive measures taken on me.
If the lucid thought and unfailing courtesy of our Benedict XVI cannot move the dissident
sisters and their fellow-travelers, then Mr. Voris never stands a chance with them no matter
what his delivery is like.
It seems to me his videos are not filmed with the intention of helping those congregations
understand the trainwrecks they have made of themselves and the damage they’ve
done to the Church. (Just as well, for that’s probably a fool’s errand. Most of the dissident
sisters are perfectly aware of what they’ve done and couldn’t be more smug about it anyway.)
Rather, Mr. Voris is on youtube because he wants us to know “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not
gonna take it anymore!” To which I say: Preach it, Mr. Voris! Testify!
That said, I voted for the second option, only because I think that the truth he’s telling will
be discounted if Mr. Voris makes too many terrorist analogies or uses phrases like “femi-nazi”.
Those are gaffes that enable his opponents to ignore the valid points he raises as they
dismiss his work. “Oh, him? Ignore that guy–he calls nuns nazis!” Don’t give those folks
ammo, Mr. Voris, and keep on keepin’ on.
Michael is a very nice gentleman who took the time to look after me, during my nine day visit to Detroit last year. (I live in Australia!)
I visited the offices of catholictv. com, and after this Mike generously invited me to his home, with a few of the volunteers he employs there, where we had a really nice evening talking about many of the issues pertaining to the Catholic Church, at this time, over pizza and wine. (He has a nice swimming pool in the backyard, and I regretted not taking my togs on that humid night!)
However, Michael does need to tone down the intensity of his message, if he wants more people to appreciate the terrible deficiencies which have pervaded religious life in the USA, in the last couple of decades.
We can all take refuge under the banner, “We’re as mad as hell, and we ain’t gonna take it anymore”. But somebody without religious faith, could subscribe to such an outlook as well regarding any issue that irks them.
As followers of Jesus Christ, we are meant to be charitable and forgiving towards those who hurt us, even when we might be in the right. Our Lord told us to forgive our brother not 7 times, but 70 times 7 times. I am somebody in this group too, as all through my Catholic schooling here in Australia I had modernist religious teach me. Believe me, I would have abandoned my faith had I taken in their nonsense. But I pray for them now, realizing that they also are victims of the terrible malaise that has afflicted our beloved Church, over the last couple of decades. They went to courses and in service trainings where they were told to adopt such attitudes, and many of them believed that these modern outlooks were mandated by the vows they took. (This was said to me in an interview I did with Mother Vincent Marie Finnigan OCD, a former President of the Council for Major Superiors of Women Religious).
For what it is worth, I enjoyed Mike’s rant in this video, it is all too true. I would have said in response to Archbishop Tobin’s remarks, “Well being forced to look at oneself in the mirror, is never a pleasant exercise for anybody. Self-realization often involves suffering and humiliation. But that is not a bad thing, because through this we now have the chance to take a different path”.
However our way of pointing out faults must be done in a gentle and kind manner. As St Francis de Sales said,
“It is easier to win more souls with a spoonful of honey, than a barrel full of vinegar”.
That doesn’t mean however I won’t enjoy listening to Mike from time to time!
I would have liked to see more appeal to reason and presentation of supporting evidence. I came away from listening to his speech with no sense of whether his accusations against the nuns were true, just that they were colourful. There was little here to convince a person who did not already accept Voris’s position.
I voted for “tone it down” but that does not exactly represent my view. It was not so much the tone as the lack of evidence that bothered me.
I have ‘felt the pain’ that the modernist ‘religious sisters’ have inflicted. Enneagram and various ‘peace and justice’ issues only the beginning. Tai Chi taught across the hall at the same time as daily Mass by a ‘sister’ who you would never see at a daily Mass. My children have grown up without ever seeing a live religious sister in a habit.
We have no religious sisters in town here, except for one retired one who I think I have seen; she dresses quite strangely. She has no role in any parish. My former town had some but you would never ever be able to pick them out in a crowd, or even a group. Sad beyond words when so many people are hungry for God and someone to speak to them of God. At the hospital where I used to be, a ‘sister’ taught reiki. But the sisters were never known to visit patients otherwise. They could have been ministering to the spiritual needs of the sick but they were administrative. So much opportunity lost. Rare to find a religious sister in a Catholic school now too. One of the devil’s big coups.
I’m sorry the differences in your church have hit a point where, it seems, anger is best method of communication. This blog is rife with examples from both sides of the debate that are emotional and unequivocal. I hope you and your opponents can find a way forward that is not schism. I do wonder what possible avenues for dialogue exist; the lines seem drawn very far apart.
Femi-Nazis. He really is good at making a point.
I voted to rachet down the negative because he leaves no room for the many nuns who love our Lord and His Church but did kinda ‘modernize’
Yeap – and high time, too! Modernising has its good points – wasn’t the Tridentine ‘modern’ at one point? – but we need to keep to the timeless old theology. The ‘bells and whistles’ may change; the Rock of Ages is eternal. Praise the Lord!
I received the complete dissident’s formation in the faith in my diocese growing up. It is not as if we were told, throughout, well, we are taking these ideas from Marxism, liberation theology, Protestant practice concerning the Eucharist. There was a whiff of clerical condescension, that we were the stupid people and those in charge had read up and were here to kick us into the brave new world, without icon, statue or candles or kneelers, home baked communion bread, St. Louis Jesuit tunes, catechism that taught us that communion was merely a symbol. We were not to be superstitious any longer and worship statues…(as if we ever did). But no one said, here is the source of these ideas…so what you have now is, not only that, but, more and more, constantly, such that ecumenism means, that pastoral ministers, retreat directors, some nuns, some lay, are authorized to pick and choose from the offerings of any and all faith traditions, the more to make us feel good, including, Episcopalian practices, shakras, reiki, yoga, zen, ecology and earth as our mother, the feminine God, dream work, eneagram, labyrinth. Again, all without explanation it is just shoved at people and people are made to feel so hip and with it, again, not shamed as in the days when we were told to stop worshipping statues. No one believes in the real presence and it is never brought up. There is a noticeable absence of any recognition of even the most basic teachings of the Popes. Since we have never been given the courtesy of the theological framework and Church authority for so much junk, my point here is that this video, exclamation points and all, will serve to wake up those who have been lulled into docile acceptance by our superiors. In places where this is all happening, one cannot say that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, or the result of an active participatory faith. It is a dictatorship. Where my parish was overhauled in my youth, the pastor in charge was found to have molested, shipped out to a retreat center, and then came back to molest again. At which time he begged to leave the priesthood. His victims received settlements but the culprit slinked away. In addition to the physical victims, there are untold spiritual victims whose faith has been destroyed by the practices he forced through and which persist today because all were humiliated into feeling that if they challenged it they were being throwbacks to a bygone era. They had no trouble painting us as backward, ignorant peasants, so, I really do not care to defend them now from Vorhis’ characterizations.
The way things are now is all many have ever known. But they certainly might be challenged when they hear the terms Vorhis throws out in this video, to look into it, to find out the truth. And they will find that he is right, while churches, schools are closed, weird offerings prevail, grown children left the faith, no vocations. Would people have assented if they had been shown, this or that liberation theology at that time as the basis for what was done? Maybe they would have. But had they known the pastor was grossly disordered in his integrity and sexuality and harming minors, would they have gone along with his sweeping and costly designs? Too costly…
“Oh Lord, to whom shall we go? You alone have the words of life.”
I’m deeply sympathetic with Voris in many ways, but that was self-indulgent rather than edifying. Can we imagine the Pope –Joseph Ratzinger– speaking to or of anyone in this fashion? Is it likely to call anyone home? Do you feel more Christian charity and spiritual energy in your soul after watching? We can be blunt about error without being rude & cynical, and when we speak in the name of Christ & his church we have an obligation to do so.
Furthermore, he has completely mistaken the purpose of this or any Visitation. It’s to call people home, not call them out, even if the one requires the other. The visitation is ordered towards the good of the sisters and their communities, not towards our personal catharsis. I would very much like to see the full context of what Bishop Tobin said….I suspect in context he would turn out to be right, especially since NCReporter is not happy about what he said. http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/taking-steps-calm-down-sisters .
Furthermore, who the heck is he to be glad orders are dying? Should he not rather be hoping for their genuine reform? Is he not on the side of faithful sisters within them who are trying to live their charism and struggling from within for reform? This little video offers no facts, no encouragement, no support for the Church. We learn nothing from it, we just indulge ourselves. Feels good for 30 seconds, leaves a bad taste in the soul afterwards.
Thank God for Michael Voris… he is saying what most priest are too afraid to say for fear of being reprimanded. We desparately need his voice today! The lay people have to help our priest get the word out since we have less to fear about any “heat” coming from the Chancery.
While I would not talk like this because I am just a young religious who might get marked as a reactionary a wee bit too early in my formation.
However a healthy bit of passion from someone called to be passionate about Our Lord’s Church, cannot go wrong.
Sometimes all of us who might be a little soft need some good “Fighting” talk to keep us going.
Br. Paul
I visited a Benedictine women’s monastery and the person who invited me, a member of the community, took me to the infirmary. I am a priest, and belong to the same ethnic community of immigrants that founded the monastery originally. I was in clerics, and the old nuns, in habits, and in wheelchairs, started kissing my hand and asking for a blessing. Afterwards my friend told me that they had suffered much the past 30 or so years with the changes in the monastery. My friend, who was not in a habit and had not worn one for a long time, said “some of us try our best to keep things sane. If I wore a habit I’d be entirely discredited by the leadership.”
It’s a judgement call sometimes. Do I temper the wind to the shorn lamb, or cry “full steam ahead!” and sail into the battle? MV says what needs to be said, but I wonder how many in authority stop listening and start posting agenda items like “uncharitable Catholic bloggers”.
I am a product of Catholic education. The sisters that taught me when I was young were orthodox, joyous, and an inspiration. No wonder they attracted vocations in those days.
But then, came the “reform” and almost overnight they became un-orthodox, nasty, and off-putting. Most younger nuns fled the scene and they attracted virtually no new vocations.
This once great teaching order is now on life-support. I doubt it will survive beyond another 10-20 years unless they seriously address their misguided ways of the past 50 years.
This young man is only stating the obvious. Since a lot of these old babes like to “tell it like it is, and “here I stand” to the Catholic heirarchy (often in nasty and derisive tones) I think they are fair game for videos such as this. If they can’t take what they dish out, then that’s their problem and the Church is better off without them.
I think that Michael Voris is blunt, and can be offensive in his approach. Kind of like the prophets of the Old Testament. He speaks the truth, and that is uncomfortable for many. Once in a while, he says something that I think is not quite correct, but generally, his words are right on target, and voices like his are needed in the Church. I am struck by how the mainstream Catholic media (even the orthodox media) ignores him.
As for the “pain” of women religious undergoing investigation, what a ridiculously stupid thing to say. Voris is right, these women have been acting as terrorists within the Church for years – they ought to be in pain.
I can’t stand it when Voris beats around the bush like he did in this video. A little bluntness would be appropriate for such an important issue.
Fr. Z,
You said, “This should get things going?” What things?
In seminary we had a real female dog of a nun who was out to get any seminarian not adopting her Liberal/Cultural Marxist agenda. So I voted for “dead on target”. (Of course, these people are not “liberals”. Real liberals believed in fair play, discussion, debate, listening to both sides, etc.)
Actually, he isn’t. Analogy is a tricky kind of argument in the best of circumstance. But to compare these heretics with Osama? If I had a relative killed in the Towers, I’m not sure that I would find the analogy correct.
Jack,
Interesting point of view. But in the spirit of your comment, what about the analogy between bodily murder and soul murder? If bodily murder is likened in some way to soul murder, how much would you revise your comment? Or not? I’m curious.
He was right in some ways, but I had a real problem with the tone of the piece. It’s not that there’s not a lot of mock-worthy stuff out there for the mocking, or that I have any problem with mockery. It’s definitely not that I think the sisters’ hurt feelings should be paramount.
But, his attitude was really repelling, for a couple reasons:
Firstly, it sounded more like he was using “lesbian” as a term of abuse, rather than as a description of something going very wrong in some religious communities. “Ewwwww, you must like chicks instead of guys” is something that young women hear as an insult if they aren’t interested in sex right now this instant with anyone with one X and one Y chromosome, or if they’re more interested in stereotypically masculine things, or if they don’t dress according to current fashions, after all, and hearing it as an insult for religious sisters actually hurt to hear. Even someone who didn’t immediately stop the video might assume that there’s no actual evidence of any female homosexuality, much less evidence of widespread misconduct like that, and Mr. Voris was just being offensive for the sake of getting attention.
Secondly, mixing “they have ceremonies to the Earth Mother” with “and they do Tai Chi” might incline someone who doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with Asian martial arts to think that Earth-worshipping prayers aren’t all that bad either, and that’s a really bad impression to give.
Thirdly, I got the distinct impression, and I am very much hoping this is not the case, that if Mr. Voris first heard a report of very bad things happening in a religious community, and then heard a report that those rumors were false, he would be disappointed, not relieved; it left a sour feeling in my stomach, his request for prayers at the end aside.
Cheyan,
You gentlemen may not know the “sisters” some of us know. None of what Michael Voris said is hearsay, nor is it fiction. Many religious orders of women need to be shut down for good. They scandalize and mislead the faithful more than they do anything else in many cases. They are a drag on what the church should be trying to accomplish, which is set out in Scripture.
I said he should have been blunter. To clarify, he should have spent less time on peripheral matters like socialism and environmentalism and more on the hatred of the natural law that inscribed on every human heart regarding human dignify and the sanctity of life and marriage. Abortion in ints many varieties and buggery are killing civilization.
As a young male traditionalist, I think that this video does no good for the choir to whom Mr. Voris is preaching.
I like Voris, but I don’t like the way he twirls a pencil at the beginning of each video. Voted “I wouldn’t change a thing” (I’d make an exception for that pencil). Also, hands stuck in pockets in some videos (that’s regarded as rude in some cultures).
Voris is right on. I was born after V2. As a child, in the 1970s, I never knew what I was missing. In high school in the 1980s, I started to get an inkling that my generation was being deprived of our rightful religious heritage. That made me very angry, and still does. Voris expresses eloquently what I would like to say.
I would say only that he dilutes his message by the length of it — if it were shorter, it’d be more direct/blunt.
He raises the interesting relevant point only once – heresy. How much heresy does there have to be before a bishop takes action? As Mr. Voris says, pray for them. ALL of them.
+JM
A little blunt? Sure.
Uncharitable? Eh, I don’t know. Obviously he’s not attempting to reach a wider audience. I agree with an earlier poster… I think that the sweeping generalizations are the most off-putting. There are just so many ‘types’ of these crazy nuns. Some are wanna-be women priests. Some are lesbian tree-huggers. Some are labrynth-walking zen masters. All are disobedient to their bishops and the Church.
I’m being finicky. Blame it on the philosophy degree. But each of those should’ve been separate hits. Not all put together into one. And I don’t mean a bunch of different videos. Just differentiating within the one.
~TB
I like Michael Voris! His words were spot on!
Sometimes you just have to come right out and say what’s on your mind!
If I were ever to meet him in person, I’d shake his hand and say, ‘Way to go, Michael!’
I voted for tone it down, but I needed more nuance. ;)
It is my opinion that Mr. Voris tends to do
railing accusationsdetractionharsh commentary upon the bishops.But he unfortunately tends to base commentary on the most negative understanding from sources that normally he would not trust to give a Catholic answer on anything, but somehow he now trusts them to not distort or caricature what a Bishop said, did, intends, or approves.
And thus he scandalizes the flock.
A meeting about ‘harm done’ opens a door for communication about Harm Done.
‘No Punishment’ does not mean no path to repentance.
It is harmful to the flock to attack the under-shepherd rather than to visibly support him in the most desirable path. It is NOT being faithful to the Chief Shepherd to encourage the flock to hold in low esteem the office of bishop (and those in that office).
God Bless