Good news has come in:
Father,
I just wanted to let you know that the EF training for priests and servers at the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary community in Still River, MA was a great success! I called to sign myself and 3 friends up for the server training, and they had to schedule us for a different day, because so many priests had signed up that there was no room for us! The four of us eventually got down there (we all go to school in the Diocese of Manchester) and had a really great training session, but the best part is that the community down there told us that if we knew of any priests who were interested in learning the Extraordinary form they would be more than happy to set up more training sessions. I already have a Ukrainian Rite priest, who I am friendly with through my 4th Degree Assembly, interested in heading down there for a training session, and I would be overjoyed if there are any other priests in the New England area who would be interested. I would be more than willing to be a contact person to get everything set up, or they can contact the Slaves directly through their website. Just wanted to update you on this.Unfortunately, still no luck getting an EF Mass at Saint Anselm College in Manchester, NH though. Oh well…
Oremus Pro Invicem,
Brick by brick!
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That is very interesting – I never knew that the feeneyites attended the New Mass – the ones I know didn’t. This raises an interesting point that perhaps you can shed some light on Father; both of the orders that call themselves Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary deny publicly and obstinately Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood, and Invincible Ignorance – yet one is recognized by the diocese in which they are located. Does this mean that BoD, BoB, and II are theological uncertainties and that we do not need to believe them? Conservative Catholics seem to go crazy when someone defends “Outside the Church no Salvation” and denies the other baptisms.
To Whom It May Concern,
The Slaves of the IH are grown out of the movement of Fr. Feeney SJ in the late 1940s. I was wondering what the relationship to the Church of the group in Still River is? Is the center at Still River (School, Convent etc.) in union with Rome, attached to the SSPX or totally independent?
I know there is another Feeney offshoot group also called the Slaves of the IH that is in Southern NH, (which is not affiliated with Still River) which is not in a regularized position with the Church. And is know for some radical anti-Semitic positions.
So I was just wondering where the Fall River group fell.
Thanks
Wow – right down a rabbit hole in the very first comment! I hope we can stick to the topic so Father won’t have to shut-off comments here. Looks to me like this posting is about a very *positive* thing: a group of religious in *full communion* with their bishop and a priest from another diocese have been generously donating their time and skills to hold workshops on the EF for priests from at least five dioceses – and now training for servers as well!
I suggest that if Jamie has any questions as to the positions held by the Slaves of the IHM in Still River, Ma. he contact them directly. Last time I checked they were in the ‘phone book.
BTW – the Slaves have also produced an very good DVD for priests on learning to celebrate the “extraordinary form”…
Maynardus: I know the position of the Slaves – they do not believe in Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire, or Invincible Ignorance – they are hardly going to answer the question I posed in any other way. I still would like to know if we are allowed to deny these three things – because most conservatives I know will call you a heretic if you do.
Jamie,
The “feeneyites” in Richmond and I believe in Still River teach that BOD, and BOB both fall within the realm of theological speculation, and is an orthodox opinion. This seems to be the position of the New Catechism:
“The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” (1257)
Notice the first sentence. The Catechism then goes on to speak of BoB and BoD, but does not say about them that they “assure entry into eternal beatitude”. It seems to treat BoB and BoD as theological speculation, as opposed to something within the Deposit of Faith.
With regard to invincible ignorance, the feeneyites believe in this, but reject along with all orthodox Catholics that invincible ignorance can save. As the Catechism says:
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” (848)
So they are not saved by invincible ignorance but by faith.
The Still River group is in regular status with the Church and in full union with the Pope. The Benedictine Abbey in Still River also teaches the same with regard to Fr. Feeney, although they celebrate the Sacraments according to the Ordinary Form.
Sorry for the rabbit hole.
Christopher: Many thanks for that answer!
Jamie,
Part of the confusion comes from the fact that there are two “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary” and both claim to be founded by Fr. Feeney. The Still River, MA group (the one referenced here) is recognized by their diocese. The Richmond, NH group does not enjoy diocesan approval and operates as an “independent” chapel.
I also apologize for any rabbit hole.
I love seeing boys and young men servinf in the Older Use. I see them as receivng the enormous priviledge that I received when I was their age and I say to myself, “Aha! The Rite lives on!
For whoever wrote this, I am moving to Manchester…Is the EF offered in Manchester at all, anywhere? I know it’s every other weekend at St.Patrick’s in Nashua…but what about in Manchester?
Doozerdog,
I sent this email to Fr. Z. And unfortunately, no it is not offered in Manchester. The Ukrainian priest I mentioned is in Manchester, and I would assume once he feels comfortable with the Latin and the Rubrics that he will be offering it in at least a limited fashion. There are also EF Masses celebrated in Louden and Portsmouth, but I do not know the schedule off-hand. However, if you would like to go to some very orthodox and well done liturgies, head over to Saint Anselm Abbey. We are spoiled over here by the good liturgy! There church itself is a bit non-traditional, but it was built in the 60’s, just before the true start of the Liturgical Dark Ages, and we need to use what we have.
To everyone with questions about the Slaves, they were regularized in 2004 by the Bishop of Worcester. Even. if they were still in schism, none of them are priests. Instead they rely on the kindness of retired priests and others who know the TLM; therefore, I believe, the Masses would be licit (correct me if I’m wrong about this hypothetical situation, please). Additionally, for the last training session, they brought in an FSSP priest to teach the other priests.
Oremus Pro Invicem,
Dan
Sorry for the double post, I meant to say “well done Novus Ordo Liturgies.”
Small correction to Dan’s comment:
The priest training sessions at Still River were done by Fr. Joseph Santos, Jr. of Providence, RI who is not a priest of the F.S.S.P.
Another incidental – at least one of these sessions has been held at the request of Bishop McManus of Worcester, who desires that any of his priests who wish to say the “extraordinary form” may be well prepared to do so.
Not sure how things are shaking out elsewhere in the U.S., but here in New England there are a number of informal “resources” available if a priest wishes to learn to celebrate the old rite. No, they aren’t advertised in the diocesan directories (yet!) but the “grapevine” seems to work fairly well…
Maynardus,
Thanks for the correction. As I said in my email to Fr. Z, the day he came up was full, so the server training which they had the next day was run by the brothers.
Oremus Pro Invicem,