On that sobering note…..

In a comment on one of the various entries about a possible "Tridentine" Liberation Day (TLD) frequent reader "Jon" wrote (in case you missed it):

Personally, I pray the Holy Father publishes it before what I consider to be an ill-advised trip to Turkey.



On that sobering note…..

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  2. Jeffrey Stuart says:

    I’m not worried. Papa knows what he is doing. He is tough, resolute and our Lord is certainly watching over him. A few Rosaries on his behalf wouldn’t hurt.


  3. Jeffrey: What you wrote calls to mind that the SSPX called for a world-wide project of a Spiritual Bouquet for Pope Benedict, unless my memory is faulty.

  4. Father: Your memory is not faulty, back in July, Bishop Fellay announced his
    desire to present the Holy Father with a spritual bouquet of one million
    rosaries by the end of October. These were their intentions (note,
    in particular,#1)

    1. To obtain from Heaven for Pope Benedict XVI the strength required to
    completely free up the Mass of all time, called the Tridentine Mass.

    2. For the return of the Social Kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    3. For the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

  5. Jon says:


    I wish something brighter had rated me the honor of my own Z-post, but I’m afraid I had to voice what I consider a very legitimate fear.

    Sadly, this new talk in the Italian press of delaying the document until December gave me chills, and not because of the weather.

    Btw, Jeffrey, my own morning rosary was offered on Benedict’s behalf, as it has been every day since the death of John Paul. Keep it going.

  6. Jeffrey Stuart says:

    Well SSPX can be right about some things of course. However, I wasn’t too keen on the wording of their first petition. The “obtain from Heaven for Pope Benedict XVI the strength required” part came off a bit condescending at least in my mind. Nevertheless, I’m sure Papa is happy to have the prayers from all. I only wish that I could do more and perhaps transfer from the Navy to the Swiss Guard. ;)


  7. Bill White says:

    Dear Father Zuhlsdorf,

    With the Pope’s motu proprio looking like a done deal, what are your thoughts on the use of the pre-1970 calendar with the Tridentine Mass? I’ve never assisted at a Tridentine Mass, but it seems that using the old calendar would make this something of an archaeological affair. Would it even be possible to use the new calendar? Would it be desirable?

    Thanks for your thoughts,

    Bill White

  8. Bill White: If I am not mistaken, the Pont. Comm. “Ecclesia Dei” made provisions/guidelines for the use of the new calendar as well as the new Lectionary with the older form of Mass. Personally, I would very much like to see the calendars cooridinated so that we are all on the same page. I would like to have use of the texts for new saints with the older book and not have to resort to the Commons. Some of the newer prefaces would be good too. This would be a major problem for those who want to use the older Roman Breviary, but redoing a Missale could be accomplished relatively easily.

  9. Henry Edwards says:

    Bill: Father Z would certainly know more about these possibilities than I do. But I believe, like most Catholics I know who value the old Mass — that the old calendar is one of the most distinctive features of the old rite. When following the propers and readings of the 1962 missal daily — as I do privately, even though I also attend the new Mass daily — one is immersed in the sanctoral and seasonal cycles of the Church in a manner that exposure solely to the new Mass and calendar can only barely suggest.

    One reason is that the prayers and readings of the old Mass are so richly integrated with the liturgical calendar. Whereas, for instance, in the new missal the two-year cycle of daily readings mostly seems largely uncoordinated with the calendar (in any sanctoral or seasonal way); usually (especially in ordinary time) one is just plowing day by day through an appointed sequence of chapters in a selected book of the Bible, with each day’s readings connected sequentially with the preceding and succeeding days’ readings, but not liturgically with the day itself.

    This is not to say that (as Father Z suggests) some of the beautiful new prefaces as well as the propers and texts for some more recent saints could not be inserted into the old Mass without affecting its fabric. Indeed, I note along these lines that in his section discussing “The Future of the Missal of Saint Pius V” in the Fontgombault conference proceedings, Cardinal Ratzinger seemed to rule out any immediate moves other than precisely these possibilities of (1) adding to the traditional calendar some of the newer saints, and (2) using also some of the new Prefaces from the new missal.

  10. Jon says:


    In light of Henry’s final sentence, I’ve read recently in several places that the Holy Father has requested “the Benedictines” to rework the ’62 Missal, presumably incorporating the two points Henry mentions. Have you heard anything similar?

  11. ignorant redneck says:

    I fear that when His Holiness goes to Turkey, there will be a martyr pope.

    If he signs the Moto Proprio, befor he goes, then how will the dheretics in vestments oppose it?

    Benedict is perhaps the smartest pope we have ever had, and one of the wisest. I think he’s doing this on purpose to further the reform of the renewal.

    If he doesn’t get killed first, I actually expect him to unilaterally declare the Orthodox churches in sacremental communion with rome, to strengthen them against the satanicly inspired psuedo-prophecies of Muhammed, the accused false prophet and murder of churches.

  12. Anonymous says:

    Is it coincidence that this document was not published before Cardinal Sodano’s retirement?

  13. Woody Jones says:

    I share Jon’s concern and wish he would not go.

  14. Jordan Potter says:

    “If he doesn’t get killed first, I actually expect him to unilaterally declare the Orthodox churches in sacremental communion with rome, to strengthen them against the satanicly inspired psuedo-prophecies of Muhammed, the accused false prophet and murder of churches.”

    Impossible. Read his Wednesday audience this week on Sts. Simon and Jude. He has always insisted that dialogue and reconciliation must honestly confront doctrinal differences, and we have not yet resolved our doctrinal differences with the Orthodox Churches.

  15. Marcin says:

    “If he doesn’t get killed first, I actually expect him to unilaterally declare the Orthodox churches in sacremental communion with rome, to strengthen them”

    Impossible, I agree. Not only because of Pope’s awareness of doctrinal differences. Orthodox would not accept such a move, because they are also aware of those, as much as they would like to have Rome in an Orthodox camp (an this with all the honor of the ancient Roman See). Also, because of de-centralized ecclesiology they don’t have a coherent position on us – are we heretics, heterodox or just schismatics? Undiscerning acceptance of Papal unity would break their communion. Especially that it would be like a re-enactment of the communion agreed upon at the Council of Florence (under the mortal threat of Mohammedans).

    Plus all that stuff about the Crusade and sack of Constantinople – for the Greeks it really happened yesterday. Most of the Athonite monks can’t spell the name “Francs” (horribile dictu). In all the fairness there were and are many holy men in those monasteries. There are relics of uncorrupted bodies there, too. Yet, I have read a story that the Athonites can produce uncorrupted bodies of three monks who concelebrated with the Francs during a short period of Catholic Constantinople. How is that possible? They allegedly _stink_.

    Here are links to two sober articles by Fr. Thomas Hopko (Orthodox). He doesn’t give slack either side:

    Roman Presidency and Christian Unity in our Time

    What would the Orthodox have to do to have unity?

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