That won’t happen today. If I had the time, I would write an article that defines the Church today as being divided by the Living Church and the Church of Power. The living Church is young, vibrant, intelligent. It is found in some dioceses, among some bishops and in orthodox and traditional communities. The Church of Power is old, ideological and, since it has little sway among the youth (it does not give life), it must rely on power to get it’s way. We see this with the appointment of bishops. There are a few ideological appointments that stand out and the rest are of fairly nice, bland administrators who will not stand up to the ideologues.
In the short term this is bad news, but since the living Church does not buy the thin theology and the ideology, the long term prognosis is more hopeful.
Wait, I’m confused. He says, “Anche non so se potrei bene spiegarmi nella vostra…(corrects himself) la nostra lingua Italiana–se mi sbaglio, mi corrigerete.” Which means loosely, “Also I don’t know if I can explain myself well in your…our Italian language–if I blunder, you must correct me.”
Isn’t he referring to the idea that if he trips over his tongue trying to speak Italian, they will correct him? Obviously we can infer a certain humility and willingness to be corrected from that, but are we reading more into this than necessary due to circumstances?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m as frustrated as any over what is happening just now, but I don’t think this is really what we are making it out to be…
roma: exactly. Just a touch of Zed-ian humor. Personally I put my trust in the Petrine promise, and am not worried. The full quote, as I am sure most know below.
“Tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam mean et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum”
(“You are ‘Rock’ and on this rock I will build my Church, to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven.” Mt 16:18)
@giovanni–
Yes, I too take great solace in Christ’s promise that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church. But boy, some days I can still smell the stench blowing in from there. Sigh.
It was refreshing to watch this clip, knowing what became of the papacy of which that was the incipit. The last time I heard those words being spoken, I had great hope for the future, but have experienced only heaviness of heart.
I keep praying!!!
Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love.
V. Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created.
R. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray. O God, Who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant us in the same Spirit to be truly wise, and ever to rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ our Lord.
I got a little misty eyed seeing this. Sure, he should have granted wide use of the TLM, but John Paul certainly knew where the rails were…and he was a saint!
There is an increasing number of people who would like to be supporters of this “fraternal” correction of the Pope. According to the published list of signatories of this correctio filialis there is only one bishop who is a signatory and that is +Bernard Fellay of the SSPX and he has signed for the whole of the SSPX. However, I do know at least one other bishop who wants to add his name and that is +Rene Henry Gracida DD, Bishop Emeritus of the diocese of Corpus Christi. I know that because he has sent me an email from his blog Abyssus Abyssum Invocat telling me that he has added his name.
I remember that day, I was living in Italy at the time. I second what donato2 said. We Italians just loved it when he addressed the crowd in our own language. What made him particularly endearing was that he made a slight mistake, corrigerete” instead of correggerete. The mistake was obviously influenced by the Latin “corrigere.”
I’m Italian, so I think I can say something here.
I remember pretty well this scene, even though in 1978 I was only 15.
I would make some points.
First, when he asked for correction, Saint John Paul was referring to the mistakes he could make expressing himself in a language that wasn’t his mother tongue (even though he spoke it really fluently). [OF COURSE HE WAS!]
Second, as pointed out above, he did make a mistake in the very sentence where he asked for such correction, as he said “corrigerete” (influenced by the Latin “corrigere”, that is “to correct”) instead of “correggerete” (from the Italian “correggere”). I have to say that I always suspected that this error, given the very good knowledge that he had of Italian, even before becoming Pope, was made on purpose, to gain some benevolence by the flock. I’m not sure, anyway.
Third, and most important, from what I know about Saint John Paul II, I have some doubt that he would have been very open to receive correction. His fame was that he would surely listen to the other people (and, I think, never deny an udience), but then decide on his own. [Quite an assumption.]
The main point, in all this discussion (and also in other discussions about what Pope Francis says and does), is not, mainly, whether he is humble and open to correction, but whether his behavior and his words are really always in line with the Gospel or not (and the thing that this may be put in discussion is, in itself, very disturbing), and, also, why doesn’t he answer explicitly certain questions (while he answers a lot of other questions on the planes).
I am pretty sure that Pope John Paul, if confronted with some discussion about what he was teaching, would have made his thought plain clear, and also explained it according to the Gospel and to the deposit of Tradition (as he did in Familiaris Consortio to explain the prohibition of receive the Eucharist for civilly remarried spouses). You could not like what he was saying… but there would not be any doubt about the contents.
Can the same be said about Pope Francis?
I have to say that I always suspected that this error, given the very good knowledge that he had of Italian, even before becoming Pope, was made on purpose, to gain some benevolence by the flock. I’m not sure, anyway.
We all can’t know, of course. But you can speak a language well if you don’t have to think about the language; just about the content of what you are going to say say. And if someone is able to do just that, and know Italian well and does of course know that the word is “corregere” or “costruzione” or whatever, then especially if one is good enough to just speak the language, without the internal translation thought process, it is rather hard not to instinctively say “corrigere” or “construzione” if one isn’t Italian. (And I wouldn’t take bets that one cannot at all hear any other consonant (cosonant?) between the u and the z.)
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The most evident mark of God’s anger and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world are manifested when He permits His people to fall into the hands of clerics who are priests more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than the charity and affection of devoted shepherds.
St. John Eudes
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“Until the Lord be pleased to settle, through the instrumentality of the princes of the Church and the lawful ministers of His justice, the trouble aroused by the pride of a few and the ignorance of some others, let us with the help of God endeavor with calm and humble patience to render love for hatred, to avoid disputes with the silly, to keep to the truth and not fight with the weapons of falsehood, and to beg of God at all times that in all our thoughts and desires, in all our words and actions, He may hold the first place who calls Himself the origin of all things.”
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“He [Satan] will set up a counter-Church which will be the ape of the Church because, he the devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the anti-Christ that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. In desperate need for God, whom he nevertheless refuses to adore, modern man in his loneliness and frustration will hunger more and more for membership in a community that will give him enlargement of purpose, but at the cost of losing himself in some vague collectivity.”
“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops.”
“The modern habit of doing ceremonial things unceremoniously is no proof of humility; rather it proves the offender's inability to forget himself in the rite, and his readiness to spoil for every one else the proper pleasure of ritual.”
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As for Latin…
"But if, in any layman who is indeed imbued with literature, ignorance of the Latin language, which we can truly call the 'catholic' language, indicates a certain sluggishness in his love toward the Church, how much more fitting it is that each and every cleric should be adequately practiced and skilled in that language!" - Pius XI
"Let us realize that this remark of Cicero (Brutus 37, 140) can be in a certain way referred to [young lay people]: 'It is not so much a matter of distinction to know Latin as it is disgraceful not to know it.'" - St. John Paul II
Grant unto thy Church, we beseech Thee, O merciful God, that She, being gathered together by the Holy Ghost, may be in no wise troubled by attack from her foes. O God, who by sin art offended and by penance pacified, mercifully regard the prayers of Thy people making supplication unto Thee,and turn away the scourges of Thine anger which we deserve for our sins. Almighty and Everlasting God, in whose Hand are the power and the government of every realm: look down upon and help the Christian people that the heathen nations who trust in the fierceness of their own might may be crushed by the power of thine Arm. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. R. Amen.
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Haha bravo! “Tu es Petrus . . .” It seems that God has it all under control after all.
That won’t happen today. If I had the time, I would write an article that defines the Church today as being divided by the Living Church and the Church of Power. The living Church is young, vibrant, intelligent. It is found in some dioceses, among some bishops and in orthodox and traditional communities. The Church of Power is old, ideological and, since it has little sway among the youth (it does not give life), it must rely on power to get it’s way. We see this with the appointment of bishops. There are a few ideological appointments that stand out and the rest are of fairly nice, bland administrators who will not stand up to the ideologues.
In the short term this is bad news, but since the living Church does not buy the thin theology and the ideology, the long term prognosis is more hopeful.
Wait, I’m confused. He says, “Anche non so se potrei bene spiegarmi nella vostra…(corrects himself) la nostra lingua Italiana–se mi sbaglio, mi corrigerete.” Which means loosely, “Also I don’t know if I can explain myself well in your…our Italian language–if I blunder, you must correct me.”
Isn’t he referring to the idea that if he trips over his tongue trying to speak Italian, they will correct him? Obviously we can infer a certain humility and willingness to be corrected from that, but are we reading more into this than necessary due to circumstances?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m as frustrated as any over what is happening just now, but I don’t think this is really what we are making it out to be…
roma: exactly. Just a touch of Zed-ian humor. Personally I put my trust in the Petrine promise, and am not worried. The full quote, as I am sure most know below.
“Tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam mean et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum”
(“You are ‘Rock’ and on this rock I will build my Church, to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven.” Mt 16:18)
@giovanni–
Yes, I too take great solace in Christ’s promise that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church. But boy, some days I can still smell the stench blowing in from there. Sigh.
It was refreshing to watch this clip, knowing what became of the papacy of which that was the incipit. The last time I heard those words being spoken, I had great hope for the future, but have experienced only heaviness of heart.
I keep praying!!!
Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love.
V. Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created.
R. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray. O God, Who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant us in the same Spirit to be truly wise, and ever to rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ our Lord.
Amen.
I got a little misty eyed seeing this. Sure, he should have granted wide use of the TLM, but John Paul certainly knew where the rails were…and he was a saint!
There is an increasing number of people who would like to be supporters of this “fraternal” correction of the Pope. According to the published list of signatories of this correctio filialis there is only one bishop who is a signatory and that is +Bernard Fellay of the SSPX and he has signed for the whole of the SSPX. However, I do know at least one other bishop who wants to add his name and that is +Rene Henry Gracida DD, Bishop Emeritus of the diocese of Corpus Christi. I know that because he has sent me an email from his blog Abyssus Abyssum Invocat telling me that he has added his name.
That strikes me as being rather humble.
Is it possible for lay folk to sign on to the correction
An electrifying moment. In Italy it is remembered the way we remember “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.”
Also, remember the context: The sudden surprise of the first non-Italian pope in centuries.
Dear Egyptian,
You can send a message to info@correctiofilialis.org. If, unlike me, you have relevant credentials, I am sure they would be happy to add your name to the signatories. Otherwise you might prefer, like me, to show your support by signing the petition at this address: https://www.change.org/p/petition-support-by-the-catholic-laity-for-the-filial-correction-of-pope-francis
I remember that day, I was living in Italy at the time. I second what donato2 said. We Italians just loved it when he addressed the crowd in our own language. What made him particularly endearing was that he made a slight mistake, corrigerete” instead of correggerete. The mistake was obviously influenced by the Latin “corrigere.”
I’m Italian, so I think I can say something here.
I remember pretty well this scene, even though in 1978 I was only 15.
I would make some points.
First, when he asked for correction, Saint John Paul was referring to the mistakes he could make expressing himself in a language that wasn’t his mother tongue (even though he spoke it really fluently). [OF COURSE HE WAS!]
Second, as pointed out above, he did make a mistake in the very sentence where he asked for such correction, as he said “corrigerete” (influenced by the Latin “corrigere”, that is “to correct”) instead of “correggerete” (from the Italian “correggere”). I have to say that I always suspected that this error, given the very good knowledge that he had of Italian, even before becoming Pope, was made on purpose, to gain some benevolence by the flock. I’m not sure, anyway.
Third, and most important, from what I know about Saint John Paul II, I have some doubt that he would have been very open to receive correction. His fame was that he would surely listen to the other people (and, I think, never deny an udience), but then decide on his own. [Quite an assumption.]
The main point, in all this discussion (and also in other discussions about what Pope Francis says and does), is not, mainly, whether he is humble and open to correction, but whether his behavior and his words are really always in line with the Gospel or not (and the thing that this may be put in discussion is, in itself, very disturbing), and, also, why doesn’t he answer explicitly certain questions (while he answers a lot of other questions on the planes).
I am pretty sure that Pope John Paul, if confronted with some discussion about what he was teaching, would have made his thought plain clear, and also explained it according to the Gospel and to the deposit of Tradition (as he did in Familiaris Consortio to explain the prohibition of receive the Eucharist for civilly remarried spouses). You could not like what he was saying… but there would not be any doubt about the contents.
Can the same be said about Pope Francis?
I have to say that I always suspected that this error, given the very good knowledge that he had of Italian, even before becoming Pope, was made on purpose, to gain some benevolence by the flock. I’m not sure, anyway.
We all can’t know, of course. But you can speak a language well if you don’t have to think about the language; just about the content of what you are going to say say. And if someone is able to do just that, and know Italian well and does of course know that the word is “corregere” or “costruzione” or whatever, then especially if one is good enough to just speak the language, without the internal translation thought process, it is rather hard not to instinctively say “corrigere” or “construzione” if one isn’t Italian. (And I wouldn’t take bets that one cannot at all hear any other consonant (cosonant?) between the u and the z.)
I see what you did there…
Great video and timeless quote.