From the UK’s best Catholic weekly, the Catholic Herald, comes this from William Oddie.
Our Lady of Quito prophesied that in the 60s there would be spiritual catastrophe in the Church; then, through the faith of the just, a ‘complete restoration’
But first, there would be a total corruption of morals in society; this would affect the Church, too
By William Oddie
[…]
Early in the morning of January 21, 1610, the Archangels St. Michael, St. Gabriel and St. Raphael appeared to Mother Mariana. Then Our Lady appeared to her and predicted many things about our own times: this is part of what Mother Mariana afterwards related that she told her:
“…. I make it known to you that from the end of the 19th century and shortly after the middle of the 20th century…. the passions will erupt and there will be a total corruption of customs (morals)….
“They will focus principally on the children in order to sustain this general corruption. Woe to the children of these times! It will be difficult to receive the Sacrament of Baptism, and also that of Confirmation…
“As for the Sacrament of Matrimony… it will be attacked and deeply profaned… The Catholic spirit will rapidly decay; the precious light of the Faith will gradually be extinguished… Added to this will be the effects of secular education, which will be one reason for the dearth of priestly and religious vocations.
“The Sacrament of Holy Orders will be ridiculed, oppressed, and despised… The Devil will try to persecute the ministers of the Lord in every possible way; he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation and will corrupt many of them. These depraved priests, who will scandalize the Christian people, will make the hatred of bad Catholics and the enemies of the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church fall upon all priests…
“Further, in these unhappy times, there will be unbridled luxury, which will ensnare the rest into sin and conquer innumerable frivolous souls, who will be lost. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, nor modesty in women. In this supreme moment of need of the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent.”
In a subsequent apparition, Our Lady told Mother Mariana that these apparitions were not to become generally known until the twentieth century.
[… HERE Fr. Z cuts quite a bit… ]
The most important thing to understand is that it would be just wrong to despair at all this. The fightback is underway. For, in the end, Our Lady of Quito’s prophecies do not end with spiritual catastrophe. In a later apparition she foretold that “In order to free men from bondage to these heresies, those whom the merciful love of My Most Holy Son will destine for that restoration will need great strength of will, constancy, valor and much confidence in God. To test this faith and confidence of the just, there will be occasions when everything will seem to be lost and paralyzed. This, then, will be the happy beginning of the complete restoration.”
I believe we have seen that faith and valour over the last half century, above all in the present Holy Father and his heroic predecessor; and that that complete restoration has indeed happily begun.
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Oh Father I am so happy to see this post. Our Lady of Good Success has been approved since 1632.
For those who would like the whole story, here is a link for you, a PDF file. http://www.chiesaviva.com/413%20en.pdf . There was a lot of work done to translate Mother Mariana’s story – I believe it was 400 pages written by her confessor.
The caveat is that some groups might use her message to promote their own cause or conjecture…please just focus on Our Lady’s words.
“I believe we have seen that faith and valour over the last half century, above all in the present Holy Father and his heroic predecessor; and that that complete restoration has indeed happily begun.”
Amen, Fr. Z, amen!
Dear Father Z, thank you so much for posting this today. I am suffering from losing friends in the SSPX who may not want to come over, to friends who are following false seers, which I write about all the time on my blog, and women who insist in dressing and acting like men. On top of this, I witness still abuses in the NO in some parts of England. One must always see beyond the immediate moment to the Grace of purification. We individually are called to perfection with the help of the Church. I hope we all pray for our Holy Father and priests like you daily. And when I think of young men choosing to go into the seminary and become priests in these times, I am so proud of them. Despite all, it is a good time to be alive.
May I quote a desert father. “The holy Fathers were making predictions about the last generation. They said ‘What have we ourselves done?’ One of them, the great Abba Ischyrion replied, ‘We ourselves have fulfilled the commandments of God.’ The others replied, ‘And those who come after us, what will they do?’ He said, ‘They will struggle to achieve half our works.’ They said, ‘And to those who come after them, what will happen?’ He said, ‘THE MEN OF THAT GENERATION WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH ANY WORKS AT ALL AND TEMPTATION WILL COME UPON THEM; AND THOSE WHO WILL BE APPROVED IN THAT DAY WILL BE GREATER THAN EITHER US OR OUR FATHERS.’ “(orthodoxwiki and other sources)
That generation is you and me and my son and all who follow the Church today. We shall persevere.
In the apparition of Feburary 2, 1634, Our Lady also speaks of a “prelate” who will restore the priestly and religious spirit:
The restoration will come from within the hierarchy, and the sign of this prelate will be the fostering of many ecclesiastical and religious vocations.
The picture posted above is of La Dolorosa, also in Quito, but this is not the image of Our Lady of Good Success to whom the above prophecies are attributed.
Here is a link to the story of the miraculous image of the Dolorosa:
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/del-colegio.htm
Excelsior Tours offers tours several times a year to all the Catholic shrines in Ecuador and in Columbia.
Blessed Elena Aiello (made blessed by Pope Benedict XVI) and Venerable Mary Agreda (Clement X) have had similar visions. The book “Trial, Tribulation & Triumph” discusses Our Lady of Good Success and these other visions and more. I’ll keep praying we get through this era with minimal chastisement.
I must say how happy I am to have subscribed to The Catholic Herald because it really is the best Catholic weekly.
Our Lady of Quito, pray for us in these times of difficulty.
“In this supreme moment of need of the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent”
This is precisely why I cannot understand the current cause for beatification of Pope Paul VI.
There are some very good photos at the pdf above, showing that this particular statue holds a crozier, and why. I thought it might be an abbess’ crozier, but apparently it was a gift from the bishop back when.
I like this apparition and I’ve done some research into it, but I’m disturbed that the actual books from her confessor aren’t online. Given the distortions and mistranslations that have crept into even Fatima prophecies, which are recent and well-known, I suspect that the same thing will be true of an apparition which is allegedly so voluble and specific to modern concerns. The PDF link is very nice as far as it goes, however.
I like a clear prophecy as much as anybody. But I want to see sources, not quotes on webpages that don’t name things like editions or page references. (I’m also frustrated, because I can’t remember where I wrote up all my research, and there was a lot of stuff I wrote up at the same time about nun writers in Spanish colonial areas.)
Our Dude of Central Maryland prophesies that there will be a decline in traditional religion and an expansion of civil rights, and the world will grow in knowledge and tolerance for the freedoms of humankind. But first there will be much turmoil and gnashing of teeth from adherents of ancient Semitic traditions. And also, the weather will continue to be bad because I saw my shadow.
I was reading about this recently and although the content of it is excellent, apparently it is disuputed whether the private revelations quoted are real (what I read was that they are not attested to in accounts of Mother Mariana before the early 20th c, nor do original documents exist). If it is real it seems to have a lot of value, even if not real as being a private revelation, I would say the content of it has value.
This actually gives me a lot of hope. It’s heartening to hear that the worst, most hopeless things we are experiencing now are signs of good to come. As long as there’s a light at the end of the tunnel I can keep fighting the good fight.
Poor Paul VI…he can’t catch a break
It is more important than ever to pray for priests.
Suburbanbanshee, check out http://www.traditioninaction.org/OLGS/olgshome.htm for more information. You might be able to contact Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D directly for the original documents, the translator and promoter of Quito’s Our Lady of Good Success.
As I remember, the crozier was Our Lady’s choice as she told Mother Mariana to honor her as the Shepherdess of the convent. The statue itself is an interesting story.
mamajen: I have found these dire predictions SO COMFORTING. All our troubles are allowed by Heaven’s plan. Our Lady comes to warn us what to expect – the details of the prophesies are astonishing in their accurate portrayal of what exactly we are enduring today. She reveals the roots and the symptoms of our suffering.
And in the end, good guys win. “in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph”
Also let me add that Our Lady of Good Success has rendered me very prompt help several times. The speed has been shocking! I guess Our Lady has been waiting to be our help for these times under this title.
It is nice to see that ex-Catholics can be tolerant enough to allow people to express their own beliefs without snarky ridicule. There will never be an expansion of human rights if the Judeo-Christian ethic is supressed. Also, I’m pretty sure you meant that the weather is bad because of the man-made global warming that all of us breeders so ignorantly impose on our more rational, childless neighbors.
I don’t think we are though the worst yet and I don’t think JPII or BXVI are who are referred to in the prophecy. I believe it will get MUCH worse before it gets better. I think you will see wholesale persecution of the Church, religious emprisoned, etc. before we see a restoration.
As much as people dislike the SSPX, I believe they will be part of the solution to todays problem. The Church, as it is now, is full of members who do not hold the tennents of the faith. There are clergy that openly support homosexual unions, contraception, etc. These people are in “good standing” in the Church and those who hold the traditional tennents are ridiculed, scorned, etc.
The Church is Germany and Austria is on the brink of a split with Rome due to power struggles, etc. If you take a good look at the Church you will see Bishop against Bishop, Cardinal against Cardinal. I believe our Holy Mother had something to say about this in a prior apparition.
Ss. Joachim and Anne, ora pro nobis. +JMJ+
@postcatholic———-“Ridicule is generally made use of to laugh Men out of Virtue and good Sense, by attacking every thing that is Solemn and Serious, Decent and Praiseworthy in Human Life.” —-Joseph Addison
Catholics, in case you forgot, believe the Mother of God to be their own Mother. Indeed we love her even more than our own earthly mothers. For you to insult Her with your sophomoric humor is tantamount to slapping Her in our presence. Have the common decency to refrain from insulting our Mother!
Moon is right. From the text it is more likely that Benedikt XVI and Joh-P.II are not the ones who built up the Church.
” In this supreme moment of need of the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent.”
That seems to indicate that a Pope (or the Popes) are silent instead of speaking (and acting) against the destruction of the Church.
Some “prelate” will renew the priesthood, our Lady says.
definition of prelate from Catholic Encyclopedia
(1) those who have quasi-episcopal, independent jurisdiction over a special territory separated from the territory of a diocese (prœlatus nullius, sc. diœceseos), as is the case with the abbeys and provostships of monasteries (Monte Cassino, Einsiedein, St. Maurice in the Canton of Wallis, etc.);
(2) those who have offices in the administration of dioceses, and enjoy an independent and proper jurisdiction (e.g., the earlier archdeacons, the provosts and deans of cathedral and collegiate churches, in so far as these still exercise a regular, personal jurisdiction;
(3) abbots and provosts of monasteries, even when they administer no territory with episcopal powers, but have merely the permanent, supreme distinction of the monastery;
(4) titular bishops, both those who in the vicariates Apostolic and other territories have supreme ecclesiastical administration, and those who have simply received episcopal consecration without jurisdiction over a special district, such as certain officials in Rome, consecrating bishops, etc.;
(5) the highest officials of the Roman offices, who, in addition to the cardinals, have a prominent share in the direction of the Roman Church, and thus have a special relation to the person of the pope.
mysticalrose said,
““In this supreme moment of need of the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent”
This is precisely why I cannot understand the current cause for beatification of Pope Paul VI.”
Well, it seems to me that Humanae Vitae was an instance of speaking up rather than falling silent.
“I believe we have seen that faith and valour over the last half century, above all in the present Holy Father and his heroic predecessor; and that that complete restoration has indeed happily begun.”
Amen!
“Well, it seems to me that Humanae Vitae was an instance of speaking up rather than falling silent.”
Indeed. God sends us the Popes the Church needs at the time.
Indulgentiam, any device of speech can be used in such a way. I did have a point, which was this: The prognostication of “Our Lady of Quito” seems to be vague and to confirm the prejudices of the audience which accepts it as a supernatural communication.
Actually, the prognostication of Our Lady of Quito seems amazingly specific, referring in 1610 to something that would (and apparently did) happen shortly after the middle of the 20th century. I wonder if there was even a single other early 17th century speculation (religious or otherwise) about the middle of the 20th century.
However, I don’t know enough about this “prognostication” to have a settled opinion of it. But–in regard to Indulgentiam’s “common decency” (@ 11:51 am)–I keep my personal opinion of Medjugorje to myself when a guest in the home of a friend who is devoted to it.
PostCatholic—-the quote says “Ridicule is generally” not the only form so i don’t see your point. and it seems to me that you should have made your point exactly the way you just did without the backhanded slap to our Blessed Mother. You don’t get to insult our Mother and then say “oh well i did have a point” if i had carelessly insulted your mother the very least i would do is apologize.
Father, sorry to pour cold water on this, but there appear to be serious questions about the validity of the information in Oddie’s article. There have been some lengthy discussions on the Catholic Answers forums, there is more information than I can summarize (I recommend going there and doing a search); but the key point which I have seen is that there are no period documents describing Mother Mariana’s visions and revelations, the earliest documentation is from the 20th century. And all the information about the apparitions having been approved seems to derive from the writings of one Marian Horvat, who apparently is a traditionalist who denies the validation of Vatican II, the Novus Ordo etc.
And there is a Saint Mariana of Quito, mentioned in Butler’s Lives, but apparently she was a different person from Mother Mariana the visionary.
Finally I would point out that some of the things related about Mariana are quite extraordinary to say the least – having died and been resurrected twice?? Having suffered the torments of the damned for five years?
Check out the following: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=598847 and note especially the posts from “Warloff”.
Excuse me, and by apologize i mean apologize to the Blessed Virgin Mary
Hello Postcatholic,
“Our Dude of Central Maryland prophesies that there will be a decline in traditional religion and an expansion of civil rights, and the world will grow in knowledge and tolerance for the freedoms of humankind.”
No, doubt, no doubt. But some freedoms will have to be thrown over the side first.
The idea that the history of the Church is a continual recapitulation of the cycle from Creation to Fall to Redemption has roots far deeper than the 17th century. For example, prophetic denunciations of clerical and social corruption and subsequent visions of glorious renewal were an integral component in St. Hildegard of Bingen’s visions of church reform in the 12th century. Those visions for the future state of the Church find striking parallels in Joseph Ratzinger’s own post-conciliar visions for reform — and might give some indication as to why he has chosen to declare St. Hildegard a Doctor of the Church.
It will get far worse before it gets better and will escalate quickly.
Our Lady was the vessel for His first coming, she will also be the vessel for His return into the hearts and minds of all people.
We can only hope and pray that we are near the restoration. I believe it has begun – please God!
http://supertradmum-etheldredasplace.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/st-joachim-and-private-revelations.html and follow the series, which is long and detailed.
Pope Paul V approved devotion to Our Lady of Quito, which is not the same thing as approving the prophesies. There are different levels of approvals in the Church: for example, as saint or blessed may be approved but not all her writings. In the case of St. Mariana de Jesus Flores, the Lily of Quito, whose feast day is May 26th, she is not the same person as Mother Mariana Torres, who is the visionary. I have not found any site which shows that her, Mariana Torres revelations have been approved. Therefore, we see a devotion to Mary being approved, but not the revelations, which is not that uncommon. Also, Mother Mariana Torres is an incorruptible and her cause is still being considered in the Vatican for canonization. Her autobiography was approved by the bishop who requested it. I have seen websites calling her venerable, but I have not found a release from the Vatican as to that fact. If someone has, that would be helpful.
Fair enough: If you took my persiflage as an insult to your Blessed Mother, Indulgentiam, I do apologize.
Supertradmum, that was a helpful clarification.
…that He have pity on His ministers and that He put an end to such fatal times, by sending to His Church the prelate who will restore the spirit of His priests.
That Pope has not come yet. The Church is still awaiting for this great prelate and Pope of restoration. It is not Pope Benedict.
Things have gotten better, but the restoration has not come yet. The restoration will only begin when major catastrophe hits the world. The last half century has seen the truimph of Modernism and clerics formed with the vey face of hell. There have been absolute devils in the episcopacy of the Church and in her heirarchy.
Popes Paul VI and John Paul II were part of the problem. Their papacies were utter failures. Everything collapsed under their watch. they were in no way part of the restoration. The darkest times of the Church that Our Lady of Good Success was warning abou,t happened during their reigns.
The title of the post is incorrect. Our Lady of Quito and Our Lady of Good Success are two different Marian titles and invocations. The messages posted by Fr. Z, were given by Our Lady of Good Success to Sr. Mariana de Jesus Torres. Our Lady of Quito is venerated in Ecuador under a different image and title, from the image and messages of Our Lady of Good Success.
“As much as people dislike the SSPX, I believe they will be part of the solution to todays problem.”
You’re probably right, but until they are in perfect communion with the Apostolic See, as opposed to what has been termed imperfect communion, they remain part of the problem.
but until they are in perfect communion with the Apostolic See, as opposed to what has been termed imperfect communion, they remain part of the problem
There is no such thing as prefect communion. There is no such thing as full communion, partial communion, or impartial communion. You are using words invented by Modernists. The whole issue over “communion” and “degrees of communion” is Modernist terminology and Modernist theology invented the condemned Modernists of the ’40s-’60s.
Are the SSPX Catholic? -Yes.
Are the SSPX inside the Church? -Yes
Have Ordinary Jurisdiction and faculties? -No
Have any type of Jurisdiction?- An open question for debate and argument.
@PostCatholic– The Church teaches that Our Lady is pure mercy, i’m sure she heard you :)
thank you for the new word persiflage: Light and slightly contemptuous mockery or banter. how to work that word into conversations should keep me thinking the rest of the day :)
I’ve read about these apparitions before in other books, and I finally bought a couple books about them and found them very uplifting.
According to Our Lady of Good Success – Prophecies for Our Times – A Word to the Reader (n.p.) Mother Mariana’s last testament (her will) left her life story, “written under obedience, to her spiritual directors and bishops. This account received the approbation of Bishop Pedro de Oviedo, the tenth bishop of Quito. After her death, her biography was also written by her spiritual director and confessor Friar Francis de Anguito, O.F.M.” These were preserved in the El Cuadernon.
In 1790 Fr. Manuel Souza Pereira wrote a 400 page book entitled The Admirable Life of Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres a Spanish Sister and One of the Foundresses of the Royal Convent of the Immaculate Conception of the City of St. Francis of Quito. In 1999, Marian T. Horvat. Ph.D. translated that book into English.
The apparitions were approved by the local Bishop of Quito in 1611, which is all that is required. We are not required to believe in any apparition, we are free to believe it happened or not.
Yes, it is obvious from the website that the publisher is an extreme traditionalist (I don’t know how extreme). I read Vol. 2 of The Admirable Life of Mother Mariana and did not notice any bias in the writing, only some in a few of the footnotes. The book itself was an obvious translation from very old writing, the style very dated and old fashioned. Take from that, what you will.
Until Rome approves an apparition, I ignore it. However, as indicated above, Pope Paul V approved the devotion to the statue, Our Lady of Good Success, or Our Lady of Good Help. Most websites are confused about the two nuns with similar names. See my note above. That the local bishop approved the visions is one step, and a good start. We have several false visionaries both living and recently dead who did not have that first approval.
Our Lady of Good Success is indeed a a Church approved aparition. Bishop Morlino of Madison Wis. even approved a new religious community in his diocese, titled the Franciscan Friars of Our Lady of Good Success. The founder is Fr. Isaac Relyea. He gives missions all over the country. Fr. Relyea lives a traditional penintential capuchin life and The Franciscan Friars of OLGS only celebrate the TLM. If any courageous and holy young men want a traditionalist religious life, he could use some good men.
St. Rafael says: Things have gotten better, but the restoration has not come yet. The restoration will only begin when major catastrophe hits the world. The last half century has seen the truimph of Modernism and clerics formed with the vey face of hell. There have been absolute devils in the episcopacy of the Church and in her heirarchy.
Why don’t the triumph of modernism and clerics formed with the very face of hell, and absolute devils in the episcopacy and the heirarchy, qualify as major catastrophe hitting the world?
@Miss Anita Moore, O.P
Why don’t the triumph of modernism and clerics formed with the very face of hell, and absolute devils in the episcopacy and the heirarchy, qualify as major catastrophe hitting the world?
Because the damage is not yet complete. I, personally, think you will see clerics arrested, jailed and potentially executed for preaching the truth. I believe you will see good Catholics, who reject homosexual marraige, abortion, etc. arrested, punished, disappeard, etc. I believe you will see Catholic churchs siezed by the state or by lawsuits.
Believe me it will get MUCH worse. I beleive MANY people will leave the faith. Many have left already, but still go to Church, this will be a formal rejection of the Church.
We see all of this happening already, but you can count on two hands the number of Bishops who are fighting to hold up the truths of the Catholic faith. Thankfully I am in Bishop Morlino’s diocese and he is one of those ten. I could really see him being a cardinal or more some day.
I also was happy to see this post as it offers hope at a time when there is far too much discouraging news both within and outside the Church.
Of course it is no surprise, but these are not unlike the prophesies of Our Lady of Akita in the early 1970s and which have been approved by the Church. But, then, when you read the propehsies, it’s no surprise most priests don’t want to talk about them.
St Raphael:
“The great pope has not yet come. It is not Pope Benedict”
I read in a book, “Prophecy for Today”. In chapter 5, The Great Monarch and Angelic Pastor. a new Emperor, a direct descendent of the great French kings will appear at the same time the Great and Holy Pope appears on the scene, and will come out of exile.
Interestingly, I read on the website, there is a man in France who is of this lineage—Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, house of Bourbon, born in 1974. He is a descendent of both, French and Spanish kings. If the Monarchy were still in force, he would be King Louis XX of France. He has twin boys, Louis, Duke of Burgundy, and Alphonse, Duke of Berry (Louis is the elder of the twins, making him the heir apparent). The book does, at one point, give the name of the revived king as Charles. If that be the case, we still have a ways to go. I’m not stating this as dogma, just what I read. Even if it turns out not to be completely true, it still makes for interesting reading. Again, this boils down to private revelation, and I know the Church’s teaching on private revelation.
@alanphipps
Humane Vitae is a brilliant and prophetic document. However, it’s composition alone hardly merits the beatification of its author. Whatever his good deeds, the “smoke of Satan” — that is, both liturgical and moral abuses as well as doctrinal ambiguities and lax discipline — entered the Church on Paul VI’s watch. And from what I have read (since I was not born during his reign) he did nothing fix this.
“Our Lady of Good Success is indeed a a Church approved aparition. Bishop Morlino of Madison Wis. even approved a new religious community in his diocese, titled the Franciscan Friars of Our Lady of Good Success. The founder is Fr. Isaac Relyea”
I attend some of Fr Isaac’s Masses and went on a retreat he led recently. The idea that the approval of his religious community (him the only member currently, though I pray more will join him) is an approval of a private revelation by that name is absurd. I am 100% sure Bishop Morlino did not investigate the alleged private revelation which of course was not in his diocese so he is not the one to make a decision in regards to it, he has not issued any statement about that private revelation, and may have had no idea there was a private revelation.
If a bishop approved an order called “The Franciscan Sisters of the Gospa” that does not equate to an approval of Medjugorje!
Dear @gambletrainman,
now I’m not commenting (to either side) on the authority of the texts you cite, which I don’t know. Just spinning on a bit these thoughts, for what is little more than the fun of it.
And here we go: Louis of Anjou is not the only pretender to the throne of France. He is actually a Spanish prince. He is, indeed, the chief of the House of Bourbon as a whole. But not heir of France; he would have been. Yet in the treaty of Utrecht, in the 1710s, the Spanish part of the family was excluded from rights in France.
Excluding all Spaniards, who is the heir to the throne of France? Henri, Count of Paris, via the line of King Louis Phillipe (even though the latter’s regime was illegitimate from the dynastic standpoint).
Henri is 79 years old. His eldest son, a certain Francois, is (according to Aunt Wikipedia) mentally disabled and has thus been excluded from the line of succession.
His second eldest son is named Jean Charles.
As a resident of the Diocese of Madison and Bp. Morlino, I support “Elizabeth D.’s” statement above with regard to the private revelation mentioned.
I, too, listen to Fr. Relyea’s homilies regularly at the TLM/EF Mass; he is a dynamite, orthodox priest. I wish him all the best in his new endeavor.
For trustworthy information regarding “Our Lady of Good Success,” see Matthew Arnold’s short video at http://www.promultismedia.net/OLGS.html. After viewing, click on the sidebar that says “Free Downloads” to find a short tract…be sure to read the fact page, not just the prayer.
Buen Suceso/Good Success means a happy ending, a good outcome.
I heard Matthew Arnold speak about this topic on our orthodox radio station here in town. I think his show was from EWTN.
I only had time to skim all the comments above, so please forgive me if I’m redundant.
A few notes:
“Our Lady of Good Success” should not be confused with “Our Lady of Good Help.” They are not the same at all.
Mary asked us to pray to her under the title of “Our Lady of Good Success.” I’m not sure where the idea “Our Lady of Quito” came from. Mary said that when things get really bad, as she predicted, we are to pray to her under the title “Good Success.” The time has certainly come to do this!
Buen Suceso/Good Success means a happy ending, a good outcome.
RE: Horvat’s translations. I was hesitant to trust them, because of the dubious status of Tradition in Action. I called Matthew Arnold and chatted with him about my concerns. He said Horvat is enough of a scholar that she had done an accurate translation from the Spanish primary sources into English.
This apparition has been approved by every bishop of Quito for 400 years. When this happens, it doesn’t need to be approved by Rome. That authority rightly belongs to the local bishop. (Things get trickier when the local bishop(s) do not approve and pilgrims start coming from all over the world, in disobedience. But that is not what is happening in Quito).
For more clarification on this point, here is an excerpt from Arnold’s tract:
The revelations of Our Lady of Good Success and devotion
to her miraculous Statue were first approved by Bishop Sal-
vador de Ribera in 1611. The devotion and apparitions have
been authorized and promoted by subsequent Bishops of
Quito up to our times.
In 1906, while remodeling the Convent, Mother Marianna’s
sarcophagus was opened and her body was discovered
whole and incorrupt.
On August 8, 1986 Archbishop Antonio J. Gonzales named
Msgr. Luis Cadena y Almeida as postulator for the cause of
Mother Marianna’s beatification.
On February 2, 1991, with approval from Rome, the Arch-
diocese of Quito performed a canonical coronation of Our
Lady of Good Success as “Queen of Quito.”
Sorry for the redundant sentence, above. I had trouble editing the comment.
@ElizabethD
The idea that the approval of his religious community (him the only member currently, though I pray more will join him) is an approval of a private revelation by that name is absurd.
I did not claim that approval of the name for religious community meant approval of the aparition itself. I said that OLGS was Church approved. Which it is. It was approved by the Church long before Fr. Relyea and Bishop Morlino. I mentioned that Bishop Morlino approved a community that had the name of an aparition that was already Church approved.
and may have had no idea there was a private revelation.
Nonsense. (using one my favorite Fr. Relyea lines) It is absolutely absurd to claim that a bishop would approve a religious community under the name of an aparition and have absolutely no clue about that aparition. How can you approve the Friars of OLGS and not even know what Our Lady of Good Success even is? Of course Bishop Morlino knows about the private revelation of OLGS. He approved the community. He talked to Fr. Relyea. Fr. Relyea must have talked to him about founding the community, about the name, and about the private revelation. It’s only natural.
@Miss Anita Moore, O.P
Why don’t the triumph of modernism and clerics formed with the very face of hell, and absolute devils in the episcopacy and the heirarchy, qualify as major catastrophe hitting the world?
Because that is a major catastrophe hitting the Church and not the world. There are punishments for the Church and then there are punishments for the world. A major catastrophe hitting the world would be a world wide natural disaster or World War III. We already have worldwide economies and states collapsing, but I think it will take something a lot worse to wake people up.
My comment is in moderation, probably because I put a website on it. In the meantime, google Pro Multis Media and see what Matthew Arnold has to say.
St. Rafael said “Our Lady of Good Success is indeed a a Church approved aparition. (sic)”
Please provide a citation indicating that the “Church approved” Our Lady of Good Success. Was something published in the diocesan newspaper? Was a communique promulgated with the bishop’s signature? Please substantiate your claim. Where is the evidence to support your statement?
Because Fr. Z is busy with his gang, I copied my post that’s in moderation, pasted it here, and broke up the website address. I hope that’s an ok thing to do…I think this is a very important issue.
For trustworthy information regarding “Our Lady of Good Success,” see Matthew Arnold’s short video at pro multis media. net /OLGS.html. After viewing, click on the sidebar that says “Free Downloads” to find a short tract…be sure to read the fact page, not just the prayer.
I heard Matthew Arnold speak about this topic on our orthodox radio station here in town. I think his show was from EWTN.
RE: Horvat’s translations. I was hesitant to trust them, because of the dubious status of Tradition in Action. I called Matthew Arnold and chatted with him about my concerns. He said Horvat is enough of a scholar that she had done an accurate translation from the Spanish primary sources into English.
I only had time to skim all the comments above, so please forgive me if I’m redundant.
A few notes:
“Our Lady of Good Success” should not be confused with “Our Lady of Good Help.” They are not the same at all.
Mary asked us to pray to her under the title of “Our Lady of Good Success.” I’m not sure where the idea “Our Lady of Quito” came from. Mary said that when things get really bad, as she predicted, we are to pray to her under the title “Good Success.” The time has certainly come to do this!
Buen Suceso/Good Success means a happy ending, a good outcome.
This apparition has been approved by every bishop of Quito for 400 years. When this happens, it doesn’t need to be approved by Rome. That authority rightly belongs to the local bishop. (Things get trickier when the local bishop(s) do not approve and pilgrims start coming from all over the world, in disobedience. But that is not what is happening in Quito).
For more clarification on this point, I’m putting an excerpt from Arnold’s tract on another post.
I have noticed, in reading some of the replies, continued public criticism and condemnation of some of our recent popes. Most notably one comment stated above by St. Rafael, “Popes Paul VI and John Paul II were part of the problem. Their papacies were utter failures.” This and other comments, not just in this particular post, sadden me. I do admit, I have in the past been critical myself.
Who are any of us to assume we know better than God? Who chooses the pope? It is not the Cardinals… it is the Holy Spirit. Only when enough of the Cardinals properly discern the will of the Holy Spirit is a new pope chosen. I think that to criticize the pope is to criticize God. When we consider the lengthy papacies of both Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II… do we think that God would give us so many years of failure? (But then, who are any of to think we can fully understand the will of God?)
People say Paul VI was a failure, and did little. He had much to say, but he did not have a friendly news media to send his message around the world. If you have a copy of the Summer 2012 issue of The Latin Mass magazine, I direct your attention to the article near the back, Paul VI and the Smoke of Satan, Forty Years Later. He had MUCH to say. However, there was no EWTN back then or other global Catholic network to spread his message. I wonder if much of what he said even got to the bishops around the world. Humanae Vitae face so much internal opposition, he was surrounded by the smoke of satan and had a (literally) hell of a battle!
Maybe, I think, that is why Pope John Paul II traveled so much. He knew the message wasn’t going to travel by the secular news media, so he had to take the message to the world himself. And he continued to do so even after Mother Angelica gave us EWTN.
And likewise, to publicly condemn a priest… …is to publicly condemn the repsentative of Christ… …is to publicly condemn Christ Himself.
Let me end this little bit of my most humble opinion by quoting a couple of great saints.
Detraction may easily become a mortal sin, and certainly is a mortal sin in important matters, where grave results are the consequence. St. Paul numbers it among those sins which close heaven against us. The Holy Ghost says the detractor is cursed by God, that he is an abomination before God and men. Detraction is great or small according to circumstances, or to the dignity of the person spoken of. It is a greater sin to make known the defects and faults of our superiors, our parents, of husband or wife, brothers, sisters, our relations, than those of strangers, because we should have more charity for our friends than for others. To speak badly of persons consecrated to God, of the servants of the church, is a much greater sin on account of the lamentable results to religion and of the detriment to their position. The Holy Ghost speaking by the mouth of the prophet says: “To abuse and revile His (the Holy Ghost’s) servants is to touch the apple of His eye”; that means, nothing can offend Him more. This sin consequently is a crime, the enormity of which surpasses all comprehension. Christ also said: “Whosoever despises you, despises me.”
— Saint John Vianney
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.
— Saint Catherine of Siena
Archbishop Gonzales wants Mother Mariana beatified, so this is serious.
Below is a quote from Matthew Arnold’s tract on his website.
“The revelations of Our Lady of Good Success and devotion
to her miraculous Statue were first approved by Bishop Sal-
vador de Ribera in 1611. The devotion and apparitions have
been authorized and promoted by subsequent Bishops of
Quito up to our times.
In 1906, while remodeling the Convent, Mother Marianna’s
sarcophagus was opened and her body was discovered
whole and incorrupt.
On August 8, 1986 Archbishop Antonio J. Gonzales named
Msgr. Luis Cadena y Almeida as postulator for the cause of
Mother Marianna’s beatification.
On February 2, 1991, with approval from Rome, the Arch-
diocese of Quito performed a canonical coronation of Our
Lady of Good Success as ‘Queen of Quito’.”
“above all in the present Holy Father and his heroic predecessor”
We await the Pope who will establish devotion to the Immcaulate Heart of Mary throughout the world. We await the Holy Father that will confirm his brethren in the Catholic faith while renouncing ecumenism. We await the Pope that will destroy Modernism with an almighty anathema!
acardnal–
The documentation you want is on Arnold’s website. For some reason, what I tried to copy from his tract is in moderation. I’ll try one more time, below.
Imrahil:
That would make more sense—plus, there’s a “Charles” involved. In addition, according to the book, this “Charles” is supposed to be wounded in a war, and will have a permanent limp.
Like I said, it probably doesn’t mean anything, but does make for an interesting read.
From Matthew Arnold:
“The revelations of Our Lady of Good Success and devotion
to her miraculous Statue were first approved by Bishop Sal-
vador de Ribera in 1611. The devotion and apparitions have
been authorized and promoted by subsequent Bishops of
Quito up to our times.
“In 1906, while remodeling the Convent, Mother Marianna’s
sarcophagus was opened and her body was discovered
whole and incorrupt.
“On August 8, 1986 Archbishop Antonio J. Gonzales named
Msgr. Luis Cadena y Almeida as postulator for the cause of
Mother Marianna’s beatification.
“On February 2, 1991, with approval from Rome, the Arch-
diocese of Quito performed a canonical coronation of Our
Lady of Good Success as ‘Queen of Quito’.”
Well, it didn’t work. Archbishop Gonzales has named Msgr. Luis Cadena y Almeida as postulator for the cause of Mother Marianna’s beatification. That should be enough info for now, or look on the website.
Jael, I will investigate. thanks
@Darren
Such declarations are typical of “St. Rafael”. It is sad, and a little bit scary.
I have to agree with moon1234. I don’t like to be a “Debbie Downer,” but I am a realist. Too many things point to much worse to come, with a restoration probably not happening in my lifetime (assuming I have another 35 years or so). Though, I do take heart in the apparitions and hope that my nephews will see the restoration, and hopefully be bright enough to be part of it. (They’ve both fallen away, one being atheist/agnostic.)
“I said that OLGS was Church approved. Which it is. It was approved by the Church long before Fr. Relyea and Bishop Morlino. I mentioned that Bishop Morlino approved a community that had the name of an aparition that was already Church approved.”
I have not yet seen evidence of any of this, and would want to see historical evidence that the origin of the private revelation was with Mother Mariana in the 17th c and what decision has been made in regards to it, if any, in that diocese. Being devoted to the teaching of the Mystical Doctor St John of the Cross, I believe in considerable reserve in regards to private revelations and mystical phenomena. Ignoring private revelations is always a good option, according to St John of the Cross. When the competent ecclesiastical authority has said it is worthy of belief, then it becomes a safe option to listen to it as being from heaven.
If it is real and approved, it deserves to be better known.
St. Rafael says: @Miss Anita Moore, O.P…Why don’t the triumph of modernism and clerics formed with the very face of hell, and absolute devils in the episcopacy and the heirarchy, qualify as major catastrophe hitting the world?…Because that is a major catastrophe hitting the Church and not the world. There are punishments for the Church and then there are punishments for the world. A major catastrophe hitting the world would be a world wide natural disaster or World War III. We already have worldwide economies and states collapsing, but I think it will take something a lot worse to wake people up.
Quite honestly, I don’t see how you can distinguish between a catastrophe hitting the church and a catastrophe hitting the world. A catastrophe in the Church IS a catastrophe for the world, because the Church beats back the assault of evil in the world, and the world becomes a much uglier place when the Church is weak.
Darren says: Who are any of us to assume we know better than God? Who chooses the pope? It is not the Cardinals… it is the Holy Spirit. Only when enough of the Cardinals properly discern the will of the Holy Spirit is a new pope chosen. I think that to criticize the pope is to criticize God. When we consider the lengthy papacies of both Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II… do we think that God would give us so many years of failure? (But then, who are any of to think we can fully understand the will of God?)
Well, remember that God does not affirmatively will evil, but He does sometimes permit evil in order to bring a greater good out of it. I don’t think it can be denied that Pope Paul VI was in many was a weak man, lacking the strength to calm the tempests that raged in the Church in his day. (In fact, he acknowledged it himself: the reverse of a papal medallion struck during his reign shows him, naked, upheld by angels, astride a wildly thrashing horse.) And I don’t think we can deny that the private life of Pope Alexander VI was downright scandalous and disgraceful, however good an administrator he was. Or that Pope St. Celestine V, practiced in heroic virtue as he was, was a disaster as the Successor of Peter. The truth is the truth.
But God does bring good out of calamities. In the case of Paul VI, the crowning glory of his reign was Humanae vitae, in which this weak man on the throne of Peter upheld the Church’s teaching on contraceptives, despite overwhelming pressure both from within and without the Church to do the opposite. A man of his type might reasonably be expected to have given in to such pressure. That is why this incident provides us with dramatic proof that the Holy Spirit does indeed govern and guide the Church. A stronger man might have been able to claim the credit for himself.
Supertradmum, at 9:19 a.m. you said:
“May I quote a desert father. ‘The holy Fathers were making predictions about the last generation…
That generation is you and me and my son and all who follow the Church today’.”
What makes you so sure you and your son are in the last generation? (Looks like two generations to me, but never mind). Do you think the world will end in your lifetime?
“I believe we have seen that faith and valour over the last half century, above all in the present Holy Father and his heroic predecessor; and that that complete restoration has indeed happily begun.”
I don’t know Fr. Z. I personally don’t believe so… Now don’t get me wrong, I do indeed believe in the inevitable restoration… I just believe we’ve still got a long way to fall yet before this really begins in earnest. Christ fell multiple times on the way to Calvary. There will be a lot of rising and falling, but I dare say we haven’t reached the plateau of crucifixion yet. Indeed, things can get quite worse… and the worst is yet to come… I believe we’ll all be better served with active defensive pessimism that plans ahead, rather than unwise optimism that leaves us more open to destruction. In time of peace, prepare for war.
Actually, I do not see a triumph of Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart in my Diocese. I cannot lie, to make it seem better than it is.
Priest I went to confession to put on a rainbow stole, and put his middle finger on his temple. I suppose God wasn’t dwelling in there. Truth is I did not have any salacious sins to confess. This priest knows I know he’s been accused of raping a boy and now the boy is grown up and gay. Supposedly conservative priest now famous bishop may have helped our former mentally ill bishop cover it up. Meanwhile this preist likes torturing me in the confessional like this. It’s the second time he’s done this. I’m disabled but I think it best never to go to face2face confession again. It’s is pointless. He even made a face during my confession.
Bishop allows the LCWR Sisters in my diocese to have their former Nazareth College Buildings used to house the HHS Dept affiliate the KalCounty Health Dept. The later, gives 12 yo kids, primarily boys whole boxes of condoms. No parental permission. ONLY an 18 yo peer or pimp need accompany this 12 yo, to get his/her box of condoms, from the STD Clinic. Both the Bishop and Papal Nuncio knows since Feb 2012 and nothing has been done to close it down. I got a snarky letter back from the Bishop calling me by my married name, not my maiden name. I’m annulled and divorsed. God bless him, with repentance.
Thus, the tacit approval and silence of both the Bishop and Papal Nuncio’s Office means these kids are slipping between the cracks, and no one gives a damn about them. I do. I told the City Atty’s Office about it. They said “Make a Police Report.” I tried. The City Police, Township Police, State Police and Sheriff’s Office all turned me down, or did not return my call. They good as laughed about it. I told them, you won’t laugh, when these kids grow up, smell the coffee, and go after all those Entities that looked the other way, while SEX TRAFFICKING of Their BODIES AND SOULS went on.
It is hard to like the Bishop, or Priests, or Papal Nuncio. I have to Pray to Love and Forgiven them. I need prayers and suggestions. Because this is evil. I even got a hold of Lila Rose’s office, and they called back but did nothing. It makes me angry. I do not believe any of this bishop or these priest’s pious acts. Because, whatever they do or don’t do for the least, they do or don’t do for Jesus. And, I do not roll over and play dead, like the rest of the Catholics around. Here. I risk hatred, for Jesus.
Our Lady of Good Success: Is A Bishop Approved Apparition: Feb 2, 1611 – Bishop Salvador de Riber.
Read more: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/bishop.html
Here is a list of Vatican Approved Apparitions:
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/vatican.html
acardnal…disambiguation…I’ve done some more checking …
The image of the painting at the top of this post goes with “Our Lady of Quito.”
On the other hand, “Our Lady of Good Success” has a miraculous statue.
These two titles go with two entirely different miracles.
The headline and picture go with “Our Lady of Quito,” and the quotes go with “Our Lady of Good Success.” A huge mixup.
@Darren: Very well said. Thank you. Beautiful quote from Saint Catherine of Siena!
Supertradmum “Until Rome approves an apparition, I ignore it.”
The local ordinary always has jurisdiction over occurrences in his diocese. We do not wait for Rome, the decision belongs to the bishop. Always has.
In the case of Medugorje, even though the two bishops have in no uncertain terms stated that this is not from heaven, and made all manner of testaments and decrees, [based on relentless research and even audio recordings of interviews with the visionaries] they are being ignored, even by brother bishops. After many years of chaos, scandal and disobedience, the present bishop has petitioned Rome for assistance. This is an unusual situation.
Jael, I appreciate your struggle to overcome comment moderation and make your salient points.
Yes, even though Marian Horvat my draw different conclusions than many of us, and uses the prophesies to prove her personal position, it is true she is very scholarly. My understanding is that her extreme “persuasion” is a recent development in the last decade. Much of Horvat’s research was done before the extreme point-of-view set in, not that this should matter really, as Horvat is an honest thinker. As I stated in the very first comment on this thread, I urge readers to just please read Our Lady’s words, ignore any conjecture or conclusion you might come across.
I wasn’t aware of Abbot’s work on this either, thank you.
And thank you Jael for emphasizing and explaining the bishops’ approval of the prophesies. Yes, every bishop over the 400 years has supported this. Even a previous President of Ecuador was swayed enough by this Virgin and her prophesies to publicly dedicate his country to the Virgin.
Our Lady of Quito is different, as I thought. But I immediately recognized that the quoted prophecies were from OL of Good Success.
The fuss over whats to be believed, who approved it, is it suppressed or on the Index, blah blah blah is a study in itself. Our Lady of La Salette’s dire message has been mistreated the same way [it was entirely approved and given a Imprimatur]. And we’ve all heard the controversy about whether or not the disturbing Third Secret of Fatima was truly revealed in its entirety. I suspect that these messages are being discredited by the very people in the hierarchy that would be hurt by Our Lady’s warnings. All the while, the crowds grow crazy over false occurrences…almost as if these same people were allowing a distraction to keep us from hearing the real thing.
Our Lady was sure to tell us these warnings long, long before the Freemasons could get in the way and obfuscate and suppress her words, as they do with her more recent messages to us. OL of Good Success speaks about Freemasonry’s influence in the Church at the highest levels…funny about that, eh?
Jael, I do not take it that literally. A generation for us in these fast times means 20 years. But, to the ancients, (and the age of the desert fathers) a “generation” could be hundreds of years. It means a time period. The group in the middle is the 1,000 plus years of Christendom. No, I do not think we are the “last generation” and that is not what is meant. Tribulations can last 100s of years. But we are in those last, horrible times and might as well accept it. We shall not see Christendom again.
Tina, I wait for Rome. I clearly know about bishops’ approvals and mentioned that in my post above, which you can see. I said that was a good thing. I also accept bishops’ disapprovals, which is why I said that I wait for Rome. And, it may cost me visitors to my blog, but I have never believed in Medjugorje , from day one. And, we do not have to believe in private revelations. They are not doctrine or dogma.
I love and believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Fatima, and Our Lady of Lourdes. There are other approved apparitions as well. I do not need to follow all the new private revelations. Many are false and some have been condemned. See my blog.
About 25 years ago Spanish TV had a programme on recent Marian appearances ? in Spain.Would I could remember his name , there was a priest with a good media presence . (probably broadcast live, with a canned report, otherwise they use editing , camera angles , lighting etc to turn hours of the manliest wisest priest into into 25 seconds of a drooling wimp, usually)The presentrix was wofflegonging about like a bestraught hen : Surely father , the church must pronounce, but surely father, the faithful need to know.. surely father, surely father must must must, mustn’t mustn’t can’t can’t.,( Excuse the male chauvinist piggery, but if Id have brained the ghastly woman in father’s place.)
He remained calm, paternal and unruffled.
Burden:
We have NO need to worry nor hurry .IF it’s our lady she will NEVER other than say what she said at Canaan : Do what my son tells you.
Signs of conversion in the ordinary lives of ordinary people starting to do what Jesus tells them may not be fireworky , but will be visible: the faithful husband who previuosly wasnt, and many similar instances to the annoyance of the presntrix who wanted feedings of the five thousand with a hollywood heavenly choir and enough gunpowder to fight a war with, and he courteously but determinedly ploughed on..etcs. etc etc
I have remembered this often. If it’s our Lady She’ll say do what my son tells you, and people will.
For what its worth, God willing, I will have a book published in the next few months called Heralds of the Second Coming-the Popes of the Marian Era from Pius IX to Benedict XVI. It is a detailed look at the prophetic writings (mainly from ad Limina addresses, speeches, etc) from all these popes. What becomes apparent is that they have suggested that we are living in the last days (not in a general sense from Pentecost) – even if the exact time is hidden in the secrets of the Father. I also have a Foreword by Cardinal Ivan Dias (remember his explosive homily in Lourdes on December 8th 2007 as the Holy Father’s legate). One important point is that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart does not refer to some temporal era of peace in the future, but the definitive renewal to come with the Lord’s return. A fact confirmed by Pius XII and Benedict XVI. Also the book will show the importance of St. Hildegard of Bingen for these times. I hope that people will see Popes John XXIII and Paul VI in a different light- as well as the prophetic value of Vatican II (in its relation to the recapitulation of all creation to come at the end of the world). This is an area that has been only discussed in terms of private revelation, but I hope to show that without doubt, the Holy Spirit has guided the recent pontiffs in an identical direction. And for those who have often scoffed at the prophecy of a great springtime of Christianity, interpreting it as something within salvation history-well there is plenty of evidence from certain addresses of Blessed John Paul that he was actually referring to the new heaven and new earth.
@mamajen: Such declarations are typical of “St. Rafael”. It is sad, and a little bit scary.
I agree completely. Both sad and scary. I do recommend the books, The Sermons of the Cure of Ars which is a collection of sermons mostly by St. John Vianney (and a few by others), for every feast day of the year. You’ll become more humble, and quite fearful of making such statements as he has.
@Miss Anita Moore, O.P
…God does not affirmatively will evil, but He does sometimes permit evil in order to bring a greater good out of it.
I agree totally with this, as a once great preacher often declared, “Why does God allow evil in the world? To bring about a greater good.” But, despite any weaknesses Pope Paul VI had – and every human being who ever walked the earth has had weaknesses (Our Lord and Lady aside – and I believe St. Joseph was pretty weakness-free, or had the fewest of anyone) – to proclaim a pope’s reign as a failure is bordering on scandalous. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II had many great successes and accomplished many great things. I was too young to remember Paul VI, but John Paul II accomplished much and was far from a failure.
@Geoffrey
Thanks. That quote from St. Catherine is a favorite. I think that same sentiment can be found in the words and actions of all of the great saints. If we have no respect and honor for the choices made by God, then how can we expect God to honor us by allowing us into His eternal presence?
St. Catherine said, “But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.”
There has to be some context for this, at least in a historical sense. Was she perhaps using a bit of hyperbole?
To be obedient and subject to devils, ostensibly for the sake of obedience to God, is to fly in the face of Holy Scripture, in which we are told to resist the devil, to cast him out and so forth.
Supertradmum: I’m glad to hear you do not take “generation” literally. It seemed from some of your previous posts that maybe you did.
Supertradmum: “Waiting for Rome” to approve an apparition that has been approved by every local bishop for 400 years is nonsensical. When the local bishops approve an apparition, they speak for Rome. That is the proper protocol for approval.
Jael says:
27 July 2012 at 12:16 am
acardnal…disambiguation…I’ve done some more checking …
The image of the painting at the top of this post goes with “Our Lady of Quito.”
On the other hand, “Our Lady of Good Success” has a miraculous statue.
These two titles go with two entirely different miracles.
The headline and picture go with “Our Lady of Quito,” and the quotes go with “Our Lady of Good Success.” A huge mixup.
Yes. Couldn’t have said it better myself. You confirmed my suspicions. This post and comments have become conflated and nonsensical in many and various ways.
Jael, but it does not matter, as we are free to ignore all private revelations. When the Church raises a devotion of Mary to the calendar, such as Fatima and Lourdes, then I can trust the witnesses, who in these cases, (as in Juan Diego, who saw Our Lady of Guadalupe and a few others), are saints. There have been some approvals by bishops in the past, and I can name them, where visions have been false and ultimately condemned by Rome, even in our lifetime. I do not concern myself with apparitions or visionaries, except to help warn people if they are false and condemned.
@Jael
Supertradmum: “Waiting for Rome” to approve an apparition that has been approved by every local bishop for 400 years is nonsensical. When the local bishops approve an apparition, they speak for Rome. That is the proper protocol for approval.
This makes me think of Our Lady of America. The local bishop has approved this… Raymond Cardinal Burke has supported this – if not given his own approval. However, until the Vatican officially approves this apparition, part of Our Lady’s request will not be done. The statue (last I saw it was at the John Paul II Cultural Center) will not enter the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception and to a permanent chapel there. Not until full approval from Rome.
What does anyone think of the Unity Publishing site, regarding true and false apparitions?
Darren,
“Who chooses the pope? It is not the Cardinals… it is the Holy Spirit.”
I just know what I think of this line of resoning anymore any more. It’s as if we are so excited about JPII and BXVI that we just ignore all the bad Popes elected over the centuries. Even if we trust the Holy Spirit choses the Pope, I don’t know what that guarantees. Certainly not virtue, success, or goodness.
“[T]o proclaim a pope’s reign as a failure is bordering on scandalous.”
Its a sad and interesting time. The Church leadership has wholeheartedly embraced modern democracy and democratic education, and most diocese are run like modern beurachracies. However, the leadership then expects orthodox Catholics(apparently not liberals) to relate to them as father figures or princes, in a pre-modern/aristoratic manner. That just is not how modern people think, and that is not how Catholics are formed. People tend to think of them as equals in all ways except for their appointed position/title. No one should be surprised when he finds people treating bishops, even the bishop of Rome, as the fallible leaders they insist that they are. Its intellectually sad, but a hard reality to escape.
If they start leading fearlessly and consistently again, or at least stand in real contradiction to the world, people will stop treating them like this. I am not justifying any behavior, just explainign it from my perspective.
acardnal…yes, the comments here certainly have become nonsensical in many ways. I hope when Fr. Z gets some time free, he will straighten it out.
superT: if it doesn’t matter to you, and you don’t concern yourself with apparitions unless they are condemned, then why are you posting so much on this topic?
So long as The Pope and Church ignores God’s command to specifically consecrate Russia to His mother’s Immaculate Heart, the Church can forget about any real restoration and any real change for the better and especially any real peace. Don’t be fooled by any small morsels of victory into believing the world and the Church has changed course.
As for the Holy Spirit and the quality of elected Popes, one can have valid but still illicit popes, just as Israel had valid but bad Kings. in such matters it is not up to us to question God’s Providence when these things happen, we simply make do and recognize the signs of the times. And if Benedict XVI is an example of anything, in my opinion, it’s an example of a Pope trying to do all the right things but with ineffectual methods whilst surrounded by enemies in his own rank and file who will betray him. As Cardinal Ratzinger he had his part to play in Vatican II and the supression of Fatima’s 3rd secret against the wishes of the Queen of Heaven. But he is our Pope and we therefore must pray for him and rely on him and trust him as far as we are able.
“There have been some approvals by bishops in the past, and I can name them, where visions have been false and ultimately condemned by Rome, even in our lifetime,” says Supertradmum.
If anyone can name a vision that has had the following types of occurences, and then been eventually condemned by Rome, I would be very interested to hear about it:
The apparition of Our Lady of Good Success has been authorized and promoted by all the local bishops of Quito for 400 years (the first approval in 1611). The visionary’s body was found whole and incorrupt 300 years after her death (in 1906). The archdiocese, with approval from Rome, performed a canonical coronation of Our Lady of Good Success as “Queen of Quito” (in 1991). The archbishop named a monsignor as postulator for the cause of the visionary’s beatification (in 1986). The church and convent have been made an archdiocesan Marian sanctuary.
I seriously doubt that any vision so thoroughly accepted by the Church, for so long, has been subsequently condemned. But I’m open to hearing about it if it did indeed happen somewhere.
Jael, because Satan will use anything to get people to hell, including false visionaries. Read my blog. As a sister in Christ, with many deceived friends and acquaintances, I must do this and so should all who know and read. I am not going to list those condemned ones once approved by a bishop on this site.
Jael, you did not read all my comments above. This one is noted on this post is approved, and I was not referring to this devotion approved by Paul V.
Supertradmum: I have indeed read all your comments. Your replies don’t make sense. For example, first you said you don’t get involved unless a vision is condemned, then you said you do get involved with non-condemned visions because Satan uses false visionaries. This is contradictory nonsense. Your last comment is not even a decipherable sentence. And perhaps you read my comments, but you didn’t reply to my actual points. For example, I did not ask you, or anyone else, to list condemned visions approved by a bishop. (I suspect you can’t). And I also suspect you can’t answer the actual challenge I did put to everyone.
About reading your blog, no thanks. Your communication style is not helpful to me, I do not feel I can trust your research, and I also have no desire to read a running commentary about how many women you counted wearing jeans at Mass.
Mary has asked us to pray for the world. Let’s stop blathering now, and take a moment to do that.
@Darren:
Unity Publishing is excellent both in content and in loyalty to the Church (although the layout/editing could use a hand); the gentleman running the site has been publicizing approved apparitions, and fighting unapproved ones, for years.
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Darren,
I have found Unity Publishing very very helpful for background on apparitions, especially useful for source documents such as bishop’s letters, decrees and explanations. In some areas, his work is extremely thorough and unapologetic.
However his understanding of La Salette is not quite accurate, and unfortunately promotes the old propaganda created back then without understanding the source or reason for the obfuscation. He fails to mention, for instance, that the bishop who persecuted Melanie Calvat and started the stories of her insanity, instability, hallucinations, himself died insane.
When Unity gets away from source documents, the opinions aren’t as reliable.
Personally I don’t care for Unity’s more extreme personal opinions.
Just an aside, after reading through this entire thread:
Why in Heaven’s Name would any faithful Catholic feed a troll? Haven’t we learned anything? I don’t get it.
what troll?