On 24 Nov, Wednesday, Bishop Tobin of Providence, Rhode Island will be on Bill O’Reilly’s show on FoxNews.
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Can we just thank God for all the good bishops, who are in the limelight, on national television, in the newspapers, online and thereby doing what bishops are called to do-proclaim and defend the Gospel? I cannot remember a time in recent history when so much national attention was being given to the leaders of the Church in the United States. Even though horrible decisions are being made (Washington DC City Council, for example), and persecution will increase, most likely, this is really a “mini-springtime” for Truth in the public forum. Many people will be moved to seek the Truth and defend it through these interviews. It is exciting to see our leaders on the front lines, presenting real Catholic teaching to all who want to hear. Let us support these men with our prayers and pray that such interest in Church leaders and Church teaching remains in the forefront of reporting in the media.
I trust O’Reilly will be more professional than the despicable Chris Matthews was tonight!
Bishop Tobin did an interview on Hardball tonight and more than held his own against Matthews when he wasn’t being browbeaten by the host’s insistence that the Bishop answer the same question over and over, or when Matthews was essentially claiming that there’s no link between morality and the law, and the kicker: if the Church isn’t willing to suggest legal penalties to enforce against those who procure abortions or participate in them, then it should have nothing to do with public policy on abortion. But wait! Morality has no place in public policy according to the same Chris Matthews!
I’m so proud of our hierarchy right now.
Bill O’reilly is a lapsed catholic as well. He believes in abortion too and you can bet that he will be preachy as hell to the bishop. he never was kind to clergy and more than once have I seen him yell and lecture cleargy and “kindness” and what to do about the church.
It was frustrating to watch Hardball last night. I hate to watch what our media calls “debate”. At one point, Chris says, “Go ahead.” As soon as Bishop Tobin tried to speak, Cras… Chris was shouting him down again. It wasn’t a debate and it certainly wasn’t “civilized”.
However, the question of penalties if/when abortion is criminalized is probably one we should consider if we wish to weigh in on abortion. I had never really given it any serious thought before last night.
That topic, the potential penalties to be levied on the abortionist and/or the mother, has to be the “third rail” of the whole abortion issue. Recommend even a minute of jail time for the mother…watch the fur fly!
Back when abortion was illegal, it was always the doctor who performed abortions who was punished with jail time or loss of their medical license. Although I don’t personally remember too much of the pre-Roe era (as I was only 9 years old at the time) I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of a single instance in which a woman was jailed for having an abortion.
Wasn’t the basic idea back then that abortionists were taking advantage of women “in trouble,” and that she was simply another victim of the crime?
Also, weren’t early feminists like Susan B. Anthony totally against abortion, and in favor of punishing doctors who exploited women in that fashion?
24Nov09 is Tuesday by my calendar. So is +Tobin on tonight?
I watched part of Bishop Tobin’s interview on Hardball. If I may offer a suggestion to His Excellency, the next time a TV-talking-Marxist asks what legislation you would offer to support life issues if you were a member of Congress, you could say you would start with Rep. Bob Dornan’s Human Life Amendment. And then go from there. Bob Dornan offered his Human Life Amendment at the beginning of every session of Congress to which he was elected until he was suspiciously defeated by Loretta Sanchez.
bookworm,
My answer to all your questions would be “yes”; but since abortion was covered by state law there might be exceptions.
My principle would be “legally punish the receiver, not the payer, of the money”.
I have mixed thoughts about Bishops going on programs hosted by the likes of Matthews, O’Reily and most of the rest of the “interviewers”. On the one hand it is an opportunity for the BPs to spread the message regarding the moral issue. However, that is predicated on the interviewer letting them speak and most of the interviewers have an agenda , won’t let the Bp speak, and will do their best to ridicule the Church’s position.
Re the penalty issue bookworm’s statement about what it was like pre-RvW is pretty accurate. I was in law enforcement at the time and I know how abortion was treated in one state at that time. I cannot ever recall the mother being prosecuted but doctors were for charges ranging from voluntary manslaughter to murder (usually second degree). In some states today the murder of a pregnant mother in which the fetus also dies is treated in much the same way with count two (the death of the fetus) ranging from manslaughter to murder.
If one thinks about it though in a procured abortion (if abortion is illegal) both the mother and the doctor should be charged. If nothing more the mother is an accomplice in the criminal act.
We have a long way to go before criminal penalties are an issue in abortion cases. Right now the focus is simply on preventing tax money from being used to pay for them. I suspect it will be years before RvW is overturned and abortion itself becomes a criminal act.
I would hope viewer write Mr. Matthews on his horrid treatment of Bp. Tobin last night. Mr. Matthew’s came off as an arogant blow hard. Matthews consistenly brings guests on his show just to ruff them up with his whining and yelling. I use to like Matthews but he has changed greatly since the age of Obama. Its difficult to imagine that Mr. Matthews is a product of Catholic schooling.
Fr. Z it would be great if you’d have a post on the Tobin/Matthews squable last night, maybe you could get a transcript to fisk since fisking video is not as productive.
Does anyone still use the expression he or she ‘should be ashamed of themselves’? Mr. Matthews should be ashamed of himself. I don’t know how Bishop Tobin managed to sit there and let Chris Matthews lecture him (can you imagine?) about the Church should have nothing to do with politics, law-making, etc. Istead of talking about the conflict between Patrick Kennedy’s Catholic identity and his stance on abortion, Matthews tries to get the Bishop to say what would you have the punishment be for abortion, what would the law look like, what would be the jail sentence? Sen. Kennedy is the one who threw down the public gauntlet against the Catholic Church regarding the Bishop’s 2007 letter asking the Senator to refrain from receiving Holy Communion. The Bishop sure wasn’t going to let him get away with his little rant about the Catholic Church not wanting everyone to have health care just because of abortion, i.e. tax-payer funded baby killing.
Bishop Tobin handled himself most graciously, I don’t know how. But he sure didn’t lower himself down to Mr. Matthews’ level.
Bishop Tobin deserves our respect and admiration and most of all our prayers. He’s gonna be taking a beating over all of this in the MSM.
St. Michael the Archangel, defend him in battle..
John 654, the only email address I could find to use is
hardball@msnbc.com
I communicated my displeasure to them last night.
With Bp.Tobin on O’Reilley tonight, Bill might learn a few things about his Catholic faith, but like all so many, if he dosen’t want to listen, learn, and embrace the truth, he won’t. But think of the millions who will be listening, and will be hearing the truth of the Catholic faith.
It will be interesting, to be sure. O’Reilley is himself a bit of a “cafeteria catholic” — though not, I believe, to the extent that Matthews is. I have little doubt that the good bishop will express himself very well. God bless him!
Unfortunately, with all the negative attention and inaccurate reporting that’s gone on about this issue, I fear it will cause our spineless bishops to burrow even deeper into the sand. None of them has the courage to take the kind of heat Bishop Tobin is getting. Shouldn’t we all write him to express out gratitude for his defense of the faith?
Wait, Matthews is a CATHOLIC?!?!
Remember-the public nature of his debate began a couple of weeks ago when Patrick Kennedy gave an internet TV interview when he said that “The Catholic Church has it all wrong” when it comes to healthcare and abortion. This statement was then aired on all the local TV outlets.
Bishop Tobin then felt constrained to respond to Kennedy clearly focusing on the abortion aspect and essentially not making a judgement on anything else in the legislation. He has maintained that stance (as he should) clearly and without being personal or vindictive. He has led his sheep “ad gregem non ad lupum” as a good bishop ought.
As to the criminal penalty issue, isn’t an abortionist like a hitman and the person paying for it, an accessory to murder. The female receiving the abortion need not to go to a correctional institution as it is not likely she needs the type of reform offered by such an institution, nor does society need to have such a woman locked up for purposes of protecting society from her. The Doctor, on the other hand would be subject to such penalties. The woman, on the other hand should perhaps be placed under house arrest and lose some freedoms and privileges and perhaps perform a significant measure of community service.
Gordon,
I am directing this question at you since you brought it up, but welcome comments from anyone.
Anyway, are the things you mention – rehabilitation of the offender and protection of society – the only reason that a just society imposes criminal penalties? Is there no retribution/atonement aspect of Justice? I know you mentioned some other “lesser” penalties such as house arrest, but these do not seem like quite the same thing.
Regarding legal action against women who have had abortions, most abortionists misrepresent what it is they actually do. They tell women who are already being pressured that what they are carrying is “just a clump of tissue.” They offer no other options, no reassurance, no hope. Does this absolve the woman of all blame? Absolutely not….but it does place the burden of blame on a physician who should know better.
And when public officials such as Patrick Kennedy continually tell society that the Catholic Church is wrong about abortion, he is definitely causing scandal. This steady drum-beat of doubt just promotes the cause of justification for those considering abortion as the only option.
Women are indeed punished for the rest of their lives with sterility, unresolved guilt, psychological problems, broken marriages, alcoholism, drug abuse…to name a few. I know what I am talking about. Thousands of us are now going back into the public square to tell our stories so that this insanity will stop. This, in part, is our penance. Thanks be to God for His great mercy!
I have mixed emotions about Bishops being interviewed on TV, with the obvious exception of Raymond Arroyo. I watched Chris Matthews insult Bishop Tobin (Ecce Sacerdos Magnus) last night, and I fully expect O’Reilly to follow suit with His Excellency tonight. I cringed as I watched O’Reilly demean and insult Father C. John McCloskey a couple years ago. It’s hard to watch. God bless these modern day crusaders for Christ.
I remember seeing Father Thomas Euteneuer, the president of Human Life International, a while back on Sean Hannity’s show. Hannity asked Father Euteneuer if he would deny him Holy Communion because he publicly supported contraception, to which Father Euteneuer said that he would deny Sean Hannity Holy Communion.
MichaelJ I agree that there is more to criminal justice than just rehabilitation, however was thinking that the punishments i mentioned for the woman obtaining an abortion would be intende to serve those purposes. Since we would be moving from a society that allows abortion to one that does not, we probably need to approach the issue of punishment for the mother in a different way. After years of a true prolife culture, one could easily see that more stringent punishment would be accepted, if not demanded.
O’Reilly will treat bishop Tobin better than Matthtews did, but not by much. O’Reilly is a blowhard.
Chris Matthews very forcefully articulated the problems with the Church imposing its moral authority on the secular jobs of our lawmakers. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anyone do this as provacatively (or effectively) as Matthews did when he confronted Bishop Tobin. Tobin was obviously unprepared.
Dr. Martin Luther King is the leading American example of how to bring morality to the legislative level. His nonviolent drive was one of the most successful expressions of Christian social action in the history of the United States. Bishop Tobin would do well to read as much as he can about the life of Dr. King.
Here’s the video:
http://allhands-ondeck.blogspot.com/2009/11/bishop-tobin-appears-on-oreilly-factor.html
Unlike Chris Matthews, Bill O’Reilly was respectful and let the Bishop speak.
Dear people, do you really think abortion in the United States has anything to do with the “mother”?
In Viet-nam between 1964 and 1975, the United States military, with 500,000 troops, Agent Orange, B-52s, fighter-bombers,etc. killed 2 million Vietnamese. We have aborted 50 MILLION AMERICANS since January, 1973. Do you think it coincidental that Obama is BOTH PRO ABORTION and BLACK? He is the Judas Goat, just as was Faye Wattleton (black) when she was the president of Planned Parenthood. Our Gov’t. pays Planned Parenthood $300 million per year to perform abortions! Why do you think this is the sine qua non of the Democratic Party? Our Government wants it and that is why Chris Matthews had to beat Bp. Tobin to a pulp. All opposition to abortion has to be destroyed.
I remember when Terry Jeffrey called B.O’R a relativist when he equated homosexuality with eating meat on Friday. To wit, wrong for some alright for others.
He shows the Fulton Sheen was right when he said the rarest thing in the world today is an argument. In lieu of a real argument, Bill will give you: a tilt of the head while shaking left to right, squinting his eyes and saying: “C’mon!”
Since when is denying a public and obstinant opponent of Church teaching “punishment?” Couldn’t the bishop be “protecting” Kennedy’s soul from further damage?
I’ll bet that O’Reilly still doesn’t get the distinction between capital punishment and abortion and that he will try that tact again when the issue comes up in the future.
Apparently Bill O’Reilly is Catholic, too. Are there any Catholic political commentators that are actually Catholic? The closest I can find is Stephen Colbert…
Pat Buchanan.