WDTPRS: What Did The Pope Really Say? 1 – UPDATES

I finally got the glacial site of the vile Italian daily La Repubblica to cough up the latest Franciscan interview… in Italian.

When I read in the English version that Pope allegedly said,

“The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood”,

I said to myself, “That can’t be right. Swap out brotherhood with something like ‘sisterhood’ and he sounds like an LCWR nun, and he is no fan of theirs or of their ‘female machismo’!”  No! Allow me to amend.  None of them would have said that.  They’ve grown beyond Jesus and words like “son”.  But you get my drift.  The Second Person of the Trinity did not incarnate in the “souls of men”.

So… What Did The Pope Really Say?  My emphasis.

Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza….

The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in soul of men the feeling of brotherhood.

Perhaps better… “awareness… sense” of brotherhood?

I would like to take that “sentimento” in the Italian sense of “awareness”, but since Pope Francis is fundamentally a Spanish speaker, I don’t know what he meant by it here. I suspect we have to hear “sentimento/sentimiento” as “feeling”.  Honestly, my Spanish isn’t quite strong enough yet to hear that possible nuance behind the Italian.  In Italian I would have said something like, “consapevolezza”… or, now that I think of it, “senso”.

We have to be careful with the reports about what Francis said.  We have to check the English version of the interview against the Italian.

I am sure there will be other examples.

UPDATE:

In the meantime, the vile La Repubblica has this as a headline right now, filtered to you from a twit on Twitter:

“Questo Papa è il Rohani del Vaticano”… “This Pope is the Rohani of the Vatican”.

Yah… that’s right.  Talk about not getting this at all.

UPDATE:

From a reader:

Pope Francis–“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them.”

Here, man “conceives” what is good or evil. Conceiving what is good or evil on an individual level is Moral Relativism.

Catholic Church in GS 16

16. In the depths of his conscience, man detects [Latin detegit] a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.(9) Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.(10) In a wonderful manner conscience reveals that law which is fulfilled by love of God and neighbor.

Here, man “detects a law” in his conscience he must be “obedient” to. Conscience “reveals that law”, not “conceived” by each according to one’s liking.

How do we reconcile these things that seem to be in direct opposition?

It think you may be over analyzing this on the basis of the English alone.

What Did The Pope Really Say?

Ciascuno ha una sua idea del Bene e del Male e deve scegliere di seguire il Bene e combattere il Male come lui li concepisce….

Each person has his idea of Good and of Evil and he must choose to follow Good and combat Evil as he perceives / understands them…

In this case, Italian “concepire” is clear understood in the sense of “understand, believe, perceive”, maybe even “grasp” and not English “conceive” in the sense of making something up on one’s own, as in “devise”.

In English we can say that “he conceived a plan”, which is something that he comes up with.  Otherwise, we can say that “he couldn’t conceive what she was rattling on about”, which means that he didn’t understand, couldn’t workout out what she was saying.  Be careful of “false friends” in translation. Sometimes similar words do not have the same meaning or the same impact.

Let’s turn back to your citation of GS16 with that “detects”.  Latin detego, detexi, detectum (compound of tego “to cover, hide”) is, in the first place, “to un-cover, lay bare” and also to “dis-cover, dis-close, de-tect”.

From Vatican website: In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience.  Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that.

Latin (doesn’t hack up the sentence): In imo conscientiae legem homo detegit, quam ipse sibi non dat, sed cui obedire debet, et cuius vox, semper ad bonum amandum et faciendum ac malum vitandum eum advocans, ubi oportet auribus cordis sonat: fac hoc, illud devita.

Fr. Z: In the depths of conscience man discovers the law which he does not give to himself, but which he is obliged to obey, and whose voice, always summoning him to do good and to avoid evil, whenever it is necessary rings in the ears of the heart: do this, shun that.

There is juridical language: lex, advoco.  However, the Holy Spirit is referred to in language both juridical and moral: Advocate, Counselor.  Advoco can also mean “console” and the Holy Spirit is called Consoler.

I love the image GS16 invokes: the “law’s voice summons” us to obligations, to obedience, to action.  It is as if we are, in the moment of “discovery” of the previously hidden evidence in the case, then placed before the bar in a moment of truth, when we are called to act justly and truthly in the face of the evidence that has been uncovered.

I digress.

I don’t see much daylight between Francis’ “concepisce”, rightly understood, and the GS 16 detegit.

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About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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83 Responses to WDTPRS: What Did The Pope Really Say? 1 – UPDATES

  1. Philip Jude says:

    Even so, the Holy Father distressingly portrays Christ primarily in an Abelardian manner: as a teacher and moral exemplar. Of course, this is not untrue (nor unimportant), but the primary motivation for the incarnation was the atonement. Did not St. Bernard dispatch with this humanistic temptation a millennium ago? If the pope wants to proclaim the gospel (as he is always saying), why does he not simply do so? “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and was raised again after three days!”

  2. JoAnna says:

    Did you see this, Fr. Z? //www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/utterly-predictable-news-flash-pope-mistranslated [Can't say I have. The name looks familiar, but I can't recall why.]

  3. Suburbanbanshee says:

    I got out my old Collins Spanish dictionary, and I can assure you that “sentimiento” in Spanish means not only “feeling, emotion” but also “sense.” (Similarly, “sentido” can mean “sense” and also “feeling, emotion.”)

  4. Henry Belton says:

    So….maybe the translator got it wrong about the greatest evil facing the world? Maybe in Italian “youth unemployment” is close to “the scourge of abortion”, or maybe “moral relativism”, or maybe “the deterioration of the family”, or maybe “Christian genocide in the middle east”, or maybe…………?

    Just sayin…I love Francis, but……youth unemployment?

  5. e.davison49 says:

    Fr Z wrote in red: “[Can't say I have. The name looks familiar, but I can't recall why.]”

    She attacked you viciously last winter on her blog.

    [Right. I hope she got a little traffic out of it. But this is a rabbit hole.]

  6. JuliB says:

    “Just sayin…I love Francis, but……youth unemployment?”

    In addition to the reasons listed above, I also take issue with this being listed because the solutions are economic and political, and outside of the Church’s expertise. As lay people, we must be informed by our faith in order to fill our roles in the secular world, but I don’t think that something caused by the various governments is something the Church should be concerning herself with. Does the Church really need to get involved with quantitative easing, deflation, unstable business environments on this side of the pond? And on other sides, we have extreme corruption, a lack of a rule of law, overgrown welfare states.

    Oh my.

  7. Quanah says:

    @ Philip Jude,

    Atheists have heard many times over that Christ died for our sins and was raised again after three days. Here is the translation into atheistese: “Blah blah. Blah, blah blah blah.” Could the Pope have said more? Yes. Should he have said more? I think so. But we have to remember that the loss of brotherhood among people is a big point for many atheist, seculars, and all people in general. And it’s a interview. As to the primary reason for the Incarnation, it most certainly was not moral (as important as that is, as you said), but it isn’t necessarily redemptive either. The primary reason for the Incarnation is the deification of man. Because of this there is a very strong theological argument that the Son of God would have become incarnate even if there had been no fall from grace. However, since there was a fall from grace theosis is inseparable from redemption.

  8. MarnieBarcelona says:

    I like Pope Francis too, but I feel like saying: “You have the right to remain silent. Everything you say can and WILL be used against Catholicism/Catholics in the MSM.”

  9. Stumbler but trying says:

    @ Suburbanbanshee:

    I am fluent in Spanish and you are correct in your translation of the word “sentimiento” it can mean many things to those of us who are fluent in the language.
    If the Holy Father is like many of us who are fluent…we think in Spanish, when we talk in English, but are talking in Spanish as only we would know. That is amusing indeed. ^^
    And remember…I said “IF.”

    Have a wonderful day/evening everyone. The beautiful month of October is upon us all. The month of our Lady of the Rosary. Let’s take up this beautiful prayer and pray for our Holy Father and for all priests and faithful especially our brothers and sisters who are suffering for their faith in Christ Jesus.

    Father Z, thanks again for taking up the arduous task of dissecting, trying to understand what the Holy Father is saying, and to whom he is saying it and in what context. You have your work cut out for you! Keep a level head, a calmer heart and above all, stay in prayer and never lose hope!

  10. pipponeri says:

    Hi Fr. Z! I usually don’t comment but I just had to today. I was just talking with another priest telling him: “Fr. Z. should now call his blog: What Did the Pope Really Say?” and as I’m saying that I’m checking out the blog and voila! The category title was just that! Thanks for your insight and your work, it is a blessing for us all.

  11. SpittleFleckedNutty says:

    @Stumbler but trying says: Father Z, thanks again for taking up the arduous task of dissecting, trying to understand what the Holy Father is saying

    Yes!

    I hope that you do keep giving the Father Z translation of WDTPopeRS. A tether, no matter how thin, is still a tether. And I’ll also add thanks for providing a place to vent a little angst and frustration without being dismissed as an unhinged hater. I know it must wear on you Father, moderating all these comments. Thank you.

  12. McCall1981 says:

    Yes, thank you very much Fr. Z.
    Francis terrifies me, but your blog is one of the few things I can hold on to for some stability, so thank you.

  13. Pingback: Is Pope Francis’ Accessibility a Good Thing or a Disaster?

  14. ChrisRawlings says:

    I need a little bit of help here. I find that every time one of these interviews or supposedly scandalous statements is unveiled, I go into a mode of terrible theological crisis–to the point where I am tempted a great deal by the thought of leaving the Church. I should note that I was received into the Church about six years ago.

    I appreciate being challenged by the Holy Father to think a little differently with the Church. But I am left absolutely despairing after these things. I readily assign blame to myself and my weak faith and not the Pope or even the mainstream media. But, the question is, what do you actually do about that? I steep myself in formation, but I still roll into these voracious patterns of doubt and scandal and, then, after reading and talking with a good bit of the orthodox Catholic world, renewed comfort in the Church.

    I understand the principle of placing my trust solely in Christ and His plan for the Church. But how exactly do you build that without being rocked off the reservation every time the Pope talks to an atheist?

    As a side note, has anyone noticed that the Holy Father often sounds a great deal like St. Josemaria Escriva? His recent homily to Sardinian youth sounded very, very similar to something, or, really, many things, written by St. Josemaria.

  15. JoAnna says:

    e.davison – Bearing false witness against your neighbor is a sinful action. Simcha Fisher has never “viciously attacked” Fr. Z on her blog or elsewhere – unless you think calling Fr. Z “mostly reliable” and saying that she was “mildly irritated” by an action of his is a “vicious attack”?

    If that’s your perception of a “vicious attack,” then I have to assume you live in a cloistered monastery somewhere and have very sporadic contact with the outside world.

    At any rate, Fr. Z, my point in posting that article was to indicate only that many others agree with you regarding the ineptness of this interview’s translation, not to introduce any “rabbit holes.”

  16. Diane at Te Deum Laudamus says:

    Thanks Father. Keep it coming.

    The way things are going, Father Z, you might want to consider renaming the blog:

    What Did the Pope Really Say?

    Or, if you want to change the acronym: WDPFRS (What did Pope Francis really say?)

    Jimmy Akin has some interesting notes from the interview, as well. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-just-say-that-evangelization-is-nonsense-8-things-to-know

  17. Traductora says:

    I think we have to bear in mind that he is speaking, very personally, to an atheist. If you’re a Catholic, you believe in natural law and its imprint in every human soul. Does this mean someone has to know God first? Not consciously. And the Pope actually hit on an important point (I deal with a lot of atheists and vague deists every day) that I think a lot of believers don’t understand.

    Even an atheist has to make a moral choice. Most of them don’t, because they let their political party or some completely unrelated part of their lives (such as being a homosexual) make their choices for them. They don’t sit down and seriously ask themselves what is right and wrong and what their conscience tells them, because they just listen to Obama or whoever is their leftist political heartthrob of the moment and let that person or his party make the decision for them.

    As for the “most pressing problems” being youth unemployment and the treatment of the elderly, he was referring to manageable things on a secular level.

    But even there, I can see a spiritual dimension. Today we had a very poor, frail old lady come into church while I was giving tours of the historic building and ask me if we had a van or any transportation to Mass for people who didn’t drive because she has just moved here and really wants to be able to attend Mass every Sunday. But she lives in a singlewide a few miles into the country, because that’s all she could afford.

    She lived in a very Protestant area of the South before where she couldn’t attend Mass often at all because there was no Catholic church anywhere near and there was so much hostility against Catholics that the attempt of the town’s handful of Catholics to start a tiny mission church visited once a month had practically resulted in their being driven out of town.

    But I had to tell her that we had no way of getting outlying people to Mass. It’s been discussed, but every time, the parish and diocesan officials have come forward and said we couldn’t possibly do it – this despite the fact that every Protestant church in town has rented school busses and vans that go out and bring in the faithful every Sunday. So maybe we have to stop worrying so much about what is wrong with the Pope and really look at the genuine social aspect of our own parish life – that is, not the useless EEMS and unnecessary quasi-clerical positions, but the day to day caring for our brethren. (And not just the ones deemed officially needy by social service agencies and then handed over to government care, which seems to be what most Catholic “social services” do now.)

    BTW, I found somebody who lives near her and will probably be able to bring her to mass most Sundays. But why shouldn’t we just offer this as a matter of course? The elderly are only going to be more and more threatened in the brave new world that is being ushered in.

  18. Woody79 says:

    Well, here I go again! I know it’s only Tuesday but it’s time to break out the single malt scotch and another cigar. Actually, maybe these interviews aren’t so bad!

  19. Dr. Edward Peters says:

    I greatly value your comments. Thank you!

  20. terryprest says:

    Thank you Father for bringing some calm and cool reason in regard to the recent interview of the Holy Father, Pope Francis

    The interview was of course not a formal speech or homily.

    It was an informal event delivered in Italian to an Italian popular daily newspaper. Its intended audience was presumably the ordinary Italian in the street

    It was obviously not meant to be parsed as if it were a formal “policy” statement or statement of doctrine or dogma

    It was a statement of concern as well as a call for the Italian political elite to alleviate very serious social problems

    @Henry Belton. No one disputes that war, abortion and euthanasia are the major evils of our time. The Pope is on record as stating that they are and has condemned them without reservation and in the strongest terms.

    It would seem that what he wanted to talk about were two major problems in present day Italian society which in a time of political crisis in Italy, the Italian people wish their leaders to tackle and which they appear to be unable or unwilling to tackle.

    In his interview he seemed to be pointing out the Christian terms of the debate. Indeed he seemed to highlight (and has in recent speeches) the moral causes of the present predicament in Italy. He is also pointing out the moral consequences to individuals and communities if the present situation is not addressed in an effective and moral way

    Youth unemployment is a very grave problem in Italy. Officially 42% of 15- to 24-year-olds are out of work, the real figure is probably higher.

    Young people who are in education and training are not considered part of the job market and neither are those who have given up hope of finding a job and not actively looking for one. Also excluded are those on short term or “zero hour” contracts who are regarded as being employed
    See
    http://www.gazzettadelsud.it/news/63717/Italian-unemployment-youth-jobless-hit-record-highs.html

    There is no unemployment benefit system or welfare system for these people. This long term unemployment is not a short term phenomenon but is of long duration and does seem likely to subsist for some time. Labour markets and other markets do not operate as efficiently and effectively as those in the USA or the UK where governments take active steps to ensure that the markets are run as free liberal markets

    The Italian government`s and the EU`s plans to tackle youth unemployment seem destined to fail
    http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21582006-german-led-plans-tackling-youth-unemployment-europe-are-far-too-timid-guaranteed-fail

    The difficulty of looking after a burgeoning elderly population is also a major problem. Because of the declining birth rate in past years there are fewer people working to support an ever growing population. Indeed because of birth control and abortion Italy`s population is declining.

    Families increasingly do not look after the older generations as they did in the past. If they are lucky their care is farmed out to be looked after by poor immigrant workers from Poland, the Ukraine, Romania and other Eastern European countries. If they are unlucky it is the nursing home (and there is no proper system of regulation) or worse they are simply abandoned
    See
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/world/europe/celebrating-the-elderly-with-a-nervous-eye-on-the-future.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    The Pope`s message and sense of timing appears to be impeccable and perfectly consistent with Catholic social teaching as enunciated by his predecessors.

    A left wing message ? No definitely not. And certainly not as “loaded” as Pope Benedict XVI`s “Caritas in Veritate”

  21. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    What would, or might, it imply if the Pope was not failing to translate Spanish ‘sentimiento’ (for which the first dictionary I check notes the set phrases ‘s. de culpa/culpabilidad’ and ‘s. del deber [duty]‘) with Italian ‘senso’, but deliberately intending Italian ‘sentimento’?

    ‘Il Rohani del Vaticano’, but, but, isn’t Mr. R. more, um, skillfully ‘jesuitical’ than the Holy Father?

  22. mamajen says:

    Regarding Update #2, my immediate impression after reading the interview was that Pope Francis was saying precisely what that portion of the Catechism states. No way in hell was he trying to condone moral relativism or suggest that man ought to decide for himself what good and evil are.

    My brother, who had been a lapsed Catholic, has apparently returned to the Church and posted on Facebook this part of a sermon he heard at mass on Sunday:

    “We were not given free will just to be told what we can and cannot do by the church. Every individual was given the ability to discover what is right, and it is up to them to seek it…”

    He added that this is what he thought Pope Francis was trying to say in The Big Interview (which he had read about). I’m sure this latest interview would only cement his belief. Some people ARE getting the right message, and ARE putting two and two together in a good way.

    Whether we think Pope Francis is as clear as we think he should be or not, the whole point is that people have a natural nagging toward what is good and true regardless of what the Pope may say.

  23. Elizabeth M says:

    Enough! The Western world needs to have only 2 main languages: Latin & Greek. It’s going to be a long papacy.
    I avoid reading any “news” or interviews with Pope Francis. The media picks it apart so much. I think it would be easier for me to read and understand Benedict XVI in German than any interview with Pope Francis printed in English. It’s like another version of Babble!
    Thank you Father Z for sorting this out for us. I would hate to think His Holiness is trying to “water down” the Truth to make it more appealing to the world.

  24. LA says:

    “Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza…. “The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in soul of men the feeling/awareness/sense of brotherhood.”

    Seriously? The Pope doesn’t know why God became Man? He doesn’t know the basic teaching of the Catholic Church about the Incarnation? The Son of God became man to die for our sins! Any 7 year old should be able to give that answer. As the Baltimore Catechism says, “God did not abandon man after Adam fell into sin, but promised to send into the world a Saviour to free man from his sins and to reopen to him the gates of heaven.”

    Holy Father, the correct answer is:
    “The Son of God was incarnate to free man from his sins and to reopen to him the gates of heaven.”

  25. McCall1981 says:

    From ‘A Doctrinal Note on some Aspects of Evangelisation’ by the CDF in 2007.

    “There is today, however, a growing confusion which leads many to leave the missionary command of the Lord unheard and ineffective (cf. Mt 28:19). Often it is maintained that any attempt to convince others on religious matters is a limitation of their freedom. From this perspective, it would only be legitimate to present one’s own ideas and to invite people to act according to their consciences, without aiming at their conversion to Christ and to the Catholic faith. It is enough, so they say, to help people to become more human or more faithful to their own religion; it is enough to build communities which strive for justice, freedom, peace and solidarity. Furthermore, some maintain that Christ should not be proclaimed to those who do not know him, nor should joining the Church be promoted, since it would also be possible to be saved without explicit knowledge of Christ and without formal incorporation in the Church.”

    Isn’t this condemning exactly what Francis is saying?

  26. Patrick-K says:

    Elizabeth M: “I would hate to think His Holiness is trying to “water down” the Truth to make it more appealing to the world.”

    Not to make it more appealing per se, but better understood. I’ve been reading a few verses from Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians. For example, “I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.” Yes, St. Paul did water things down. But not simply to appease.

  27. I think that Pope Francis should be required to give all future interviews in Latin so that the chance of misunderstanding and misinterpretation is greatly reduced.

    Fr. Z's Gold Star Award

  28. pigg0214 says:

    Fr. Z, thank you for explaining the faulty translation in your second update.

    You have your work cut out for you. God bless!

  29. lana says:

    Here are some words of comfort for those contemplating the ledge. From Fr. _Frederick_ Faber (Books like “All for Jesus”, the hymn “Faith of Our Fathers” and many others)

    As it is with the countries of the world, so it is with the ages of the world. Each age has its own distinctive spirit. It has its own proper virtues, and its own proper vices. ..Each requires to be dealt with in that way. This is the reason why the Church seems to act differently in different ages. There is a sense in which the Church goes along with the world. It is the same sense in which the shepherd leaves the sheep which have not strayed, and goes off in search of the one that has strayed. Each age is a stray sheep from God; and the Church has to seek it and fetch it back to Him, so far as it is allowed to do so. We must not make light of the differences of the ages. Each age needs persuading in a manner of its own. It finds its own difficulties in religion. It has its own peculiar temptations and follies. God’s work is never done in any one age. It has to be begun again in every age. Old methods are found unsuitable, because things have changed. It is on this account that theology puts on new aspects, that religious orders first succeed and then fail, that devotion has fashions and vicissitudes, that art and ritual undergo changes, that discipline is modified… But the Precious Blood adapts itself with changeful uniformity to every age.
    From – The Precious Blood . (Written in 1860) (p.27-28 – Tan Books)

  30. coeyannie says:

    Wake me up when all the experts have figured out what the Pope is saying.

  31. lana says:

    Pope Francis is doing a great job making everyone dust off their Catechisms!

  32. RafqasRoad says:

    Traductora at #16,

    Amen to you, I say AMEN!! Prior to marrying, I lived in regional/Rural Australia for most of my adult life save two short years and due to disability that prohibits driving, was reliant upon the generosity of others to get to church re parishioners offering a private ride into the service with them. sometimes this worked, sometimes it didn’t. Isolation and prevention of the frail aged and those with disability from equal and free participation in Church life IS A REAL AND PRESSING PROBLEM!! public transport often runs poorly or not at all on sundays, and for those who can’t use it for the above reasons is a non-point anyway. Disability surveys carried out by and for mainstream denominations repeatedly show that those with a disability that prevents them from driving (include the frail aged here also) who wish to participate in Church life regularly are limited by access issues from doing so; the figures reveal that only around 20% of those in the above categories who would like to attend church weekly or more are actually able to do so. I know this may seem like a rabbit hole, but Traductora raised this and I am unashamedly pointing out the facts of life. The Church militant SHOULD BE STREETS AHEAD, STREETS AHEAD!! OF THE PROTESTANT WORLD ETC AT DEALING WITH THIS!! Not ashamed of shouting about this either. And if one wishes to be a daily communicant…for me, even with my husband’s willingness to drive me and give of his time (he is not a believer/church goer – remember, I converted to Catholic Christianity AFTER marrying, years after) even I cannot be a daily communicant and would adore to be!! We are the forgotten by the Church Militant and even the Church bland…who rabit on about ‘the poor’ but what of the poor among our own number – e.g. imposed spiritual poverty because of disability that leads to isolation from parish life and attending mass and other sacraments in the congregation. The imposed church of one in the home of the disabled or frail aged is a very very lonely and even heartbreaking place. many of us do not have family to aid in this dilemma and for those of us who are converts/First Generation Christians life is often even lonlier…I have asked Fr. Zuhlsdorf to write on the topic of disability, access and full incorporation into the Church Millitant from time to time and have supplied links to resources that would make an excellent starting point. I know he is incredibly busy and stretched very thin in his ministry to us and Holy Mother Church but…In the UK, torch Trust for the blind www torchtrust org does an incredible job and is a model of ministry that well understands the isolating facet of disability/ageing and provides much meaningful ministry to combat this. Supertrad Mum would likely be familiar with Torch and its amazing work, given her time in the UK. the Church Millitant needs its own Torch Trust, its own Jonnie and Friends (who do in the states what Torch in the UK does but for those with profound disability). WE SHOULD BE STREETS AHEAD, RATHER THAN DISECTING POPE FRANCIS’S WORDS; or rather, we should be doing both. Remember, we must be, I repeat MUST BE matt 23: 23 people!! Jesus summed it all up in this and its surrounding verses; attend to both temporal and spiritual in equal measure because both are dead without the other.

    Blessings,

    Soon to be South Coast Catholic (Aussie Maronite).

  33. Andrew says:

    All this parsing of minute details is missing the big picture. The Pope was not delivering some oracles to be etched in stone. This was a private conversation between two individuals, one of whom happens to be the Pope. Not everything the Pope says has to be received like a bolt of lightning from above. The big picture is this: in the eyes of the public, in the eyes of the big movers and shakers of this world, the Church has become something of a public nuisance. There is zero appreciation for its divine origin or its teaching authority. The average western man barks at the Church with utter disdain. And we want to walk around scrutinizing minute details of “official” pronouncements. Woo hoo! Now we have a Pope – thank God – who is not going to play this game any more. He meets the people where they are. He talks to these western spoiled brats, who run some silly newspaper or TV station or whatever, the “holders of the microphone” and he joins the conversation. And it will be hard to ignore him, because he gets in the middle of the fight. This is about a competition of who is the kinder, gentler person. People who commit horrible atrocities are parading themselves as benefactors of the human race: people like our leaders in Washington who don’t want to be “punished with a child”. Who couldn’t care less what word was used in some well chiseled ecclesiastical document. So the Pope gets in there and starts shaking things up. “You wanna talk some xxxxx? I can talk some xxxxx too!” The next thing that will follow will be a lot of confusion on the part of the “talking heads”. They’re going to say: “hey, he sounds like us doesn’t he?” But he doesn’t. When the smoke clears, when everyone will start paying attention, then he will say some things that will not be ignorable. This is a process. Let’s go with it. Our Lord didn’t send Peter out to be afraid to talk or to surround himself with a group of advisors on what to say. So he’s the Pope and he has opinions and he’s not afraid to speak his mind like a free man. What is there to be afraid of? He’s not writing a Catechism. He’s having a conversation with some italian shlo who runs the local paper supported by the usual vendors of crap like cell phones and cosmetics. People, get a grip!

    Fr. Z's Gold Star Award

  34. lana says:

    Written in 1860, with Imprimatur:

    As it is with the countries of the world, so it is with the ages of the world. Each age has its own distinctive spirit. It has its own proper virtues, and its own proper vices. ..Each requires to be dealt with in that way. This is the reason why the Church seems to act differently in different ages. There is a sense in which the Church goes along with the world. It is the same sense in which the shepherd leaves the sheep which have not strayed, and goes off in search of the one that has strayed. Each age is a stray sheep from God; and the Church has to seek it and fetch it back to Him, so far as it is allowed to do so. We must not make light of the differences of the ages. Each age needs persuading in a manner of its own. It finds its own difficulties in religion. It has its own peculiar temptations and follies. God’s work is never done in any one age. It has to be begun again in every age. Old methods are found unsuitable, because things have changed. It is on this account that theology puts on new aspects, that religious orders first succeed and then fail, that devotion has fashions and vicissitudes, that art and ritual undergo changes, that discipline is modified… But the Precious Blood adapts itself with changeful uniformity to every age.

    From – The Precious Blood . (p.27-28 – Tan Books) From Fr. _Frederick_ Faber (Books like “All for Jesus”, the hymn “Faith of Our Fathers” and many others)

  35. tufty says:

    So, is everyone just going to completely ignore the obvious?

    The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church made this statement in a secular paper: [And hereafter he quotes the English version, which we have seen is dodgy.]

    “God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us. In the letter I wrote to you, you will remember I said that our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone

    ….Transcendence remains because that light, all in everything, transcends the universe and the species it inhabits at that stage.”

    Are you kidding? Do you really think you can ignore this little gem and pretend it’s the context?
    This is a doctrine of universal salvation and pantheism. [?!?] It is not Catholic Truth and in fact directly contradicts the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. The most basic statements of what you must believe to be a Catholic. [Friend, you are a little out of your element, I think.]

    And ascending into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead; and of His kingdom there shall be no end…And I look for the resurrectiion of the dead. And the life of the world to come. Amen.
    THE NICENE CREED

    He [Jesus] descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe…in the communion of saints…the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
    THE APOSTLES CREED

    [And? This is what makes my days so difficult.]

  36. Gretchen says:

    This notion that Pope Francis is/was speaking personally, privately (whatever) to an individual is simply bunk. He was speaking to a journalist who published the interview. You know, doing what journalists do.

    Please.

  37. lana says:

    LA: “The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in soul of men the feeling/awareness/sense of brotherhood”
    Holy Father, the correct answer is: “The Son of God was incarnate to free man from his sins and to reopen to him the gates of heaven.”

    LA: opening the gates of Heaven is the same thing as baptism, which is becoming adoptive children of the Father, whch is the same thing as brotherhood with Jesus. Brotherhood also implies a Father. It is leading one from a level of common understanding, even if it is not the exact Catechism formula.

  38. LA says:

    lana,
    Reading your reply, I almost distinctly heard a stttttrrrreeeeeeeeeetttcchhing sound.
    The Pope didn’t say “The Son of God was incarnate in order to make man the adopted brother of Jesus.” He said “in order to instill a sense of brotherhood”. Let’s be adults and let’s bravely face what the Pope actually said, and not what we reeeeeaaaaaaaaallllllllllllyyyy, really, really want his words to mean.

  39. jhayes says:

    Rorate Caeli, has published La Repubblica’s English translation of the interview.

    Regarding the translation, they say:

    “Note: the translation below, provided by La Repubblica, has its problems – but it does not change the overall meaning of the Italian original. It is fruitless to “blame” the translation.”

  40. lana says:

    Hi LA, You are funny. I don’t have a problem with what he actually said. I think he is explaining to an atheist from a level he can understand. The more I have been reading from Pope Francis, even as Cardinal, I have seen him do this a lot. Perhaps he is showing us how to dialogue?

  41. Lavrans says:

    I’m mighty tired of this. But I suppose since he envisions the Church as a field hospital, he has one in the United States now. Eight years of rebuilding our fort only to have a bomb detonate within it and level it. *Sigh* I guess I gotta hand it to Cardinal Mahoney. He got his man. If anyone needs me, I’ll be brushing up on my Marty Haugen and liturgical dance. Gotta impress our liberal overlords.

    The dark night of Catholics. Evil has its hour…

  42. lana says:

    LA : Or to plagiarize Patrick K from earlier:

    Pope Francis mentions St. Paul, and may have had in mind these sorts of ideas from 1 Corinthians: “To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some,” and “I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”

  43. Lavarns, LOL!, when he was gloating after the election of Pope Francis, I knew this wouldn’t be a good thing. God help us all. Kryie eleison

  44. WhollyRoaminCatholic says:

    OH HOW FRUSTRATING. I mean, really.

    Please, Your Holiness. Please stop doing interviews for a while. It is not going well.

  45. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    tufty,
    I have not looked at the Italian (yet), but following on from the quotation/paraphrase from St. John 1:6, “a spark of divine light is within each of us” probably echos verse 9: “Erat lux vera, quae illuminat omnem hominem venientem in hunc mundum.” (He may even be thinking of what St. Maximus the Confessor says of the logikoi, as well.) With all sorts of gnostic ‘spark of the divine’ imagery around, this would probably better have been explained more thoroughly at once, but that is a distinct point.

    “He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead” and “our species will end” as mere earthly species “but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone” which is Judgement, and far from enjoyable to any who insistently reject Him. Echoing St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:28 (“ut sit Deus omnia in omnibus’), among other things, is not pantheism (does not God sustain all His creation/creatures always, whatever its/their exact form/state of existence?) or a doctrine of necessary universal salvation.

  46. JabbaPapa says:

    Father –

    concerning : Pope Francis–“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them.”

    Whilst I’m not entirely happy with the personal thoughts of the Pope on this particular topic, will you nevertheless allow me to comment to your readership that our Original Sin is precisely our knowledge of Good and Evil, so that our understanding of these things is intrinsically sinful, so that it is simply a statement of fact that each individual conception of these things will be tainted by sin, error, and division ; so that necessarily, as the Holy Father says, “everyone has his own idea of good and evil“.

  47. stephen c says:

    Since Pope Francis is the sixth pope of my lifetime, and since at my age I like to look at things in perspective, I would point out, for my own benefit if nobody else’s, that he is objectively much, much kinder and compassionate to the old and young who love the traditional rite than Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II were. He has joined in every major local pro-life march of his papacy. Also, a point I have not heard mentioned, he appears to have, either because of good sense or a love for Jews like St Joseph and Mary, fewer anti-Semitic friends than any Pope in my lifetime (although one or two of his group of 8 worries me). Surely that is worth something, even to those poor people who don’t understand why we should care about Jews and their problems. He has, I think, fairly politely and indirectly but also fairly clearly told the pro-choice people (at least those who listen to anything he has to say) that their mistakes come not from a lack of reason but from the devil – harsher, but more compassionate, words than I would have expected from a “liberal” or a stereotypical “Jesuit” (I remember with regret a nearby cardinal here in the US stating that a pro-abort politician was undoubtedly a good man at heart, just mistaken…). I completely agree with the Pope that the greatest evils afflicting the world are youthful unemployment (something I suffered and it was devastating) and the concomitant despair over achieving the great blessing of a prosperous family, and the loneliness of the old (not a problem that affects the old people I have known who have been saved by Jesus and who rejoice in that) – the World is not afflicted by abortion, blasphemy, slander, dangerous and callous sympathy for criminals, laziness and other crimes stemming from a lack of love – because those evils don’t quite as often directly impact us and are harder for the World (not the best of places)to understand, and only if the World *did* understand would it feel afflicted (and, to use precision in our words, if you do not feel afflicted you are not afflicted – you may be harmed, diminished and lessened, but not afflicted – so lets pray for more of this kind of affliction). I also agree that the verb “to proselytize” is nonsensical when used in the first person, singular or plural – it is the Spirit that proselytizes.
    Of course I wish he was a better speaker, and that he demonstrated more passion for the pro-life cause. He is 76, has prayed tens of thousands of hours in his life, and has probably often prayed for better speaking skills, and for more passion for justice; why those prayers do not appear to have been more fully answered is a mystery. I will try to remember to add my meager prayers for these things to his.

  48. Cavaliere says:

    With regards to the Pope’s comments about youth unemployment perhaps he sees in the problem a potential for a greater danger and not simply an economic problem. The number of young people without jobs is staggering around the world. What happens when they continue to despair of a future, begin to lose hope? They become easy targets for the next Hitler, Lennon, Marx, Mao who will promise them the things they are missing, give them hope, a cause etc. That is how those movements begin. Unfortunately he did not fully explain what he meant nor did he give ways that Church teaching could guide and help society to resolve this crisis.

  49. JARay says:

    I’ve just looked at Fr. Ray Blake’s blog. He is the PP in Brighton UK.
    His latest heading is “Pope Francis has just given another interview. Oh dear!”
    Fr. Blake is holding his head in his hands to stop him from shaking it off!!!
    Oh dear !!!!!
    Oh dear !!!!!

  50. Basher says:

    In the voice of Vizzini, from the Princess Bride:

    “You’ve explained the Pope’s comments about homosexuality on the plane, so you are brave.

    And you’ve clarified the Pope’s comments about the Latin Mass, so you’re intelligent.

    And you’ve even made the Pope’s comments about God understandable, so you’re clever.

    But, can you explain his comments about…

    THE JESUITS?”

  51. SpittleFleckedNutty says:

    lana says:
    Here are some words of comfort for those contemplating the ledge. From Fr. _Frederick_ Faber…

    God’s work is never done in any one age. It has to be begun again in every age. Old methods are found unsuitable, because things have changed. It is on this account that theology puts on new aspects, that religious orders first succeed and then fail, that devotion has fashions and vicissitudes, that art and ritual undergo changes, that discipline is modified… But the Precious Blood adapts itself with changeful uniformity to every age.
    From – The Precious Blood . (Written in 1860) (p.27-28 – Tan Books)

    Lana, great pull from Fr. Faber – I don’t think anyone could have found a more pertinent quote. In this light, with regards to Pope Francis, maybe we do all need to chill a bit and see how it plays out. It’s the group that likes to step in when change is afoot and bend that change to their liking that has me very worried. There’s a history of that. I can live with both/and, but not another attempt to sever the past completely.

    By the way, have you checked out archive.org? There is a trove of Fr. Faber’s works there, including Precious Blood.

    Pax Vobiscum!

  52. donato2 says:

    I had been hoping that “l’aborto” had mistakenly been translated as “youth unemployment.”

  53. Phil_NL says:

    As much as I like Andrew Saucci´s comment, that can only be a tongue-in-cheek-solution. Obviously, if reporters cant translate italian properly, they’ll surely do a hatchet job on latin.

    The solution of not giving interviews may be best, but should the Holy Father feel compelled to talk to the media, let him, for the love of all that’s holy, do it in a major language. Italian isn’t one. English, Spanish, French, German, that the media will probably manage (though theologicla concepts in German appear to be an extreme challenge as well). Anything else? Forget it.

    The pope may be bishop of Rome, but his stewardship of the entire Church is more important. Let the vicariate of Rome use Italian if it must, but don’t try to govern a worldwide church in it…

  54. coeyannie says

    ,”Wake me up when all the experts have figured out what the Pope is saying.” I’ll put the coffee pot on and you can join me.Maybe we can stay awake. Consolation: it is Christ’s Church,not the Pope’s.
    No one should head out the door. We had several absolutely notorious popes in the past living immoral lifestyles.Not one iota of doctrine was changed. We’ll be ok and we can always stop in to read Father Z’s blog. He may have to change the title to what did the Pope really mean.Poll says?

  55. Incaelo says:

    For those interested: I am working on a more accurate English translation of the interview. It’s a work in progress, and I definitely intend to use Father Z’s insights about certain specific words in it. You can find it via this link: http://incaelo.wordpress.com/translations/the-pope-to-scalfari-this-is-how-i-will-change-the-church/

  56. Gratias says:

    For reading Pope Francis a good place to start is reading The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church. By Malachi Martin, Simon and Schuster 1987, available at Amazon. Com.

  57. Gratias says:

    Next time we should return to polyglot Popes. Francis would be better understood if he only spoke in Argentinian.

  58. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    If stephen c. is right, perhaps Francis (the seventh pope of my lifetime) is as ‘jesuitical’ as Mr. Rohani, after all! But is he right? Does Italian ‘affligere’ really retain none of the simple sense of ‘injure’, ‘damage’, which Latin ‘afflictare’ has (as when Caesar in his Gallic Wars writes, “onerarias tempestas afflictabat”)? And why should his use of “il mondo” be equivocal, and only truly to be understood in this special sense, here? And does ‘proselitismo’ have none of the breadth of sense of Greek ‘proselutismos’ or ‘proselutos poiein’? What evidence might there be of that? I do not see any in, say, St. Matthew 23;15, “ut faciatis unum proselytum, et cum fuerit factus…”.

    With attention to youth unemployment on the one hand, and St. Francis and his mendacant order on the other hand, the solitude of the elderly on the one, and the stripping away of the mystic’s via negativa on the other, I wonder if he will turn, in the next part of the interview, to explicit discussion of voluntary poverty and elected silence and eremeticism, and the matter of “cum autem senueris, … alius te cinget, et ducet quo tu non vis” (St. John 21:18).

  59. JuliB says:

    @Cavaliere – I do believe that he was talking about it as more than an economic problem, but the solution to it is political, which makes me apprehensive given our social justice brothers and sisters who think they have a monopoly on the answers.

  60. gretta says:

    I must admit my first reaction to hearing Pope Francis describe youth unemployment as one of the primary ills of the world, was “Huh?” But then I got to thinking about it. And while I may get skewered for saying this, he may not be wrong. Because in some ways it may be the root cause for many of the sins of the world we encounter.

    My kids get into the most trouble when they have time on their hands and nothing constructive to do. Then they start finding ways to get into trouble. In moral terms, when young people do not have work to be doing, it creates a whole range of occasions for sin that are not so enticing if they are productively employed.

    When young people do not have jobs, or there are no jobs available (perfect example for today is the situation in Greece) they have lots of time on their hands. So…they hang out. They form gangs that prey on others. They abuse alcohol and drugs, or sell drugs – from which violence often occurs. They behave promiscuously, the behavior results in pregnancy, and abortions result. And they dispair, because they don’t see a way forward or a future. Why finish school if there is no job to be had afterward? They can’t afford to get married because they can’t support a family, so they live together. And this state becomes the norm for the kids born into it. Sometimes the dispair is so great that it even results in suicide. Papa Francis has seen this close up, because of his work with the very poor in Argentina. So when he says that young people need jobs, I think he must be envisioning the range of sins – violence, abortion, drug dealing, promiscuity, gang problems, and dispair, etc. that are not committed when young people have a job.

    So maybe Papa Francis is on to something – you deal with the root cause, and you eliminate the mulititude of occasions for sin that manifest when young people have nothing better to do, and see no future ahead of them. And from my own humble experience of seeing what my own young kids can get up to if they aren’t constructively employed, this isn’t social justice, it is parental common sense.

  61. oldCatholigirl says:

    Thanks to Traductora, terryprest, Andrew, lana (great Father Faber quote), and, of course, Father Z for the mind-enlarging information/perspectives. I’ve been wishing since the 70′s that I could just go along, ignore the parts of the culture and myself I disliked, and take the Church for granted– as I did when I was young– but circumstances just forced me to keep trying to discern what the Prayer/Church/Pope/Bible/Christ Really Said. (And convinced me of the necessity of regular, rather than sporadic, Confession.) Wish I could just relax.:)

  62. mamajen says:

    Well-deserved gold star, Andrew. Just excellent.

  63. at first i was ignoring the media spin on these interviews UNTILI read this:

    “The gravest of the evils that afflict the world in our time are the unemployment of the young and the loneliness in which the elderly are left.”

    The media didn’t spin that-it’s a quote verbatim of Pope Francis.

    Compare that to what Mother Therese said,

    “The poor are very great people. They can teach us so many beautiful things. Once one of them came to thank us for teaching her natural family planning and said: “You people who have practiced chastity, you are the best people to teach us natural family planning because it is nothing more than self-control out of love for each other.” And what this poor person said is very true. These poor people maybe have nothing to eat, maybe they have not a home to live in, but they can still be great people when they are spiritually rich.

    When I pick up a person from the street, hungry, I give him a plate of rice, a piece of bread. But a person who is shut out, who feels unwanted, unloved, terrified, the person who has been thrown out of society – that spiritual poverty is much harder to overcome. And abortion, which often follows from contraception, brings a people to be spiritually poor, and that is the worst poverty and the most difficult to overcome.”

    Or to Pope Benedict,

    ” “A dictatorship of relativism is being formed, one that recognizes nothing as definitive and that has as its measure only the self and its desires.” He warned,
    “the Catholic Church has been “thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertarianism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so on. Every day new sects arise.”

  64. Sonshine135 says:

    @gretta
    I am with you on this. I have witnessed young people without jobs and they turn to escapism to live a life outside of their own. In one example a friend’s older son did not stay in college or employed. He moved away to a girl he met on the Internet. He got her pregnant and they moved back here with his parents. He is still aimless and without a job. He plays video games all day long. A job does give purpose to a man’s existence and instills a sense of ownership ( I am sure there is many Papal writings about work in general).

    Escapism is probably going to be, if it isn’t already, the root sin of our generation. How many people can no longer communicate because their head is buried in an electronic device? Electronics are the Meth and Alcohol of today’s world.

    It is a double whammy: Lack of employment and lack of desire to be employed.

  65. lana says:

    @Nutty – thank you for the Fr Faber link! :)

    @Greta, you are right!

  66. mamajen says:

    Sonshine135:

    Escapism is probably going to be, if it isn’t already, the root sin of our generation. How many people can no longer communicate because their head is buried in an electronic device? Electronics are the Meth and Alcohol of today’s world.

    Absolutely. And not only can’t they communicate with other people, but they impede their ability to hear the Holy Spirit as well. I believe, like Pope Francis (and the Catechism) said, that everyone has the innate ability to determine what is good and evil (in a truthful way, not a relativistic way)…but it becomes a lot harder when you’re drowning out that little voice with things of the world. I know that when I’m particularly stressed about something, it becomes difficult to function, and sometimes I feel so beat down and exhausted that even though I could be doing something productive to work at the problem, I waste my time doing something dumb instead. It’s a struggle.

    What Pope Francis said about joblessness probably sounds counterintuitive to most of us, especially those of us wary of “social justice nonsense”, but if you think about it, there’s a lot of truth to it.

  67. everett says:

    Someone posted this in one of the other threads, but I think this is going to be my default response to criticism of Pope Francis:

    “Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. and if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.” – St. Ignatius of Loyola

  68. SimonR says:

    There have only been three Popes in my lifetime so far and I have the majority of my years reading and observing the two great Popes of recent times, John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

    I am basically ultramontane in my devotion to the Papacy.

    But the pontificate of Pope Francis has been a disaster so far. The role of Peter is to strengthen his brothers in the faith. Pope Francis sows confusion and doubt.

    Pope Francis’ comment ‘I have the humility and the ambition …” is frankly terrifying.

    I am wondering at which point we write off this pontificate and simply baton down the hatches and wait for another one?

    I have heard comments in recent days that Francis may be mentally ill given how bizarre his comments are. That is how far we have come!

    I read in another blog that we should not underestimate the effect this is all having on other orthodox Bishops and Cardinals who will be shaken and upset by the Pope’s recent comments.

    How did it all come to this????

  69. thank you everett. Am going to save the quote. It helps.

  70. Traductora says:

    @oldCatholicgirl; @RafaqRoad – My apologies because my comment was sort of a rabbit hole, I guess, but I was very touched by the experience in the light of what Pope Francis had said. I know the first thought upon reading his interview may be, oh, he’s talking about that meaningless “social justice” stuff again, but he’s not. I think “social justice” talk, either about things within the Church or in society at large, is basically just a way of depersonalizing it, making everything institutional, and pushing it off on the government or, even more vaguely, “economic forces.” But the more I thought about it, the more I saw that what he was saying to this atheist about problems in society at large really relates to us, too, and reflects some of the problems we in the Church have. Actually, I think it’s gotten worse as Catholics have gotten more and more into the “social justice” mentality and forgotten the personal piety to which the Pope keeps urging us. In the case of Catholics, we can have all the correct doctrine in the world and we can even have a well-run and impeccably organized institutional Church and still blithely pass over the basics, not out of hypocrisy but because we don’t even notice. Maybe he’s trying to get us to notice these things again – if so, I’d say it’s working! In my case, at least, it’s made me really think about and reexamine just the day to day, so to speak, in a way that has been very beneficial.

  71. jhayes says:

    At yesterday’s Mass concelebrated with the Council of Cardinals, Francis referenced Benedict in explaining why proselytizing isn’t effective.

    “The Church, Benedict XVI told us, does not grow through proselytism, it grows through attraction, through witness. And when the people see this witness of humility, of meekness, of mildness, they feel the need that the Prophet Zachariah spoke of: ‘We want to come with you.’ The people feel that need in the face of the witness of charity, of this humble charity, without bullying, not sufficient, humble. Worship and serve!”

    “Charity is simple: worship God and serve others! And this witness,” the Pope said, makes the Church grown.”

    http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/01/pope_concelebrates_mass_with_council_of_cardinals/en1-733309

  72. robtbrown says:

    Jabbapapa says,

    Whilst I’m not entirely happy with the personal thoughts of the Pope on this particular topic, will you nevertheless allow me to comment to your readership that our Original Sin is precisely our knowledge of Good and Evil so that our understanding of these things is intrinsically sinful, so that it is simply a statement of fact that each individual conception of these things will be tainted by sin, error, and division ; so that necessarily, as the Holy Father says, “everyone has his own idea of good and evil“.

    Disagree Original Sin has two components: The penalty (poena) which is death, and the guilt (culpa). In various ways, concupiscence, which darkens the intellect, participates in both.

    St Thomas maintains that even in the state of OS man can know the natural law, thus his endorsement of the rights of conscience. On the other hand, if what you say is true, that our conscience is inevitably tainted, then an obligation to follow it makes no sense.

    We are obligated morally to follow our conscience, but the distinction has to be made between vincible and invincible knowledge. Thus, we wouldn’t be culpable for following an erroneous conscience, but we would be culpable if its error is a matter of vincible ignorance.

  73. Pingback: La Repubblica Pope Francis Interview - BigPulpit.com

  74. jhayes says:

    I was puzzled by “not sufficient” in the English version in my 10:32 post. Now that I have found the original Italian, I see that it was intended to translate “non sufficiente”, which, here, would be better translated as “not self-important” or “not conceited” [Right! It can mean "haughty", which isn't nearly as common a meaning.]

    The Italian text is here

    http://www.news.va/it/news/il-papa-a-santa-marta-con-i-cardinali-consultori-i?fromt=yes

  75. inexcels says:

    Sonshine135 said: A job does give purpose to a man’s existence and instills a sense of ownership

    As one of the young lucky(?) enough to be employed, I’d have to say that a job actually instills the polar opposite of purpose and ownership. Pointless, disconnected tedium is more like it. Employment is a necessity in order to survive, but giving a sense of purpose….? Mileage varies on that.

    On the other hand, I’ll grant that unemployment is a contributing factor to immoral behavior among some youth (idle hands are the devil’s workshop and all that), and “let he who will not work, not eat,” etc., so higher employment rates for the young would not be a bad thing… but there’s no need to romanticize it.

  76. BLB Oregon says:

    And to think that Cardinal Bergoglio used to resist giving interviews. I can’t imagine why! I would not be at all surprised if he made them a rare thing again, particularly when his readers won’t be reading his comments in their original Spanish.

  77. slainewe says:

    Unemployment is no excuse for the sin of sloth. Opportunities for work surround us in our homes, churches, schools, and communities. To sponge off family or taxpayers and contribute nothing is a serious sin against charity. And I have never known an active volunteer who could not find a paying job. People trust givers.

  78. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    Fr. Z,
    Would you consider a post on ‘proselytism’ and the – possible? probable? – sense of the Pope’s use of the term? And where, and how, exactly “Benedict XVI [is supposed to have] told us”, “The Church [...] does not grow through proselytism”?

    I find Pope Francis’s recent uses of the term bewildering and disheartening.

    In discussing the Scalfari interview, Jimmy Akin (in the post Diane at Te Deum Laudamus links above) says, ” in recent decades a new, technical meaning for ‘proselytization’ has emerged in ecclesiastical circles” and refers (giving a link) to “the 2007 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith titled Instruction on Some Aspects of Evangelization”, quoting where it speaks of “proselytism in the negative sense that has been attributed to this term” and further from footnote 49. This footnote seems rapidly to go from saying “the term proselytism was often used as a synonym for missionary activity”, with an ominous use of the past tense, and noting “More recently, however, the term has taken on a negative connotation”, to ending by saying, “It is in this sense that the term proselytism is understood in the context of the ecumenical movement: cf. The Joint Working Group between the Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches, ‘The Challenge of Proselytism and the Calling to Common Witness’ (1995).” Lavada Amatoque locuta, causa finita?

    Is this “Doctrinal Note” approved by Benedict XVI on 6 October six years ago what (or one of the things) he “has told us”?

    It seems bizarre that this abusive hijacking of the term – what is admittedly only “proselytism in the negative sense” – should be (as it seems) so supinely elevated to ‘the’ sense, to what Mr. Akin calls “a new, technical meaning”. Is this indeed what has happened? Has the whole Hierarchy including the last two Popes swallowed a usage of a “Joint Working Group” in 1995?

    And if so, what is to be done?

  79. Bea says:

    Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza….

    The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in soul of men the feeling of brotherhood.

    @Suburbanbanshee and @Stumbler but trying
    I too am fluent in Spanish. It seems the word he (the pope) must have been aiming for is the one you mentioned Suburbanbanshee: SENTIDO, rather than Sentimiento.
    “Sentido de hermandad”
    “Sense of Brotherhood”
    Like “sentido comun” = common sense
    or “hombre de juicio/hombre de sentido)” = a man of good judgement/man of sense(sensible man).

    Whatever it was he meant my understanding is that:

    The Son of God became man to Redeem us from sin.
    Of course in that redemption we become brothers (and sisters=can’t forget the CWR here) in Christ.

    ======================
    As to:

    Ciascuno ha una sua idea del Bene e del Male e deve scegliere di seguire il Bene e combattere il Male come lui li concepisce….

    Each person has his idea of Good and of Evil and he must choose to follow Good and combat Evil as he perceives / understands them…

    You’re right Fr. Z.
    in Spanish it if VERY common to use the word “conceive”to mean “perceive” (or understood)
    No puedo concebir porque me dices que “No” = I can’t understand why you tell me “No”
    “Cada quien tiene su idea del Bien y del Mal y debe combatir el Mal segun el lo concibe”

    It makes more sense in both instances in using a Spanish Translation directly from the Italian.
    I think I’ll try to find a Spanish translation to the “Big Interview”

  80. JabbaPapa says:

    robtbrown — I was hardly attempting to provide a full theology of Original Sin !!! ; and FWIW I could just as well waste half an hour picking holes into your own very partial and somewhat flawed presentation of the same. Which would be a pointless waste of time. Besides, Father Z would do the same far more competently if he had a mind to do so.

    I was, more “humbly” (to use a Francis-ism), simply trying to shed some light on a comment that could easily be mistaken as relativist rather than orthodox.

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