According to the Secretum meum mihi blog, the paper ABC Color of Asunción, the president of the bishops conference of Paraguay, H.E. Mons. Ignacio Gogorza stated that the bishops meeting at Aparecida in "unanimously accepted the idea of the Vatican" about the Motu Proprio:
"Gogorza said that the bishops who were in Aparecida unanimously accepted the idea of the Vatican"
Gogorza dijo que los obispos que estaban en Aparecida aceptaron por unanimidad la idea del Vaticano y la actual forma de celebrar la misa en los distintos idiomas. Aclaró que no se cambiará la liturgia, y que si en Paraguay hay un grupo que quiere celebrar la misa de esa forma, podrá hacerlo.
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As much as this must sound odd, considering the history of missionary work, the European Bishops can learn from the Latin Americans.
We’ve had our hopes up and down for a long time, but there is clearly a momentum building.
Yes, excellent news about the Church in Latin America. Beautiful.
Not surprising. The Europeans need a big wake up call.
How empty must their churches become?
V CONFERENCIA GENERAL
DEL EPISCOPADO LATINOAMERICANO Y DEL CARIBE
DOCUMENTO CONCLUSIVO
Versión no oficial
109. Lamentamos cierto clericalismo, algunos intentos de volver a una eclesiologÃa y espiritualidad anteriores al Concilio Vaticano II, algunas lecturas y aplicaciones reduccionistas de la renovación conciliar, la ausencia de un sentido de autocrÃtica, de una auténtica obediencia y de ejercicio evangélico de la autoridad, los moralismos que debilitan la centralidad de Jesucristo, las infidelidades a la doctrina, a la moral y a la comunión, nuestras débiles vivencias de la opción preferencial por los pobres, no pocas recaÃdas secularizantes en la vida consagrada, la discriminación de la mujer y su ausencia frecuente en los organismos pastorales. Tal como lo manifestó el Santo Padre en el Discurso Inaugural de nuestra Conferencia, “se percibe un cierto debilitamiento de la vida cristiana en el conjunto de la sociedad y de la propia pertenencia a la Iglesia Católicaâ€35.
I read the actual report found on ABC Digital’s website, after registering for access, and I found that while the Bishop says that their was unanimous acceptance of the “Vatican’s idea” the entire thrust of the article is to make it clear that nothing will change except for those few people out there that might wish the Mass, as the article puts it, “in the Tridentine style”
One of the interesting points in the article is that the Bishops says: “y que si en Paraguay hay un grupo que quiere celebrar la misa de esa forma, podrá hacerlo. “and that if there is a group who wishes to celebrate the Mass in that form, they will be able to do so. That the Bishop would have said “a group” instead of “groups”, which would imply many people, indicates that he would be surprised if in Paraguay the old rite were celebrated at all.
The article also says (and these are the reporter’s words, not the Bishop’s) that the reason that the Pope will issue the “Motus Proprio” is to make room for those who have distanced themselves from the Church because of the liturgy approved by Vatican II. The article makes it seem as if the Motus Proprio is not for the “ordinary” Catholic, who it is assumed would continue to go to the Mass of Paul VI, but for those who have fallen away and need a place in the Church.
This also proves that Pope Benedict’s delay on releasing it is working to get buy-in before it gets out there. To me, this is better than just putting it out there and then watch people dissent because they haven’t bought in. Granted, they should be humbly obedient, as they should have been when Pope John Paull II asked that the old Mass be granted generously.
But, this approach in giving them time to “get over it and get with it” is a good one, in my humble opinion. There are some who will never give in, but the more who do, the smoother it will be rolled out.
Good news, Fr. Z. With all the delays, though, I’m wondering which will happen first:
1.) The motu proprio’s release
or
2.) The opening of “Metro Linea C” in Rome. :P
Raymundus: 2.) The opening of “Metro Linea C” in Rome.
Now that’s jus’ hittin’ below the belt! o{]:¬)
Fr. Z, I turned on your webcam this morning just in time to have the pleasure of seeing you celebrate Mass. I almost cracked open my Missal to pray the Mass with you, but I wasnt sure if it is possible for someone to participate in a Mass and recieve the blessing if they are only watching it through electronic means. Would this be possible for me to do?
Father John
Interesting news from Rorate Caeli from New Catholic:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2007/06/changes-in-curia.html
In answer to the inexorable question, New Catholic responds, “Promoveatur ut amoveatur.”
Comments?
Edmund
My impression from people who were there, the report from the Paraguayan bishop is so much wishful thinking. There was almost no interest in the question. Participants thought Cardinal Castrillon’s intervention concerning the MP was strange and out of place, as there is so little demand for the traditional liturgy in Latin America.
Hey Father, do you have any pics of the anti-Bush protests?
scratch that…I forgot you weren’t there.
I went to the Secretum Meum site and read the whole thing, and I see a lot of words saying very little (cf. Fr José above).
In four years of living in Mexico I have heard mass everywhere from major basilicas to tiny chapels out on the sierra and, while some of what I have seen was moving, in its way, I have never seen a single mass here that was liturgically or musically good. Nor have I found any significant interest in good liturgy, tridentine or novus ordo.
Can’t speak for the rest of Latin America, can’t even say I know Mexico very well, but I have a hard time thinking the motu proprio would be anything but a dead letter here.
For those who keep saying “dead letter” they apparently dont realize what is taking place. The MP is the BEGINNING of the good things to come, think of it as St John the Baptist. UNTIL the MP is issued those who CAN do something will still have their hands tied…AFTER it is issued then a sort of rebuilding effort will start (I believe they will make progress very quickly).
Everyone wants to be on the winning team. I predict that after the Motu Proprio bishops all over will almost turn Tridentine friendly practically overnight!
Nick, it’s a different game here. The people, 99+ per cent of them, are satisfied with the status quo. I’d say our bishop would authorize the tridentine mass tomorrow morning if a dozen people wanted it. In this diocese of over 100,000 catholics I doubt you could find a dozen interested in a tridentine mass.
As for the US, I think your letter is right on.
Joseph: I’d say those bishops down there (as well as many up here) are missing the Holy Father’s point. As I understand his books and statements written over a period of years, he thinks the TLM is needed not so much for the 12 who want it in that diocese of yours, but for the other 99,988 Catholics there who may have little interest in good liturgy of any kind.
Or don’t know that they do. The basis of the rapid growth of the TLM in the U.S. is not pre-Vatican II folks waking up old memories, but young folks discovering — usually more or less by chance — their heritage that the Church has deprived them of. (Incidentally, most of these young folks whom I know demand good Novus Ordo liturgy just as much as the TLM, especially since realistically they’re not going to get the TLM daily.)
A bishop who’s worth his mitre might be able to multiply that 12 by a hundred or a thousand with a solid evangelical effort in true obedience to Christ’s “Go forth …” command. So what can one say about a bishop who says Nobody in my diocese is interested in good liturgy, so I’m not either. Doesn’t he have the sworn duty to do whatever it takes to get them interested? If he doesn’t even try, you’ve got to wonder what he’s interested in.
Henry: I am broadly in agreement with you. As I was writing, I was in fact thinking of those 99,988 who need something more edifying even though they don’t know it and would, at least many of them, resist an improvement if it came.
As for the bishops taking initiative, I think they will have to be encouraged from above, since the laity is apathetic. If/when that encouragement comes — asking them not just to permit traditional liturgy (trid or NO) but actively to promote it — I think many will respond well. But their efforts will face an uphill push.
As I said, it’s a different game here.
A while back I posted an article concerning the large group of Catholic faithful who will be the real beneficiaries of the MP. The average person “in the pew” doesn’t even know about the pending Motu Proprio, reforms in the works, translation of the Missal or ANYTHING that we talk about daily here. What they will respond to, however, is beautiful, reverent litugy that is made available to them without having to attend an “Indult Mass” at a church 100 miles away at 7:00 in the morning. I truly believe, in my heart, that once there are such liturgies on the schedule in parishes, or at least in close by parishes, word will get out, and people will attend. Many will not know about, nor care about the Theological distinctions between NO a TLM, but will only see beauty and reverence versus informality and banality. This is not really about TLM enthusiasts versus Novus Ordo enthusiasts.
Everyone wants to be on the winning team. I predict that after the Motu Proprio bishops all over will almost turn Tridentine friendly practically overnight!
Methinks this one of the reasons why traditional Catholics were so strongly vilified in the 70’s and 80s – they were definitely not on the “winning team”. Very sad.
My translation of the original Spanish:
“5th General Conference of CELAM
Conclusive document
Unnofficial version
…
109. We regret a certain clericalism, some attempts to return a pre-Vatican II ecclesiology and spirituality, certain reduccionist readings and applications of the conciliar renewal…”
THIS DOCUMENT CANNOT BE APPROVED BY THE HOLY FATHER! NOT WITH THOSE LINES IN IT!
THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK AGAINST THE HEMENEUTIC OF CONTINUITY (“reduccionist readings and applications of the conciliar renewal”), AGAINST THE REFORM OF THE REFORM, AGAINST TRIDENTINE COMMUINITIES, AGAINST EVERITHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH TRADITION (“pre Vatican II spirituality”). As if a Council could change the spirituality of the Church!
IT IS AN ENDORSEMENT OF THE BLURRING OF THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE MINISTERIAL PRIESTHOOD AND THE FAITHFUL (“certain clericalism”; “pre-Vatican II ecclesiology”)! There is only one ecclesiology, the ecclesiology of the Church of all times, of Her unchanging essential constitution!
IT IS REVOLTING TO SEE THE LATIN AMERICAN BISHOPS SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND THEY PROBABLY WANTED TO SAY MUCH MORE.
THIS IS ALREADY THE LANGUAGE OF OPEN REBELLION AGAINST THE “HERMENEUTIC OF CONTINUITY” THAT, ACCORDING TO THE HOLY FATHER, THE VISIBLE HEAD OF THE CHURCH AND VICAR OF JESUS CHRIST, IS THE ONLY INTERPRETATIVE OPTION TO RIGHTLY READ THE ACTS OF THE COUNCIL. AGAIN, THIS IS OPEN REBELLION.
THE LANGUAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT IS VERY CLEAR, AND IN BETWEEN THE LINES ONE CAN SEE THAT THE BISHOPS ARE VERY DISPLEASED WITH THE MORE CONSERVATIVE TREND NOW IN VOGUE WITH THE HOLY SEE AND WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION, ONE CAN SEE THAT WHAT THE BISHOPS PREFER ARE THE ABUSES, THE SCREAMING, PROTESTANT-LIKE LITURGIES (post Vatican II spirituality), THE TOTAL SUBVERSION OF THE ESSENTIAL CONSTITUTION OF THE CHURCH (what they would call, a contrario sensu, post Vatican II ecclesiology, non-clericalism…, etc).
Its disgusting, disappointing, disturbing. Its a rebellion against the message of the Church. Its the smoke of Satan in charge of the Church in Latin America.
St. Michael, defend us against our Bishops! Mary Most Holy, pray for us to God!