Belgian Archbishop advocates Catholic recognition of same-sex stuff

Certain elements in the Church are lately emboldened. They have sensed that they have a window of opportunity. The iron is heating and they are striking.

Today we read of a bishop in Belgium who has been touted as, perhaps, the next Archbishop of Malines-Brussels.  He came out publicly in favor of Catholic recognition of same-sex unions. HERE Translation HERE

Bishop Johan Bonny of Antwerp said (not my trans.):

“We have to look inside the church for a formal recognition of the relationality which is also present in many gay couples. As there are a variety of legal frameworks in society exists for partners must arrive recognition form a diversity in the church.”

Moreover, he argues that a homosexual relationship as well the criteria of a religious marriage can satisfy.“The intrinsic values ??are more important to me than the institutional demand. The Christian ethic is based on lasting relationships where exclusivity, loyalty and care are central to each other.”

The article goes on to quote the Rector of the Catholic University of Leuven, who opines that this suggestion by Bonny is a “turning point” that would not have been possible in the “dogmatic” pontificates of St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

I’ll say.

The world is going mad.

Moderation queue is on.

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  1. thomas tucker says:

    One would not ordinarily expect a Catholic archbishop to need, via gradualism, to be brought into the fullness of the faith, but that seems to be the case here.

  2. Incaelo says:

    Worrying indeed. Bishop Bonny is touted as a successor to Archbishop André-Joseph Léonard – a shepherd, scholar and gentleman like few bishops, and retiring next year – in Brussels, but I hope these comments spoiled his chances…

    And he’s not just doing a great disservice to Christ and His teachings, but also to the people the Church is called to help. Empty and impossible promises don’t help anyone, although they may sound nice…

  3. Priam1184 says:

    Is anyone really surprised by this?

  4. Gratias says:

    The destroyers of the Catholic Church feel the wind is on their backs.

  5. Papabile says:

    Thank God I live in the Diocese of Arlington, though even we have out crazies.

    If that excrement ever begins to enter our parishes here, it will be off to a hotel room for Mass.

    At some point,one must defend their children.

  6. Fr. A.M. says:

    Bonny is actually bishop of Antwerp and not archbishop.

  7. FrAnt says:

    He should be called downtown (Rome) and given a talking to. Nip this in the butt right away, leaving no chance for continued talk.

  8. ChrisRawlings says:

    If it wasn’t for the pontificate of Benedict the XVI, who appointed him bishop, he wouldn’t even be a bishop in the first place. But to assert that either Benedict or Francis or either of their pontificates is responsible, even indirectly, for Bonny’s anti-family agenda is shameful and false.

    The silent schism lying beneath the foundations of the Church has been there for a long time. Having incredibly talented popes for several decades in a row made things look much brighter than they really were.

    There is a wonderful article in the Frankfurter Algemeiner by a German journalist named Gunther, wherein he projects that in Germany the Church will be a community of roughly the same size as the J. Witness community before long. That is what happens when you sell the Gospel for worldly recognition and applause. You get an atrophied Church resting in the shoulders of the few holy souls left who still bother to take it seriously.

    And that is something no pope by themselves can prevent.

  9. Paulo says:

    ” The Christian ethic is based on lasting relationships where exclusivity, loyalty and care are central to each other.” Nice! The defenestration of complementarity! And we all go our merry way… (in an enormous effort of self-editing and well knowing the moderation is ON, I will just mutter to myself all the other things that come to mind).

  10. Thorfinn says:

    This is not surprising; the only change is that it is spoken openly instead of privately. Though as a public comment from an archbishop it becomes a matter of scandal, there is also the opportunity for correction by the Holy Father or the CDF.

  11. Fr. A.M. says:

    ‘Zoals er ook in de samenleving een diversiteit aan legale kaders bestaat voor partners, moet er in de kerk een diversiteit aan erkenningsvormen komen.” : ‘Just as there exists a diversity of legal frameworks for partners in society, there has to come diversity in the forms of recognition in the Church’.

    “Bovendien stelt hij dat een holebirelatie evengoed aan de criteria van een kerkelijk huwelijk kan voldoen. “De inhoudelijke waarden zijn voor mij belangrijker dan de institutionele vraag. De christelijke ethiek gaat uit van duurzame relaties waarin exclusiviteit, trouw en zorg voor elkaar centraal staan.” Above all he proposed that a homosexual relationship was no less satisfactory in fulfilling the criteria for an ecclesiastical marriage.” The content of the values are more important to me than the institutional question. The Christian ethic originates from longstanding relationships where exclusivity, trust and care for each other stand central’. (I added this line – it is shocking)

    ‘Kerkjurist en KU Leuven-rector Rik Torfs beschouwt Bonny’s boodschap als een ommekeer: “Onderschat de betekenis hiervan niet. Bonny pleit voor een verandering van lang voor onwankelbaar gehouden principes, iets wat onder de dogmatische pontificaten van Johannes Paulus II en Benedictus XVI geen enkele bisschop zich kon veroorloven.” The canonist and rector of the Catholic University of Leuven, Rik Torfs, regarded Bonny’s message as a U-turn : ‘Do not underestimate what this means. Bonny argues for a change of principles that have long been steadfast, which no single bishop could freely do under the dogmatic pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI’ ‘. That is my best translation !

  12. Sonshine135 says:

    They may get what they want too, because I see a clear path and method for people like this Belgian Bishop to get there. Something that continues to raise the hackles on the back of my neck are Pope Francis’ continuous attack on those who are in his mind “legalistic”. Recall this quote:

    “This is the path that Jesus teaches us, totally opposite to that of the doctors of law. And it’s this path from love and justice that leads to God. Instead, the other path, of being attached only to the laws, to the letter of the laws, leads to closure, leads to egoism. The path that leads from love to knowledge and discernment, to total fulfillment, leads to holiness, salvation and the encounter with Jesus. Instead, the other path leads to egoism, the arrogance of considering oneself to be in the right, to that so-called holiness of appearances, right?”

    Pope Francis, from what I have learned about him, is extremely clever. While not throwing out the Magisterium altogether (and I quite imagine he would be very opposed to something like this), he can use the language like that to signal others that he is okay with rules being bent out of “love”. At the same time, he can continue to beat those of us who are “self-important” about the head with a big smile upon his face.

    Now, you may be thinking: “That isn’t me.” It is you. You follow the scripture and try to follow the Magisterium and the Church laws right? You may then ask: “Why would he not want a person who follows the church? This is unusual to me, because I follow the law out of love of Christ and the Church, and not out of self importance (egoism, as the Pontiff has stated).” The fact is simply this, he doesn’t care. You do not fit into his mold of what a Catholic person looks like. The pews must be filled with the downcast, the downtrodden, the homeless, the homosexual couples, the irregular marriage situations, and people who will do all they can to love them as they are. Recall, the Pope also said the following to newly ordained Bishops in September:

    “I also beg you to not let yourselves be deceived by the temptation to change the people. Love the people that God has given you, even when they will have committed great sins.”

    That is the rub. You follow the law. You try to follow what Christ has taught. You try to follow what the church has taught. You try to apply that to people. Pope Francis says no. Don’t change people. If you continue down that path, you are nothing but an egotist. You are more important to yourself than other people are.

    The Jesuits are liberal-especially in areas of social justice. Now the Pontiff is a Jesuit. He is going to change things, and I am convinced it will not be based on the letter of the law. Pope Francis is opening a door that Bishops like this will walk through gladly. We saw this in the insistence to include the articles that were voted down in the final Synod document. It is clearly repeated attempts to signal the church and in fact, the world to get ready. While the teachings and the laws of the church don’t need to change- they simply won’t be enforced. You must simply look beyond the pleasantries.

    To clarify, I am not anti-Francis or pro-Francis. I simply don’t like the particular direction I see the church heading into. I pray for the Pope and for his intentions daily. I don’t believe disliking these things makes me a bad Catholic.

  13. Joseph-Mary says:

    In the days before Humanae Vitae there was much talk by prelates that the sin of contraception would no longer be sin and it would be approved. When the truth was upheld, many of them very publicly dissented and the result is that most Catholic couples contracept. When bishops go around spouting heresy they are heard because sin is very enticing. And even when the Church upholds the truth many will discard it. Bishops and others in authority have a very grave responsibility for souls are in their charge, not to mention their own.

  14. DeGaulle says:

    Since this bonny bishop considers it desirable to adapt the Church to “a variety of legal frameworks in society”, does this imply that he has a blueprint for adapting the Church teachings to make permissible the euthanasia of children, also part of the “legal framework” of Belgian society?

    Yes, “insanity” is the only word for all this.

  15. ejcmartin says:

    My archbishop unfortunately beat him to it. I’d say it was a day or two after the release of the intermediate report of the synod (yeah, that one) and he was being quoted in the local paper about the Church needing to recognize same-sex unions. A lot can change in a few years. It wasn’t long ago our previous archbishop publicly rebuked a priest who came out in favour of same-sex unions. Less than a decade later that same priest is now a spokesman for the archdiocese.

  16. John2015 says:

    What exactly is there to recognise in a same sex union in relation to the Church? I don’t understand what we are meant to recognise. The Church has never taught that homosexuals are excluded from attending Church services and the mass and if they are abstaining from sexual acts then they can partake in the sacraments… same with heterosexuals. As an aside… as you are a priest, Fr Z, if you know of a person who is attracted to the same sex, do you assume they are not in a state of grace? [No, I don’t. Not unless they give me cause. But I also know human nature. All of us are sinners and fall short of what we are intended to be.]

  17. Mike says:

    It would be a profound spiritual work of mercy if somebody, preferably with a tiara, would explain why, with shenanigans like this on the upswing, the most urgent priority for the Body of Christ (as reported elsewhere) is the issuance of an encyclical on global warming.

    It would be especially kind if they would go slowly enough that I won’t think I went to sleep and woke up Episcopalian.

  18. MariaKap says:

    The Christian ethic is based on lasting relationships where exclusivity, loyalty and care are central to each other.” But not, apparently, procreation.

  19. anilwang says:

    The world is always mad. What’s exasperating is that from time to time the Church also drinks from the madness of the world.

    G. K. Chesterton had a simple way of expressing the need for the Church in a way that even atheists could understand. He said something to the effect that, the world doesn’t need a Church that says it’s right when it already came to that conclusion. That sort of Church has no place in the world. The world needs a church that tells it is wrong when it thinks it’s right.

    Since Vatican II, this the Church has been shy about expressing this simple fact which is why it is sometimes afraid of saying the world is wrong when it actually is. Since the last few months, it seems to disavow this mission and believes that if the world and Church disagree, then the world is right.

  20. jbpolhamus says:

    This is all typical ’60’s/’70’s stuff, and designed to foment a generation of crippling pederasty lawsuits thirty years from now. What can one say, as Francis sows, so the church will reap. Benedict betrayed the church into their hands, perhaps to let them burn the house to the ground so it can be rebuilt. We press on with the SSPX and others who maintain the Roman Catholic Faith. There will come a splitting point when all will choose sides. I’ve never made a secret of which faith I maintain. Oh well, these things happen. The faith goes on.

  21. Traductora says:

    Bishop Bonny was appointed by BXVI, who made some notoriously bad appointments, but that was really because he just accepted the most recommended (by the nuncio) of the terna produced by the local bishops’ conference. He was way too trusting, although as he was able to appoint new nuncios and the better bishops had more influence in the bishops’ conferences, things improved.

    By contrast, Pope Francis or members of his circle have directly intervened in episcopal appointments, particularly in Spanish speaking countries, bringing up a mediocre or even bad candidate virtually out of nowhere and appointing him ahead of all of the terna and the nuncio’s recommendation. Perhaps Pope Benedict should have done this too, but he played by the rules and intervened perhaps less than he should have; and if he had intervened, the howling would have been so loud he would have been driven out of office even sooner.

    That said, the important thing is not that this bishop made these statements…but the reaction to them from Rome. So far, at about day three or four, silence.

  22. Suburbanbanshee says:

    The problem is that Pope Francis’ picture of fighting against legalism is St. Therese having to go all the way to the Pope to get admitted into a convent when she was still a little bit young for it, whereas people like this Bonny are thinking it’s anything that looks like a solid piece of ground.

    And no, I’m pretty sure that Jesus didn’t add anything to his statement about how things had been in the beginning that said, “And yeah, I also created five extra people at the beginning who didn’t end up as ancestors of the human race, because they were so busy being same-sex married and same-sex polygamous. But I didn’t kick them out of the garden, because their relationships were all about exclusivity, love, care, and the poems on hipster greeting cards.”

  23. YoungLatinMassGuy says:

    I’m going to just pray for this Bishop, and not write what’s really on my mind.

  24. Orphrey says:

    Call me naive, or just an innocent recent convert, but I find such expressions by Church leaders to be very disturbing. “Scandal,” I think is the word. But maybe, in a sense, we should be grateful to this bishop for speaking honestly about his views on these sins, as well as others in the hierarchy and laity who share his views and make them public. It helps to separate the sheep and the goats, as it were. In other words, when such leaders put their cards on the table like this, we have a clearer understanding of the state of things in the Church. Let us pray for all our clergy!

  25. NBW says:

    He needs to be placed in a contemplative setting with many traditional Catholic books.

  26. Ed the Roman says:

    Nip this in the butt right away, leaving no chance for continued talk.

    Before it bites us in the @$$?

  27. iteadthomam says:

    I just don’t understand why Bishops like this aren’t excommunicated if they persist in advocating abominable acts which God hates.

  28. Michael in NoVA says:

    One of the parishes near me has a hymnal that includes a hymn by Chesterton. Needless to say, it doesn’t proclaim how blessed God is to have us grace Him with our presence. I’ve bolded the parts that I feel apply here:

    “O God of Earth and Altar” by G.K. Chesterton

    O God of earth and altar,
    Bow down and hear our cry,
    Our earthly rulers falter,
    Our people drift and die;
    The walls of gold entomb us,
    The swords of scorn divide,
    Take not thy thunder from us,
    But take away our pride.

    From all that terror teaches,
    From lies of tongue and pen,
    From all the easy speeches
    That comfort cruel men
    From sale and profanation
    Of honour and the sword,
    From sleep and from damnation,
    Deliver us, good Lord.

    Tie in a living tether
    The prince and priest and thrall,
    Bind all our lives together,
    Smite us and save us all;
    In ire and exultation
    Aflame with faith, and free,
    Lift up a living nation,
    A single sword to thee.

  29. LarryW2LJ says:

    And this is why Catholicism in Europe is going the way it is. You would think that people would be smart enough to learn from the Anglicans. Sadly, no.

  30. Deacon Augustine says:

    “The world is going mad.”

    The world was always mad, Father, its just that the world has taken over much of the hierarchy and is no longer afraid to show its presence in the temple of God. While there is a trend to create a false dichotomy between the letter and the spirit of God’s Law being promoted at the highest levels, I don’t see any cure for these abominations apart from direct divine intervention. Let God arise….

  31. excalibur says:

    “The world is going mad”.

    Indeed. And now we will get an encyclical form His Holiness on climate change.

    Pope Francis To Write An Encyclical on ‘Climate Change’

    Following a visit in March to Tacloban, the Philippine city devastated in 2012 by typhoon Haiyan, the pope will publish a rare encyclical on climate change and human ecology. Urging all Catholics to take action on moral and scientific grounds, the document will be sent to the world’s 5,000 Catholic bishops and 400,000 priests, who will distribute it to parishioners.

    According to Vatican insiders, Francis will meet other faith leaders and lobby politicians at the general assembly in New York in September, when countries will sign up to new anti-poverty and environmental goals.

  32. Mojoron says:


  33. Thomas S says:

    Michael in NoVA,

    Love the hymn. The meter fits with “The Church’s One Foundation,” off the top of my head. Can it be found in one of the volumes of Chesterton’s poems from Ignatius Press?

  34. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    Incaelo, with becoming modesty, did not point out above (11:41 a.m.) that in a post at his blog he, as a native-speaker of Dutch, has translated every quotation from Bishop Bonny in the Flemish article Fr. Z links:

    In the context of Bishop Bonny’s interview, another of his recent posts is worth noting, with a link to a third from two years ago, both of which concern (among other hair-raising things) “the blessing of homosexual unions” by priests serving as chaplains at two Dutch universities:

    (He reports “there is no intention of firing Fr. Koster or actively changing the praxis at the chaplaincy” prior to his retirement “in 18 months”, though there seems the intention – and expectation of success – on the part of the Diocese for change thereafter. Perhaps he can be encouraged to give us more details as to why “there is no intention of […] changing the praxis” immediately. He may also know if the article linked by Fr. Z is all the Flemish paper produced as a result of its interview with Bishop Bonny, or if there is more in a paper edition, behind a paywall, or simply elsewhere online. I would be interested to know of Bishop Bonny’s relations with the Dutch Old Catholics, as his remarks seem both to echo what they said in introducing ‘same-sex-couple blessings’ eight years ago, and also to go beyond some of what they said and did then!)

  35. Allan S. says:

    About the only benefit I can discern from the chaos into which the Church has been hurled (“The Fruits of the Abdication”) is that it is flushing heresy out into the open, so we’ll have a pretty solid list of all the wolves in sleeps’ clothing. Ditto, for the careerists who tilt with the wind and change their beliefs to accord with those of whomever reigns.

    My only other thought is this: I joined the Roman Catholic Church because it possessed the truth, and spoke it fearlessly whatever the worldly consequences. I aligned myself with the truth, and He Who is Truth. As soon as the Church stops speaking the truth, and capitulates to the world, I will leave because it will no longer be home to the truth which must therefore be…somewhere else.

    Even confessors ministering to penitents struggling with despair and fidelity have taken refuge in the “we’ve had bad popes before, this too shall pass, just work on your personal holiness” narrative.

  36. RJHighland says:

    When St. Ignatius of Antioch spoke of the necessity of obedience to your bishop I don’t think he ever imagined there would ever be bishops in the Church that spoke like this heretic that masquerades as a bishop.

  37. TheDude05 says:

    In honor of St. Thomas Becket I remember a scene from a movie that would quite rightly stop this nonsense. I recently became a Catholic from being a Baptist. Much study and prayer went into my decision and the Holy Ghost convinced me of the truth that is Catholic teaching. To see the Shepherds who are supposed to safeguard this very truth that upended my world and saved me tears at my heart. Our current society’s obscuring of the distinct lines between truth, fact, and error should be a rallying cry for the whole Church, not to give in to pressure but to use charity to save the sheep from the cliff that leads to the Abyss.

  38. Fr. Vincent Fitzpatrick says:

    In a world that was not insane and a Church that was not a shambles, any bishop who gave that interview would return home that evening and find his vestments, his suits, his underwear, and all other personal effects in the street, and the locks changed.

  39. Incaelo says:

    Venerator Sti Lot was kind enough to link to my blog, so I’ll briefly address some of his remarks here. The reason I didn’t link to my own blog post is that I wrote it after commenting here.

    I expect that the full interview with Bishop Bonny was published in the paper edition, and that some choice quotes made it to the website (which illustrates the problem: some editor selected quotes and interpreted or summarised them, which, as we see regularly, distorts the true meaning or intention of the person who first made the statements). Anyway, I don’t have access to the paper version of the interview, but neither have I seen any correction or explanation from the bishop, which makes me think he is fine with what was printed.

    Regarding the university chaplains you mentioned: the fact is that the situations has been allowed to continue for far too long. Only recently, after the appointment of an auxiliary bishop who is not only orthodox but also fearless, and an orthdox priest being put in charge of the diocesan contacts with the universities and schools, have things slowly begun to change. But we must take Dutch mentality into account: change is scary, and even more scary are alleged infringements on perceived rights. In the past, appointments by the diocese have led to more than a few people leaving and establishing their own wannabe church communities. That is what I can imagine lies at the root of not yet removing the current priest, but instead making use of his upcoming retirement.

  40. williamjm says:

    Allan S:

    “As soon as the Church stops speaking the truth, and capitulates to the world, I will leave because it will no longer be home to the truth which must therefore be…somewhere else.” This is impossible. Jesus Christ promised that the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church. As bad as things may seem, we must always remember that the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church to the end of time. How many times in the history of the world has it seemed that Church was done for, and, in human terms, should have been done for, but lived?

  41. GSM says:

    As a Catholic in Flanders I ask myself how I have to react to the neverending statements of Mgr Bonny. Because it has quite some consequences.

    In my own parish we had a preeching how we should follow our own conscience and not wait until Rome finally turns around, but that we should follow the Bonny-lettre. This kind of talk has never been heard here before.

    Now, the catholic student association has made a statement against the newest interview of Bonny. . But they get angry reactions in the press. Is this normal, that lay catholics have to defend what is in the catechism, while our bishops say things that are expressly against it? And the other bishops remain just quiet. Where Mgr Leonard had a good start some years ago, he is always silent now in the Flemish press, and no bishop makes a catholic stand. It is no fun to try to be just a normal catholic, and be stigmatised both by the secular world and by our own bishops as ‘intolerant extremists’.

  42. albizzi says:

    Then what should we do with St Paul’s (1 Cor. 6:9-10):
    ” Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
    Should we say like Pope Francis: “Who am I to judge?” and let the homosexuals live their wrong way of life as it pleases them until they will end into Hell ?

  43. Landless Laborer says:


  44. Andrew says:

    There is nothing new about some bishop (or bishops) holding heretical views. Bishop Bonny’s comments about ‘intrinsic values’ present in homosexual relationships are contradicting the Church’s official teaching on the matter of homosexuality:

    Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” (CCC 2357)

    ‘Intrinsic disorder’ cannot be turned into ‘intrinsic value’. It is useful at times to be short and to the point.

  45. Venerator Sti Lot says:


    Thank you for your further light on these matters! (My apologies for not raising the possibility that your post followed Fr. Z’s – it did occur to me, though I cannot recall whether before or after I had hit the “Post” button! In any case, your site is a splendid source for news about “The Catholic Church in the Netherlands viewed from within” for the English-speaking world!)

    The differences and similarities between “Dutch mentality” and others looks like a rewarding subject for further discussion (which is not meant as a heavy-handed hint to you for future posts!). There seem distinct similarities between a readiness to swallow some camel-sized changes (if ‘wreckovation’ history is anything to go by) while choking violently even on some gnat-sized ones (where goals considered attained and ‘rights’ acquired are involved), but a clearer picture of the nuances would be worth having…

    Your 18 December update referring to commentary by “the chaplaincy council” got me searching and I found:

    A reaction in their name from two ‘professor doctors’ suggests quite a degree of ensconcement of something probably distinctly different from fearless orthodoxy. Where the orthodox professor doctor Bodar seems to distinguish ‘praying for people’ from a certain sort of impermissible ‘display in a church building’, the chaplaincy professor doctors speak of ‘the blessing of relationships’ as ‘an act not forbidden in the doctrine of the church’ (!).

    Thanks, too, to GSM for more details of the Flemish context and reactions – or, in some cases, lack of reactions! (An impressive Catholic student association, apparently more than a hundred years old, which I had never heard of, before!)

  46. gramma10 says:

    Belgium is going down the tubes fast!
    Euthanasia is rampant there too! Yes and for children! The devil has taken up residence there and no one seems to care. I know a person whose grandparents who live in Belgium killed themselves via assisted suicide recently. I feel nauseous lately about the state of the soul of our world. Grotesque! Everyone is going mad absolutely. Pray please.
    PS. And one of the most joy filled coolest CHRISTMAS flashmob email’s is in the train station of Antwerp. Sound of Music-Do A Dear……a female…….I really enjoyed that bit of light in a dark place. Fun and happy!

  47. Ademar says:

    Folks, let us not forget, clergy and laity alike, that the most effective way of combating
    the rising evil we see around us is through our personal striving, with God’s grace, for
    HOLINESS, each in our own corner of the world and station in life. And holiness consists
    simply in doing God’s will for us moment-by-moment (using of course the various means He’s given us, such as the Eucharist (mainly!!), Confession, Adoration, Rosary, devotions, our talents, and our abilities) — we live our love for Him and our intimacy with Him in this way.
    We will only know in eternity about how the little old lady sitting silently but raptly by the pillar in the back of the church at Adoration, or the teen who chose for love of Christ one day to always be good to his little sister, prevented some worldwide catastrophe because of their willingness to do His will.

  48. jeffreyquick says:

    “We have to look inside the church for a formal recognition of the relationality which is also present in many gay couples. ”

    There is relationality between an axe murderer and his victim too, just sayin’.

  49. Pingback: St. Amand and King Dagobert of the Franks | Aliens in This World

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