Another papal trip, another papal presser, another papal kerfuffle

The usual unusual suspects are over the moon that Pope Francis made comments about “gays” (I detest the twisting of that once fine word) where else but on an airplane.  Other suspects are shredding their garments.

Frankly, this is much ado about very little in comparison with the bizarre off-the-cuff comments from that recent pastoral congress in Rome.

And in making this comment about “gays”, Pope Francis knocked the press off what really mattered in Armenia: the issue of genocide.

What did the Pope say that has everyone in a tizzy… this time?  The full text is HERE.

Let’s review.

Cindy Wooden, CNS: Holiness, within the past few days Cardinal Marx, the German, speaking at a large conference in Dublin which is very important on the Church in the modern world, [I would respond that none of the entities she mentioned are important for the Church in the modern world, but I digress.] said that the Catholic Church must ask forgiveness to the gay community for having marginalized these people. In the days following the shooting in Orlando, many have said[many wrong people may have said] that the Christian community had something to do with this hate toward these people. What do you think?  [And we’re OFF!…]

Pope Francis: I will repeat what I said on my first trip. I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally. [Actually, they must be discriminated against when it comes to admission seminary.  Right?  There’s just discrimination and there’s unjust.] One can condemn, but not for theological reasons, but for reasons of political behavior…Certain manifestations are a bit too offensive for others, no? [Ummm…] … But these are things that have nothing to do with the problem. The problem is a person that has a condition, [Italian: “quella condizione”, which isn’t exactly felicitous if you have “that condition”.  Yes, in Italian that sounds about like what it is in English.] that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge? And we must accompany them well…this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism. Then there are traditions in some countries, in some cultures that have a different mentality on this problem. [Yah… like the “cultures” and “countries” where homosexuals are killed… which is what Orlando was about.] I think that the Church must not only ask forgiveness – like that “Marxist Cardinal” said (laughs) [Jokes are funny because they contain some truth.  But here it comes…] – must not only ask forgiveness to the gay person who is offended. But she must ask forgiveness to the poor too, to women who are exploited, to children who are exploited for labor. [So, “gays” are just one group among many!] She must ask forgiveness for having blessed so many weapons. [I’m pretty sure we are better off for having blessed weapons before the Battle of Lepanto.] The Church must ask forgiveness for not behaving many times – when I say the Church, I mean Christians! The Church is holy, we are sinners![YES!] – Christians must ask forgiveness for having not accompanied so many choices, so many families…I remember from my childhood the culture in Buenos Aires, the closed Catholic culture. I go over there, eh! A divorced family couldn’t enter the house, and I’m speaking of 80 years ago. The culture has changed, thanks be to God. Christians must ask forgiveness for many things, not just these. Forgiveness, not just apologies. Forgive, Lord. It’s a word that many times we forget. Now I’m a pastor and I’m giving a sermon. No, this is true, many times. Many times … but the priest who is a master and not a father, the priest who beats and not the priest who embraces, forgives and consoles. But there are many. [?!?  There are?] There are many hospital chaplains, prison chaplains, many saints. But these ones aren’t seen. Because holiness is modest, it’s hidden. Instead it’s a little bit of blatant shamelessness, it’s blatant and you see so many organizations of good people and people who aren’t as good and people who … because you give a purse that’s a little big and look at you from the other side like the international powers with three genocides. We Christians – priests, bishops – we have done this. [I lost track there for a bit… what have we done? “look at you from the other side like the international powers with three genocides”?  Is that it?] But also we Christians have Teresa of Calcutta and many Teresa of Calcuttas. We have many servants in Africa, many laity, many holy marriages. The wheat and the weeds. And so Jesus says that the Kingdom … we must not be scandalized for being like this. We must pray so that the Lord makes these weeds end and there is more grain. But this is the life of the Church. We can’t put limits. All of us are saints, because all of us have the Holy Spirit. But we are all sinners, me first of all! Alright. I don’t know if I have replied.

I had a hard time following that.  Thus, I don’t blame most newsies for focusing on the “sexy” comment about apologizing to “gays” (I detest that term).

But the Pope also referred back to the Church’s catechism, indeed the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  He didn’t even suggest that any change in the Church’s teaching was in order, as if an airplane presser were the place to do that.

Here’s the video from Ed Pentin:

What does the CCC say?

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. [It’s “psychological”.]

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [But it is a small minority.] This inclination, which is objectively disordered, [The inclination is “objectively disordered”, that is, “it inclines a person toward something that is objective not meant for a person by its nature”] constitutes for most of them a trial.  [Probably an understatement.]They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. [Don’t bully them, beat them up, harass them, etc.  But that doesn’t mean that “gays” (I detest that term) get a pass on everything just because they have “quella condizione”.] These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives [ALL people are!] and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. [ALL people are, within the sphere of their vocation.] By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, [Many same-sex relationships are friendships that have gone wrong.] by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. [NOT same-sex acts.] In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

So, let’s not be mean to “gays”.  That’s also what the CDF wrote.  Right?

But the Pope also spoke about other things during this presser!

He also said that, although Luther intended reform, which wasn’t wrong, “maybe some of his methods were not right.” And that the church in the 16thc “was not exactly a model to imitate.” He used the word “genocide” for the massacre of Armenians in the early 20th c. Regarding the “two Popes at once” lunacy that has been floating around, he told Elisbetta Piqué of La Nacion, that Benedict XVI can no longer be considered to be exercising papal ministry. “There is only one pope.” On Brexit he was guarded, but didn’t seem pleased with the result. And with a measure of anger he slammed the door on deaconettes.

But, by all means, focus on the “gay” thing if that makes your socks roll up and down.

I’ve already state my position on question of whether Popes should give interviews.

Another question that one could rehash, as it has been every since the Millennium, is “Should the Church apologize to anyone?”

UPDATE:

The whole thing.  The Orlando question is at about 45:00.

Please share!

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62 Responses to Another papal trip, another papal presser, another papal kerfuffle

  1. Sconnius says:

    He hit on it again, too. This vast multitude of bad priests, who act as master and destroyer rather than shepherd and healer.

    When is someone going to ask him more about these priests, and where they all are, and how does the Holy Father seem to know so many?

  2. JamesM says:

    I was more concerned with what the Holy Father said about justification. [Right.]

    Pope francesco:

    I believe that the intentions of Martin Luther were not wrong: he was a reformer. Maybe some methods were not right, but in that time, if we read the story of Pastor, for example – a German Lutheran who then was converted when she saw the reality of that time, and became a Catholic – we see that the Church it was just a role model: there was corruption in the Church, there was high society, there was attachment to money and power. And for this he protested. Then he was intelligent, and he made ??a step forward justifying why he did so. And today Lutherans and Catholics, with all Protestants, we agree on the doctrine of justification: on this point so important he did not wrong. He made ??a “medicine” for the Church, then this drug has been consolidated in a state of things, in a discipline, a way of believing, one way to do, in a liturgical way. But he was not alone: ??there was Zwingli, Calvin … It was behind them who was there? The principles, ” cuius regio eius religio “. We must put ourselves in the history of that time. It ‘a story is not easy to understand, not easy. Then things have been going on. Today dialogue is very good and that document on justification think it is one of the richest ecumenical documents, richer and deeper. Agree? There are divisions, but also depend on the churches. In Buenos Aires there were two Lutheran churches: a thought in one way and another in another. Also in the same Lutheran Church there is no unity. They respect each other, love … Diversity is the one that perhaps has done so much harm to all of us and now let’s return to the road to meet us after 500 years. I believe that we should pray together, pray. This is why prayer is important. Second: to work for the poor, the persecuted, for many people who suffer, for the refugees … Working together and pray together. And that the theologians to study together, looking … But this is a long road, long. I once joked: “I know when will be the day for full unity” – “What?” – “The day after the coming of the Son of Man!”. Because no one knows … The Holy Spirit will do this favor. But in the meantime we must pray, love one another and work together, especially for the poor, for the suffering people, for peace and so many other things, against the exploitation of the people … So many things for which you are working jointly.

    Do we agree on justification? I thought that was kind of important at Trent? There are several canons related to it. There was a declaration in 1999 on the subject and the preamble includes the following :

    “Doctrinal condemnations were put forward both in the Lutheran Confessions[3] and by the Roman Catholic Church’s Council of Trent. These condemnations are still valid today and thus have a church-dividing effect.

    [We don’t agree on how justification and sanctification are worked in us by God. Lutherans have a different anthropology and understand justification and sanctifying grace differently.]

  3. Chiara says:

    I would like to comment on something the Pope said in this press conference, which refers to the behavior of some priests – “the priest who is a master and not a father, the priest who beats and not the priest who embraces, forgives and consoles. ”

    This might get lost in all the discussion about what His Holiness said about homosexuals. But I think it is pretty important.

    Not every priest who is ordained is pastoral, sadly. He may be devout, conscientious about his many duties, and a good steward of the parish for which he is responsible. And those are all wonderful attributes for a priest.

    I have been exposed to many priests who are bound for heaven, without any doubt in my mind. They not only have the qualities listed above, but they also truly love their parishioners and are concerned for their souls.

    I have also been around priests who openly play favorites among parishioners, who preach beautifully about mercy and forgiveness and at the same time shun parishioners for personal reasons, even asking them to leave the parish and denying them Sacraments for no other reason than personal animosity. They scold and exclude Catholics in spiritual trouble, or merely those who are not members of the “clique”, without offering a path back to the Church and the loving embrace of God.

    I was very grateful for this message from Pope Francis to our priests, warning them of the danger of losing sight of the mission of their holy vocations. I think he said it very well.

    God bless you, Father, and all your blog parishioners.

  4. Lavrans says:

    If I have spoken the truth with regard to marriage, sex, and family using the same terms and ideas of the Catholic Church, and if that has offended anyone, then I will not apologize, for I have nothing to apologize for. It would have been nice to hear His Holiness say the same thing, but this is not a nice world we live in, courtesy of the Fall. Oh well. God bless Pope Francis with clarity, fortitude, and holiness.

  5. jhayes says:

    Fr. Lombardi clarifies:

    “The questions is: If a person who has that condition, who has good will, and who looks for God, who are we to judge?” Francis said. According to Reuters, Vatican spokesperson Father Federico Lombardi clarified that “condition” [condizione] in Italian translates to “situation,” and does not imply a medical “condition.”

    HERE

  6. benedetta says:

    Would that an apology suffice, I’m sure the Church would gladly do so. And has. Apparently though some want something rather different than, “peace”.

    Of course, there are others who really need to apologize, to the Church, and certain of us who are Church. But hey what’s a nine year wait when we’re contemplating eternity?

  7. WVC says:

    Francis Fatigue: (noun) – that condition that sets in after you have crossed your tolerance threshold with regard to outlandish “off-the-cuff” remarks made by the current pontiff. This condition can be identified because the outlandish remarks are no longer received with hair-pulling or clothes-rending but with a mere shrug and/or eye roll. It is also remarkable because it coincides with a willingness to believe that the Holy Father could say practically anything so long as it sounds like the exact opposite of what a Holy Father should be saying, e.g.
    “The Church has been wrong in how she has treated women since the very beginning”
    “Conversion has never been important to the Church.”
    “The Church must learn from the wisdom and patience of Islam if she is to learn to respect, to truly respect, those who are Others.”
    “Priests must stop bullying people into going to Confession. We must not put artificial restraints on the over-super-abundance of Jesus and Mercy.”

    This is not to be confused with Francis Fatigues: (noun) A special type of camouflage clothing that renders the actual position of a person incomprehensible by blurring all hard lines with back-tracks, contradictions, official corrections, semantics, reversals, obfuscations, and, when all else fails, claims to not remember anything you may have said or written. Synonyms: Infallibility Cloak, Cassock of Concealment, Mossy Oak Mix-ups, Aggiornamento ACUs, Darned-if-I-Know Dungarees.

  8. arga says:

    No one ever points out that the CCC refers not to “discrimination” simpliciter but to “unjust discrimination.” Hence, certain kinds of discrimination are just.

  9. Matilda P says:

    Thanks for a balanced view of this, Father. It is quite a good thing that he did tackle those other topics with what seems like a measure of firmness and clarity. (But this excerpted bit sure was difficult to follow!) Really, the issue isn’t so much that what he said was wrong, as it wasn’t–the standard of ‘respect, compassion, and sensitivity’ is definitely not often met, but it’s what the mainstream media will do with it, and how it reads to people who generally read into the Church a narrative of ‘oppressing’ people’s ‘true selves’ out of prudishness and bigotry. It only feeds the public impression of this papacy as having transformed the church into a modern, happy-making social gathering.

    Although while I have heard many lamentable stories of the Church (i.e. Christians, and often prelates) snubbing the poor, I do have some trouble understanding the Church’s involvement in exploiting women and child labour. Is it because Church teachings, taken wrongly, have led to these circumstances? I can understand that for the exploitation of women, of course, but children–still mystified.

  10. thomas tucker says:

    I understand what he means ( at least I think I do), but it is so dispiriting to see his words twisted by the media and othes to mean that same-sex relations are now okay. If only he would qualify his words by adding the rest of what the Catechism says. If only….

  11. Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    I can’t help feeling like the Petunias in Douglas Adams’ Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:

    “oh, no. Not again.”

    I confess that sometimes the apologists for His Holiness remind me of another line from the same book: Don’t Panic.

  12. Father Flores says:

    As a spiritual child of the Holy Father, I keep getting the impression that he wants me to be seen and not heard.

  13. EeJay says:

    The apology to Galileo really irks me. Luther’s next, who’s taking bets? But someone should definitely apologise for that demented-cemented Lego construct in the University of Wisconsin, Madison – which I gather is to be trashed, hurrah!

  14. frjim4321 says:

    [Actually, they must be discriminated against when it comes to admission seminary. Right? There’s just discrimination and there’s unjust.] Our Benevolent Host

    I don’t see the discriminatory admission policy working very well from what I see.

    First, this is mainly coming from the sexual abuse issue and is tantamount to scapegoating gay seminarians, priests and bishops for the crisis.

    Second, it’s just going to drive those individuals further into the closet.

    Third, it’s going to cause even greater rates of sexual repression and eventually the acting out will occur. Or the rates of depression, alcoholism and other dysfunctions among the clergy will occur.

    Fourth, for the most part candidates who are most dynamic, creative, intelligent and interpersonally adept will be weeded out, further depriving Catholics of the sacraments.

    [Which does not change the fact it they ought not be admitted.]

  15. benedetta says:

    I’ve really never, ever, encountered a parish or Catholic who was not willing to “pastorally accompany” gay brothers and sisters.

    I have however, sadly, encountered those who under pretense of dignity and pastoral practice would animate gay brothers and sisters to hate on innocent mothers and disabled children, simply out of a witch hunt belief that their prolife views could conflict with their political interests, apparently. I think that this is of course far from pastoral, doesn’t help to better include gay men and women in our midst, and of course hurts our communion gravely. Would anyone care to share in the medical bills, the lost work, the loss of property, the torture, the lifelong effects of terror? Where are our gay brothers and sisters whom we wholeheartedly supported, are they nowhere to be found? If it’s cut and run and “you deserve it” then obviously what is occurring is abuse disguised as “pastoral” and “mere politics”.

  16. kiwiinamerica says:

    Francis owes us an apology.

    The intervals between “crazy talk” outbursts from Francis are getting shorter.

    He talks as if we’re in the middle of some sort of anti-homosexual pogrom. It’s Christians who are under the hammer, not homosexuals. Did he offer any words of support for the brave men and women who are losing their jobs and their livelihoods due to the lavender onslaught against them because they refuse to accept homosexual “marriage”? Any word of support for the Catholic teacher in Canada, suspended because he spoke the truth about Catholic teaching on homosexual relationships? This is the state of play right now. In saying that “homosexuals deserve an apology”, he casually threw under the bus all the brave Christian men and women who are fighting this tide of homosexual immorality and decadence.

    In FrancisChurch, everyone gets an apology. Everyone, except faithful Catholics who love the Church and who have been forced to watch helplessly for the past 50 years while the Mass is trashed, altar rails are ripped out, churches vandalized, sound catechesis goes down the gurgler, dissidents run amok, homosexual clergy molest altar boys and cost the Church billions, seminaries run off good young men, vocations collapse, nuns toss away their habits and go crazy and our children leave this spiritual wasteland. Any signs of an apology for us?

    Do you get the enormity of what’s happened over the past three years yet, folks? Firstly, A reigning Pope jacks it in. His successor then commences to ridicule and abuse priests and faithful Catholics in the most intemperate, derogatory, uncharitable language and then we’re told that we’re supposed to “value” the “good” in homosexual relationships, or we’re just a bunch of “rigid” so-and-sos!! We get an encyclical on air-conditioning, two rigged Synods and then a summary which was ghost-written before the Synods even took place and which produces a clear rupture with the writings of St. John Paul II.

    Move along now……… nothing to see here.

    This is the lavender pontificate. They have taken over the Church’s hierarchy. Remember Mother Angelica’s famous soliloquy…..“I’m so tired of you, liberal Church in America……”?? That’s where many of us are right now with regard to the wider Church and this pontificate, in particular. We’ve had it with all this “Francis-shtick” and his lavender acolytes.

  17. chantgirl says:

    My family left the Lutherans to become Catholic, and the Pope’s comments on Luther’s view of justification are disturbing.

    As for the comment on apologizing to gays, forget it. The Church has the truth about sexuality and the only path for homosexuals to be truly free and happy. I have a feeling that these words will be used as a bludgeon against teachers, catechists, priests preaching, parents homeschooling etc.

  18. Traductora says:

    Aside from his dubious premises (the implication that the Church has been and is busy persecuting homosexuals and has something to “ask forgiveness” for), these words pouring without regard from whatever he has that passes for a brain are devastating because they absolutely knee-cap Catholics who are fighting against the state’s imposition of homosexuality. I think these words are going to affect the legal situation of the Catholic school that dismissed a homosexual teacher who had “married,” for example. And they are certainly demoralizing words for other priests, bishops and laity who are under pressure from the state. But then, Francis is nothing if not a statist, so he probably doesn’t care, particularly since these priests and others are no doubt those evil, beastly, cruel torturers Francis seems to find everywhere among the clergy.

    In any case, he said a number of other completely off the wall things on a number of other subjects, particularly Lutheranism, and frankly I think that many of them were completely unacceptable for a Catholic. The interview apparently lasted for about an hour, which gave him plenty of time to luxuriate in his captive and worshipful press audience. However, one thing that really struck me is that he is becoming increasingly rambling and confused and unintelligible. He never completes a sentence, half the time you can’t tell who the subject is or this changes mid-way through, without any transition, and the whole thing is a stream of non-sequiturs. Francis was never a model of clarity in any language, but I wonder if there is perhaps some kind of mental degeneration going on, because this is one of his most irrational outpourings yet.

  19. tioedong says:

    The Pope is sowing confusion. It is not only the press’ fault: He is a Jesuit so one doubts he is too dumb to know what he is doing. And right now, I’m ready to join the SSPX. I lived in Altoona, so don’t get me started.

    And it’s not as if the Pope is unaware of the gender agenda being promoted by the US/UN/EU on poor countries. So why doesn’t he bring THIS up with the press? There are reasons that “gays” have been marginalized, and it’s not their genetics but the predators in their midst…

    [Don’t put your trust in Popes. Popes come and go. Some are good and some are bad. Some are important and some are not.]

  20. robtbrown says:

    If asking forgiveness is in order, how about Homosexuals asking forgiveness for AIDS?

  21. Geoffrey says:

    But Father! You forgot to mention the Holy Father’s (clear?) condemnation of the whole deaconess kerfuffle: [No, I didn’t forget.]

    “They said: ‘The Church opens the door to deaconesses.’ Really? I was a bit annoyed because this is not telling the truth of things…”

  22. tcreek says:

    Who can doubt that the “liberal/progressives” now have their man at the top? The “anyone but Ratzinger” cardinals wanted Bergoglio at the 2005 conclave and he was, reportedly, second in the count for the last three ballots until Ratzinger received the necessary votes for election.

  23. allenmurphy says:

    The italian version of the pope on the plane said ” one can condemn not for ideological reasons… The english said one can condemn ” not for theological reasons” [No. He said “teologici”. He screwed up the agreement by starting out with “por motivo teologici” and went on with “ma per motivi… “.]

  24. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    O, ye fluent, was it all as hard to follow – as ragged and jumbly and fuzzy and what not – in Italian, as in this translation? (I found myself wondering if someone just fed it to Google Translate, it seemed so garbly so often.)

  25. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    The ease with which I seemed to be losing track for various bits, and the Holy Father saying, “there is one single Pope, and the other… maybe they will be like the bishops emeriti, I’m not saying many but possibly there could be two or three. They will be emeriti… They are emeriti” somehow made me think of some of Mr. Trump’s of-the-cuff remarks, and their glosses and corrections, and apparent contradictions… And got me wondering, how quickly could someone go from layman to Pope, from (conditional) baptism to “Do you accept your canonical election as Supreme Pontiff?” Not that anything like that is likely to happen to Mr. Trump! But, then, I thought, there is someone apparently looking for a new job, someone whose given name seems to be the equivalent of ‘Benedict’ in another language… If enough cardinals were so minded, and someone were minded to become the second of the contemporary emeriti… how swiftly could that occur, formally speaking?

  26. benedetta says:

    I think the media has a humongous blind spot regarding marginalization generally. The elites just have lost all rational credible authority on that score. You would think that marginalization only occurs to one select group and never to anyone else, ever. The elites that suffer certain ones to portray a very edited, distorted, and even false picture are hoisted on their own petards. What a joke have become the pronouncements from on high.

  27. TNCath says:

    I can’t help but get the same feeling about the pope as I do Barack Obama. I can’t stand to hear either anymore.

  28. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    We read, Cindy Wooden said that Cardinal Marx “said that the Catholic Church must ask forgiveness to the gay community for having marginalized these people.” (‘Ask forgiveness “to” ‘ sounds more than wooden: is that an Italianism? – I think I’ve only ever encountered ‘ask forgiveness of/from X’, or ‘ask X for forgiveness’.) The only press account I’ve seen is that of Patsy McGarry in the Irish Times, in which he writes, “A leading cardinal has said the Catholic Church should apologise to the gay community for its scandalous and terrible treatment of them” and “As church and society “we’ve also to say ‘sorry, sorry’ ”.”

    Cincy Wooden’s ‘account’ corresponds where “the gay community” is concerned, but has “ask forgiveness” where Patsy McGarry has “apologise” and “say ‘sorry, sorry’”. The Holy Father (as translated) takes up “ask forgiveness to” but substitutes “the gay person” and qualifies further “who is offended”. He further clarifies “when I say the Church, I mean Christians” and “Forgiveness, not just apologies”. Does this suggest each of us as particular Christians must ask forgiveness for particular offenses known to and recognized by us? Perhaps not entirely, given the contrast between the particular “gay person who is offended” and the plurals of “the poor”, “women who are exploited”, and “children who are exploited for labor.” Even that might immediately mean particular Christians who are directly exploiting particular women and children (e.g., a Christian owner, executive, manager, supervisor, who knows her (second-/third-world) factory uses child labor. But “forgiveness for having blessed so many weapons” would presumably mean “priests, bishops” very specifically. (My first thought was that this was, for whatever reason, an implicit ‘dig’ at Orthodox clergy, since I have seen so many photos of one or another contemporary Orthodox in orders blessing a military weapon, and so few of anyone else.)

  29. Andrew D says:

    Here’s where this follow-up to “who am I to judge” is going, and man, I really hope I’m wrong about this. As some of you readers are no doubt aware, there is a movement in the U.S. by the GLBT movement to criminalize faith-based groups who are offering to convert homosexuals to a chaste or even straight lifestyle. I don’t know if any state laws have been enacted but I do know that several bills are in state legislatures and several municipalities have passed city ordinances that forbid these groups from doing what they do. COURAGE is a Catholic ministry that works with willing homosexuals, supporting them to lead a chaste lifestyle and by this definition, they meet the qualifications for the GLBT’s target. What I fear these latest remarks from Bergoglio are leading to is a marginalization of COURAGE within the Church ala. the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. It may happen by order from Bergoglio or it may happen by proxy from the USCCB. Then, there will be pressure from the secular-progressives to aggressively go after those Catholics who adhere to the Church’s teaching on sodomy. We’ve already seen the secular persecutions against bakeries who refuse to bake cakes for gay “weddings.” We now have to be prepared for catholic (intentional lower case c) clergy working with the secular authorities to turn in faithful Catholic (intentional cap’d C) clergy, religious and layperson who respect and uphold the Church’s teaching. Don’t think that imprisonment and eventually, executions, won’t be carried out against those of us who aren’t afraid to say no, sodomy is evil and cries out to Heaven for vengeance. It’s coming folks and sadly, I fear that this persecution will be assisted by those who should be shepherding us.

  30. organistjason says:

    Would someone, please, restrain him! Block the door…..anytime he says he wants to talk to the press on a plane or anywhere for that matter, block the door. Be like a good Big Ten Linebacker. BLOCK THE DOOR!

  31. Grumpy Beggar says:

    Father Z. laments :

    “. . . made comments about ‘gays’ (I detest the twisting of that once fine word)
    . . .’gays’ (I detest that term).”

    They (the gay lobby) don’t like anyone using the word “homosexual” because it suggests the action/tendency a little too accurately/graphically and is to the point, whereas “gay” conjures up ambiguity, providing a lack/absence of moral perspective.

    Padre , I believe it could be said that Cardinal Pell has got your 6 on this one:

    From World Catholic Report ; The Battle for God ; May 13, 2011

    “As for same-sex marriage—I avoid the word ‘gay’, because it’s a word that has been colonized by one group and because homosexuals on the whole are as miserable as the rest of us – . . . “

    _________________________

    The longer these airplane pressers continue, the less convincing people are going to need that the air gets much thinner at higher altitudes .

    _________________________

    @ Father Flores , and @Venerator Sti Lot : Thanks for the smiles:

    Father Flores says:
    “As a spiritual child of the Holy Father, I keep getting the impression that he wants me to be seen and not heard.”

    LOL

    Venerator Sti Lot says:
    “O, ye fluent, was it all as hard to follow – as ragged and jumbly and fuzzy and what not – in Italian, as in this translation? (I found myself wondering if someone just fed it to Google Translate, it seemed so garbly so often.”)

    LOL

  32. Ben Kenobi says:

    Fellow ex-prot convert here. One thing to add to what’s been said, my former congregation is known to have had members in the past executed at the stake by Luther and his followers. Extra bonus points to Pope Francis! I wonder if he even understands that not all protestants *like* Luther and in many ways prefer the Catholic church to Luther. That is part of what brought me into the Church, realizing that Luther himself was part of the problem and the horrors that he brought on the universal church. Not what I signed up for nor what I envisioned hearing from a Pope.

    I’m reminded of a thought I’ve had in the past, you act like a gentleman because that is what you are, notwithstanding the conduct of others. My Catholic faith requires me to act *like* a Catholic. Perhaps if I were a Saint like Luther I could simply ignore Francis and go do my own thing and form my own church! I won’t be leaving but I will not miss Pope Francis.

  33. robtbrown says:

    FrJim4321 says,

    Third, it’s going to cause even greater rates of sexual repression and eventually the acting out will occur. Or the rates of depression, alcoholism and other dysfunctions among the clergy will occur.

    Fourth, for the most part candidates who are most dynamic, creative, intelligent and interpersonally adept will be weeded out, further depriving Catholics of the sacraments.

    The seminaries and religious houses of formation I saw 20-35 years ago had weeded out the talented men, who seemed to have preferred having a secular job to living in a zoo.

    If you’re saying that homosexuals can be entertaining, funny, and do great impressions, then I agree. But musical theatre is not a measure of intelligence.

    If you had visited the FSSP seminary when I was teaching there, you would have seen it was loaded with personable, witty men, great at dealing with people. Many were professionally trained, e.g., Chemical Engineer, Emergency Room Physician, Attorney, etc.

    BTW, the two greatest writers in the English language, Chaucer and Shakespeare were both heterosexual, as were Faulkner, Twain, and Frost in America. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure there are any great writers in English who would fit your category.

  34. Kerry says:

    Is the opposite of “marginalized” “YOU WILL BAKE THAT CAKE FOR US!!”…?

  35. Maltese says:

    “The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path.”

    This Pope is the Bishop of Rome; unless he mends his way, his skull too will be an eternal lamp-post in hell, along with the Borgia Popes before him.

    Dante was particularly fond of placing popes in everlasting hell in his Inferno. I don’t really care what gaffe this Pope makes, he is flirting with Fire while trying to flirt with the World.

  36. tioedong says:

    I apologize for previous posts, but I wonder if the Pope recognizes that when he “extends mercy” to lost sheep, he is hurting their victims? Sociopaths and narcissists will use his words to hurt those around them or to manipulate them. But then as a doctor, I work in a reality based occupation and know evil exists.

  37. Clinton R. says:

    Anyone who is Catholic and treats the Bride of Christ harshly is troubling. That the one who is using boxing gloves on the Church is the Pope is deeply upsetting. I guess being Catholc means always having to say you are sorry. Sorry for the Church converting pagan lands. Sorry for preaching the Gospel. Sorry for saving souls. Sorry for not wanting practicing homosexuals to end up in hell. Sorry for the Church not giving proper respect to false religions (especially Islam) and heretics (notably Martin Luther). How much more damage will Pope Francis do to the Church? I shudder at the thought. All we can do is pray. And be prepared. As Father always reminds us, Go to Confession.

  38. Kerry says:

    With JamesM about “justification” I find myself in agreement. These past six Sunday evenings a local Lutheran pastor (and friend) had one hour re-confirmation classes for his parishioners. (Background, he would really like to quote “become Roman Catholic”. During his confirmation as a Lutheran minister, he “shuddered” at the ‘I renounce the Pope’ words. He would ‘fly to Rome’ if he believed “and on this Rock, I will build my church”. We pray for him.)
    He explained justification as “being found not guilty”. It yet makes no sense to me. All there were able to recited from the Lutheran catechism what they believed; some of the recitations explaining the particular prayers were longer than the prayers. They, and he are very uneasy with supernatural realities, and “mysticism”. My impression is that (their) Lutheranism is a very thin meager gruel, that seems satisfied having memorized the answers, but have not noticed the only one asking question is the Pastor. About the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption I asked, “Are they worthy of belief?”, a question he found incisive, and to which had no scriptural “yes, but”. He has agreed to come to a Thursday morning Latin mass with us some time. After the one hour class was a social hour where he asked me questions and we talked, at one table, and the others, 15-20 or so sat at another table, as the local parlance describes it, “visiting”. These are “abortion and contraception are wrong” Lutherans. One of them still has and is reading our copy of Robert Reilly’s book ‘Making Gay OK’, and the attorney in town borrowed Reilly’s ‘Closing of the Muslim Mind’. I did sense some part of their Lutheran beliefs includes some “We are not Baptists”, and “Nor are we Catholics”. No was was unpleasant or hostile. He also thinks many Lutherans believe things about Roman Catholics which are simply not true. One is reminded of how tidy physics was around 1900, until a certain obscure Swiss patent clerk began asking difficult questions. (I did also ask him when was the last time Lutherans called Mary “Blessed”, and, as he admitted, “Another good question”.

  39. DonL says:

    Ah, do we now need to alter the out-of-date prodding’s of St. Paul? Must we now discern and apologize?

  40. spock says:

    Do we know what HE Cardinal Marx actually said? Is there a translation of that as well? Did he hit the same points as the pope or did he go further? Since that was the Genesis of all of this, it would seem to have some importance for our problem ……

  41. Raymond says:

    Bergoglio happens…..again!

  42. Sonshine135 says:

    For far too long, we Christian men have allowed effeminacy in our households to bloom from normal attractions to unnatural desires, thus being effeminate as well and shirking our God-given vocational responsibilities. Too many households have men who have retreated into pornography, sports, games or other trivial addictions thus abdicating responsibilities of leading the home to the wife. When men fail to lead, the result is the society we find ourselves in today. It isn’t much different then when Adam was nowhere to be found when Eve took the fruit from the tree. Where was he?

    That is what we should be on our knees and asking forgiveness for- shirking our responsibilities to our vocations as husbands and fathers.

  43. LarryW2LJ says:

    I have nothing to apologize for. I have never discriminated against or mistreated anyone based on their sexual choices. However, if I am supposed to apologize for other Catholics who HAVE been guilty of this sin, do you think there’s any chance the radical arm of the LGBT crowd will apologize to us for their members who have committed sacrilegious acts in our Churches? What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.

  44. benedetta says:

    LOL ^ Kerry. And not only that but organized, powerful, criminal things as well. Not victimhood. And, gives the wider gay community a very horrible image — as if it needs rely upon those things in order to bring about tolerance, or thinks them just and correct and that others ought to join in as much as possible. And even from within the Church, bizarrely.

    I think good, decent people who are far from bigots are really just super tired of the false accusations lobbed at them incessantly. No matter the power and the criminality or abuser behind the charge, it simply doesn’t make it right, and it has the boy who cried wolf effect. It is just a witch hunt generated by a mob. What exactly does one apologize for, and to whom? And when it’s that the one to whom one apologizes is far from lily white innocent, hides behind a label, and in fact has all the power and is overindulging in criminal harassment themselves, then what? I wish I knew…

  45. Pingback: Pope Francis: Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays |

  46. HeatherPA says:

    Hang on to the ship, everyone. We are going through a typhoon, and the captain appears confused about the course, even though the ship is sound. It would be utter madness to jump overboard a sound ship in a typhoon, even if the wheelhouse is in chaos.

  47. Hidden One says:

    It becomes ever more difficult for me to justify paying any real attention to the activities of the present pontiff, especially since the non-Catholics around me ignore them too. Reading the present pope’s words doesn’t actually help me either to become who I want to be or to do the works that it belongs to me to do. May God bless Pope Francis.

  48. LarryW2LJ says:

    HeatherPA:

    “Hang on to the ship, everyone. We are going through a typhoon, and the captain appears confused about the course, even though the ship is sound. It would be utter madness to jump overboard a sound ship in a typhoon, even if the wheelhouse is in chaos.”

    Like this very much – not enjoying the chaos, however.

  49. benedetta says:

    See, I think people read that presser and wonder what he is really talking about. Certainly not the American Catholic scene — I don’t know maybe it’s just my generation but one looks around and the notion of being “marginalized” just rings hollow. For my entire life as a cradle Catholic, I have only known in Catholic parish and religious life, media, leadership in all structures and levels, pastoring, and lay leadership, an empowered gay Catholic participation and direction. I have really never known anything but that. And I have never had an issue or problem with that, and I am pretty sure the vast majority of Catholics have really not had any difficulty there. Far from being marginalized, we all experience gay leadership on all levels of Catholic life, in this country, and I’m fairly certain this is so in most other places in the world as well. Lay and pastor. And elite religious life etc. I’ve always been docile to that direction and supportive of my Catholic parishes and leadership, in time talent and treasure and in kindness and hope and compassion. I have never thought it for me to judge and of course being of a certain generation I have never found one’s identity or orientation objectionable. Apart from empowered leadership I also have never experienced anything but kind and generous welcome to gay persons within parishes, schools, apostolates, etc. Even in many parishes gay leadership is exercised over Catholics from those not Catholic, and all goes alone fine. So I just don’t get what he is talking about or referring to in the sense that people need to apologize. The reality and experience is just so contra to that which he is talking about that it just makes one wonder what in the world he could be talking about.

    On the other hand, I have seen people violently harm pro life, inexplicably. Sometimes in these places that advertise tolerance and compassion to all. And, I’ve seen that extended even to a disabled youngster. So that to me is the ultimate in marginalization and seems to cry out for apology at the very least, and certainly walking with and accompanying in solidarity, but no one seems very likely, after how many years, to extend that, and the narrative that just for being pro life one deserves to be marginalized, for others to turn their back to you, to make of you some kind of political hay and intrigue for profit, well. Pro life is to me aside from being a Gospel value is a gay value as well, because Nazi type eugenics always slates out the perceived as different or other for slaughter and is ongoing. Just because their partisan politics aligns with consumptive abortion based upon greed doesn’t really rationally connect to the quest for human dignity but undermines it. I guess this is why no apology will be forthcoming. Among parish/hierarchical leadership which embraces slaughter of innocents as fine and good, violent harassment and harm to a child in pursuit of one’s agenda is also something to be countenanced as fine and good, and denying him his basic dignity is nothing when one considers the support for tens of millions of innocents denied life at the outset all for political power and greed.

  50. HeatherPA says:

    An approximation of this I heard in a sermon from Fr. Philip Wolfe, FSSP, a few years ago and it has resonated with me ever since, especially in these times.
    The old audio Sancto sermons I saved before they took down the website have been a great source of comfort in this last year. I hope they have it sorted out and start a new site soon.

  51. redsaint says:

    I used to care and freak out… Then I remembered I follow Christ as my king, not a pope. My wife and I have a pretty easy response to all the consternation. Pick up the catechism. We go to traditional Latin mass, and lately a Ukranian Catholic mass, and we fallback on good ole fashioned doctrine. There’s just too much confusion [author of confusion, anyone?] and it takes too much emotional investment to talk, rant, wring my hands. Christ will protect his Bride. My little family may be the last ones in the pews, but we will go down with the Latin mass, doctrine, and a peace-filled smile from not worrying. Unless it is exclaimed ex cathedra, I really just don’t care. Yes. I get it and where we are headed. So be it. I might kick the bucket in the commute home or see a bright flash and be standing in front of the Judge. Frequent confession, Communion, live with love, pray hope and don’t worry. It has been a HUGE relief to let go. I got some food stocked, know how to use my horrible, disgusting, wannabe assault rifles, but the reality of the world is that I most likely would never be able to squeeze off a round against a well trained group of oppressive folks. I’m military. I know. So be it. I’ve lived and loved a life better than 99% of persecuted Christians around the world and through history. I have nothing but gratitude for God’s grace and mercy for a sinner like me. I only want heaven for my wife and children and I. That’s it. If this pope or the next 10 popes can help get me there, praise Jesus. If not, please move out of the way… I’ve got a mass to attend and Christ to adore. Folks. RELAX. God is in heaven. Christ is on his throne. Fight the good fight where and for as long as you can, but man, RELAX. God is good. PAX!

  52. DcnJohnSaturus says:

    I would have thought that the most alarming excerpt from the “presser” would be this gem: “And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he [i.e. Luther] did not err.”

    Luther “did not err” regarding justification? Wow.

  53. The Masked Chicken says:

    HeatherPA wrote:

    “Hang on to the ship, everyone. We are going through a typhoon, and the captain appears confused about the course, even though the ship is sound. It would be utter madness to jump overboard a sound ship in a typhoon, even if the wheelhouse is in chaos.”

    Oh, I get it – the Skipper and Gilligan are in the wheelhouse and we are on a three hour tour :)

    The Chicken

  54. redsaint says:

    Use the force of holiness, you must ;)~

  55. AnnTherese says:

    Tioedong said, “I wonder if the Pope recognizes that when he “extends mercy” to lost sheep, he is hurting their victims?” Isn’t this exactly what Jesus did and said? “I came to seek and save the lost.” (Luke. 19.10) Maybe saving begins with mercy.

  56. Grumpy Beggar says:

    The Masked Chicken says:
    “. . . Oh, I get it – the Skipper and Gilligan are in the wheelhouse and we are on a three hour tour :)

    The Chicken”

    FOCL

    (ps: Thanks a lot Chicken. . . now I’ve got that that crazy tune stuck in my crazy head for the rest of the day . . . Please someone pour me a tall cool glass of Gregorian Chant) .

  57. The Masked Chicken says:

    “Tioedong said, “I wonder if the Pope recognizes that when he “extends mercy” to lost sheep, he is hurting their victims?” Isn’t this exactly what Jesus did and said? “I came to seek and save the lost.” (Luke. 19.10) Maybe saving begins with mercy.”

    One must be careful to define what is and what is not mercy. There are a couple of different definitions flying around. Mercy that calls an evil a good is not mercy. Christ did not extend that kind of mercy. He called an evil and evil and extended mercy to those who repented of their sins. How can one extend mercy to someone who is in sin and refuses to repent, except by admonishing the sinner? To make one feel comfortable in their sin is not mercy of any kind.

    Now, there are many people who are in misery through no fault if their own and St. Thomas talks about that (Summa, II.II, Q. 30, art. 1), but there are, also, people who are in misery through their own bad choices or poor understanding of morality and mercy, in that case, consists, primarily, in correcting the defects in understanding so that they may choose better. Thus, admonishing sinners is sometimes the best mercy one can give. Now, if a person has a habit of sin and is sincerely trying to turn away from it, mercy takes a different form – of support, but one ought not support the bad habit, itself, by pretending that it is anything other than a bad habit. Thus, I see no reason to apologize to homosexuals for pointing out their sinful behavior, when it occurs, but without more specificity with regards to the type of mercy he wants us to show, I have no idea what the Holy Father is talking about. If people are uncharitable towards homosexuals simply by virtue of their disordered appetite, then that is a sin, obviously, but there is no sin in holding in ones mind the fact that something that is disordered is, indeed, disordered.

    The Chicken

  58. Lavrans says:

    For those questioning the value of just discrimination with regard to men with same-sex attraction entering Holy Orders, I would like to point out that over 80% of all sexual abuse that occurred within the Catholic Church in the United States of America involved adult same-sex attracted male on teenage boys. By definition, this is homosexual ephebophilic behavior (adult man on teen boy). In order to eliminate this problem, one has two options, since psychiatric intervention proved to be a massive failure in past decades. One, you could eliminate the presence of teen boys in the Church. This, of course, is absurd. Two, you could eliminate same-sex attracted men in the priesthood. This, of course, is the correct and proper path. A same-sex attracted man, who acts on those desires, cannot be a husband and father by definition (in the real, actual senses of those words and not the legal constructs of the last 15 minutes or so). All the same, a same-sex attracted man seeking to act on those desires cannot be married to the Church nor be a spiritual father.

  59. Serviam says:

    There is! Go to audio sancto and listed there are the three sites that now have the sermons being updated. Reginaprophetarum.org is updated most frequently. They are AWESOME!

  60. HeatherPA says:

    You get me.
    :)

  61. AnnTherese says:

    Jesus often extended mercy before sinners repented. Those he told to “go and sin no more”— well, we don’t know what they did later. But I do believe Mercy heals. Jesus certainly was merciful to outcasts, sinners or not— labeled and judged by others, even the “disordered” (what a demeaning term for a human being). Chicken, God’s mercy is beyond our knowing and imagining. I am grateful Francis reminds us of this.

  62. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    Meanwhile, another Cardinal discusses the propriety of apologizing in another context:

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/07/02/african-cardinal-demands-apology-abortion-genocide-black-babies-u-s/