GERMANY: Creepy weird twisted “gender bender” news

Remember the “biological” male or female thing?  Some twisted people are trying to eliminate the distinction of sex, not just of “gender”.  (E.g., HERE and HERE.)

This is advancing fairly rapidly now that we have hit critical mass of people who don’t really know anything anymore and who can’t reason and who have never really been told “no” by anyone.

Take a look at this piece in Der Spiegel:

M, F or Blank: ‘Third Gender’ Official in Germany from November

By Friederike Heine

Germany is set to become the first country in Europe to introduce a third, “indeterminate” gender designation on birth certificates. The European Union, which is attempting to coordinate anti-discrimination efforts across member states, is lagging behind on the issue.

The option of selecting “blank”, in addition to the standard choices of “male” or female” on birth certificates will become available in Germany from November 1. The legislative change allows parents to opt out of determining their baby’s gender, thereby allowing those born with characteristics of both sexes to choose whether to become male or female in later life. Under the new law, individuals can also opt to remain outside the gender binary altogether. [“the gender binary”… my God is that creepy language.]

Germany is the first country in Europe to introduce this option — Munich-based newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung is referring to the change as a “legal revolution”. It remains unclear, however, how the change will affect gender assignment in other personal documents, such as passports, which still require people to choose between two categories — “F” for female and “M” for male. German family law publication FamRZ has called for the introduction of a third category, designated by the letter “X”.

[…]

This is really creepy.  Creepy and evil.

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65 Responses to GERMANY: Creepy weird twisted “gender bender” news

  1. Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    The problem, to borrow a thought from a modern author whose name I forget, of writing about a dystopic FUTURE is that one has to try to get ahead of the current dystopia!

  2. ClavesCoelorum says:

    I am ashamed of my country to pioneer this. If anything, I’d expect the UK to start off with it, but not Germany.

  3. C N says:

    I watched a Nova movie called Sex: Unknown in a biology class I took. If there was anything to learn from it, it is that gender ambiguity and reassignment in children does not work… as if a scientist had to convince me…

    There was a very interesting study the movie talked about though. A neurologist (or maybe he was a biologist) didn’t buy the nurture-over-nature theory so he committed himself to a long and tedious study taking cross sections of human brains looking for any indication of sex differences. He found it too. It is very subtle but it is there. Arbitrarily assigning gender based on the whim of a couple progressive parents is so incredibly damaging to the child. In the aforementioned movie, they discuss a gender reassignment case that was done on a baby boy. He eventually was surgically changed back to a man once he was able but committed suicide anyway. (here is a basic Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)

    And as far as the statement “those born with characteristics of both sexes” is concerned, I simply shake my head in shame at our society. If this is not specifically referring to hermaphrodites, then how hard is it to do an x-ray or ultrasound on the baby to determine precise anatomy? Although this is an issue of furthering the anti-gender/gay rights agenda, and not an actual medical issue, that is being addressed with the change on the birth certs.

  4. Phil_NL says:

    In a way, it’s quite logical that the Germans start with this.

    Sadly, it does indeed happen from time to time that a newborn baby has in fact physical characteristics of both sexes. It’s a rare condition, but it can happen. As far as I understand, the customary procedure was always to operatively correct the situation ASAP; the quote that remains with me from an article on this topic I read many years ago was “These children are always an emergency”. Of course, the doctors do have to choose either way in that case, presumably having the medical consequences foremost on their minds.

    However, if they get it ‘wrong’, the consequences are indeed awful, and probably just as bad as not remedying the situation at all (which sounds like hell on earth for a young kid too). But in a country where ‘discrimination’ is probably the worst sin imaginable in polite society – and I’m speculating from here, but it makes sense – one would not easily recognize that not doing is in fact condemning the child to all kinds of misery. ‘Our kids won’t do that, selbstverstandlich’. And then it isn’t much of a stretch to think that delaying any surgery is in fact best, and then the German tendency to get the administration in order pops up: then we need a new category birth certificate.

    Needless to say, there is undoubtedly a vocal ‘gender bender lobby’ that will use this medical problem for their own ends, completely separate from those unhappy babies and having everything to do with their own distorted views of the adult human body; and I wouldn’t want to bet against that aspect being the prime mover behind this legislation rather than the recognition that such birth deformities exist.

  5. mimicaterina says:

    If this weirdness takes off, how will the Church handle it for the sacraments? Say later on in life a person whose birth certificate shows ‘indeterminate’ for sex has a conversion and wants to be a practising Catholic, will he/she be able to marry in the Church? What about Holy Orders?

    What a nightmare for these poor kids. May God have mercy on us!

  6. StWinefride says:

    ClavesCoelorum, my eldest daughter, who is in an International school with some Germans in her class, and who was reading this post and the comments with me, upon seeing yours said :

    « Typical German ! « L » is always saying in class « Germany is ze dominant power, England is rubbish ! »

    All in good humour of course !! Tschüß !

  7. JViktor says:

    What a horror story! I am ashamed of living on the same continent.

  8. Supertradmum says:

    This is not new. This was the goal of the communists to take away roles of women and men and make all genders the same. Why? This thinking does several things. One, undermines the Catholic Church, which is THE enemy of all States in Europe. As Catholic teaching has been clear about gender as being part of God’s intended creation, this opposes Genesis. Two, this causes an entire set of laws to be produced which protect all types of sexual deviancy. If gender does not exist, neither do the terms homo-sexual or hetero-sexual. Three, again the family is undermined, and the Catholic teaching that the family is the center and basis of society is dealt a death blow.

    Gramsci has won, mark three.

  9. wmeyer says:

    Sex. Sex, sex, sex. There is no Homogender, heterogender. Gender is a language feature; sex is the proper term for the male/female differentiation. Can we not at least here, eschew the language perversion the media and polemicists have used to frame this whole topic?

    And ultimately, the real issue these people froth about is a feeling someone may have that he or she was “wrongly” born to the sex they possess. And this they then conflate to the SSA discussion, to gain sway.

    Logic and reason are all but dead in this “culture”. When you declare that right and wrong are abstracts, and that words mean whatever you wish, and that spelling is of no consequence, then rational communication becomes impossible. Much less logic and reason.

  10. JPManning says:

    I find it really funny to see how the different strands of liberal progressivism conflict with each other. How is the EU going to force 40% of company directors to be women when people can opt out of the ‘gender binary’?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20322317

  11. frjim4321 says:

    About a month ago when I was signing up my Mom for Facebook and a Gmail account I found it curious that under “Sex” there were three choices in the pull-down menu: Male, Female, or Other.

    Sex differentiation is indeed a complex and fascinating process. Thank goodness 99.9 percent of the time it goes well. There are indeed hiccups here and there. A little child here was born with genital characteristics of both sexes. At a given point the parents had to make a difficult decision as to which way to go, because a surgery was needed by a certain age.

    Differentiation is a very complex matter. When it goes badly (admittedly rarely) it creates a great deal of strife and heartbreak. I do think we owe some deference to those who are expert in this regard.

  12. Imrahil says:

    I do believe (dear @C N) that “those born with characteristics of both sexes” is specifically referring to hermaphrodites. There was a lot of complaint about hermaphrodites who had been asigned a sex arbitrarily; how much of it was sentimentalist propaganda I do not know. You have to remember that Germany is a country of paragraphs; if paragraphs say that a person is either male or female and must be recorded as one of either in the passport, then the German Beamte will register him as male or female under any cost whatsoever. By national character (perhaps except in Bavaria), we do not have the resort to good-natured epikeia even if the exceptions, hermaphrodites, are so very rare. Hence if we want to do help the (real or not, but at any rate perceived) problems of the hermaphrodites, it will have the appearance of embracing anti-natural ideologies of the worst kind… and will quite probably indeed be used in such a way in the future.

    But be that as it may, the ghastly barrier has already been stepped over a long time ago, namely when the law was passed that those who underwent sex reassignment therapy could change the sex in their passport.

    On the other hand as to the general topic,
    at the University of I guess it was Leipzig, a male professor must officially be addressed as “Mr Professoress”.

  13. scholastica says:

    “passports, which still require people to choose between two categories — “F” for female and “M” for male”
    Last week I renewed my children’s US passports and there is a new option for parents identification:
    Mother/Father/Parent_______________________
    Mother/Father/Parent_______________________
    Allowing for two mothers, two fathers, two non-gender parents, or any combination of the above.

  14. Supertradmum says:

    At this point, it will be interesting to see who wins in the battle for Europe, the atheistic Marxists or the Muslims. I put my money on the Muslims, as there are way more of them and they have guns. Most atheists are on the no-gun side of the gun debate.

    So, when these nutsy rules come out of Germany, or, indeed the Hague, it is merely a matter of time before a larger group steps in and takes over.

    Sadly, Catholics have allowed themselves to be emasculated both in theology and in politics, and therefore are going to be caught either in an atheistic, anti-Catholic State of Europe, or in Eurabia, a Muslim State.

    Most people just do not get it that Western Civilization is dead, over, defunct, and those who love socialism more than the Church allowed this to happen. When the Catholic Faith is no longer the basis for European government and culture, Europe dies. Hilaire Belloc knew this and when I used him for teaching both in the classroom and home schooling, I made sure my students knew that Europe was the Faith and the Faith was Europe.

    All the first missionaries came out of Europe to evangelize the world. And, two Nigerians have told me that the EU will no longer allow missionaries from Africa to come to Ireland or England-even members of the same order cannot go to and fro. They now get a visa for two weeks or a month. That is it. The same is true for nuns, monks, priests. The movement of peoples is being severely circumscribed to aid the agenda of global, anti-Catholic government. This is not conspiracy theory, this is happening now, now, now.

    Dioceses can no longer accept men for the seminary from non-EU countries. I was told this by two authorities in Westminster Diocese-and Africa and other non-EU countries are where the vocations are being answered. Commonwealth status is dead, undermined by EU law. This is to weaken the Church, period.

    Americans have been so dense about this and America will be the same, only worse, as America is more organized than Europe. Please stop writing in intellectual or philosophical terms and realize we are on the edge of complete and organized persecution. Do something. If I in my poverty and age can try and change things, so can you younger ones, especially the men.

    Things did not automatically go bad in Germany. It is the same slide of morals and anti-religious spirit as one sees in the States. If Americans think European countries are worse, they are being blind on purpose. It is just happening here first and with the quickness of decay, things will and are going to be like this in America.

  15. Magash says:

    We are in total free fall. This civilization will not last another century. It’s just a matter of how the end will come. Will it be a resurgence of the jihad that once before almost overwhelmed Europe or will it be an act of God by way of a sunspot EMP event? Or will imploding populations and immoral behavior simply push the moral to withdraw from society to quietly worship in their underground churches until its time to establish the monasteries again to preserve what useful knowledge remains?

  16. frjim4321 says:

    “I do believe (dear @C N) that “those born with characteristics of both sexes” is specifically referring to hermaphrodites.”

    No.

    Hermaphrodites have male genitalia and female breasts.

    There are other developmental disorders in which the genitalia is undifferentiated.

  17. benedetta says:

    frjim4321, By “experts” do you mean those who base their “expertise” on the research of Alfred Kinsey et al? The same expertise that advised Bishops all over the country to return pedophiles to ministry?

  18. Supertradmum says:

    Magash, two years, max

  19. JPManning says:

    @ClavesCoelorum,

    This is totally German, three words for you: der, die , das

  20. The Masked Chicken says:

    “the gender binary”

    Will this be taught in the Common Core Math? Binary gender addition and subtraction?

    The Chicken

    P. S. Mankind will not truly achieve indiscrimination (isn’t that what anti-discrimination is?) until they recognize the rights of chickens :)

  21. Alaina says:

    So now they’ve found a way to sort us by the very most basic beliefs on official government documents. It definitely will make things a lot more efficient. And, yes, it is very creepy.

    I remember when a club store first opened in our area in the late ’80’s. My father filled out a membership application, but the store employee wouldn’t process it until my father wrote down his social security number. After several minutes of my father giving the employee a history and ethics lesson, and demanding the application listing his personal information, we left. If Dad were alive today, I wonder what he would have say to someone who asks him if he opts to remain outside of the gender binary?

    It’s not enough to be able to check personal records and social media history. The information gained from those sources rely on actions and words. By adding one extra box to check under “gender”, admission is given to the mind. This has nothing to do with being sympathetic to a very small part of the population suffering from a genetic abnormality. It’s pathetic, and typical, to hide behind such a guise.

  22. my soul waits for you alone says:

    My experience with people into gender bending is that they want to try and deny that God has any control over them whatsoever, even down to the gender He assigned them. It’s their way of thumbing their nose at Him.

  23. Palladio says:

    “There are other developmental disorders in which the genitalia is undifferentiated.” Yes. This is the sort of thing, based on common sense and science, which is being willfully ignored, distorted, and covered up.

    Chilling story closer to home (if you are in the U. S.): an 18 year girl of my acquaintance showed me the picture, on her cell phone, of her friend. “Doesn’t she make a beautiful girl?” It was a 16 year old boy who had taken hormones to ‘become a girl.’ Our culture is so utterly corrupt, a non-culture, a self-destroying counter-culture, that teenagers take it as normal to ‘change one’s sex.’

  24. incredulous says:

    Bizarre. To think we live in a world where liberals have sent even Satan off the deep end of insanity with their evil… God, please save us all. Help us, please. Have mercy on us.

  25. Legisperitus says:

    Usquequo, Domine, clamabo, et non exaudies?

  26. maryh says:

    @supertradmum At this point, it will be interesting to see who wins in the battle for Europe, the atheistic Marxists or the Muslims.

    Between the two, I’d also pick the Muslims. Not because they have guns but because they have children and raise them to value having children (and a whole lot of other stuff less benign). Unless a woman is independently wealthy, her only options if she wants to raise a large family (defined as more than 2, or maybe even 1) is to find a man willing to commit to her support and protection, usually also including the extended family structure that makes this possible. That means Muslims or certain types of Christians.

    Having and raising your own children is work, and it is work that puts you at a disadvantage on the job market.

  27. Fr Jackson says:

    For some really solid science to refute this silly political correctness , I recommend the work of Dr Leonard Sax. Run a search for “Why Gender Matters” – both the book and his websites are excellent, and pure science-based analysis. (Do be aware that some of his discussions constitute adult content.)
    Another good resource is Abigail Norfleet James’ book “Teaching the Male Brain” – her perspective focuses on consequences of the same research as above but for teachers in the classroom.

  28. StJude says:

    World gets nuttier every day.

  29. TomG says:

    Reality check: They are Germans and given their demographic trajectory they will not even exist in another 200 years or so. The Turks and other Muslims will have taken over – and I think we know how *they” feel about things like this.

  30. OrthodoxChick says:

    What the heck is a “gender binary” anyway? What does that even mean? I don’t get this. If the law in Germany is that anyone can choose their gender or choose none, neutral, indeterminate (whatever), can they do that arbitrarily and at their own whim? I mean, could it be legally possible in Germany for the same person to be born a biological male then choose to label himself as a female as a young adult on his passport? Or is this undecided option restricted only to people who have been born in that rare circumstance where their gender/sex may not be strictly male or female? Can parents assign a gender to their minor children on a passport app too? So if the dopey parents always wanted a boy but God gave them a girl, could they literally flip God off and decide they have a son just by checking a stupid box on a passport app? And the German government would not consider that to be child abuse? But homeschooling that same child in the Catholic faith would be abuse (since a German family who tried to remain in the U.S. in order to homeschool their children will be sent back to Germany to face the persecution they feared). Have I got that right? Indiscriminate sex reassignment for no reason at all other than fancy is legal and not abusive in the least, but raising a child in the Catholic faith constitutes abuse.

    Why stop there. I’m not even a human. I’m a pig. I demand that the government include a box on the passport application for creatures other than humans. I mean, if a pig can act like a human and ride a jetski, drive a car, or fly on a plane, just like the (male) pig on the Geico commercial, then why can’t I? I demand my rights. And while I’m at it, tomorrow’s Wednesday. Mark me down as a camel for tomorrow. Afterall – it’s hump day.

    And no one in Germany has anyting to say about this? This all makes perfect sense to everyone but Fr. Z.’s readers? Hello???? Earth to Germany….

  31. Unwilling says:

    But is this something a large number of Germans have asked for? Or is it government activism?

    Aliter, quod Legisperitus oravit.

  32. thefeds says:

    Just remember, they can equivocate, they can make believe, they can lie, they can mutilate, but they can NEVER change their 26th pair of chromosomes, AND they can’t hide their error from God.

  33. TomG says:

    Jonathan Last, at The Weekly Standard:
    “If you want to understand how truly deep Germany’s problems run, consider this: In 2005, Europe did a Population Policy Acceptance Study which looked at a broad range of demographic indicators. One of these indicators was “ideal fertility”—that is, how many kids an individual thought was the ideal number.

    Twenty-three percent of German men—that’s not a typo, 23 percent—said that “zero” was the ideal family size. There probably aren’t public policy solutions to a cultural worldview like that.”

    How about gender “absolute zero”!

  34. TimG says:

    If the law in Germany is that anyone can choose their gender or choose none, neutral, indeterminate (whatever), can they do that arbitrarily and at their own whim?
    In a way, this is already happening in the US….California Jerry Brown just signed into law that kids can use the bathrooms and locker rooms for the gender that they identify with. Not at the level of marking it on your passport, but with the First Gay President in charge anything is possible.

  35. Palladio says:

    How about words have gender, people have sex?

  36. Legisperitus says:

    Palladio: William Safire gave up that fight in 1984, but it’s still worth fighting for.

  37. Palladio says:

    Thanks, Legisperitus. I use it at every opportunity, and William Safire was of course a voice of reason. I never bought into the gender studies things all the rage in graduate school. It was promoted by professional lesbians, at my university, one of whom converted to lesbianism in middle age, who knew they themselves were a cause to be taken up by liberal administrators for promotion. Both rose very high there, neither produced anything remotely useful or interesting in their fields. Big salaries. Bigger reputations. Not the biggest scam I’d known of there, but pretty big. Never study anything that ends with the word studies.

  38. Jack Hughes says:

    And yet the Holy Father still won’t Consecrate Russia

  39. HyacinthClare says:

    OrthodoxChick, you’ve given me the best laugh in days.

  40. The Masked Chicken says:

    [Pay attention – there is going to be a quiz]

    Binary Gender Math:

    M x F = M or F
    M x M = 0
    F x F = 0
    F x M = M or F
    M x I = M
    F x I = F
    I x I = I

    where, M = male, F = female, I = identity (or blank)

    Okay, I’m gonna do some real math. If there is something called a binary gender, this amounts to a two bit word. Now, Shannon Entropy is defined as: H(X) = -?x P(x)log2[P(x)], where, H(X) (that’s the Greek eta, not H) is the entropy, ?x is the sum over the possible states of x, and P(x) = probability of a particular value of x occurring. For a two-state gender, H(X), male and female, P(x) = 1/2 for each state, so

    H(X) = – (1/2 *-1 + 1/2 * -1) = 1.

    If the number of gender terms is increased to three, then p(x), if we assume that each term has equal standing under law, = 1/3. so

    H(X) = – (1/3 * -1.59 + 1/3 * -1.59 + 1/3 * -1.59) = 1.59.

    Guess what, the entropy has just gone up.

    Why is this a bad thing?

    Entropy is the measure of the randomness of a system – how mixed a system is or how spread out a system is over every possible state. The more random a system is, the more smeared out the states, the less information the system can transmit. What this means is that order within the system is dissipating, evaporating, in a sense. There is no meaning within the system. In a society, it means there is less order and more chaos. It means the social structure is decaying and there is, progressively a lack of distinctions among the members.

    Now, adding a single new gender term is not going to increase the social entropy that much, since there are many different variables to be summed over, but shout this from the roof tops: the liberal agenda is to increase the social entropy so that there are no distinctions within a society, so no one is any better or worse than anyone else, so that there is no such thing as an individual person.

    If you can name a phenomenon, you have power over it, so, from now on, get used to talking about social entropy. It is the technical term for what is going on in society with regards to marriage, with regards to gender, with regards to relativistic theology. This is the central goal behind all of the social agendas among the big players: to increase social entropy. They do this, paradoxically, by increasing the number of different groups within society and simultaneously demanding that no one group can be singled out as being unique.

    This is pure evil, people, because it is well-known that the general tendency is that entropy always increases in the universe – the Second Law of Thermodynamics (although it may decrease, locally). leading to a type of heat death, where there is no energy left to do any work.

    In social terms, the limit of maximum entropy is apathy, which is exactly the opposite of love. When no distinctions matter, no one can get worked up about anything. That is apathy. We see that, even today, with charges of homophobia. It is the encroachment of entropy that no longer will permit one to get worked up about sexual sin. This increase in types of sexual congress between male and male or female and female with the corresponding suppression of allowing anyone to complain, will, ultimately lead to exhaustion and apathy.

    The powers-that-be know this. THAT IS THEIR GOAL. Tell as many people as you know that this is the hidden agenda. If everyone is apathetic, then they can be controlled at the level of impersonal forces, because, to them, every thing has become impersonal.

    Now you know the math of why this gender stuff is important.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entropy

    The Chicken

  41. Alaina says:

    @Orthodox Chick
    You make a very important point: “So if the dopey parents always wanted a boy but God gave them a girl, could they literally flip God off and decide they have a son just by checking a stupid box on a passport app? And the German government would not consider that to be child abuse?”

    There have already been abusive parents in the past who have dressed and named their children to reflect the opposite sex solely because their children weren’t the sex that they wanted. It is very scary to think that the door could be opened wider to allow such abuse.

    Just one question: Tomorrow, when you identify yourself as a camel, will you be checking off the box for a one-humped camel, a two-humped camel, or will you opt out of the camel binary species classification? ;)

  42. OrthodoxChick says:

    Alaina,

    Hmm, well, does it really matter? I mean one hump or two, male/female/indeterminate, we’re all still camels just the same, right? It’s not like God purposely creates us camels to have any differences by design or anything. Pay no attention to the humps.

    Oh, and for those outside the U.S. who have absolutely no idea what we’re talking about, enjoy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWBhP0EQ1lA

  43. ClavesCoelorum says:

    StWinefried, thanks. :D I don’t take that attitude, since I have British ancestors and identify more with them than my German roots. :) Rule, Britannia!

    J P Manning: Der, die, das. Then there is einer, eine, ein. Du and Sie. So much fun to have with words! :) Still, I do not feel this sort of thing is classicly German. Rules, etc. may be, but introducing something new to society without any real mandate, especially in relation to sexuality, isn’t. Again, I’d expect PM Cameron to do something like that, but not our government.

  44. Kathleen10 says:

    Germany will forever be trying to make up for Hitler. Now they must approve of everything and everybody.
    Where are the good people of Germany on this? All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to say nothing. (paraphrase)

  45. sunbreak says:

    On the other hand, there really are people with gender identity disorder who identify themselves as members of the opposite sex. It’s creepy to me, but I have a teenage relative who has started taking shots to transform herself. From the time she was not quite 3 years old she insisted she was a boy. No one gave her this idea. It wasn’t a passing phase. She wasn’t just a tomboy. If you called her a girl when she was so young, she cried and screamed and acted like you were about to murder her. She refused to wear anything she perceived as girl clothes. I don’t know what the answer is to such things.

  46. Palladio says:

    But to recognize it as a disorder is only right and good. To pretend that shots and surgery treat the disorder has no basis, I am told, in science or medicine. It is radically psychiatric, at best, and the outcomes are horrific, since they are not treating the disorder but allowing it to take over the host. Ghastly.

  47. Jim Dorchak says:

    Ok this sounds like a scene from monty python. Lets throw this stupid discussion off a bridge the Germans are already in the water, and no it is not just a flesh wound.

  48. Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    Does the new law run afoul of existing laws (not that that would be an impediment to implementation) which required parents to give their children names which are identifiably male or female, and at least consonant with German?

  49. James Joseph says:

    This is going to seem like a swipe, but….

    …I immediately thought of Baptists theology gone to it’s logical extreme.

    “Nobody is cognizant until they choose for themselves based entirely on how one feels.”

  50. wiFoodie says:

    A few months ago the staff at Marquette University invited a “transgendered” activist to assist them in their plans to make the campus and degree programs more welcoming to these individuals. The Cardinal Neumann Society reported this story. It prompted me to search Wikipedia for a definition on the words femine and masculine….what I read was complete propaganda . I see a big connection to the push for Common Core here. With the elimination of books in print, libraries that have been “weeding” real literature out and replacing their offerings with garbage, and the move to virtual “education” it feels like it will be impossible to keep the truth alive for future generations.

  51. Minnesotan from Florida says:

    I am puzzled about some of the discussion about babies born physically ambiguous as to sex (not “gender” – a grammatical term – thank you, various contributors). Whatever the physical/ gross-anatomical situation may be, is not the genetic/chromosomal (chromosomatal?) situation clear, and nowadays easily ascertainable? And would not the urologists/plastic surgeons/or-whoever try to make the child anatomically, functionally as far as possible the sex given by the chromosomes?

    I have been concerned whether the view is tenable (I do not really believe it, but is it tenable – sententia minus probabilis sed probabilis?) that in some persons there may be a “gender” other than the person’s biological sex which may cause sex-reassignment surgery to be acceptable as an alleviation, if not a cure. I have been told that the Holy See has addressed this question, but do not know any references or details. All I have found is the CCC’s “Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity” (emphasis on “identity” not within my skill to reproduce here) (CCC 2332). This is not sufficiently far-reaching to answer the situation of a pathological “gender dysphoria,” such as some assert can exist.

    Incidentally, one reads of teenaged “transgender” people. I assume they are indeed “transgender” and not “transsexual,” to use a distinction enunciated by a woman-former-man publicly lecturing at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, i.e., cross-dressers, excusable, if at all, as exploring the possibility of sex-reassignment surgery, for I cannot believe that any physician would actually do orchidectomy and vagina-construction on a teenager. Here, even more than in the question, “Am I homosexual?”, I think premature and quite possibly wrong conclusions can be drawn by people still quite young, which, quite apart from natural law or the will of God, ought “not yet” to be acted upon.

  52. Cantor says:

    Masked Chicken – You’re not as out there as you might think. Federal agencies currently identify individuals’ sex in one of several categories. M, F, M formerly F, F formerly M, M transitioning to F, F transitioning to M, M generally seen as F, F generally seen as M, and Other.

    Law Enforcement agencies use the data for Wanted Posters and BOLOs, while prison systems use them for assignment purposes. Several states have had to deal with inmates going through gender reassignment and determine at which stage they change facilities.

  53. Yeah, “gender binary” . . . I went to a secular State University and heard this kind of talk all over the place. It makes them sound “intellectual”, but they are really just a bunch of posers. Ronald Reagan nailed it when he said, “the problem with my liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant, it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.” So well put, and true.

  54. Minnesotan from Florida says:

    (1) However misshapen anatomically a newborn may be, is not the baby’s chromosomal (chromosomatal?) status as male or female clear (at least almost always)? And would not the urologists/plastic surgeons/whatever seek to further that status? I am puzzled that this would except in very rare cases be a problem. (I mean to decide. The execution may be difficult indeed.)

    (2) I have read authors who work from a premise that in some persons the “gender” (psychological feeling about what one’s sex “really” is, I suppose) may be different from the biological sex, and that for some of these persons sexual reassignment surgery may thus be a licit cure or at any rate alleviation. Although I do not myself believe this, I have wondered whether it may be a permissible view (“sententia minus probabilis sed tamen probabilis”). Indeed, all that I could find with my limited resources is CCC 2333: “Everyone, man or woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity” (emphasis on “identity” not reproducible with my low skills). This would seem to leave open the rare cases of “true” (if there is such a thing) “gender dysphoria.” I am told that there is material from the Holy See that refutes, denies, disapproves of this thinking, but I have not the references.

    (3) One reads about children (adolescents) of high school age who are “transgender”; I suppose that this means that they are not (yet) actually “transsexual” (to use a distinction made by a man-now-woman who gave a public lecture at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul), for I cannot imagine that a physician would actually do “sex reassignment surgery” on someone so young. Indeed, on this question, as well as on the question whether one is oneself “a homosexual,” I think that at the high school age it is simply impossible to say, such being necessarily the immaturity of a person still so young.

  55. Fr_Sotelo says:

    Some college kids no longer identify as male or female but “pansexual”. I guess in Germany you can be Ger-man or Ger-pan, or Gerp for short. The Germans have always been so clever LOL.

  56. BLB Oregon says:

    If the child does not have some issue like Klinefelter syndrome (a true XXY genotype), it sounds like child abuse to deny knowing at birth what their gender is. If the child has some true indication of being physically hermaphrodite, I suppose it is OK that this is recorded at birth. (This is not the same as gender identity disorder or some projected gender dysphoria that parents feel entitled to put onto the child, though. I mean a real medical condition, identifiable by doctors.)

  57. Fool_for_Christ says:

    Creepy is right, Father. We have Sisters saying that their god needs the cosmos, math where it is more important to defend one’s position (like a lawyer or politician) than to have the right answer, a supposedly advanced, intelligent country that is legislating that a boy or girl clearly born as such can be given a neutral gender status on their birth certificate. It’s like a BAD movie. What next? I guess it’s better not to ask that question and just take the day with its problems. Regardless, at least they cannot deprive us of prayer and martyrdom. May the Lord sustain us…

  58. Martlet says:

    1 in 2000 babies are born with genitals that are sufficiently of both sexes for a determination of sex not to be possible. That is a lot of babies with a lot of room for error if they do corrections too early. So what are we supposed to call them? Birls? Goys? Or can we not simply accept that their sex is not yet evident and allow for a later determination? I think this might be what Germany is trying to do.

  59. Imrahil says:

    Dear @Minnesotan from Florida,

    ad 1: it is precisely the point that there are XY-women (and apparently, though I guess more seldom, XX-men).

    Measurements for correction of the phenotype according to the genotype was (if I am rightly informed) precisely what caused (or was used to cause) the protests.

    That does not, though, change the possibility that it was used intentionally, and the imho high probability that it may be used in the future, to further these anti-sexus agenda we know of.

  60. The Masked Chicken says:

    “1 in 2000 babies are born with genitals that are sufficiently of both sexes for a determination of sex not to be possible.”

    Citation, please. Cleft palates occur in 1/1000 children. 1/2000 babies born hermaphroditic sounds too large. True hermaphroditism, as opposed to some small statistical deviation from normality, is probably very rare in complex species, at least genotypically. The point is, should we be massively re-writing the social order for something that does not affect 99.95% of the population?? The odds of dying from all accidents is greater. Should we all stay indoors on the couch?

    http://gizmodo.com/5984725/the-odds-of-dying-in-a-freak-accident-are-harder-than-you-think

    The Chicken

  61. Martlet says:

    Chicken – I would need to retrace my footsteps across the internet to give you citations, something I don’t have time for right now, but the information is out there. Calling someone “hermaphroditic”is offensive to those who are born with various abnormalities, from what I was reading earlier. But – and again I can’t cite witout retracing – it seems that people didn’t really sweat it in the past. They just lived with it. Today, after a few short decades of performing surgery which stood a good chance of opting for the wrong sex, doctors now prefer to wait. I actually see sense in Germany’s decision in this matter since it only reflects what doctors are actually doing. Again, from earlier reading, the medical aim is to have the person fully functioning as an adult of the right sex, with appropriate surgical correction so that they may lead normal married lives. Why we should have so much more angst over this than, say, the correction of spinabifida or some other congenital abnormality, I just don’t get. The German law seems to be reflecting a fact of birth that doctors, nurses and parents can see with their own eys.

  62. Imrahil says:

    The dear @Unwilling raised the important question:

    But is this something a large number of Germans have asked for? Or is it government activism?

    I do not suspect the responsible people to have been activist (which can only be with intention). Maybe some lobbies or subaltern officials were activist. It is certain that there was no “movement” of any sort.

    For good or evil, it was one of the legislatory changes which are passed through without much discussion (at least without apparently the least bit of discussion within the media, I have not read the parliamentary protocols) upon the request of the responsible Ministress (I don’t know whether that means Family or Justice).

  63. The Cobbler says:

    Remain outside binary? That does not compute.

    If you need me, I’ll be in my incurable punster cave not duplicating the statements of actual insight others have already made.

  64. spock says:

    I believe I understand what is happening. Europe appears to have a very interesting strategy.

    To avoid what would seem to be an eventual “islamitization” of Europe, member states will engage in such a depravity ( such as defining a third gender )the even more secular muslims won’t be able to stomach it.

    In the words of “Wally” from the “Dilbert” comic strip, “They can’t break you if you don’t have a spine.”

  65. Fool_for_Christ says:

    Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    2393 By creating the human being man and woman, God gives personal dignity equally to the one and the other. Each of them, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity.