Crossed stole v. crossed-up Catholic – or – Fr. Ted and “The Talky Woman”

Here is an interesting video.

Protesters confront Fr. Ted Martin with a huge rally (about four people) in front of St. Augustine Cathedral (Kalamazoo, Michigan) on June 10, 2012.

Here is an a-typical protester who has facts (wrong), issues (conflated), and the talking points of the Fishwrap.  This is, in short, a community organizer.

BTW… they don’t like actual references to Second Vatican Council the need to make distinctions.  Memorize your paragraphs, even though they will – in the name of the Spirit of the Council – accuse you of being like a fundamentalist when you cite paragraphs.

The protester wasn’t unprepared, but she was reeeeeeeally confused.

I think the priest did a good job in the face of the buzz words and talking points and Alinksy tactics.

I have a homework project for you all:

In the combox, note down the protesters talking points and buzz words, especially with reference to the “Spirit of Vatican II”.

Note also that the community organizer, who keeps up the steady stream of talking points, doesn’t actually belong to a parish.  She is in a “home church”.  Anyone wanna guess who runs it?


Fathers, get ready for some people to confront you with a camera.


Following a link from a reader in the combox, below, we find more about the one Supertradmom called “the talky woman“.

Kim Franke is a former Mercy sister (Buffalo, NY) of 11 years with two theology degrees, including a master’s degree from Notre Dame where she studied with noted theologians [Richard McBrien!] and then taught theology at the collegiate level. Although “Catholic to the core” and unwilling to give up on the Church, [Isn’t she special?] her love-hate relationship with the institution makes it too difficult for her to attend Mass since women are not fully incorporated into the liturgy or ministry. Instead, she is part of a “home church” with a dozen friends who meet weekly, share homilies on the readings and support and participate in various local ministries.

In other words, she isn’t really practicing her Catholic faith anymore.


A priest friend who knows Fr. Martin wrote this to me by email:

They were protesting at the Cathedral because of an article he wrote and he came out and they asked him to sign their little petition with words of thanks to nuns, so he did: Thank you Mother Assumpta for your obedience to the Magisterium, and on like that with a half dozen nuns names.

Fantastic.  I am starting to like this guy more and more.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. doozer125 says:

    Fr. Ted is the man!

  2. pberginjr says:

    Done very charitably without yielding points. It’s always interesting to see/hear folks change the subject and then accuse you of changing the subject when you respond to their change. I saw that he is working on a JCL (presumably why he’ll be the next 2 years?) Good luck and many blessings to him!

  3. One of those TNCs says:

    Fr. Tim was the epitome of charity for about 16 minutes longer than I could have been.

    I can’t take up your “homework” challenge, Fr. Z; there’s no way to address the zigs and zags of this woman’s “logic” in 200 words or fewer.

    It’s hard to have a discussion (as she constantly demanded) with someone who (1) won’t listen to you and who (2) won’t stop talking long enough for you to complete a sentence. I’d need my own source of oxygen if I tried to talk to her.

    Please pray for the people she taught when she taught [somebody’s] religion.

    Kudos to Fr. Tim for asking the crucial question (paraphrased): Was Jesus lying when He said, “I Am the Way and the Truth and the Light”? Boy, did she have trouble with that one.

  4. wanda says:

    I haven’t been praying enough for our priests, I will step it up! Fr. Tim, you did amazingly well. How disgusting of these women to ambush him with camera rolling. They were out for a gotcha confrontation. It didn’t go as well as they had planned. God bless you, Fr. Tim.

  5. yatzer says:

    I am amazed at the patience and good nature of this man, not to mention his knowledge! One of the things that made me gag was the idea that beautiful churches are somehow a bad thing. Ours is gorgeous and it was built brick by brick and penny after penny by poor immigrants a hundred years ago. It was their gift to God and their place of refreshment.
    She had no facts, just bounced around beating the drumbeat about the abuse scandal, making it worse than it actually was, ignoring the worse situation in the culture that she is saying is what we should be following. If she has such a great background and is an advocate, she is a very poor one when her response to facts is basically “You’re a big bad priest and I’m just a little lady.” Then there was that appalling response to the Lord being the way, truth, and life. I don’t know how the guy stood it.

  6. Scott W. says:

    She is in a “home church”. Anyone wanna guess who runs it?

    Huh? Wha?

    [Listen closely just after 18:00.]

  7. Arguing with a feminist is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you realize that the pig actually enjoys it

    Here are their :

    “bringing social justice”
    “remove the splinter from your own eye” (red herring)
    “I’m sure you have it in Latin”
    “primacy of conscience”
    “best of psychology, the modern world, science . . . reveal to us . . . from the spirit”
    “the natural world . . . divine DNA”
    “gold vessels and not glass vessels”
    “leadership of the spirit”
    “the whole spirit of vatican 2”
    “collaboration . . . ”
    “the spirit of vatican 2”
    “don’t have to go to mass every sunday . . . have to feed the hungry . . . ”

    I have to deal with people like this as well in my line of work in government and their pride coupled with ignorance of actual facts is absolutely intolerable. It’s “do what I demand” – not ‘do what’s right’ or ‘do what’s true, just, holy in accordance with God’s holy will’ , but rather “do what I demand – however ridiculous it is – the more ridiculous my demands get implemented the better because it means I’ve gotten MY way and not God’s way.”

  8. Absit beat me to the list. Watching that was horrifying, she is Catholic in no way, shape or form. Simply put, how can one believe Catholicism is true when the person does not believe there is such a thing as truth? That’s the basic error at the heart of it all. You can’t hope to convince someone of anything when they are not acknowledging the Logos of Truth independent of the human mind to which we may appeal in debate.

  9. Joe in Canada says:

    I thought “home-churchers” were sedevacantists who thought that there were no real priests in the world any more. She does have her shoulders covered….

  10. Cath says:

    Fr. Martin was calm and quite a gentleman throughout the 18 minutes. I love when he asked her if she thought morality is determined by numbers. Do people who think it is determined by numbers ever follow that thought to its logical end? It is very edifying knowing that there are young, holy priests out there. We need them.

    She was rather rude to him about her two theology degrees and the fact she taught religion and college, when he asked her to prepare so they could discuss it (after she admitted she didn’t know the documents, but knew the spirit of them). I think the fact she taught and has two theology degrees and is still so misguided in the Faith proves that somewhere along the line something went very wrong. And maybe the LCWR has something to do with that. And maybe that is why Holy Mother Church saying enough.

  11. Oh, she also hinted that the Pope is a heretic and a schismatic, and declared that believing the Pope and Bishops are the successors of the Apostles and that they teach with Christ’s authority is a sectarian belief that is not Universally binding on all Catholics. Missed those two lovelies ;)

  12. Captain Peabody says:

    The thing is, though, it’s not really, and it never has been about the Council itself in terms of the actual content and meaning of the documents. From the point of view of a progressivist, those are already part of the past, and we’ve moved beyond them. What it’s about is the Council *as an event*, as something that happened and was momentous and exciting and broke with the past and pointed towards the future, so that we all have to be true to that event by continuing to move in the direction it pointed towards. The only way in which the Council documents are interesting for such a person is insomuch as they represent movements away from the past and towards something else; that is, Lumen Gentium is only notable inasmuch as its dogma of collegiality represented an “advance” on Vatican I’s emphasis on the papacy, and the way in which we show our fealty to it is not to simply read the document *literally* and accept everything it says, including all those regrettable things about the Bishop’s status as successors of the Apostles and the Petrine Headship of the Pope and the visibility of the Church. Thus, being obedient to it means continuing its work by applying its doctrine of collegiality *ever more broadly*, to encompass not just the Bishops and the Pope, but all Christians…and maybe even beyond! And if that seems to contradict what Vatican II actually teaches, well…the thing is, what you’re talking about isn’t really Vatican II. Vatican II was an event, and thus has to be contextualized within its own context; within that context, what it *really* was is a dramatic and epoch-making break with the past, pointing the way to a brave new future! Sure, it’s got some stuff in it that is regrettably “of its time,” and the silly literalists and fundamentalists can quote it all they want; but see what direction it pointed in! To fail to move beyond the literal words of Vatican II would be to ignore what Vatican II *really was*! It’s progress, comrades! It’s inevitable! The future belongs to ME!

    In other words, it’s just the classic “Historicist” or Progressive ideology warmed over once again.

    In other news, I’m very impressed by this priest; it’s very difficult to talk to someone like this without getting flustered or angry or coming off as insensitive, and he navigates it very well and very charitably. Good show!

  13. cblanch says:

    God bless that young priest! While the organizer was droning on with her nonsense, I could distinctly hear a faint ” tick tock”, as the biological solution draws ever more near.

  14. TZ says:

    I had to quit watching at the three minute mark–felt like purgatory!

  15. List all their buzzwords? Passim.

    I notice they have a problem with the “outsiders” in the Vatican investigating the Magisterium of Nuns, but they don’t have a problem with the idea of outsiders from the secular authorities putting Bishop Finn under a microscope over how he handled a perverted priest. Nor do I hear them complaining about outsiders in the federal government trying to force Catholics to violate Catholic teaching.

    Nor do they have a problem denying the primacy of Peter, a doctrine for which St. Thomas More and St. John Fisher, whose feast is Friday, poured out their life’s blood. Heretical harpies.

  16. Fr. Tim was the epitome of charity for about 16 minutes longer than I could have been.

    Want your mind to be blown? This is Part II.

  17. Fr. Ted vs. Incoherence: A Summary.

    “I’m not as prepared as you are,” said the woman camped out in front of a cathedral looking for a fight, just after she started quoting scripture at a priest. As he was about to respond, she interrupted: “You have all the passages, like a fundamentalist Christian who can always find something to say.”

  18. RLeon says:

    I like how she touts her educational credentials and then keeps saying she is not prepared.

  19. biberin says:

    Wow. Did she ever permit him to complete a sentence? I can’t believe he put up with brazen rudeness for so long, without ever snapping back. I, too, am saddened to learn that one who sees herself as having such teaching authority and degrees and years of experience would not believe in truth nor the primacy and authority of the Pope and bishops. Every point she made he countered more thoroughly, and she accused him of being like a fundamentalist. I’m still blown away that one person could be so disrespectful to another, not to mention that she was not embarrassed to have it on video!

  20. Marie S. says:

    What a great example of the future of the church in Fr. Tim, and the soon-to-be-past in the protesters. The sad thing is most of them seemed to think they were faithful Catholics, in the mold of St. Catherine of Sienna speaking truth to power or some such.

    I started to write down all the things to ridicule in what she said, but Fr. Tim has inspired me to refrain in charity.

    Blessed Mother Teresa, pray for us, and pray for these poor confused people.

  21. Clinton R. says:

    Kudos to Fr. Martin. It is nice to see a young priest with great knowledge of the Faith. He adroitly countered the loon’s arguments with facts. Gee, no fair when you use facts. Why let facts get in the way of the “spirit” of Vatican II? I guess this “lady” and her thousands, uh hundreds? (Nope), dozens? (Nope), actually singles of her followers would not be satisfied unless Father Martin told her he would now offer a ecumenical service that gave equal dignity to protestanism, buddhism, islam, hinduism, unitarianism, wicca and the like.

  22. Lori Pieper says:


    Do you think she was was maybe beginning to realize toward the end how foolish she sounded?

    Neither do I.

    Maybe if someone where to have time enough and patience enough, it would be possible to get through all the self-righteous sanctimony as well as the erroneous ideas that she clings to no matter how often her arguments are defeated. What really killed me was how she started calling Father a “fundamentalist” just because he was better prepared than her and had something to say!

    God bless Fr. Ted. He is savvy, insightful, charitable and can cite Vatican II chapter and verse! I’d love to hear one of his homilies. I’ll bet he’s a great preacher.

  23. Cath says:

    Wouldn’t they realize how poorly their argument went and not release the video? If they were trying to make a video to make this wonderful priest look bad, it obviously backfired. I guess Lori is right and she never figured out how foolish she sounded.

    What exactly is the “Spirit of Vatican II?” Any time I hear that, I cringe. What usually comes next is some type of I will do what I want when I want because I am an educated, enlightened individual who decides by my conscience (malformed or not) what is moral or true.

  24. Burke says:

    Fr Martin is fantastic. He stayed calm & focused throughout. I didn’t find the segment annoying in the least … in fact I had a huge grin on my face all the way through – in fact, I’m still smiling. It was like watching a kindly old hound dog being attacked by a puppy!

    Best of all, the ‘activist’ really showed what her ilk are like. Has she read any of the documents she was trying to claim as supporting her view? It didn’t sound like it. But Father had & was able to quote them at her. She door-stepped him with a camera & then acts like he’s not playing fair by being more prepared than her when she was the one who picked the moment! Why wasn’t she prepared? She claims two theology degrees & teaching experience … what was she reading during that time? Sounds like she spent two much time on stuff like ‘Gaia & God: an Ecofeminist Theology of earth Healing’ (no, I’m not making that up – google it, it’s by Rosemary Radford Ruether) and not enough on the core texts of her discipline.

    But well done, Father Martin … maybe when you get back in two years she’ll be ready to have an informed discussion … but I doubt it!

  25. Supertradmum says:

    Patience is from God.

    Why is there so much hatred against “the Vatican”? I think it all has to do contraception and abortion. I would like to ask as a woman if these women agree with Humanae Vitae. I can imagine the reaction.

  26. Supertradmum says:

    By the way, what is “divine DNA”? I would like enlightenment here.

  27. Grabski says:

    Do you have leather seats in your car?

    Well, in one but not the other.

  28. Supertradmum says:

    Sorry, I have been interrupted. The talky woman should read APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM.

  29. Ellen says:

    Sigh. I am about the same age as these protesters, but happily I saw through their silliness YEARS ago.

    Father, on behalf of all getting to be elderly Catholic women, I apologize for my actions of the sillier members of my sex (I refuse to say gender).

  30. Ann Roth says:

    Here is part 1:

    gag me. The “protesters” sing “Be Not Afraid”. Yes, they should be very afraid. I am torn between sadness and a little anger over the things they say and the damage these people do to others.

    I guess prayer is the answer. And lots of it.

  31. Kerry says:

    On the second attempt, I almost made it past “So..we feel that…you know…” Anger, sadness, frustration, joy and elation are feelings, but “that…you know” is, I feel, you know….a whiskey tango foxtrot.

  32. Kyle says:

    “That’s probably where you and I disagree a little – I don’t think there is ‘a truth.'”

    Had Fr Martin mentioned that relativism is a heresy, I believe her head would have exploded.

  33. TopSully says:

    I’m guessing that the cameraman is the same Olga listed in the closing credits. So I’m also guessing that she is the one who posted this on YouTube. Which leads me to believe she doesn’t realize how silly this “confrontation” looks. Or maybe they are so blind as to think this somehow helps their cause?

  34. PA mom says:

    What would be very helpful is if this priest (really, if many priests) would take the talking points from this and insert them into sermons over the next several months. Teach as many faithful as possible how to respond to this stuff in simple terms, and pull out weeds in their hearts at the same time. All of us have some thoughts like these (not exactly, but mistaken ones) burrowed in us, put there by bad teaching, the media or other former Catholics.

  35. Fr. Erik Richtsteig says:

    Behold the power of good formation, fidelity, patience, and the stole properly worn!

    I don’t think I would have lasted 2 minutes with these gals.

  36. acardnal says:

    I wonder if God was intervening at times with the church bells, motorcycle and train whistle.

  37. Frances M says:

    She keeps speaking about “the spirit”, not “the Holy Spirit”, so manifests the typical New Age mindset where all are there own little gods. No wonder, then, that she belongs to a home church where mirrors are de rigeuer.

  38. LisaP. says:

    This priest was amazing.

    What I found most incredible was that he asked questions, then listened to the answers. Genuinely. And still entirely prevailed. I saw no animosity at all in his demeanor towards her, I would have seen her as an assailant but he clearly still sees her as a person. He’s amazing.

    Listing the talking points is, however, beyond me — there was nothing but talking points. I remember once in college standing next to a man who must have been schizophrenic. The banter of this talking to himself made it sound like he was listening to someone talking on the radio, but if you focused in, the words made no sense, they were random phrases strung together but spoken in a way that made them sound like sentences. This reminds me of that.

  39. acardnal says:

    and “Grabski” who insightfully noted above Father, “Do you have leather seats in your car?” Protester, “Well, in ONE but not the OTHER .”

    The conclusions are obvious from that remark.

  40. Marlon says:

    Father Ted is a model of how to respond to people like this; he is patient, persistent, good-humored, and kind. His insistence on definition of terms (“What do you mean by religious freedom?” “What do you mean by conscience?”) is a wonderful example of how to engage people like this. Even if you do not convince them, you do have a chance with people who are willing to listen and hear the truth.

    For more information on the protestors, you can go to the website below. I’ve included the information on Kim Franke, who I believe is the one confronting Father Ted in this video. How one can be called “Catholic to the core” and not attend Mass is beyond me.

    Kim Franke is a former Mercy sister (Buffalo, NY) of 11 years with two theology degrees, including a master’s degree from Notre Dame where she studied with noted theologians and then taught theology at the collegiate level. Although “Catholic to the core” and unwilling to give up on the Church, her love-hate relationship with the institution makes it too difficult for her to attend Mass since women are not fully incorporated into the liturgy or ministry. Instead, she is part of a “home church” with a dozen friends who meet weekly, share homilies on the readings and support and participate in various local ministries.

  41. irishgirl says:

    I’m not feeling very happy right now, and I would probably feel even worse if I watched this….and maybe even a little angry!
    Not at the priest, of course, but at the ‘heretical harpy’ [good one, Miss Anita Moore!] who was trying to bait him.
    I notice that she’s got gray hair…probably of my age…so her time is getting closer to the end…thank God….
    @ Fr. Erik: Yeah, I bet would beat ‘those gals’ at their own game! And I wanna be a fly on the wall when you do!

  42. irishgirl says:

    Whoops-I forgot to add an important word to that last sentence: ‘Yeah, I bet YOU [Fr. Erik] would beat ‘those gals’ at their own game’!
    Sigh….another case of ‘fingers being behind of brain’….should ‘preview’ before ‘posting’!

  43. Jamin says:

    I am happy to know Fr. Ted Martin. He is kind and gentle with a vast knowledge of the faith, a love for the Church and for the souls of all he comes in contact with. It was wonderful to see him use God’s gifts so well. Please continue to pray for him and for all the priests! Also, we need to fast for those who have felt belittled and hurt by the Church, that they might be reconciled and brought into Christ’s kingdom.

  44. disco says:

    I am not familiar with any of the documents of Vatican II but I know the spirit and I have two theology degrees.

    Are those degrees written in crayon? God bless this priest I would have flipped out on this lady.

  45. Subdeacon Joseph says:

    I would not be surprised if her chapel had a priestess. As the venerable Monsignor Dutko once told me: “You are pregnant, or you’re not. You are Catholic, or you’re not.” She should do her lack of conscience a favor and go Episcopalian. I do not mean to be uncharitable, but if you do not believe in what the Church teaches you should leave. +Benedict has said the Church will decrease in numbers, but it will become more faithful to dogma and morals in this decrease.

  46. Blue Henn says:

    What I thought was the most scary part of her dialogue, was at the end when she was telling Fr. Ted about how to engage with people who have different views on things. That whole bit about contemplation and prayer and then discussion is just a lot bit unnerving. Yes, all those things are good, but the way she was referencing them seemed to be a distortion of what they should be. Besides, all I can picture is staying at an impasse because no one is going to actually “contemplate” the validity of the opposing points of view, and in the end everyone can say that the “spirit” informed them that theirs was the right position.

    Here’s the website she was referring to: Hit enter if you dare….

  47. Stephen D says:

    Is some evil traditionalist paying this woman to ruin the cause of the dissident nuns and of the whole modernist movement? Couldn’t we have Michael Voris in the next round? Can’t we get her to defend Obamacare on TV? This woman could do so much good with her talent for unerringly aiming the hammer at her own thumb.

  48. St. Epaphras says:

    Simply amazing video. Nothing unusual about the protestors, but the priest…wow. Such charity. Jesus Christ was so evident in him. That degree of genuine charity (contrasted with what passes as “charity” these days) would warm a heart of stone, or at least one would think so. I’m very, very humbled by seeing this.

    God bless and reward his mother, father and every holy priest, lay person, and seminary instructor who influenced him throughout his life.

  49. awkpearl says:

    We LOVE Fr. Martin!

    Would I be harming him if I told you that just after this “interview” we had the great privilege of having Fr. Martin sing the Extraordinary Form Mass for Corpus Christi for us at St. Mary’s in Kalamazoo? I sincerely hope that it took some of the sorrow from his soul to be able to be with us.

    Fr. Martin was his same sweet, kind self when he arrived for Mass. None the less, I promise to never be upset by a priest who arrives out of sorts for Mass. Who knows what kind of devilment they have been dealing with beforehand!!

  50. Moneo92 says:

    Fr. Martin grew up in the same small parish in Michigan that I did. I wasn’t able to attend his first Mass (I live in Chicago now) but there was more Latin used that day than in the last 30 years! Kalamazoo is lucky to have a priest like him.

  51. AnnAsher says:

    Where do I begin? With the buzz words? The first is less than 30 seconds in when she pulls the big bully Vatican inserting themselves where they don’t belong (?!) in directing their own Nuns. Segway to sex scandal. Note: the Vatican wasn’t loud about the investigation or it’s results. Nuns on the Run ( or bus or what have you) are the loud ones. It works to our favor though – even popular culture doesn’t give heed to nagging old ladies. Or I could choose a different angle and highlight how she is formally “educated” yet can’t manage a logical, coherent argument. Hmmm (home school segway). Or I could go with how she begins to speak for “we” then for herself only then back to “we” and she organized the “vigil”, so what does it stand for after all? I’ve not finished watching and this is part 2, wow! I
    would kiss the food Father’s feet!

  52. cregduff says:

    There’s a Part III to this saga!

    Fr. Ted Martin – one of the great, holy young priests. Thanks be to God for the fiat of these men.

  53. Matt R says:

    Quaeritur: Doesn’t the local ordinary have authority over the public activities in the Church of those released from the clerical state and (I would presume) those who are former members of religious institutions?

  54. Supertradmum says:

    Matt R., I have some personal experience to help answer your question. It depends, is the answer. Rome, only, releases those from the clerical state as needed, and some other authorities do as well. Sometimes, the local ordinary usually wants to know merely where the person resides, but it is not necessary, unless there has been a criminal action, such as in the sexual abuses cases. The “laicized” (bad word) priest may go and be anywhere if he has not been in any criminal activity, as he now lives as a lay person. He may not be active in the Church in any ecclesiastical manner. As to monks or nuns, there is no authority over these if they choose to leave their orders; they may work in the Church, for example, as lay persons, and many do so, and not just in the States. If one is no longer living under one’s vows, one is not under the bishop, or the abbot, or other authority. That is what it means to be released from vows. And, please remember that many abbots have just as much authority, if not more so, in certain geographical areas, owing to history.

    I find your question interesting, as you need to understand that not all vows are made to a bishop, either, but to an abbot or another authority in the Church. To be released from one’s clerical state and one’s vows as a nun or monk, means just that-one is de facto to live as a lay person.

  55. Dismas says:

    Watching this video I couldn’t help but be reminded of the Prophecy of Simeon and The Presentation in the Temple. What a magnificent job Fr. Ted did holding up VCII before them and blessing them.

    It endlessly fascinates me how VCII is such a revealing sign of contradiction regarding the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Ghost. Using VCII, one side totally denies His presence in our Church and Magisterium by way of orthodoxy. While the other side, by way of heterdoxy, also totally denies His presence in our Church and Magisterium. Both groups, however, while denying our Church and Magisterium, see themselves as sole possessors and protectors of the Holy Ghost.

    It’s mind blowing for me to consider, properly understood, the power and truth that must be contained and awaits to be unleashed in VCII.

    [34] For the fall: Christ came for the salvation of all men; but here Simeon prophesies what would come to pass, that many through their own willful blindness and obstinacy would not believe in Christ, nor receive his doctrine, which therefore would be ruin to them: but to others a resurrection, by their believing in him, and obeying his commandments.

  56. Denis says:

    These sisters are clueless. They have no idea how unpopular they and their heresies are. The video is quite representative of the current state of the Church: a young, well-informed priest, beseiged by relics of the generation that valued tacky music and architecture, and false doctrines.

    Father Ted: “Do you have leather car seats?”
    Home ‘church’ lady: “Well, yes…”

  57. MBeauregard says:

    Perhaps this has already been discussed, but did the question over obedience ever arise? Regardless of where one stands on this issue, the sisters in question all took vows of obedience – not only to their local superior, but to the Church. The LCWR has always been under the Holy See’s authority. If the LCWR refuses to humble themselves under their authority, will they have the courage to separate the group and become “free agents”?

  58. cornelius74 says:

    This is just amazing, kudos to the Father! That is exactly what is needed when someone comes with the “spirit of Vatican II” brandished high. I really enjoyed his calm and good-hearted responses through out the exchange, even when she practically insulted him couple of times. What a difference such priest makes!

  59. In the video, Fr. Martin said he was going to be leaving, I assume, the Cathedral parish.

    Where did he go? Anyone?

  60. JKnott says:

    What a fine, dear priest. Father Martin stands tall on the Rock of Peter, in pure air, above the fray, radiating the true Peace of Christ, midst a storm of wispy tumbleweeds……”… that the hearts of many may be revealed.”
    This “home” churched protester doesn’t seem to understand the fact that the Vatican actually welcomed the LCRW “officers” to it’s own ‘Tea, Coffee Contemplative Party’ . And all they can do is “protest” irrationally. This video is an embarrassment to the very ones who made it. [It often works that way. Though I suspect that the makers of the video are watching it over and over again, marveling at their own wit and wisdom and how they really took it to that priest.]

  61. acardnal says:

    Fr. Z, based on below, perhaps pberginjr knows where Fr. Ted went.

    pberginjr says:
    20 June 2012 at 10:41 pm
    Done very charitably without yielding points. It’s always interesting to see/hear folks change the subject and then accuse you of changing the subject when you respond to their change. I saw that he is working on a JCL (presumably why he’ll be the next 2 years?) Good luck and many blessings to him!

  62. Fun UPDATE:

    A priest friend who knows Fr. Martin wrote this to me by email:

    They were protesting at the Cathedral because of an article he wrote and he came out and they asked him to sign their little petition with words of thanks to nuns, so he did: Thank you Mother Assumpta for your obedience to the Magisterium, and on like that with a half dozen nuns names.

    Fantastic. I am starting to like this guy more and more.

  63. SisterAllie35 says:

    There are so many things to say about this that I cannot possibly include them all here.

    God bless and Mary keep this young and fervent priest. The Church is very blessed to have him as one of her priests.

    God help and Mary consul these poor misguided women who clearly have NO idea about which they are speaking. Dare I call them heretics? I heard quite a bit of it in this video from them and quite the opposite from the priest.

    “Home church?” Can you say womynprysts?

  64. Jamin says:

    Fr. Z,

    He will be leaving to finish studying for his degree in Canon Law.

  65. MouseTemplar says:

    Arrggh! This crew seemed to be the epitome of everything that gives me hives when talking to Liberal “Catholics”. Fr. Ted is a true Hero of the Church Militant! Dear Pope Benedict was right on when he said it maybe wouldn’t be so bad if we had a smaller Church…..

  66. Stephen D says:

    Please consider putting a comment on Youtube for this video, it was put on there by a supporter of this odd woman and her like who may like to know what faithful Catholics think of her.

  67. jarhead462 says:

    She brought a knife, Father brought a gun.
    Semper Fi!

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  69. Moneo92 says:

    Fr. Z,

    I believe he is headed back to Rome (for 2 years?) to finish up his degree in canon law.

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  71. Athelstan says:

    Late to the party, but:

    Fr. Ted: First of all, not every sister is a part of the LCWR.
    Franke: That’s correct, but the great majority are.
    Fr. Ted: So they’re about 80%. But…I would say this…a lot of the sisters I know – especially the younger sisters, who are really growing – aren’t a part of that.
    Franke: That’s their choice. [cross talk] And we love them too. [Uh huh.]
    Fr. Ted. Ok. So my question would be this, then. Why does someone have a difficulty with the fact that . . . well, first off, as Catholics, we believe that the Bishop of Rome is the successor to Peter, and the bishops are the successors to the Apostles –
    Franke: You believe that. [!]
    Fr. Ted: Catholics do.
    Franke: Well, some Catholics do.
    Fr. Ted: Vatican II said it.
    Franke: Vatican II said that, but they also said a lot of other things that are being ignored. So –
    Fr. Ted: Lumen Gentium #22, the Decree on the Church, says the bishops are the successors to the Apostles, who teach with the authority of Christ. OK. So…in some of the conferences, the doctrinal assessment of the LCWR – in some of the conferences there are speakers who are saying things about going beyond Jesus and even the Church. Because you’re talking about the new religious dialogue –
    Franke: The Church is not the Kingdom. And we know that, and that’s also what Vatican II says, because –
    Fr. Ted: The Vatican II Council actually DOES say that the Church is the Kingdom of God. Lumen Gentium 8 actually says that. If you want, I can show it to you. I have it in Latin and English. [I smell burning flesh.]
    Franke: I’m sure you do. I’m sure you have it in Latin.

    No further commentary needed.

  72. Whenever you’re backed into a corner, slip away and call the guy names. Ridicule is your best weapon, says Saul Alinsky.

    … yet ultimately the way to thwart the Rules for Radicals is nothing less than Christian humility.

  73. contrarian says:

    She kept on implying that the priest was ‘winning’ the argument only because he was changing the rules of the game. But as the priest reminded her, he was doing no such thing. “We’re working with the same data here.”

    Love the cataloging of the ridiculousness in this thread.
    I couldn’t help but notice how often she went to the ‘plank in your eye’ passage.

    But again, though, this just shows how important the investigation by the CDF was. This woman was *teaching young people* this nonsense. We can be sure that your average freshman in college is not as able to defend themselves against such an onslaught even if their intuitions are screaming something different.
    That these women were protesting in front of a church, big whoop. That she was teaching young people this stuff…now that’s truly horrendous.

  74. Johnno says:

    He should’ve brought up the LCWR’s stonewalling of investigations into child abuse by women religious. I’d like to have seen her response! Though she’d likely just shift topics again, after all, that’s not what they’re here for!

  75. markm says:

    …all the books in the world could not contain all she said in this one dialogue…lol
    so she has two degrees, taught theology for 16 years and she’s still not ready…mmm? somethinwrongheremoa!

  76. PhilipNeri says:

    An under-reported phenomenon in all this LCWR vs. Vatican nonsense: LCWR-type sisters have grown up accustomed to the uncritical support of their clerical peers; that is, priests and religious in their age group have rarely said anything but “Yes, sister!” when demands are made to adopt inclusive language, support women “priests,” badmouth the Vatican, etc. As younger and more orthodox priests begin to take over, the sisters are finding their knee-jerk support among the clergy vanishing. LCWR-types simply do not know how to handle 20-something year old priests and religious who answer their demands with hard questions and frank defiance. They still find a lot of support among the Baby Boomer clergy but. . .as we all know. . .well, tick-tock, tick-tock.

    Fr. Philip Neri, OP

  77. onearmsteve says:

    Here’s video in ATL of some ‘catholics’ & a lady ‘priestess’ who claims she has all the faculties

  78. acardnal says:

    Excellent video. The gentleman asking the questions of the pro-LCWR protesters was very soft spoken and mild mannered and simply asked the protesters questions. By doing so, he allowed them to display through their own word and signs how silly, unfounded and non-Catholic their views are.

  79. Sheila says:

    I am beginning to wonder why some congregations in the LCWR do not withdraw from this organization, seeing first hand how their leadership is so far removed from true Catholicism. I belonged to one of these congregations, and they were totally in line with the Church. If I was the superior of one of these communities, I would withdraw immediately. After all, what is the purpose of this organization if it is not in line with true Catholicism?

  80. Mdepie says:

    There is a lot of band width being wasted over the likes of Ms . Franke and the whole LCWR. Maybe twenty years ago. In fact the Vatican is wasting time with them. Fr. Ted ( good an patient man that he is, God bless him) spent 18 minutes longer with her than she deserved. The indisputable facts are these:
    1) Franke et al no longer are recongizably Catholic. This is true regardless of ones particular theological viewpoint. She does not believe anything resembling what Catholicism historically claims to believe, nor does she believe whats in the Catechism. Its rather irrelevant whether the number of people contracepting or not.
    2) Without getting bogged down in arcane debates over the details of Canon law it seems the simplist and most honest thing the Vatican could do would be to excommunicate Franke et al and let them go their own way. I do not see excommunication as a punishment for Franke et al, as its pretty obvious she thinks the institutional Church is basically evil, ( Protecting child abusers and all that) I am not sure why she would want to stay a member if thats all she sees. In fact I think people like her remain “Catholic” because otherwise their agitprop would be as interesting a an assembled group of Wiccans who were protesting what not. Excommunication is simply truth in advertising and would simply mercifully take her dying movement off life support.
    An her movement is dying ( the stats make this clear the average age of the LCWR is mid 60s and the number of new postulants to the orders whose leadership the LWCR represents has been declining rapidly. If the Vatican did nothing, the likes of the LCWR will vanish in about 15 years.
    What makes the likes of Franke so boring is her sheer irrelevancy, the modern western world for the most part is increasingly divided into those who simply prefer their atheism straight up and those who are essentially orthodox and believers in a Christianity which has some historical continuity with something that ST . Augustine would recognize. The ersatz liberal modernist Christian project has run its course. The membership of mainline Protestant churchs has been imploding for decades, and the post Spirit of Vatican II/ Franke/ wing of the Church is old, aging and finding no recruits. To the extent Father Ted is simply trying to save the likes of people like Franke one soul at a time, God bless him, he is a fine priest, but to the extent anyone thinks it is worth paying attention to these people, you are wrong. Their ideology is doomed, and will die with them. The real threat is the aggressively secularist left. The Franke’s only matter if they can pretend they are remotely Catholic and they can do this only if we grant them credibility by paying attention to them.

  81. oldCatholigirl says:

    Father Ted Martin, whose every Mass is recollected and done according to the mind of the church, whether in the Ordinary or Extraordinary form; who preaches the truth with charity, forthrightness, good humor and candor; who is both learned and down-to-earth, is going to Spain, rather than Rome, to study Canon Law. Please, everyone, pray for him. Such a good young priest, who does not shrink from, but rather enjoys, confrontations, is bound to be attacked by forces both within and without the Church and both within and without this world.

  82. acardnal says:

    I wonder if Fr. Martin is going to Navarre Univ. which is Opus Dei administered ?

  83. Ben Yanke says:

    Fr. Ted is awesome.

  84. drea916 says:

    That priest rocks!

  85. oldCatholigirl says:


    I heard today that he is going to Pamplona, and that is where one of the campuses (campi?) of Navarre University is located.

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  87. JacobWall says:

    Favorite line:

    Fr. Ted: “Can you name the 16 documents for me?”
    Woman: “Oh, that’s not important.”

    So, it’s not important to know what Vat II says, if your going to speak about the Spirit of Vatican II?

  88. PostCatholic says:

    To paraphrase:

    First they came for the liberation theologians,
    and I spoke out though I wasn’t a liberation theologian.

    Then they came for the liberal bishops,
    and I spoke out though I wasn’t a bishop.

    Then they had the Quinn Study,
    and I spoke out though I wasn’t Quinn.

    Then they came for the seminaries,
    and I spoke out though I never went to a seminary.

    Then they came for the Folk Mass,
    and I spoke out though I wasn’t Folk.

    Then they set up a CMSM,
    and I spoke out though I wasn’t in the CMSM.

    [Then they didn’t come for the pedophile-protecting bishops,
    and I spoke out though I a pedophile-protecting bishop.]

    Then they came for me,
    and I’m quite surprised by this terribly sudden turn of events
    and I’m speaking out again, because you know, that always works.

  89. letchitsa1 says:

    I loved how fast she changed the subject when he asked if she could name the 16 documents of Vatican II for him.

    He got several other good ones in there, too.

    Good for Father!

  90. MissOH says:

    Wow, Father was so charitable.
    The ignorance of the women was stunning. Very scary that “talky woman” taught for 16 years. She could not be bothered with facts or what is actually in the documents. All was syncretism, relativism and sentimentality- “she knows the spirit of Vatican II”.
    Bravo Father.

  91. Dandelion Killer says:

    I love Fr. Martin! He inhabited brilliance, kindness and humility in attempting to address Franke’s concerns. It has been a while since Youtube has been this cool.

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