The Fishwrap (aka National Schismatic Reporter) reports that the LCWR nuns had a conclave. I’d report it myself, but the nuns rejected my request for media credentials.
It seems that they locked the doors, posted specially-hired security guards, eschewed wireless microphones, and forced the IT people to sign non-disclosure agreements. Maybe they were worried that I would come anyway and hack into their sound system.
The picture is worth … you know…
"EXTRA OMNES!"
Archbishop Sartain, the CDF’s Nun-Overlord, spoke to the assembly for a little over a half hour.
The same Archbishop Sartain celebrated Mass for the sisters for Assumption -it being a Holy Day of Obligation… at least for Archbishop Sartain. He preached about obedience. But I digress.
I read at the official organ of the LCWR, the National Schismatic Reporter, that the sisters weren’t happy with what Archbp. Sartain told them. What a shock. Can you imagine why?
One member said Sartain did not respond in any detailed way to questions about the specific allegations made in the Vatican doctrinal assessment of LCWR, preferring instead to talk about his general sense of the role of religious life in the church. Most of his talk, this person said, focused on Jesus. [OMG!]
At one point during his talk, one LCWR member said, Sartain told the sisters their role “is to be thinking with the church and fidelity to the magisterium of the church.”
Meanwhile, as I posted in another entry, the sisters had a pharmaco-cosmo-theological talk by their keynote speaker. HERE I especially liked Sr. Ilia Delio’s line: “There is no cosmos without God, and no God without cosmos.” Sr. Delia needs a refresher in “God 101”.
How do we explain the antics of the LCWR nuns?
I have the impression that – and mothers can correct me about the right age for this sort of thing – I have the impression that the sisters are rather like 13-year-olds right now. They push and push at the boundary of what is acceptable (acceptable for the Holy See, that is, from whom they crave approval).
Is it that they need attention? Even if it is negative attention? In that case, I suppose we have to admit that we white male hierarchs truly did fail them.
It is as if their leadership is saying: How weird can we be before something snaps? (Speaking of SNAP, are they protesting abuse of children by nuns at the meeting again this year?)
The sisters aren’t going to push the boundary and cry for attention through the use of – I dunno – goth-black eyeliner and eye-brow rings. Instead, as they use the mature nunny equivalent: they import for their assembly’s focus – under the eyes of the CDF – the weirdest theology they can find. Then they coo at it.
They normally can’t stand not being in the lime-light. They have become professional dissenters. They have a reputation to maintain. They have media to court. They mustn’t let their “publics” down (e.g., the cool-kids-table theology departments at places like Fordham, the with-it feminists of a certain age, religion-column writers, newsies on the spirituality beat, etc.). They can’t wait for that next controversial subject to jump into. Their conflict with the CDF is a chance for them to smear on that theological gothic eyeliner, get another nostril-ring, and crank up the volume on the music they know Dad hates most.
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They are so grounded.
I predict that this whole thing is going to end badly.
I doubt that the dear women are going to allow themselves to be bullied. [Bullied? LOL!]
I think even here we might be able to agree that the bishops currently are suffering from the weakest perceived moral authority ever, and they are going up against a very beloved group within the church.
For all the sniping, snickering, misogyny and schadenfreude that I find here, this can only be a lose/lose/lose situation for the women, the bishops and the church. [But… I’m right.]
Let them make cake…. in Oregon. Maybe the state will pick up the rehabilitation fee.
Bullying? Asking the sisters who claim to be Catholic to focus on Jesus and be loyal to the Church is now bullying? Wow.
I’m putting my money on the Church.
Not this bunch of superannuated professional dissenters so enraptured by their navel gazing and maze walking that they haven’t realized that the biological solution is rapidly overtaking them.
While, I guess, we should pray for them, I doubt it would be to the same God they worship. So, I’m thinking the better thing would be to pray for all those who they lead astray over the past 40-something year that somehow, their faulty catechesis be corrected. At least some souls can be saved.
And, oh, by the way, this is the level of ‘theology’ at my old alma mater:
http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/tabid/102/ArticleID/2448/Fordham-Theologian-Can-Babies-Be-Aborted-as-%E2%80%98Innocent-Aggressors%E2%80%99.aspx
Why this cesspool has NOT had its ‘catholic’ pretense identity, even peripherally, revoked by the Cardinal Archbishop of NY, is beyond me.
Just exactly who’s doing the bullying? And when did the LCWR become a beloved group? I know most Catholics have a spot for the concept of nuns, those in traditional attire, but I don’t think there’s some great groundswell for nuns dressed in lay clothes riding around the country campaigning for liberal Democrats like Obama. Their job is to follow the rules and guidelines set forth by the Church and its teachings. If they don’t agree with them, there’s nothing stopping them from leaving.
Father,
While the Sisters continue on with their serious theological “discussions”, nostril rings and eyebrow piercings, I thought I’d point out the following. On a quarterly basis, I receive newsletters from the Dominican Sisters of Saint Cecilia, and the Dominican Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist. In both newsletters, the young postulants, novices and the Sisters themselves radiate a beauty and joy that brings a smile to my face immediately to just behold the joy that these Sisters experience due to their intense love of God. Can’t possibly let this go by without sending another donation; the Sisters need more room to build dormitories for the non-stop line of brilliant women who are entering their Orders.
There must be a message here for the LCWR, no?
D.v.
“For all the sniping, snickering, misogyny and schadenfreude that I find here,” frjim4321
Yet you continue to show up and grace us with your oh so “enlightened” remarks. Sounds rather masochistic. As a Priest I know is wont to say about such nonsense “mule fritters!”
You and the LCWR shouldn’t let the door hit you on the way out.
FrJim, it seems like you’re coming from the viewpoint that correction cannot exist in a relationship of love… that pointing out grave errors somehow exists outside the realm of charity, and I find that belief both shocking and laughable. Ask any parent about that. Who cares if they’re beloved (if that’s even true)… that’s not what is in question. They may as individual persons have many a good quality, and that’s to be commended, but if you’re opposing the Church, you’re wrong and out of eternal concern for the state of their souls (which, by the way, is charity) they MUST be corrected.
Don’t feed the trolls.
Thank you frjim4321 for your comments full of charity, a virtue otherwise absent amongst the regrettable attacks on these women religious.
Ah Fr. Z, you forgot my favorite antic from the pre-pubescent years: “you’re not the boss of me!” I was sorry that my daughter only tried that once. I laughed for days.
Ah, the dear women. Reminds me of our own dear woman in our parish when I was young and impressionable, seeking guidance within my faith. She was a martyr. A martyr to all the very stupid men in the church. And they were all very stupid. Only she had any judgement. In thirty years I never once heard her say anything good about her church, her diocese or her faith. She was given honors and awards but she maintained her martyrdom through it all.
Her “humility” was as false as her theology. Peevishness was her god.
Not one vocation in thirty years. No novices to her order in all that time either. Duh
I will agree with Frjim that this will end badly….for the LCWR. Allowed to go astray for years, they are clearly unwilling to come back in to the fold. It will surely also hurt those that they have misled, thanks Fr. Z and others for continuing to point out their errors.
The nuns should be issued space suits so they can achieve liftoff and cosmos travel without interference from the earthbound hierarchy.
frjim, it is difficult for me to believe that we profess the same faith.
wmeyer:
sadly, that could be said for a lot of those in whom we place(d) trust over the last 40? 50? years.
ALL: I think the problem for frjim and some others is that they see the CDF crackdown on LCWR in terms of DISCIPLINARY issues (e.g., nuns not in habits, not submissive to bishops, lifestyle issues) and not in terms of DOCTRINAL issues.
The CDF is not really interested in what nuns wear. The CDF is interested in what they teach.
For example, that God needs the cosmos, growing beyond the Church is an acceptable option for women religious, etc.
Fr. Z, I understand your point, but on reading the document issued, I seem to recall it being pretty clear, and I do not recall there being anything in it about superficial issues. But perhaps I need remedial reading classes.
“Late for heaven” fairly well sums it up:
“You’re not the boss of me!”
Once again, I really *did* LOL here on Fr. Zs blog. :)
And meanwhile, the LCWR claims their relationship with the Vatican is delicate weaving….
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/lcwr-leader-describes-its-relationship-with-the-church-as-delicate-weaving?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NCRegisterDailyBlog+National+Catholic+Register#When:2013-08-19%2013:31:01
It appears there is no acknowledgement of doctrinal error to date and they continue to use VII (and statements from JPII) to supoort their distorted message. I continue to pray for the LCWR.
“You and the LCWR shouldn’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
– Cunningham
What makes you think we’re leaving. I suspect the commitment level of those you disagree with is a disappointment to you.
@frjim4321,
I would imagine that the answer to the question you posed to Cunningham is the average age in the LCWR being in the seventies (with virtually no vocations). If that’s not “on the way out”, I don’t know what is.
McCall1981, I suggest that if you can whitter on about being ‘evolving stardust’ and gun control in your pant suit and hush puppies for days on end in your Floridian hideaway, if you can oppose the Hierarchical structure founded by The Lord, or if you can issue a press release running into hundreds of words without referencing The Lord once & still call yourself a nun, you’ve probably already left.
Also if you can take the side of the devil against the Church on every issue from the cold blooded murder of the unborn to the desecration of the institution of marriage to the attacks on the church of Christ from illegitimate civil authorities you’ve probably left already too .
frjim said: “I predict that this whole thing is going to end badly.” Me too.
“I doubt that the dear women are going to allow themselves to be bullied.” Nobody is bullying them, dear or not dear.
“I think even here we might be able to agree that the bishops currently are suffering from the weakest perceived moral authority ever, and they are going up against a very beloved group within the church.” Agreed on the former, but I don’t agree on the latter. I think given the LCWR’s direction, the sisters are benefitting a great deal from lay affection based on things that happened a very long time ago. That is lucky for them, because it may help alleviate the very bad financial shape so many are in. But I doubt that many people who “support the nuns” know a lot about the LCWR or would support them if they did know.
“For all the sniping, snickering, misogyny and schadenfreude that I find here, this can only be a lose/lose/lose situation for the women, the bishops and the church.” There is nastiness going on that is unbecoming to all. Looking at it as “they got what they deserved” doesn’t help anyone. Probably based on different premises than Fr Jim’s, I agree that this probably turn out to be a lose/lose/lose situation and indeed already is one. Eighty percent of American sisters are represented by the LCWR, who proceed entirely under the idea that shouldn’t and musn’t be told what to do, and that there’s no possibility they are wrong. There seems little possibility that they’ll change this premise, and most of them (I say WITHOUT schadenfruede) are well over 70. There are more sisters over the age of 90 than under the age of 60. The future for sisters will no doubt be very different from either the way things are or the way the LCWR would like them to be. It looks to me like they took a path to a dead end, and they’re determined to keep taking it. They envision a new way of being a religious, but I think the new way that will come will not be their way, it will be a modification of the old way of being religious and that they will end up as an example of what not to do. That is indeed lose/lose/lose, a loss for everyone.
I’m not defending their other wackiness, but I can see some sense in the “cosmos” comment, depending on the context (which I’m not going to be bothered following up). “Cosmos” can (and does in Greek) mean “order”, and so God cannot exist without order, since he himself is the source of the order. It is a bit like saying “without love there is no God”, since God is love and so of course does not exist apart from love.
Of course I might be on a totally wrong track.
When I read about the Nashville Dominican Sisters or the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist, I smile. When I read about the LCWR sisters, I tense up my stomach muscles.
Aside from the stardust comments, I found this one from Sister Delio’s keynote address interesting:
“We are about drawing in the poor, the lonely, the marginalized, all those seeking to be part of a whole,” she said. “This is nothing more and nothing less than the most awesome vocation, and that is to give birth to God.”
The whole thing is scandalous and these congregations need to be suppressed. Their utter worldliness is a scandal, the faithful’s money they are spending on posh accomodations for this conference is a scandal, which I am sure includes outings (not that kind), cocktail hours, etc. I am sure the cost of this single conference and the “retreat” for the leadership team that follows would raise many eyebrows. The tepidness of the Church in addressing all of this is a scandal. As was already said, it has been allowed to go on for so long. This garden needs to be weeded!
“When I read about the Nashville Dominican Sisters or the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist, I smile.” – Patty Day
How long do they stay in, on average?
Perhaps those who support the LCWR should revisit this clever Youtube post and ask themselves “why?”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SRPr0Gf5dA
Pope Clement XIV, pray for the LCWR!
What exactly is stopping the LCWR from coming out publicly as being simply and clearly prolife?
Regarding Father’s last sentence, anyone remember the Calvin and Hobbes strip about “protest music for today’s youth”, based around the fact that rock’n’roll had become the establishment and its rebellion devolved into posing? Calvin’s conclusion was to play easy-listening muzak extra quiet and really tick his parents off.
This has applications to the common core discussion in the other thread, too, inasmuch as it highlights how children are smarter than the culture at large (well, or at any rate they’re cleverer) and may very well rebel… if not into normalcy, at least into something vaguely resembling sanity that refuses to tow the line with whatever humdrum is being promoted by the manufacturers of culture these days. (And yes, I just lumped the common core in with the manufacturing of culture. It’s clearly intended more to create a certain mindset rather than to teach, regardless of what they say about critical thinking and career-readiness, so how would you evaluate it?)
“How long do they stay in, on average?”
This is the Standard Consoling Response for LCWR supporters. It’s supposed to draw your attention to the fact that some of those young women leave the Nashville OP’s, etc. Once you’ve noticed that some leave, you’re then supposed to think: “OK. Maybe those women religious who are faithful to the Church aren’t all that great after all.”
Of course, this question — how long do they stay? — actually misses the point entirely. Young women are showing up to try out their vocations in faithful women’s congregations. They aren’t much bothering with the LCWR types. And they haven’t been for decades.
Fr. Philip Neri, OP
What’s interesting also about the faithful women’s religious congregations is that there are many charisms and ways to live out faithfulness to the Church.
Frjim4321 predicts that things will end badly with the sisters. In my neck of the woods, it
already has. Mind you, I live in one of the top 15 largest cities in this country, and every
convent that ever existed here is now gone. One is now a shopping center, one is an office
park, one is occupied by the diocese, and the rest were sold off and razed. All are gone.
Checking online, the nearest convent is 50+ miles outside the city.
The Catholic hospital here, under the nominal ownership of a nursing order of sisters, took
over operations of the city-owned hospital. Under pressure to provide “reproductive services”,
the sisters reached an agreement whereby one floor of the old city hospital is deemed
to still belong to the city. That floor is where one goes for birth control, vasectomies,
and abortion referrals. While the sisters might be present in the hospital boardroom, I’ve
never encountered one on the hospital floor. Aside from owning a vestigially Catholic hospital,
the nursing sisters are out of the nursing field over here.
My parish has one of the largest remaining parochial schools in the diocese. There are no
sisters teaching there. Nor were there any teaching at the parochial school at my previous
parish, formerly run by Dominican sisters. Nor are any sisters teaching at our only Catholic
high school. The teaching sisters are out of the teaching field here, and have been for some
time.
The only sister I encounter on a regular basis is the one running the diocesan Social Justice
department. Every year I get a form letter from her urging me to contribute to the CCHD.
(Her photo at the top of the form letter is the only occasion I’ve ever seen her in a habit, by the
way).
In short, while I live in a major US city with over 300,000 Catholics, here the demographic
collapse of the sisters has already happened. They’re gone from my city’s Catholic life. Maybe
a few live in apartments, working as community organizers or chancery bureaucrats, invisible
in their pantsuits. Otherwise, my city is post-nun. The sisters might be a beloved group based
on what they did decades ago, but they’ve long since ceased doing those things in these parts. It’s already ended badly for the sisters that were here, and if all the congregations represented
in the LCWR vanished tomorrow, it wouldn’t make a whit of difference where I live.
“For all the sniping, snickering, misogyny and schadenfreude that I find here, this can only be a lose/lose/lose situation for the women, the bishops and the church.”
I don’t think anyone here hates these women nor draws satisfaction from anything negative befalling them. But don’t you think that they should have the integrity to admit that they are really Protestants who do not submit to the Magisterium? The fact that they don’t makes them maliciously dishonest. How can one admire or support that? If you rebel against the Church, you rebel against the Holy Spirit. And when that happens, well, you begin to develop your own social justice new age agenda beyond Jesus, which embraces “co-creation.” Well, that’s fine, but start your own denomination. Don’t call yourself Catholic. What a gift the True Church is. No heresy can win against Her. God bless these women, and may they come to realize that we must be obedient to the Teaching Authority of Holy Mother Church, delegated by The Son of God Himself.
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I think it has less to do with adolescent dissent and more to do with some form of collective Personality Disorder on the part of the LWCR. In fact, it’s quite possible that some members of it leadership could be credibly diagnosed. This sort of antithesising of the vow of obedience can only be driven by Lucifer himself. It’s a pathology. What’s really needed is an exorcist.
And why did it take the Vatican 40 years to address this?
I have a question for Fr. Z: why are you calling the Fishwrap The National Schismatic Reporter. After reading your posts I’m convinced that National Heretical Reporter is closer to the truth, am I right? [St. Augustine argues that most schisms end up in heresy, because positions harden into errors. What NSR foments, in the first instance, is schism. It represents a break away movement in the Church. You can be a heretic all alone in your room. Schism, on the other hand, isn’t just private or even a sect. Schism requires a larger “public”.]
frjim4321 says:
“When I read about the Nashville Dominican Sisters or the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist, I smile.” – Patty Day
How long do they stay in, on average?
Perhaps this is the answer you are requesting. From their website:
Responding to the New Evangelization
The call of the new evangelization has been constant and compelling. In recent years there has been a resurgence in the mission field of Catholic education. Many of our schools have waiting lists, and numerous requests are made each year for our sisters to open or assume administration of schools across the United States and overseas. Beginning in the fall of 1996, during which period the number of sisters grew sufficient to accept new missions, the Congregation began once again to accept invitations from bishops, sending sisters to new schools. Since 1996, the Congregation has added the following schools to its apostolate:
1996: St. Vincent de Paul School (Archdiocese of Denver)
1997: Cardinal Hickey Academy (Archdiocese of Washington, D.C.)
1998: John Carroll High School (Diocese of Birmingham)
2000: St. Rose of Lima School (Diocese of Nashville)
2002: St. Croix Catholic School (Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis)
2003: Cathedral Academy (Archdiocese of New Orleans); Sisters join the faculty of Bishop Machebeuf High School (Archdiocese of Denver)
2004: St. Pius V School (Diocese of Providence); St. Catherine of Siena School (Archdiocese of Atlanta); St. John Vianney School (Diocese of Nashville)
2005: Our Lady of Mount Carmel School (Diocese of Lafayette, IN); Sisters join the faculty of Knoxville Catholic High School (Diocese of Knoxville)
2006: St. Mary’s School (Diocese of Charleston); Sisters missioned in Rome for graduate studies in Theology
2007: St. Joseph School (Archdiocese of St. Louis); Pope John Paul the Great High School (Diocese of Arlington)
2008: University of Sydney and Trinity Catholic College (Archdiocese of Sydney, Australia)
2009: St. Jude School (Diocese of Joliet, IL)
2010: Notre Dame High School (Diocese of Knoxville)
Such expansion has been made possible by the blessing of many vocations to the community. Since 1988 the community has increased by 156 sisters with our current number of sisters over 230, the largest number in our history. The median age is 36, and 61% of the Congregation is under the age of forty. The novitiate has an average of fifty sisters a year. For this blessing of growth and the call to give ourselves in service, we thank God.
Also the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, was founded by 4 members of the Nashville Dominicans.
https://www.sistersofmary.org/about-us/meet-the-sisters.html
robtbrown
If I were a Catholic in the States, and especially, if I had children, I would consider moving to one of the cities where these schools are NOW. Obviously, these places represent solid Catholic centers with solid Catholic communities willing to support such schools.
SWP says:
I think it has less to do with adolescent dissent and more to do with some form of collective Personality Disorder on the part of the LWCR. In fact, it’s quite possible that some members of it leadership could be credibly diagnosed. This sort of antithesising of the vow of obedience can only be driven by Lucifer himself. It’s a pathology. What’s really needed is an exorcist.
The last thing we need is to psychopathologize this behavior, which is the MO of the liberal, or
robtbrown, I see from that link that “The average age of women entering is 21 years old; the average age of all the Sisters is 28.”
I must wonder, of the 80% of women religious “represented by the LCWR”, in how many of the orders can a similar demographic be found?
Netokor said: “I don’t think anyone here hates these women nor draws satisfaction from anything negative befalling them.”
Perhaps there is a sense in which faithful, orthodox Catholics “hate” the vocal members of the LWCR who celebrate disobedience as if it were a virtue. And I mean “hate” in the sense of Luke 14:26. C. S. Lewis commented on that verse of Scripture, suggesting that by “hate”, Jesus meant “to reject as unfit for the purpose” of promoting the kingdom of God. The members of the LWCR who make a career of dissent against the Magisterium are “unfit for the purpose” for which they were originally founded, and therefore, rejecting their modern message is the proper, godly thing to do.
I rather liked Sr. Delia’s statement about God and the cosmos. It echos of a trinitarian God.
These sisters may be old, but they are on the cutting edge.
frjim: “How long do they stay in, on average?”
I have no statistics available to quote. However, as a native Tennessean familiar at various times with Catholics schools staffed by the Nashville Dominicans, as one familiar with young women who have entered this order, and with priests who are close to them, I can say that over a period of many years of such familiarity I have never heard personally of a single professed sister who have left the order.
Therefore, though there must be at least a few such examples, I suspect it would be accurate to say that, once a Nashville Dominican takes her vows, “on average” she remains in the order for the rest of her life. Indeed, in my personal observation, these sisters uniformly radiate such unreserved joy, that it seems hard to imagine anyone willing to leave voluntarily such a happy and blessed life .
I agree with FrJim that this will end badly for all sides. The clunky Vatican handling of this has opened the door to liberals claiming that it’s an attack on all sisters–or all sisters whose communities are members of the LCWR.
No doubt that the LCWR is rife with sisters with nutty, anti Catholic ideas, but US Catholics know
where they stand. They are older women in provinces that will be gone in 10 years. And what they are saying and doing is of little consequence compared to the likes of Cdl Schonborn and Abp Marini, both of whom spoke favorably of homosexual unions.
Benedict understood well that these situations in the Church cannot be remedied by juridical actions. There has to be a reform that begins with liturgy.
shoofoolatte says:
I rather liked Sr. Delia’s statement about God and the cosmos. It echos of a trinitarian God.
These sisters may be old, but they are on the cutting edge.
In so far as you’re inclined to the cutting edge, I suggest you check out Opus Dei. If your inclinations are more toward the contemplative life, there are the Carmelites in Lincoln, NE, and the Benedictines in KC.
And what they are saying and doing is of little consequence compared to the likes of Cdl Schonborn and Abp Marini, both of whom spoke favorably of homosexual unions
I would suggest Bishops McElroy and Lynch are far worse than either. McElroy contends that no politician that supports abortion should be denied the Eucharist because it will be seen as “coercive” and “forcing religion on others”. Bishop Lynch has a laundry list, check out his blog in the following link, specifically the August 7th and May 29th entries.
http://bishopsblog.dosp.org/
My thirteen-year-old girls (twins) decided they preferred the Gregorian Chant and Latin NO mass in our parish. And they think nuns without habits make no sense.
“These sisters may be old, but they are on the cutting edge.”
Yep! You are right, shoofoolatte. They are on the “cutting edge” of the precipice with arms flailing wildy, readying to descend into nothingness – taking many souls with them.
Oh yes, *that* really is “Moving beyond Jesus.”
MSM