UPDATE 19 Nov. 1948: GMT
I received this statement from Erich Leitenberger, the spokesman for His Eminence Christoph Card. Schönborn, Archbishop of Vienna.
This regards the entry below, where a video of the Mass in question is posted.
Dear Father Zuhlsdorf,
regarding Your blog on the celebration of His Eminence in Wolfsthal I would like to beg you to publish my communiqué of yesterday for the orientation of your public.
Kind regards
Erich Leitenberger
Spokesperson for H.E. Card. Schönborn
The statement, sent to me in English. I touched up the spelling slightly:
Some people have taken serious offense in the Holy Mass for young people which was celebrated by the Viennese Cardinal Christoph Schönborn on the 16th of November in Wolfsthal, a village close to the Austrian-Slovakian border.
In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.
The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century. The “flat cake” is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days – this is the metropolis located at river Tigris where Christians still testify the truth of Jesus with their own blood.
Werner Pirkner, the spiritual councilor for the Holy Mass in Wolfsthal, and Stephan Bazalka, coordinator of the Catholic Youth, paid highest attention to the fact that when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor.
Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!
I am grateful for the statement from the spokeman for the Cardinal.
A few points.
First, we all want to give the young people and the Cardinal Archbishop the benefit of doubt. The video production values may not have been the highest, but they were certainly of sufficient quality to show some of the things which happened. That said, it is sometimes hard to tell what was happening when.
For example, while the spokesperson said that no liturgical specifications were violated, that is rubrics, etc., I am unfamiliar with the rubrics which directs us to write petitions on balloons. Perhaps that was before Mass. I don’t know.
Also, I am not sure what material the vessels were made from. Perhaps those were, in fact, the very best that community had available. But I believe that it may have been some kind of glazed pottery or glass.
I am sure that at the altar, the greatest care was taken when breaking the Eucharist in its substantial form. However, the video shows young people holding in their hands large pieces of the Eucharist and eating from them bit by bit. It seems to me that this creates a great risk for profanation of the Eucharist.
It am not sure why it is in any way relevant, in the Archdiocese of Vienna, what sort of bread is being used in Mossul on the Tigris. That Christians are still suffering in Mossul doesn’t constitute a good reason for using their style of bread for the Eucharist. It might be a good reason to share that bread together at a reception after Mass, but not during Mass. That is just my opinion.
Finally, I cannot in my wildest imagination that the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna was involved in the planning of what we saw in the video. Surely this is what he discovered on his arrival. I recall His Eminence from many years ago in Rome when the Catechism was in preparation. He was very kind. Surely, this is one of those situations wherein a visting bishop is surprised to find all sorts of well-meaning people doing objectively absurd things and, being very kind, not wanting to hurt them.
Let this be a lesson to us all.
END UPDATE
ORIGINAL ENTRY
Rivaling everything ridiculous done during the three days of darkness in LA, Vienna [actually Wolfsthal] has thrown its miter into the ring for sheer liturgical dopiness.
Behold a video of Card. Schoenborn’s Mass in Wolfsthal for a gathering of young people.
[flv]08_11_17_SchoenbornMass.flv[/flv]
I think his use of the pallium makes it all that much more solemn, don’t you?
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The Cardinal’s card to God reads: “Get me out of here!”
Perhaps…but the big smile on his face doesn’t.
If Cardinals will not stand up for the profound liturgical vision of Pope Benedict XVI then all of the Pope’s theological insight as put down on pen are totally pointless.
I think it is really funny (and a little sad) that so many people look at traditional Catholic liturgy and criticize it for “going backward” or “being stuck in the past” when it is painfully obvious that the proponents of relative liturgies as entertainment and the so-called “progressives” are clearly stuck in the 1970s.
Did anyone notice those same ugly blue-gold vestments Archbishop Marini had Pope Benedict wear during his visit to Austria?
I am really surprised at Cardinal Shoenborn’s letting this happen. Weird.
That a Cardinal, a Prince of the Church, would preside over such foolishness bespeaks the diabolical disorientation that threatens the entire Church in our time. As an altar boy in the late 1940s and early 1950s, I could never have imagined in all my life that the Church would experience what it is going through today. May Almighty God forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass among us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, Amen.
Poor old Christoph Schonborn has finally lost the plot! Even here in England over a decade ago Basil ‘Loyal Opposition’ Hume put a stop to that sort of “Mass” which some had been organising for the ‘yoof’ once he was made aware of such things as the use of illicit matter that we here see a Cardinal using. After everything else that he has allowed in his cathedral and so on, Cardinal Schonborn really should now resign and take himself off to a monastery.
I really don’t know what to think of this video. On the one hand, it’s just downright sacrilege and Cardinal Schönborn should have had the wherewithal to call it off. On the other hand, you have to wonder if Schönborn knew what he was getting into when he agreed to preside. Maybe I’m reading into it, but behind his eyes there almost seems to be a look of shock at what’s going on (not in the still shot on Fr. Z’s homepage, but at other points during the video).
Whenever I see displays like this, I wonder what gives “youth leaders” the idea that this stuff will appeal to young people or, beyond that, do anything for them in terms of formation.
I forget, what is the cardinal’s record on co-operating with SP?
How does this happen? Schonborn is by all accounts a first-rate theologian, the highest ranking bishop in a country that maintained pockets of Catholic culture well past the midpoint of the twentieth century, and is himself part of a family woven into Central Europe’s Catholic civilization for centuries.
From obvious lunatics like Mahoney, or dimwitted careerists, this is to be expected. From someone serious, forty years into the Great Renewal, it is deeply disappointing.
That Mass was an attempt to choke any person who wishes to receive on the tongue.
Oh my oh my! What’s next–steak tortillas?
Hard to believe.
Mike
Was there even valid matter for the consecration? That bread looked mighty puffy and filled with holes!
Uh . . . this leaves me speechless. Cardinal Schönborn??? The Church in the United States seems to be slowly extricating itself from this kind of liturgical dementia, even if there are still some sanity-free zones out West. Three days of darkness indeed.
Wait, so they can sing German and Latino-American and English songs… why not Latin?
And what’s with the girl sitting up with the celebrants?
Please pray.
How the…..
Cardinal Schonborn is, in many accounts, described as the next Benedict. I cannot possibly think that he knew what was coming until it was too late. To do otherwise would destroy my faith in the next generation of the Princes of the Church. There must be a back story into how this came to pass.
We shouldn’t worry about profanation from the thousands of crumbs from that bread because its use must have rendered the whole thing invalid.
what the hell???!!!
We shouldn’t worry about profanation from the thousands of crumbs from that bread because its use must have rendered the whole thing invalid.
Leavened bread – which I’m not sure was used since unleavened bread can be quite thick – is illicit* but not invalid matter for Holy Mass. So yes, we should be worried about profanation.
That was, without a doubt, the worst excerpts from a Mass that I have ever seen.
*In the Roman Rite of course – it is licit in most if not all of the Eastern Rites.
My anti-spam word is “pray 4 bishops.” How very relevant.
You have to love the credit at the end: “Gloria.TV. the more catholic the better.”
I’m heading out to Panera for some of that bread!
“And what’s with the girl sitting up with the celebrants?”
She’s the altar server as can be seen in the video when she washes the Cardinal’s hands at the Lavabo.
Mine was “do the red.” Indeed.
I will say that His Eminence must be confused. He was the guiding force for the Catechism of the Catholic Church and is now a strong voice for critiquing evolutionism and promoting the intelligent design models.
What is interesting here is the use of leavened bread. Now, all the abuses we see can be “justified” (lamentably) by liturgical loopholes or the “necessity” for “youth-oriented” liturgies or whatever. The use of leavened bread, especially in the way we see it in the video, can in no way be justified by any document, any precedent, nothing!
We can assault the liturgy in two ways: one concerns extrinsic things, i.e. lay people in the sanctuary, female servers, balloons, rock music, crazy vestments; the other way assaults the liturgy at its core, i.e. first by distorting the idea of the priest (by acting contrary to the liturgy) and more importantly by altering the matter of the sacrament. If the bread was simply leavened, then the Mass was valid but illicit. The Cardinal, as celebrant of the liturgy, has the duty to rectify a gross sacramental abuse.
This is a disgrace. Before we could have said that the Cardinal turned a blind eye to the Viennese abuses or that he was somehow ignorant. Now there is no excuse.
How sad.
This is really deeply disappointing, as well as shocking. Surely Cardinal Schonborn had been misled somehow.
I don’t see any particular cause to doubt the validity of the matter, though. Leavened bread is illicit in the Roman Rite, but it certainly isn’t invalid. I suppose there might have been other impurities in the bread that would have made it invalid matter.
It would be nice to be able to give His Emminence the benefit of the doubt, and to assume that this was a one-off which was sprung on him out of the blue. However, if you click on this old kreuznet article, you will see that when he launched these grotesque Youth Masses in 2005 (at a Mass during which he received and sent messages on his mobile phone during the Offertory) he ordered the young of the diocese to “remain true to this experiment”. If this is conservatism, Heaven help us!!
http://www.kreuz.net/article.2017.html
Tie-die vestments?
I’m heatbroken.
Wow. That ranks right up there with some of John Paul II’s Papal Masses – specifically some of his hideous World Youth Day Masses. Of course, if the mass in question would have been celebrated by John Paul II the Great, we would have heard nothing but praise from all but the “radical Traditionalists”. Let us hope the Church hierarchy returns to sanity, and the blind followers of everything novel will return to the faith that their forefathers professed.
when did lifeteen overthrow Europe?
I didn’t see any “shock” on the Cardinal’s face at any point, especially when he himself released one of the balloons. It’s a disgrace. I hope Pope Benedict is calling him for a sit-down sometime soon.
As far as I’m concerned the Church in Vienna needs some pontificial attention. Not only because of this so-called Mass.
Quite recently a scandal within the diocese of Vienna was discovered. The so-called “Pro-Life” group which is part of the “Catholic Action”, which is financed by the Bishops conference, give out consultation certificates for abortions!! Where is the church heading too? And the Bishops conference knows exactly what is going on and still finances these things!!!
May God have mercy on these poor souls that are murdered with the knowledge of Holy Mother Church!!
Isn’t the first melody some sort of Jewish folk song? The second melody is well-known in evangelical praise and worship circles, etc. Then there are the balloons, the ceramic chalices. I fail to see the artistic unity and sublime beauty, the worship …
It is ‘High School Musical’! I thought the Cardinal was considered ‘papabile’? It appears the Austrians have turned their church into a gymn – AKA, St. Joan of Arc, MPLS – although St. Joan’s is more liturgically correct now days.
dcs: Leavened bread – which I’m not sure was used since unleavened bread can be quite thick – is illicit [in the Roman Rite] but not invalid matter for Holy Mass. So yes, we should be worried about profanation.
In that case, we should be more than worried about profanation. It happened on a massive scale. I dread to think how much of the Blessed Sacrament was swept off the floor by the sacristan afterwards.
I still want to give the Cardinal the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he is entirely liturgically sound and orthodox, but lacks the courage to call off the whole thing at the last minute. This doesn’t make him a bad cardinal, just imperfect like the rest of us. Let’s pray that we all may receive the courage to defend against this sort of thing.
sad
This is just disgusting and, I hope, finally stops neocons from telling me how “conservative” Shoenborn is.
The only reason this doesn’t sadden me is because it’s so invalid at least our Lord isn’t present to have to witness it.
When I first watched this video, I assumed it was some European modern art piece, poking fun of our Church — to be displayed in some minor gallery.
Having read the comments, it appears I am wrong. How terrible.
Samuel J. Howard (18 November 2008 @ 10:20 am) said “She’s the altar server as can be seen in the video when she washes the Cardinal’s hands at the Lavabo.”
What, couldn’t they find an alb and cincture for her?
Horrible and an especially scandalous let-down because it is Cardinal Schonborn whom I always thought was more solid. When the “orthodox” prelates simply blow off liturgical law and sensibility with a grin, a wave, and a balloon, can we really be surprised how trivial the sacred liturgy has become? Can we really expect priests to bother putting the slightest effort into celebrating Mass worthily or Catholics to have any understanding or love of the Sacred Liturgy or their Faith itself, which is supposed to flow from the Holy Eucharist? I wouldn’t blame a person one bit if they thought that the faith was childish, silly and not worth taking seriously and then saw this video clip and were strengthened in that position. I would not blame them, I would blame the Cardinal. You reap what you sew.
I am thoroughly confused by this display. I thought Schoenborn was a conservative, and a close ally to Benedict, even part of his ‘cabinet’ along with Cardinal George. Btw, Chris, what makes you this this mass was invalid???
These youth Masses remind me of some sentiments of St. Basil the Great during another time when crazy things were going on in the churches(letter 90):
“The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived.”
what makes you this this mass was invalid???
We can only hope that something seen or unseen rendered it invalid, so the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Himself was not really present to be desecrated in such a sacrilegious manner.
It occurred to me that it would have been gratifying — and perhaps even redeeming — if the Cardinal had set aside any strictures of canon law and simply excommunicated the most flagrant participants on the spot, starting with the priest clapping hands at what I took to be the oblation of the victim.
Not in a position to watch the move atm, though judging from the comments above thats probably for the best.
I do want to comment though that Cardinal Schoenborn does know how to celebrate a reverent Mass, I attended one while in Vienna. No negative comments about that whatsoever (except that it was very crowded, but thats good), actually quite a bit of reception on the tongue too. A pity he appears to deviate from that now. Still, Andrew might be right.
Chris,
What does this even mean: “…finally stops neocons from telling me how “conservative” Shoenborn is.” Do you think there is a conspiracy of urban, east coast, Zionist intellectuals who are going to contact you and tell you which bishops should be considered ‘conservative’? Does that really happen? Or are we having category problems?
It looks like illicit matter for consecration (I am only a layman though).
Are the baloons, loud vestments and lousy vessels supposed to attract youngsters ?
I am so grateful that my TLM community is only a 45 min. drive each way — I would go to the ends of the earth not to expose my children to this sort of thing.
Please pray for this prelate, and all of our church leaders. The Holy Father certainly has his hands full !
Papabile or not Papabile, the “liturgies” of Cardinals Shoenborn and Mahoney are vanishing “brick by brick”. Lets just hope that Shoenborn runs his diocese more efficiently than Mahoney.
“Btw, Chris, what makes you this this mass was invalid???”
Form, matter and intention. While I can’t prove the intention (although common sense guides me), the matter looks more like the sandwhich I had last night and the form, well, good grief did you see the video?
AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!
This is shameful. Stop trying to “speak” to young people with this junk. When I was young, and had to sit through hippy-dippy folk “Masses” in the 70’s, I RAN for the door, until my return 23 years later.
Here’s a thought….why not give these youth groups a beautiful celebrated Mass in the Extraordinary or even Ordinary Form, and turn them on to their rightful heritage as Catholics? I am still seething from this having been denied me in my formative years.
Yup, still in a bad mood….maybe I need to eat.
Semper Fi!
I am very disappointed. I did think he was one of the ‘good guys’. To be a part of this irrevernt Mass was a travesty. And then chunks of bread where crumbs can be all over…
I am sorry this happened; he certainly seemed to be enjoying himself at the party.
Another intellectual heavyweight, liturgical lightweight!
I used to teach at a “catholic” high school out here in Western, MA.
Having endured many such “gym” masses, the cultural pluralism is revolting…any language goes EXCEPT Latin, just to be “PC”.
When the Religious Ed. director followed the lead of the Holy Father(Spring 2008)and set up the N.O. altar of sacrifice with three candles on each side,and a crucifix in the center the visiting priest ordered them removed (!)
When I sang the praises of S.P., the principal a non-habit wearing “sister” (Woe betide you if you called her a Nun) went on a rant about how strict old-school priests used to be and how this is not how the loving Jesus of the Bible would want his priests to act…long story short, I was labeled as “judgemental” by the good sister and suddenly they “did not have the enrollment for the classes that I was teaching”. I now teach at a public school and actually have more of an opportunity to spread the message of Christ than at the “catholic” high school !
Did you notice the songs? They are austrian, so they should speak german, but instead the sing in ENGLISH (listen to the Sanctus).
What kind of “pastoral reason” would you invoke fot that?
So if austrians can sing in English, why can’t they sing in latin too…??
I used to teach at a “catholic” high school out here in Western, MA.
addendum (lapsis mentis): at one such “gym” mass the altar girl held up the chalice at the minor elevation…correct me if I am wrong but isn’t this only to be done by a deacon or priest ?
Examples like this demonstrate how Satan has truly made the liturgy his playground in some places. This kind of farce is diametrically opposed to the respect given by Catholics to the Sacred Liturgy in the days when the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm. How far we have fallen…
Also, to think that a Prince of the Church would participate in such a debacle makes this story even more stunning.
Mary, Queen of the Liturgy, ora pro nobis.
I lived in Austria for 4 years, but in the St. Poelten diocese. The Cardinal often came to where I was and usually celebrated Mass with us. With us, it was always very reverent and dignified and sometimes wholly in Latin (although NO). He even presided over a Pontifical Byzantine Divine Liturgy, which was spectacular. So, he knows good liturgy.
The Masses at the cathedral in Vienna, though, were always a mixed bag. Like, once on the feast of St. Therese, some parts were in Latin with traditional chant–but backed up by jazz saxophone. That’s right, a Gregorian melodies “enhanced” by jazz sax. (Sort of like sprinkling M&Ms on your prime rib…) The offertory included bringing up goofy things, like computers and whatever else we’re grateful for.
So, on the one hand, this video is the absolute worst I’ve seen the Cardinal preside over. The balloons, the cards to God, the heathen dance-club lighting–it’s all very immature. On the other hand, I’m not really surprised about the liturgical trajectory, although I’m rather disturbed by how far it goes.
He’s a reasonably good theologian and very staunch advocate of St. Thomas Aquinas as the foundation of theological training. But liturgically… man.
It had been writtten that he was “papabili!?”
Where are the defenders of our faith?
It would seem to me that our church really does need to become smaller and purer. So many are diluting church teaching…sigh….
This is a cross-post from rorate caeli.
I don’t know why so many in the English-speaking world think of Cardinal Schönborn as a conservative.
He has supported pro-abortion politicians, and given one of them the order of St. Gregory.
He has said that he doesn’t want to change the laws on abortion, because he doesn’t want to punish women who are in trouble.
He openly opposes those, who pray in front of abortion clinics, he has allowed, that blessings are given to homosexual couples in the Cathedral of Vienna and he has allowed to have blasphemous pictures displayed in the diocesan museum.
When American donors threatened to stop giving money, he had one picture taken down, apologized to them and acted as if he had corrected the affair, while several other blasphemous pictures were still on display.
It must also be said, that it is impossible that Cardinal Schönborn was “surprised” as some have suggested, as these masses have been going on for years, with support from the Cardinal, and the priest who organizes them prides himself of being close to the Cardinal and having his approval for everything he does.
One question. The bread used for the communion looks really thick, like it is leavened bread.
So, would the consecration be invalid because of this? I do hope so but why would he, the cardinal, go along with it? Why not a worship service instead of a mass since it seems they are not ready for the mass just yet.
Lord, have mercy! And I thought I had to endure banal liturgy this morning when I visited the local Roman Catholic church in order to meet the new pastor. I guess the opening hymn Lord of the Dance wasn’t so bad after all even though I wanted to laugh while the old people croaked through it, oops poor choice of words, groaned through it.
Something seems very wrong here.
I am relatively new to learning about these things, but as I understand it, the SSPX would describe this Life Teen mess as a fit expression of “New Church.” They, of course, are criticized for that term.
In a recent post, Bishop Williamson wrote that the post VC2 Church seeks “to introduce the new religion of man alongside the Catholic religion of God as to include and not exclude the latter.” In this way, he would argue, the post-VC2 Church does not exhibit heresy and maintains valid sacraments, but has introduced something foreign that weakens and undermines the Church. They wish to keep some separation from this “insanity” in order to remain true to Catholic Tradition (with a capital “T”).
I read that yesterday, and thought that that did not sound right, then I saw this video. Now, I don’t know.
As I understand it, conservative Catholics would counter that the problem since VC2 has been from the abuses of those who fell outside the stream of true Catholic Tradition that flowed through VC2, so that what is needed is a reform of the reform.
Over the past three years, in conservative Catholic churches, however, I have been dismayed to watch the sudden emergence of Life Teen masses. During this same time frame, I have observed and read about music directors aligned with the Church Music Association struggle for years to get their parishes to accept even a set of simple Latin ordinaries and chants during one early morning Mass.
And now, this! Here is a prominent conservative Cardinal, who is the editor of the CCC. As I understand it, the CCC gives faithful catechetical expression to VC2.
Noah’s post above indicates that, far from having this sprung on him unexpectedly, Cardinal Schonborn launched these Youth Masses in 2005 and ordered the young of the diocese to “remain true to this experiment.”
So I have to ask, is this Mass an abuse? Or, given that these masses are supported by the editor of the CCC, is it fair to characterize this Youth Mass as one faithful expression of VC2?
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
If so, should we just accept that these Masses are perfectly fine and the problem is with us who criticize them? Many conservative Catholics would argue that Life Teen Masses provide an valued outreach to the youth. Bishops don’t seem to mind them.
On the other hand, is it possible that the SSPX has a point?
One question: Why is the deacon merely bowing and not kneeling during the consecration? These folks don’t believe in the Real Presence?
Brian, keep reading H.E. Williamson. I just got done reading that same blog entry of his (http://dinoscopus.blogspot.com)
While I don’t go to the SSPX chapel near me, I do believe they are one of the last remnants of true Catholic Faith left in the world. And he is an incredibly bright man.
Henry: one caveat – there really are people who can’t kneel. I’m one of them myself when the gout flares up in a knee.
Very very sad to watch this video. What was this cardinal thinking?
But then again, he lets everybody do concerts in his cathedral so what the heck with the disco mass with strobe lights and baloons. Maybe Schoenborn will do a joint production with Mahoney in the near future, eh?
Opey124 said: The bread used for the communion looks really thick, like it is leavened bread.
Yes, it’s obviously soft and doughy — it’s leavened.
So, would the consecration be invalid because of this?
No. Leavened bread is illicit in the Roman Rite, but does not invalidate the consecration.
I do hope so
I guess you mean you hope the consecration was valid? An invalid Eucharist would make this liturgical travesty even worse, not better.
Fr. Trigilio nailed it……………SAD indeed
I am a Youth Director, and I can say that I have never had to resort to this type of garbage for any reason, least of all under the pretense of making the Mass “relevant.” The Mass IS relevant, and kids need to have solemnity and transcendence. It is what they are all looking foir. My Youth Group goes to Adoration, sings Latin hymns and prays in front of our local abortion clinic and learns about true Catholic doctrine. We do fun stuff, too, but never in the context of the liturgy. I know from experience that if the Church would only give the Youth the timeless Faith of the ages, it would have the same effect now that it did on St. Anthony of Egypt and other young people who heard the call of God through the liturgy.
Below is a link to some pictures of our Pro-Life Walk at a local Planned Parenthood.
http://ospyouth.com/2008/10/jericho-walk.html
I think restricting sodomites and effeminates from the priesthood will have a tremendous effect in about thirty years. We have two young Fraternity priests in our chapel and one appears as the former Navy officer he is, while the other looks military in that he keeps himself trim and well groomed. We have no problem attracting altar boys as both these priest play soccer!
Just when you started feeling a little better about being Latin-rite Catholic you can always depend on one of hierarchs you thought was on you side to stab you in the back and have you asking “why again am I not Orthodox?”
“Brick by Brick”! Ha! Just before the wrecking ball swings back! And LatCaths end up like Homer Simpson, Between a rock and a hard place.
Phillip – “We do fun stuff, too, but never in the context of the liturgy.”
I’m curious. Do you mean “fun” more in the sense of “enjoyable” or more in the sense of “frivolous”?
This video represents another example of a strange cognitive dissonance that I keep running into in the Church. Hierarchs and priests who may be very strong and orthodox on doctrine and/or morals, while having a blind spot for liturgy and tolerating anything that is tossed their way – bad music, armies of altar girls, etc. I haven’t seen a pita bread at Mass for awhile and was thinking we’d gotten over that. Apparently, not everywhere.
As a weak defense, I guess that clergy for these events are often ambushed by the planners. At the same time, then they should take over the planning themselves.
And what is it with Austria? Well, the corruption of the best is the worst.
What does this even mean: “…finally stops neocons from telling me how “conservative” Shoenborn is.”
It means, Matthew, that considerable numbers of prelates, priests, and laity not openly in rebellion have chosen to pursue a vision of the “Spirit of Vatican II” while tactically availing themselves of outward forms of recognisably Catholic piety and practice.
It is now some time since I revised my opinion of the Archbishop of Vienna. Given a disastrous record accumulated over years, any further excuse-making at this point is stark denial. By their fruits you shall know them.
Let Francis Cardinal George have the last word: “Liberal Catholicism is an exhausted project parasitical on a substance that no longer exists. It shows itself unable to pass on the faith in its integrity and is inadequate for fostering the self-surrender called for in Christian marriage, consecrated life and the priesthood.”
Maybe there will be an opening to run a seminary in Argentina for the Cardinal?
Balloons and lightning are definitely over the top.
Bread – this is how unleavened bread looks. The usual stuff is industrialized version of it.
Music – apostles would be outraged to hear it. They would also be outraged to hear organ music and Gregorian chants. They would certainly not recognize the industrialized version of the bread usually used at mass.
I little perspective is in order. Calling the mass invalid is out of place. I am wondering if a few of you would not call Last Supper a sacrilege and an invalid mass (real unleavened bread, certainly plenty of crumbs, no organ music, no Latin).
I wonder how many seeds were planted that day? How many left Mass with the notion that it – and by extention the Catholic Faith – are trivial entertainment venues? How many will then take that notion to its logical end and conclude that The Faith itself is trivial?
In short, how many will be eternally damned *because of this Mass*?
Let us not kid ourselves! “Behaviour that is rewarded, is repeated”!!!!!
Jordanes: I guess you mean you hope the consecration was valid? An invalid Eucharist would make this liturgical travesty even worse, not better.
I believe what Opey was saying was he hopes it was INvalid so that our Lord wasn’t present to witness this disgusting mess. I as well hope it was invalid.
Nothing says “reverence” quite like strobe lights
/sarcasm off
My 14 year-old daughter was looking over my shoulder as Schonborn was puting his prayer on the balloon. She asked, “isn’t that what incense is for?”
Here we go wringing our hands again. I’ve always thought that mass should, by its nature, be for the whole community rather than for only a segment like “youth masses” “old people masses” “clown masses”, etc. since they invariably contain gimmicks of questionable taste and theology. Here, at the beginning, for some bizarre reason is the Jewish song (in Hebrew),Shalom Aleichem, which is sung to welcome the Sabbath in Jewish homes and synagogues. The lyrics:
“Peace upon you, ministering angels, messengers of the Most High, of the Supreme King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be He.
Come in peace, messengers of peace, messengers of the Most High, of the Supreme King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be He.
Bless me with peace, messengers of peace, messengers of the Most High, of the Supreme King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be He.
May your departure be in peace, messengers of peace, messengers of the Most High, of the Supreme King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be He.”
Was this mass on Friday evening by any chance? Will Rome ignore this?
This is sad indeed… the same city I have experienced my first TLM not week ago. So many beautiful churches ready for Our Lord to be worshiped in…
I don’t really understand how you can be an “intellectual heavyweight but liturgical lightweight.” It seems to me that the former should naturally lead to the latter…evidently not?
Stating the obvious: “Shalom Aleichem” is NOT Trinitarian.
I’m sorry, but I just think he should have refused this if this was “forced” upon him.
But, he is a Cardinal and the archbishop. How anything like this can be “forced” upon him
is unimaginable. Sacrilege is a greater evil than offending someone by cancelling such
foolishness. I don’t know the situation, but no matter what the excuses, this is scandalous.
>Stating the obvious: “Shalom Aleichem” is NOT Trinitarian.
Stating the obvious: you don’t understand the meaning of “Shalom Aleichem”.
I hope it was invalid matter; because then the Cardinal would not be adding the sin of sacrilege by profanation of the sacred species to the sacrilege already occuring by virtue of the use of a consecrated church for such un-Catholic hootenany, not to mention the grave scandal he gave by his role in this liturgy.
Living proof of the unsuitability of this prelate for higher office in the Church, as some seemed to desire for him..
A group of his fellow cardinals–and yes, his friend Benedict XVI–need to have a serious talk with the Archbishop of Vienna and urge him to mend his liturgical ways, for his own good and the good of all those entrusted to his care.
This is obviously a symptom of a much a deeper crisis. Even the supposedly “conservative” wing of the Church is rotten.
The saddest part of this is that people will continue to defend this travesty and others like it. Catholics have been exposed to this sort of thing for so long, we’ve become numb. We’re utterly alienated from our tradition.
Tim H: Just when you started feeling a little better about being Latin-rite Catholic you can always depend on one of hierarchs you thought was on you side to stab you in the back and have you asking “why again am I not Orthodox?”
You can be “Orthodox” and Catholic. Join the growing ranks (based on some previous comments from this blog) of Roman Rite Catholics who have started to worship in Byzantine Catholic parishes. My anti-spam word was “continuity” and the Byzantines understand this concept perfectly.
“sin of sacrilege by profanation”
Could you elaborate on this? Is it because of the use on non-industrialized version of the bread probably very similar, at least more similar than the industrialized version, Jesus used during Last Supper?
“Stating the obvious: you don’t understand the meaning of “Shalom Aleichem”.”
Oh, I’m sorry! Do you think my Jewish friends don’t understand it either? Please educate us and I know a few rabbis who will be extremely grateful for your sage correction. L’chaim!
Sad indeed
Chris said: I believe what Opey was saying was he hopes it was INvalid so that our Lord wasn’t present to witness this disgusting mess. I as well hope it was invalid.
Valid or not, Our Lord was present, spiritually if not sacramentally, and witnessed this grievous liturgical abuse. But perhaps it would be a greater offense to have an invalid Eucharist on top of the sacrilegious deformation of the liturgy, because it would amount to simulating the most important sacrament and falsely leading people to believe they are receiving the Lord when they’re just munching on some pita bread.
Still, valid Eucharist or not, something needs to be done to make amends for these offenses and to hold accountable those who were responsible.
For each one of those who are scandalized by this I bet you there’s a hundred catholics out there who think that this is great stuff, just what we need. Interestingly enough, this is taking place somewhere not far from the birthplace of St. Jerome who wrote in one of his letters: (yes, THAT saint, the one much maligned these days):
“In my home-town, the stomach is God, life is carefree, and the richer you are, the holier you are. They found themselves an appropriate cover for THAT pot (as the popular saying goes), the priest Lupicinus, that is: a weak captain is in charge of every sinking ship, and the blind leads the blind into a ditch, and: such is the leader as those who are lead.” – Letter 7: Ad Chromatium, Jovinum et Eusebium.
(In mea enim patria rusticitatis vernacula, Deus venter est, et in diem vivitur: et sanctior est ille, qui ditior est. Accessit huic patellae (juxta tritum populi sermone proverbium) dignum operculum, Lupicinus Sacerdos … videlicet ut perforatam navem debilis gubernator regat, et caecus caecos ducat in foveam, talisque sit rector, quales illi qui reguntur.)
They can have some very interesting liturgical features in the Stephansdom, including this one, the congregation singing “Tantum Ergo” to the tune of the old Habsburg imperial hymn “Gott Erhalte Unser Kaiser” (composed by Haydn): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngLx-hHK1nM
“Why is the deacon merely bowing and not kneeling during the consecration? These folks don’t believe in the Real Presence?”
I’ve never seen a deacon kneel, but stand behind and to the side of the celebrant, and bow when the celebrant bows or genuflects.
I think it’s highly likely that His Eminence did not plan this “event”, just as John Paul the Great did not plan his liturgies. Because of their incredible duties and responsibilities, high churchmen need to entrust much to others… sadly, Christian charity sometimes has them trust the wrong people. “Pray and don’t worry.”
I think his use of the pallium makes it all that much more solemn, don’t you?
The pallium is a visible sign of the Cardinal-Archbishop’s unity with the successor of Peter, Pope Benedict XVI. Or something. We’re all about unity in the Catholic Church, you know.
But here is my favorite movie version of efficacious prayer at the moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8SKwEBR-uU
Where is the SSPX and the Orthodox Church when you need them!. Traditional Catholics need there prayers now.
There is no hope for mending fences with the Orthodox churches as long as this near-profanation of the eucharist continues!
>Even the supposedly “conservative” wing of the Church is rotten.
Tell me about it. Just read the above comments from supposedly \”conservative\” Catholics calling Mass invalid or HOPING it was invalid. If the conservatives cannot distinguish between form and substance than how can we expect liberals to do that? I guess the grace comes not from real presence but from proper form. I see some striking similarities between these quasi conservatives and liberals. For both the form is paramount and substance secondary.
PS: Liturgical abuses in my area are the main reason why I now worship in a Ukranian Greek Catholic parish. The local Latin clergy are hostile to Pope Benedict’s reforms. They are waiting him out, hoping for a successor with different idea.
Geoffrey: I’ve never seen a deacon kneel, but stand behind and to the side of the celebrant, and bow when the celebrant bows or genuflects.
When you watch the next papal Mass on EWTN — or for that matter an ordinary EWTN friars’ Mass — you’ll certainly see the deacons (and indeed any priest who’s not concelebrating, like the pope’s MC who is a monsignor) kneel during the consecration. As I see in my own parish whenever (several times a week) we have a deacon assisting.
As we see the deacon and servers kneel when the priest opens the Tabernacle. I gather that the best form of reverence for deacons is the same as for you and me.
Although I must admit that I mentioned this somewhat tongue in cheek, as the most innocuous borderline “abuse” I spotted in this atrocious video.
Michael: And of course no one would argue that someone kneel who can’t. For instance, at almost every TLM one sees someone (who can’t kneel) receive Holy Communion standing while those who can kneel at the communion rail.
>Oh, I’m sorry! Do you think my Jewish friends don’t understand it either? Please educate us and I know a few rabbis who will be extremely grateful for your sage correction. L’chaim!
And be peace with you.
That’s the whole text of the song. There is nothing Trinitarian or not Trinitarina on it. It is the same as “Pax tecum”. Are you saying that “Pax tecum” within Mass is NOT Trinitarian and should be removed?
L’Chaim? Isn’t it too early to start drinking? ;-)
This is not consigned to Austria, we have this in the United States too. It is called the Circus. Really it is God awful and no loophole in the world should allow any member of clergy to perform like this is good conscience and sleep well. Watching it was like sitting in front of a pail of Ammonia………..
Noone should be surprised that the Cardinal is considered a conservative.He is.That does not mean,howver,that he is a stalwart one.He is a confrere and student of Benedict.He was the apple of JPII ‘s eye,a fellow believer.But he is very week and easily intimidated.When he gave a very tepid response to We are the Church,JPII said he was very disppointed with his weak response to the heterodox movenment.The Cardinal apolozide to the Pope then issued a stronger statement. My opinion is that the church is in so much of collapse today,not because of the liberals but of the conservartives who sold out.You can find the same situation with pastors who personally say and believe the correct things but do the opposite bacause they are afraid.
Though I would like to hope that the Cardinal was tricked into this blasphemy, it’s an annual event he has presided over before.
Pray hard people, there is much more work to be done.
Fr Mcafee,
I hope that is not true of the pastors of the Diocese of Arlington!!!
Woody Jones – “…my favorite movie version of efficacious prayer at the moment:”
Interesting movie. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before. Is it based on any particular historic incident?
Interesting example of human behavior towards the end of the scene. It suggests a question suited for a psychological profile or an employment interview.
If one of your shipmates calls out a warning, “Mine ahead on the port side!”, do you:
A. Run to the port side railing to see what will happen?
B. Decide that it’s a good time to see what’s happening over at the starboard railing?
Interesting parallel when applied to the Church today, isn’t it? Do we choose our field of battle, to fight, rather than flee from the path of one doom into the hands of another doom? Do we rush to see what’s coming toward us, no matter how unpleasant it may be, or do we choose a less disturbing vista, where we can pretend we’re in less danger? Do we recognize that we’re all in the same boat?
I thought the 60’s and 70s’ were dead!
I think Cardinal Schonborn would have been better off as a professor or in one of the offices at the Vatican…not as head of an archdiocese.
Are all novos ordo masses like this? It has been so long since I had to go to one?
If they had girls in Cages from the ceiling doing a dance thing it would be just like some of those old “DOORS” videos we used to watch before we grew up.
Come on baby light my fire….
The lizzard King……..
Break On through to the other side…Yea!
Jim Dorchak
I did mean that I hoped it was invalid (consecration) because of the type of bread that it was and all the crumbs and the chance of the Blessed Sacrament being trampled on or left.
The whole whatever it was, is a travesity in itself and although God is present everywhere, we know Christ is present in a special way in the Holy Eucharist. That is why we adore him in the Sacrament and not a tree or such.
Not that it matters much, but I am a she, not a he.
This mass is part of an official monthly mass-events series.
If you want to see more, just look up: http://www.youtube.com/findfightfollow
All this is known in Austria for years and the Cardinal was part of it before.
Btw. the bread is unleavened. They use a special procedure, water with gas… in order to make it look like that.
Please pray.
Mr. Dorchak,
Of course not. In fact, here are some pictures of His Eminence, Count Christoph Cardinal Schonborn OP celebrating Mass in the Novus Ordo in Austria that are nothing like this video:
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/04/more-from-heiligenkreuz.html
I remain deeply perplexed by how the same Cardinal could preside over both liturgies.
Watch this. It’ll help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZL3POaATn8
Good heavens,
Have they learned nothing the last few years ? Really surprised about Cardinal Schonborn? Perhaps the poor man was cornered into the situation. I hope he’ll think twice next time.
Austrian,
That makes me very sad. There was a glimer of hope….
Fr. McAfee (sp?), that is a very interesting assessment, and consistent with a surprising talk I heard the Cardinal deliver in New Orleans four years ago. Speaking to a university audience containing believers of many faiths (and surely some of none), I heard the Cardinal declare that the Church needn’t bother with evangelising the Jews, as they already have a saving covenant. That the discovery of this and the post-conciliar revolution in Jewish – Catholic relations is a “new thing” that God is doing.
It was not what I was expecting.
I regret if recounting this anecdote now smacks of telling tales, esp. as the Cardinal is unlikely to appear on this thread to defend himself. But I know what I heard, and recall my shocked realisation that here was a man with an appetite for human respect dangerous to himself and others.
How very disappointing from the man who has been seen as thoroughly orthodox. As a cardinal and bishop of the Church he should have refused to go along with this liturgy rather than give scandal which is what he surely has done in this case. But I guess he probably had some idea of what to expect.
In another generation from now Catholics will look back in horror at how the successors of the Apostles helped damage the Church to such an extent. I sometimes have very little sympathy (probably too little, if I am honest) for those in the SSPX but when watching the Communion I can see how difficult it will be to reconcile them fully to the Holy See whilst horrendous abuses of the Mass like this are still being practised by prelates.
How long, Lord?
King Jan Sobieski is turning in his grave. He didn’t save Vienna and Austria from Islam for this.
Since many people have posted cheering videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSy9VVBNev8
An example of how the modern and traditional can go well together. Once you past the music the lyrics are not bad. And Amsterdam struck me as the unlikliest of places to take back the streets for the Church.
So this is a cut and paste rendition of the Jewish hymn, melody and all? So let me see ….. the Islamic call to prayer, the Adhan, could be conceivably used at mass as long as the little problematic part about the Prophet Mohammed was excised? It certainly is beautiful. Well, I suppose there is still hope for mad liturgical scientists and their creations. Speaking about “L’chaim!”, why not incorporate that after the morning communion rite! Always ready to contribute ;-)
Actually, though I’ve a generally good opinion of Card. Schoenborn, here he looks about the same age as the aging hippie guitar players one sees up front at youth Masses, strumming the dated 1970s stuff that was mediocre even then, which they insist on forcing on “the youth”, asserting condescendingly it’s what appeals to them, while the youth in the pews, there under protest and wishing they were anywhere else, snicker and say … Look at those old geezers up there, playing crummy stuff we wouldn’t think of putting up with anywhere except at a Catholic church.
I’ve only been a Roman Catholic for 3.5 years. Prior to that, a lifelong Lutheran and pastor. We were brought to the Church by the beauty, truth, and goodness of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. We experienced proper liturgy celebrated by Bishop Peter Elliott for two years while studying at the John Paul II Institute in Melbourne, Australia (also by Archbishop Denis Hart at St. Patrick’s Cathedral). Upon our return to Canada, two years ago, we were discouraged by the lack of reverence in the Mass. Seeing this carnival in Vienna reminds me that things aren’t going to change quickly. I wonder if I should switch rites. We have some lovely Ukrainian Catholic parishes in town. One thing holding me back is the cultural difference. I don’t have a Ukrainian bone in my body.
I keep praying for the restoration of reverence and beauty to the celebration of the Mass.
I would agree with Philip, the Youth Director who posted a while back — the Mass is already “relevant”. There is no need to tart it up with
the gimmicks we see here. Kids have pretty good BS detectors, and resent condescension. I think youth would be drawn more to a Mass
that showed them Christ hung on a gibbet, adored in a rite ineffably beautiful. Lord knows I would.
To Paul S.,
That is the whole problem with scandal and irreverence.
Popular culture says when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Go to the Ukrainians.
I think the Roman Church is worth fighting for.
I have fought my whole life against this stuff. And I will probably go to my grave tired.
Clinton: I think youth would be drawn more to a Mass that showed them Christ hung on a gibbet …
Sorry, the USCCB did not approve this.
… adored in a rite ineffably beautiful.
And apparently a fair number of our bishops had their doubts about this also.
Reminds me of something I saw in York Minster (normally more Catholic than us) the other day, where they advertised a “Multi-sensory eucharistic celebration” including strobe lights, dance, and overlaid with Gregorian chant.
How’s this for multi-sensory:
Smell: Incense…lots of it…and then some more!
Sight: Chausables, copes, mitres…all in opus anglicana
Sound: bells, bells, bells and a cappella chant
Touch: maybe a few relics
Taste: Obviously, the Blessed Sacrament
We don’t need to appeal to the youth. If they’re there then they’ve already made the decision. I know. I’m one of them.
No, of course there’s no “state of necessity”.
(Answering toomey’s question about the implementation of SP in Schönborn’s diocese:)
Regular indult masses in Vienna have started as early as 1988 (under Cardinal Groër).
Today, EF masses are celebrated daily by the FSSP in the Capuchin friars’ church right in the centre of Vienna, including a High Mass on Sunday evening. A Low Mass is celebrated on Sunday morning at another location. On the whole, our TLM community resembles a personal parish, although it is not officially one.
Andrew,
They serve the Blessed Sacrament at York Minster?
I do not believe that facility is served by priest with valid Holy Orders.
When do obedience and liturgy meet?
Obedience and faith meet in adherence to the Church’s creedal expressions.
Obedience and Holiness meet in the Life in Christ enlightened by prayer.
Obedience and the sacraments meet in the conformity of the minister with the supreme liturgist’s directives. This is closely followed by the faithful’s obedience to proper participation in the sacramental economy.
Why the dissonant application of the great VIRTUE of obedience in regards the Sacred Mysteries?
This is a disheartening recurrence of “taking the liturgy to the people” in an attempt to “meet them where they are”. This “meeting them where they are” lends itself far too quickly to “keeping them where there are”.
Very sad indeed.
Ian,
“State of necessity” or “Call to Action”, either way – scandelous behavior.
Of course, here comes the “two wrongs makes me right” argument.
By the way, I am keeping up my daily rosary for the lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX Bishops. I have high hopes that good things come from it.
Looks like too much MTV in the “pastoral approach” to young people. And from a Cardinal?
I guess English is the Church’s universal language now.
I just hope this was some sort of terrible set-up.
Charivari Rob,
The Youtube segment is one of the trailers for the new Russian movie “Admiral”, based on the life of Admiral A. V. Konchak, polar explorer, naval hero and head of one of the main White Russian groups fighting the Bolsheviks in the Russian civil war of 1918-1923. It was released in Russia in October and is bidding to become the best-grossing Russian film of all time. While the movie critics who I can find have widely differing views on the artistic merits, it appears to be very interesting in that it invites the viewer to sympathize with the Whites, not the Reds, and is full of Orthodox religious scenes like the one in the trailer. Another trailer with subtitles shows the White forces kneeling and swearing allegiance to the new (White) government, starting with the formula: “I swear to Almighty God, to His Holy Gospel, and His life-giving Cross…” In a way it is a kind of resurgence of “Holy Russia” thinking.
Unfortunately there is apparently a Zhivago-like adultery component, but perhaps one can ignore that and enjoy the religious and military imagery.
They say it is supposed to come to the US in 2009, from 20th Century Fox.
This is why people take refuge in SSPX.
This is why Anglo-Catholics hesitate to convert.
This is why those with weak faith leave the Church.
This is why Europe is largely post-Christian.
This is why any ecumenical discussions originating with Cardinal S are profoundly dangerous to the faith.
We need a new, strong, clear – do the red, say the black – missel and soon.
Please God, the Cardinal is a theological giant, and must know good liturgy.
If you notice when he goes to the altar for the consecration, he has a look of pain on his face. Would that he be only a coward, like Peter.
Our Lady, Exterminatrix of Heresies, bitte für uns!
OK, how does one tattle on a Cardinal?
Here is a prominent conservative Cardinal, who is the editor of the CCC. As I understand it, the CCC gives faithful catechetical expression to VC2…
So I have to ask, is this Mass an abuse? Or, given that these masses are supported by the editor of the CCC, is it fair to characterize this Youth Mass as one faithful expression of VC2?
Time to admit that Vatican II and the 1992 Catechism really aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. If they can’t keep our religion recognizable, I’d say they’re pretty much worthless.
Watch this. It’ll help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZL3POaATn8
That was truly divine, i feel much better now!!
Thankyou-
Make that Admiral A. V. Kolchak.
I get so bemused, seeing the Tsarist military praying so openly, and then mentally comparing it to the official secularism of our governmental bodies.
The cynics (or just anti-Russians) will say: well it did not keep them from falling prey to the Reds. But viewing the Revolution (and I have seen one Orthodox bishop, as well as Archbishop Lefebvre, each say that the Revolution is one, with different outbreaks from 1789, to 1830, 1848, 1870 and 1917, at least) as basically Satanic (per, e.g., de Maistre), one could perhaps turn the question around and ask why Satan thought he needed to destroy the Russians (after the French), instead of some of the rest of us.
Deus, qui dedisti nobis regale sacerdotium: praesta, quaesumus; ut, sicut beatus Joseph unigenitum Filium tuum, natum ex Maria Virgine, suis manibus reverentur tractarre meruit et portare, ita nos facias cum cordis munditia et operis innocentia tuis sanctis altaribus deservire, ut sacrosantum Filii tui corpus et sanguinem hodie digne sumamus, et in futuro saeculo praemium habere mereamur aeternum. per eundem Chrsitum Dominum nostrum. AMEN!
Folks, it can get a lot worse than this. A lot worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ6KWt49wIA
To those who seem to be considering SSPX as an alternative because of this, do you really think that becoming a schismatic will help things? The Church is not perfect, but going against the authority of the Pope is not going to help anything either.
And I think it’s in very poor taste to judge every Novus Ordo Mass by this one. The Novus Ordo can be and is frequently celebrated with reverence. I know that I never would have become Catholic if all I had ever been to were Tridentine Masses. (It’s been about 13 months since my baptism.) I’ve been to six or seven of them in the last 11 months, and they’re still something I’m getting used to. Just because the Novus Ordo is sometimes done badly doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valuable and beautiful liturgy.
It is not confusion, it is strategy. The Cardinal hopes to become John Paul III who will return to the abuses before Benedict XVI. The most important thing is to be popular..
The bread and wine remained what they were before, i.e the bread and wine. So, there is no sacrilege, only an attempted one.
I do think that all his bricks are in their place.
Save us, Lord, we perish.
Matt of South Kent: They serve the Blessed Sacrament at York Minster? I do not believe that facility is served by priest with valid Holy Orders.
re: comments at 4.40pm and 5.07pm
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I meant to point out that a true Catholic Mass is just as modern and “multi-sensory” as anything put together by liturgical modernists trying to appeal to youth.
Having acknowledged that York Minster is not served by validly ordained ministers at the moment (was in the past, will be in the future) I would certainly trade their vestments and ornaments for those in the local Catholic sacristies.
And we wonder why the SSPX hesitates to come into fuller communion with the current hierarchy of the Church?
>So this is a cut and paste rendition of the Jewish hymn, melody and all? So let me see ..
Oh, now I get it. Out with all Jewish! Is that all you got? Even if it is Jewish it says nothing about being (not) Trinitarian. Or do you actually believe that the Jewish God and Catholic God and separate beings? I guess you would now allow any Old Testament readings during Mass. You know, it is all Jewish, what a horror!
Do I think it is an appropriate song to start mass with? Perhaps not. But, please, let’s keep this real. Are you serious in equaling Jewish and Muslim faiths? Please, think about this for a moment.
Anybody still wondering why people join the SSPX?!
I think we should just keep the good Cardinal in our prayers (as well as the rest of the Church, including those on this post who are so imflammatory). The Church is in God’s hands ultimately, and there is no need for such disparaging remarks on the Cardinal, especially when so much is unknown.
I’m utterly disappointed with those who would dare suggest that the celebration of the Eucharist is invalid. We have a validly ordained priest as well as valid matter (leavened or unleavened bread, the latter being required for licitness in the Latin Church). They remind me of those schismatics who accuse that the Missal of Pope Paul VI is invalid because they are better judges than the true Magisterium of the Church.
I can’t imagine which is the greater sacrilege: to unworthily celebrate the august mystery of the Eucharist, or to deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist by insisting that the Mass was invalid?
Oromin wrote, “And I think it’s in very poor taste to judge every Novus Ordo Mass by this one. The Novus Ordo can be and is frequently celebrated with reverence.”
Yours is an argument that is frequently offered when such silly Masses are cited by those critical of the Post-VC2 Church. I have tended to believe that argument as well, but this situation has me wondering.
The problem I have with your argument is that here, a prominent, conservative Archbishop, close to the Pope, is openly proclaiming by his joyful participation that this balloon-Mass is not an abuse, but is a faithful, youthful, “celebration” of the Mass.
Given that he is the editor of the CCC, which gives expression to post-VC2 theology, would it not be fair to say that he represents official, orthodox VC2 theology? If so, given lex orandi, lex credendi, I wonder whether it would also be fair to say that this Mass provides a faithful expression of VC2?
We often see conservative parishes that offer a more traditional Mass, a Life Teen, a Folk Mass, and another variation or two. The message seems to be that the Church is a big tent and each person should attend the Mass that speaks to them and that each form of Mass is fine. As long as it is valid, and people find spiritual nourishment there, no one should judge another person’s expression of the Mass. Your own comment, “I know that I never would have become Catholic if all I had ever been to were Tridentine Masses,” seems consistent with this line of thinking. From that perspective, if the youth there find it meaningful, who are we to criticize this balloon-Mass?
I do not want to get into a SSPX-schism rabbit hole here. I do wonder, however, whether Bishop Williamson may have a valid point when he argues that, the official post-VC2 Church, while maintaining valid sacraments and orthodox theology, has also allowed the world to slip in through the cracks.
When faith is tested.
This of course is a time of monumental transition for our world.
We have already witnessed the collapse of Western Civilization. Now, the banks are falling, we see the collapse of the real economy, war is on the horizon etc etc.
Now we are witnessing the collapse of the most hedonistic and empty culture ever.
Not only the USA will be hit by this crisis, but Europe as well.
What is going to happen, will be beyond belief.
Do not lose your faith. God is testing us.
“Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Since the Second Vatican Council, bad theologians didn’t talk about hell.
Remember: “God is love”, but “God is also righteous”.
The price some are going to pay, will be beyond belief. I only wish they would open their eyes and see.
The Church is the New Israel and all that is Jewish that affirms that fact (the Sacred Scripture for example) of course is appropriate. If you are an Ecumenist then you believe “we all pray to the same God” even if your particular “God” denies the crucifixion or divinity of Jesus Christ in His revelations to His Prophet, as in Islam. If you are an Ecumenist you believe that Judaism somehow is a parallel means of salvation that makes a detour around Jesus Christ — ignoring the statement of Christ that no one can go to the Father except through Him. One wonders why the martyrs bothered being tortured and killed when “we all pray to the same God.” The God of Judaism is most definitely not the Holy Trinity and their contemporary hymns, prayers and songs honestly reflect that fact. They are not ambiguous. Our hymns, prayers and songs should unambiguously reflect our beliefs. Please, think about this for a moment.
The world is sick
Everything starts with the family. People are mentally sick because they were treated badly as children. Raise the standard of parenting, and the world will be well.
The world is sick because of the family, and the family is sick because fantasies have taken the place of philosophy. To save the world, we need better parenting – and to save parents, we need true philosophy.
STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW.
WE WANT OUR CHURCH BACK.
Padre Steve wrote:
“The Cardinal’s card to God reads: “Get me out of here!””
ROFL!
Truer words were probably never spoken… Prayers for the good Cardinal. I would have to guess that this was probably “sprung” on him.
In ICXC,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
I am really surprised that some are expressing surprise. I am really at the end of my rope with the Catholic Church situation. I believe the SSPX or FSSP are our only hope, or the Orthodox.
Back when the scandal over the diocesan Museum in Vienna broke out (over the blasphemous paintings, like one where the Last Supper was depicted as a homosexual orgy) I asked a friend from Austria what he thought. He is from a prominent family there btw. His impression was that His Emminence was himself orthodox and fine, but a push over. That is, refused to exercise his authority. Don´t know if that is true or not.
Writing as a (technical) Jew re. Nick’s/Gabrielus’ discussion;
I don’t think anyone would be advocating total abandonment of pre-Christian Judaism in Christianity esp. the Tanakh/Old Testament. This would be Marcionism – as would drawing a distinction by suggesting that the Divinity of the Jews is other (and less than) than the Divinity (understood as the Father) in Christianity.
Jews worship the same Divinity (Father), however, they do not recognise the Trinity (Jesus/Holy Ghost), so in this regard they do not share the same understanding of the Divinity as Christians. Judaism (there are many different types/interpretations) is clear on this and is closer to Islam in this aspect than Christianity (though I would like to note that I do believe that Islam is a type of Judaeo-Christian heresy IMO).
I would like to think that the Covenant (which is eternal cf. Shemot (Exodus)) has created a relationship with the Divinity which may permit salvation – however, I understand that Christians, particularly Catholics do believe differently, in that Jesus is the vehicle for salvation through faith in him. Vatican 2 seems to suggest differently, but only for those who are completely ignorant of Christianity – which is highly improbable for Orthodox Judaism because Jesus is (most likely) referred to in the Talmud – and besides, Christianity has such exposure that it is relatively unviable to suggest that the vast majority of Jews have not heard of it besides.
Without going too deeply into antinomianism etc a total abandonment of Jewish precepts has not occured in Christianity (eg. 10 Commandments are still recognised) however mandatory ritual aspects of Judaism are not required nor are encouraged. This seems to come from Paul and was solidified after the 2nd Temple was destroyed and the Church became a primarily Gentile institution.
As to ecumenism – Nick portrays one extremely liberal understanding of ecumenism i.e. relativity of the Divinity amongst faiths. This would be an incorrect understanding of true ecumenism which should be a vehicle for respectful dialogue with the intention of correctly informing unbelievers of the truth of your position (i.e. proselytisation of a type, by another name).
I guess, writing from a Jewish perspective, that I have considered that the Judaism of today is, similar to Christianity, a descendant from the same root Judaism (2nd Temple). It is not the legitimate successor to that Judaism and indeed has no claim to be so more than Christianity does. Many Jews try to claim that it is the successor, but it is not.
I personally would not advocate retaining ritual Orthodox Judaic practices upon conversion to Christianity (in this regard the “Jews for Jesus” people are wrong) because they would not appear to be necessary within the Christian faith and I would not call on Catholics to alter their practices to avoid hurting feelings etc.
Whatever the case, this Mass was both crass and intellectually offensive.
Son of Trypho,
Thank you. Excellently put. As I recall St. John of Damascus lists Islam as the last Christian heresy (he was a contemporary of Mohammed)and Judaism as one of the earliest in his “On Heresies.” Ecumenism as “a vehicle for respectful dialogue with the intention of correctly informing unbelievers of the truth of your position (i.e. proselytisation of a type, by another name)” is obviously politely permissible except, one must ask, how many decades does it take to present one’s positions? A class in comparative religion would certainly do it much faster. Again, thank you for your insight.
To Paul S:
I don’t have a Ukranian bone in my body either. But I worship at a Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish in Northern California. The Divine Liturgy is almost entirely in English. The music is beautiful. The sermons are inspiring. I am connected to the Faith of the Holy Apostles. I have come to appreciate the richness of the Orthodox spiritual tradition.
I am not willing to spend the rest of my life grinding my teeth during irreverent NO masses — all that is offered in my area. I am tired of priests who preach heresy. I have the highest admiration for Pope Benedict, but see none of his reforms trickling down to the Left Coast of California. Frankly, I think there is little hope for survival of the Catholic church in this part of the planet EXCEPT in churches which follow the Byzantine tradition. It grieves me to see our beloved church in the process of disintegration. I am convinced that the persecution is on the way, and that only a remnant will remain loyal to the faith and to our Lord, Jesus Christ. That is my humble opinion.
Dear Andrew:
I was amused by your statement, “…York Minster is not served by validly ordained ministers at the moment (was in the past, will be in the future)I would certainly take their vestments…” While I wouldn’t care to argue with your first assertion since ONLY the Holy Spirit knows and determines what is “valid” and what is “invalid,” it is a certainty that the Medieval English cathedrals are now and always will be Anglican, even it they, at some point, serve congregations of less than a dozen. Anglicans take their property very seriously, as witness what is going on in the Episcopal Church in the U.S. and breakaway parishes and even dioceses. If anyone seriously thinks that one day a papal appointee will assume his throne in Canterbury Cathedral, he is hopelessly immersed in some sort of dream-world. Of course, wishful thinking (like hope)springs eternal. In Xto per pedes Apostolorum, James E. Townsend, Lutheran minister retired
This is surely the work of demons. We should pray more than we complain. Or just skip the complaining and pray. We don’t know everything that is behind this. Pray for Cardinals, and the Pope. They are under great pressure from demons. The gates of hell shall not prevail…. Remember the promises
UNBELIEVABLE…
I’ve heard a horrendous “Pater Noster” sung at Masses before, but none quite as awful as the one in this video. Kyrie eleison.
Joshua a friend of mine who lives in Germany would confirm what you said of the cardinal. My friend says that he is personally orthodox but pastorally weak. When he gave an award to the pro-abortion politician I emailed him of my concern but never received a reply. I think that that mess/Mass should be reported to Rome. So many children are being led astray by those who should be our shepherds.
Complaining about Jewish prayers as such is ridiculous – it implies that we should not use the Psalms. And equating them with Muslim prayers is wrong – Islam is a false religion, whereas Jewish religion up to the time of the Lord is the first part of Christianity. Obviously Jewish religious practices that explicitly reject Christ ought not to be used, but there is no evidence for thinking that the cited prayer is one of these; if it is ancient enough, Christ himself would probably have used it. It is however quite true that the prayer does not belong in the mass – for the simple reason that it is not part of the Roman liturgy (which does not include the novus ordo).
Is there any particular reason the Catholic youth are seen as being stupid and needing a “dumbed-down” Mass?
It’s offensive.
Quote: “STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW. WE WANT OUR CHURCH BACK.”
Amen to that!!!!!
Our Traditional Catholic Church!!. Like it was for hundreds of years! The Church of the Saints!. Not todays modern day Catholic Church, with balloons, altar girls, extra ordinary eucharistic ministers, and holding hands.
John L
I think “shalom aleichem” was composed in the early 20th C. The tradition that it derives from is older, but certainly not back to the apostolic age.
Writing as a (technical) Jew, I find it particularly odd that it was being used in the service at all. There are surely a whole lot of Catholic hymns which would be more appropriate for the setting? – incidentally, the rock music sounds like some sort of Christian rock pentacostal stuff which is cringe-inducing and particularly unedifying.
As was said by one better than I:
Behold the abomination of desolation!
*I do have the upcoming pleasure to see some traditional ordinations by the FSSP this weekend which will be a very interesting experience – I’m curious to see the contrast.
Is that Naan or a tortilla he’s using as the host?
Dear Doc Angelicus,
Who are you? I must have been at ITI when you were. (You don’t have to answer that in public; drop me a line instead at pak@wyomingcatholiccollege.com.)
Anyone who is trying to defend the Cardinal in this situation is naive. He knows better, he can do better, but he is afraid to confront the anti-culture in the Church. I hope that for every criticism we make of his liturgy, we will say a Hail Mary for his liturgical conversion. I once heard him say in a small group setting, with a distinct look of pain and regret in his eye: “Ah, how beautiful the old liturgy was, how rich… But we are in a different world now, and the Eucharist is still the same Eucharist.” Pope Benedict is finally offering us a way out of this weird aberration in the history of the Church, and yet so many bishops and Cardinals are still unable (or rather, unwilling) to follow him.
GenXRevert,
Don’t forget the Eastern Catholic Churches (Orthodox churches in Communion with the Apostolic See).
And don’t jump to conclusions about the future of the Catholic Church. Historically we have weathered far worse situations.
It’s just that no balloons were involved…
God bless,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
>The God of Judaism is most definitely not the Holy Trinity
Wow. I don’t know what to say. The word is: heresy.
You really need to stop here and pray, study, discuss this with a good priest. The God of Judaism is the Holy Trinity and is the Catholic God and is the One and Only God, unchangeable. I guess what you were trying to say was that Jews do recognize Holy Trinity, that does not change the nature of God, right?
Oromin:
The question is, who is the real schismatic?
I’ll quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Eucharist:
1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: “Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.”
Now, if this celebration is the sum and summary of Cardinal Schönborn’s faith, then I have to come to the conclusion that I do not have the same faith as Cardinal Schönborn does. But I obviously have the same faith that Bischop Felly has. I become an SSPXer (or a “schismatic” if you want) without even attending SSPX masses, just because of the faith I try to uphold.
I wanted to break my monitor by seeing this…fortunately my head came back to me before I wrote this.
This attempt to “relaventize the Mass” is a complete backwards understanding of Catholic Theology, but that’s not what I’m going to discuss.
This Mass was shameful (I have harsher words, but I’m censoring myself for the good of my soul)…
Tradition is our way out of this mess, hopefully people will follow.
Dear James E. Townsend,
Well, we could pray that the \”spirit of Mary Tudor\” infuses some future British government, and we can, once again, light the ol\’ bonfires!
Cold weather is the Lord\’s way of telling us to burn some Anglicans.
Perhaps someone can light a fire under this Cardinal, too.
This is just tradical.
Nowadays, I attend the old Tridentine mass in the kingdom of Norway (less than 2% catholics)
B., You wrote:
“Now, if this celebration is the sum and summary of Cardinal Schönborn’s faith, then I have to come to the conclusion that I do not have the same faith as Cardinal Schönborn does. But I obviously have the same faith that Bischop Felly has. I become an SSPXer (or a “schismatic” if you want) without even attending SSPX masses, just because of the faith I try to uphold.”
To be fair, I’m sure that this service could not have been organized by Cardinal Schönborn, and, having read several of his books, I’m sure it does not reflect his theological views or his faith…or even his preferences as it pertains to liturgical matters! If, as some seem to say, it is a matter of lacking the courage to “speak out” (a virtue Bishop Fellay seems to possess in spades) then the difference is one of virtue, not faith. I’m not saying that Bishop Fellay is more virtuous than the good Cardinal, but perhaps one could inject a bit of the Cardinal’s irenicism into Fellay and Fellay’s boldness into the Cardinal so that we could actually get somewhere on all sides.
There is a point where accommodation for the sake of the Gospel becomes compromise with the “spirit of the age” (or at least the 1970’s) and even sacrilege. I think the organizers of this event certainly crossed that line, and I believe the good Cardinal should have put a stop to it, especially if this event is one that is on-going.
In ICXC,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
I would hope that someone would get the story behind this. Perhaps that would be a prudent way to present these things. Isn’t this blog-gossiping? Just like saying “I saw Ben with another woman” with no explanation? Who were the people that planned this Mass and did the Cardinal know this was going to happen? Facts need to accompany these videos, otherwise it just leads to all of this online criticism about something we know nothing about. Assuredly, the Mass was awful. But criticisms of the Cardinal’s involvement aren’t ours to make. It’s easy to sit back and say what the Cardinal should or should not have done. But I’m not too sure all of this discussion is ours to have or even charitable.
Wow! Balloons. But shouldnt they be all green right now? We dont want to go against the ordo for liturgicul decor!!
You know, we used to have a pastor who would say “as long as they are in church, I am happy”, AH but what to do when you get them there. Its more then just having a person there physically. we laity are craving to be engaged in the mass in the right way. We hav unfortunately for the most part been prevented from that for years, with shadows of the holy mass like this.
Now I am sure they all felt good, and were all happy. Go have a praise concert for that. Dont bring it into the sanctity of the mass. You dont need to do this to engage the youth, you just need to give them something honest.
FATHER DEACON DANIEL
Quite honestly, your benevolent assessment would be appropriate only if he were an unaccountable individual. But the latter can’t be ruled out: so, you might be right.
This is just a shameful and disgusting act, and to think that is a cardinal of the Church! Well, the days of this profanity are numbered anyway. Let these poor, misguided souls have their last stab at debility – in the end it will all be for naught as this “modern” church is quickly melting down no matter how many flash lights and “cool” music they add to their “liturgy”
Another sad thing is the beginning: the Kardinal is greeted by his “groupies” as if he was some pop star, with hysterical screaming. That even made it look more like some MTV-clip instead of a Catholic Mass. We really must be the laughing stock of the other christian denominations. In a real Catholic H. Mass the priest enters in solemn procession and the Introitus is set in whilst everybody turns the heart and mind towards God. Here the mass became reduced to some teenage music festival.
And this is happening in EUROPE, the home grounds of the Church. I’m sometimes forced to think that America has got better priests and seminarians than we do.
SANCTA MARIA, MATER DEI, ORA PRO NOBIS!
This is very bad and sad. A true disappointment.
This is very very damaging for the Church and its hierarchy.
Four years of work down the drain.
Hope and trust obliterated.
I think that the Cardinal owes us an explanation.
Why should anyone be surprised by this? It corresponds very well with the prohibition of the Mass that was never abrogated.
The Mass, as a Sacrifice, could never exclude a view from the foot of the cross. How could a view from the foot of the cross be reconciled with what we have seen here?
A cardinal virtue is one of the four principal virtues of human morality, to which the others are necessarily related.
It seems evident that what we have now seen in Vienna is less than a “Cardinal” virtue.
Robert A. Harder
The participation of someone with Cardinal Schonbrun’s reptutation in this sort of mockery serves to substantiate a suspicion that has been in my mind for a long time. I do not mean to be provocative. I am sincerely confused and hope that there is some sort of reasonable refutation of my suspicions. But for a very long time it has seemed to me that the rulers of the church were playing some sort of double game. The orthodox are placated at the level of formal teaching, while in the domain of practice, little or nothing is done to rein in the heterodox and untraditional. It seems schizophrenic to me and I don’t how the rulers of the church live like this without their heads exploding, but the fact that the same pope who wrote Veritatis Splendor made Roger Mahoney a cardinal is a case in point. How seriously can the rulers of the church take their own solemn teaching when they either wink at or even participate in forms of liturgy that make a mock of that teaching? It all seems to elevate the need to preserve formal ecclesiastical unity above the preservation of the faith. I have to confess that I find the modern Roman church utterly mysterious, and when you raise these sorts of questions with an orthodox Catholic, your get either denial or anger in response. I wish I could get inside the head of one of the modern popes. Perhaps then it would make more sense. Is the pope really Catholic, or is he just an ecclesiastical politician, not that much unlike the current archbishop of Canterbury, whose principle concern is with keeping the business running smoothly, and with as few defections from either end of the ecclesiastical spectrum as possible?
As a relatively new Catholic (Easter 2005) I am continually appalled by these stunts. Having abandoned Protestantism for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was complete and utter profaning of anything sacred through an admixture of pop culture I continue to be disgusted with junk like this. Where is the outrage from the Vatican? Why is this man not censured? This is but one of many “Messes” performed around the world every day that reduces what should be the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven to a sort of Vaudevillian “Massapalooza”. God forbid I had seen these things before deciding to come into the Church – I would have ran in the other direction!
If we don’t return to some facsimile of Tradition in our liturgy then the Church might as well close its doors and go home. Vatican II has been a dismal failure and anyone who says otherwise has simply drank the Kool-Aid or is in denial. The modern RCC is a JOKE and it’s men like Cardinal Schoenborn who are writing the punchlines.
GOD SAVE HIS CHURCH FROM THE HANDS OF THESE MODERNISTS!
ST. PIUS X, PRAY FOR US!
I don’t think one could reasonably say that Cardinal Schonborn enjoyed this Mass one bit. I think he was probably trying to celebrate a Mass for young people, and the organizers lower-down the food chain (probably the priest concelebrant next to Schonborn and who is wearing the “Madonna” wrap-around microphone) arranged all the theatrics. Being an American priest currently on assignment in Switzerland, I can attest to you that a fair amount of Western European (and especially Germanic) Catholicism is beset by the foolishness and mumbo-jumbo shown at this Mass. But I wouldn’t think for a minute that Schonborn likes this and would approve of this on his own. His tastes are clearly classical. Look at how he does the fraction rite: priests who voluntarily go for weird liturgical practices tear up those mushy wafers rapidly and with no care for the crumbs; Schonborn is going slow on purpose because he has reverence for the Eucharist. As for the purported smile on his face at the beginning, that’s when he’s being greeted before the Mass has even begun. I imagine Schonborn was trying to show some happiness to the youth–which is a valid thing to do even if the Mass did become crazy. Furthermore look at the tension that his face is evidencing in the rest of the video. No, he’s not happy. But he’s trying to reach the young people despite the fact that he’s working in a Church environment that has wrenched itself so far left. I’m not trying to say that this was a good Mass in any way, or that Schonborn shouldn’t take action against it. But I wouldn’t use this one video to blast Schonborn as an out-and-out crazy.
Father,
Thank you for your perspective and observations. Yes – he does in fact appear very pained while celebrating. And I think you are correct – it was a difficult position to be put in. How do you shepherd such a liturgy without making the youth believe that you are angry with them? They are not the one’s responsible for this nonsense.
That said, I also think that the “theatrical view” of liturgy (which is by no means an issue exclusive to progressives) artificially creates a “the show must go on” mindset among celebrants. The fact remains, that a bishop or priest has every right – and in fact has a duty – to shepherd the faithful in the assembly and how they participate in the Mass. If that means stopping the worship to quietly go to the side and ask the “choir/rock band” to drop the drums and tone it down, then you do it. The Kansas light show could also have been unplugged, and the balloons perhaps released after liturgy…into the sky outside. Obviously addressing this prior to the liturgy is better, but I would have no hesitation even to send out the deacons to put the assembly in order.
I say this as one who was a keyboardist and vocalist at similar Lifeteen and other Youth-oriented Masses many years ago (sans the balloons). I know what my intention was at the time. I really believed that I was glorifying God by reaching out to youth and getting them interested in the Mass. God in His mercy was able to bring some good out of it, but now, years later, I see the error of my own ways…especially when you watch events like this on video!
God bless,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
If this is the future of the Church, what is the point of being Catholic? [Calm down. Breathe deeply.]
Who wants to become a priest or a nun and live a pious and humble life, when these things are examples of “modern” Catholicism?
The straw that broke the camel’s back, cannot be far away!
The response from the Archbishop’s spokesman is beyond the pale.
“The liturgy was just fine! How dare you make accusations against the Archbishop? Seek forgiveness!”
Stunning. There’s no other word for it. If the Archbishop had trampled on the Eucharist, I suspect they’d have found some excuse for it in the rubrics. When will this insanity end?? When will people look beyond the letter of the law to the spirit of the liturgy, and recognize that the mystery is utterly obscured, reverence totally absent? [It mean we have a lot of work to do.]
You can e-mail your questions to the Cardinal Schönborn here:
http://stephanscom.at/edw/mail_kardinal
I hope those were the spokesman’s words, not the Cardinal’s. I pray that the good Cardinal himself address this by mouth or letter and hopefully defuse the grave scandal it has caused.
pictures at the official site of this event:
http://www.findfightfollow.at/php/bilder_fff7.php
There is also a guestbook ;-)
It is outrageous to mention the blood of the Christians of Mosul in connection with this travesty. I could accept HE was duped into this, but the statement excusing it obviously places HE foursquare behind it.
The statement is more outrageous than the liturgy.
Shame on the Cardinal’s spokesman, shame!
WOW! Evidence that the office of Cardinal Schönborn reads WDTPRS! Perhaps “brick by brick” could be accomplished by getting other bishops to add WDTPRS to their favourites. [No. This is evidence only that the spokesman has seen this entry.]
And, while the whole issue is still far from clear, it’s refreshing to hear a prelate’s office call on people to “repent and ask God for his forgiveness.”
I am seriously considering becoming a Byzantine Catholic. I don’t think I can cope anymore with the liturgical hullabaloo in the Roman Church. [Such drama. No one is threatening you with one of these Masses. Calm down.]
-KJS
Kevin Symonds,
How would flight to the Byzantines improve things?
Flambeaux,
It would make us all a bit less likely to commit suicide. Remaining in the Roman Rite has become a near occasion of sin for many.
Oh piffle, Paul. If it’s that bad, embrace Orthodoxy because if Rome has defected than either the whole thing is nonsense or the Orthodox have been right since the 800s.
I realize how bad it can get. I lived in some really nutty parishes and some really wacko diocese. I seriously considered going Orthodox, it got so bad. But I didn’t. I closed my eyes, prayed my Rosary through sickening parodies of the Holy Sacrifice approved by the local Ordinary. I uttered my responses in Latin, rather than embrace the banal 1970s-era ICEL mistranslations. I refused to subject my children to the parish-sponsored malformation classes and then argued for their canonical rights as needed.
Either we believe all that the Holy Catholic Church teaches to be divinely revealed, or we don’t. A scandalous Mass celebrated by a notable Cardinal shouldn’t be enough to push you over the edge. But if it is enough, then your options are (logically) either Orthodoxy, if you believe that Christianity is true but that Rome has fallen or atheism, if you conclude that it is all bunk.
If you go atheist, may I suggest hedonism?
So running to the Byzantines doesn’t do you any good if this sort of thing causes you to fear that Rome has fallen.
As I said in my comments yesterday (see above Nov 18, 10:23am), every seeming abuse in this Mass will be defended by its supporters and everything will be found justified by the countless loopholes in the liturgical documents. What has not been strictly forbidden has been embraced and accepted for the sake of attracting the youth. Indeed, as I said, it comes down to the bread used, which, based on the official response of the Cardinal’s representative, was both valid and licit matter.
There cannot be found a loophole for the use of the kinds of sacred vessels we see in the video, despite the words of the communiqué that all is according to the norms. I quote Redemptionis Sacramentum no. 117:
“Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily.”
One could argue that the vestments are not of a proper liturgical color. A defender, however, would cite the example of Pope Benedict’s use of the same vestments.
There’s nothing more we can say. Let’s not complain any longer. Orthodoxy and orthopraxis always flourishes from the bottom up.
“In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.”
Really… I’m going to go out on a limb and disagree with that.
The mass is a sacrifice, not a form of secular sensory entertainment. The youth need to conform themselves to the mass, not vice versa.
I just don’t get the need to replicate the bread from the time. It’s a holy sacrifice taught to us by God himself, not a historical re-enactment. Odd.
I am afraid the spokesperson for the diocese of Vienna is only digging the hole deeper for poor Cardinal Schonborn – it is clear beyond reasonable doubt that the liturgical norms were observed in the breach rather than in the observance to which a Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church is duty bound.
The press statement regardng the type of bread used is really streaching it. Of course we know there are Christians in Mosul and we also know that most of them are Caldean Rite Christians whose particular traditions are not commonly used in the Latin Rite – indeed, are not used at all in the Latin Rite. It is certainly a source of no little comfort that the press spokesman of the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna seems to be unaware of this basic distinction and that the practices of the Caldean Rite are NOT authorised for use in the Latin Rite. The Vienese Curia might want to think about hiering a more competent spokesman!
Father Z: This is evidence only that the spokesman has seen this entry.
Personally, I’d prefer to think that Msgr. Gänswein — who is alleged to be quite internet savvy — saw this WDTPRS item, viewed the posted video himself with great interest if not fascination, and then briefed his boss (perhaps carrying his laptop into the inner sanctum itself), who instructed him to inquire of the chancery in Vienna as to just how this thing might have happened, with the result being the informative statement you received, explaining (in essence) that the strictures of Redemptionis sacramentum had, of course, been adhered to scrupulously, despite this devotion to authentic liturgy having unfortunately not been perceived adequately by some of the video’s less discriminating viewers.
We should give Cardinal Schönborn that which his spokesman asks of us, namely, our acceptance that no “liturgical specifications have been violated” during this service.
In my mind, there is still the issue of prudence. We live in a world that is no longer divided by distance or time. What happens in a small Austrian village near the Slovakian border on Monday, may become the subject of discussion around the globe in a few short hours. Assuming that the Cardinal didn’t know what he was walking into, does he have the power to stop the proceedings once he determines that what is taking place can be perceived as undignified?
It’s worth noting that the Cardinal could not have been surprised by what he found since he’s celebrated the Liturgy in almost identical circumstances for this same group BEFORE!
http://www.kreuz.net/article.2017.html
How horrible. Do you think anyone in the congregation had even the faintest inkling conveyed to them of the reality of the mystery taking place–the sacrifice of Christ? Looks more like it is an unfolding of a preschool television program.
Honestly, where do these liturgists dream up the idea that such liturgies are even slightly appealing to their stated target audience?
Paul, you said:
Well spoken Paul. My sentiments exactly. It really does speak of the modern issues where certain churchmen can have reasonable doctrine (this guy helped write the catechism), but suspect liturgical understanding and practice – which I suppose will end up affecting their faith, and their actions anyway (lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi).
Fr Z you are right to say that there is a lot of work to do. The fact that such a “good man”, did nothing about this liturgy is concerning. From what I have seen and read about Vienna (from other blogs about liturgical abuses), these types of youth-Masses have been going on for some time, and there is some evidence that the Cardinal has encouraged them in their experiments (I’m sorry I don’t have the interlink link to back that up).
Even if the Cardinal turned up, and didn’t know that was going to happen, and didn’t have much say, and found himself in a thing that was delicate and difficult to change, surely he would speak to them later about if he truly thought it was bad, wouldn’t he? Surely he would shut it down, and give some catechesis explaining why he had asked for it to cease? And surely his secretary would say something to that affect in his communiqué? Rather, than accuse people of sinning against the Cardinal?
The secretary’s response suggests that they don’t really think it was that bad, and it shows that they don’t understand Catholic liturgy and what is needed for young people in these times. They don’t understand lex orandi, lex credendi, and they don’t have a proper sense of art and beauty in the Liturgy, ie, they don’t understand how important the form is from a philosophical point of view, and how, in liturgy, the form gives us access to the finality.
“Such drama. No one is threatening you with one of these Masses. Calm down.”
Oh yeah?
Well, last night I was accosted in a dark alley, and the masked assailant demanded my money, or he would force me to watch the Call to Action puppet head Mass…..what could I do? I had to give him my wallet, and my cash that was earmarked for my ACORN donation. ;)
Semper Fi!
*Honestly, where do these liturgists dream up the idea that such liturgies are even slightly appealing to their stated target audience?*
Look at the video. Look at the pictures on the link above.
You can clearly see that the young people present are enjoying what’s going on a great deal.
Now that you people have finally been forced to give up on your assertion that young people will flock to the Tridentine Mass, you seem to be hitting mainstream youth culture with a great deal of malice.
Jealousy, perhaps?
These are the beginning of the death rattles of the modernists. Do you think that they would give up power and control so easily and go “gently into that good night?” No… they have been forcing their garbage on the Church for 40 years and are not about to just give up. They are fighting back because they (rightly so) feel threatened. I would suspect that it will get worse before it gets better .. and it will get better. Pray for our priests and bishops that they will have the courage to resist the onslaught of Satan’s attacks.
*These are the beginning of the death rattles of the modernists*
Yeah, right!
in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.
Already discredited, the pottery ciboria being only the most obvious example.
The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century…The “flat cake” is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days
We are being asked to believe that the Archdiocese of Vienna is so bereft of liturgical tradition that it must import alien and exotic novelties to get the job done. Rubbish — patronising and insulting, to the readers of this lame excuse, to the people of Vienna, and not least, the people of Mosul. One wonders: what is the ancient practice of the Archeparchy of Mosul WRT the liturgical use of show-biz microphones, strobes, lasers, rock bands, and balloons?
Dear Mr.(?) Leitenberger, open your eyes! Liturgy isn’t tourism, and to be authentic needs more than a 21st-century attempt at old-fashioned bread. Liturgy isn’t entertainment, and its ability to elicit an emotional response is utterly irrelevant to its purpose. Liturgy isn’t self-expression of the individual; it is the prayer of the Church (with Christ at the head). Liturgy isn’t sentimental; its authenticity is not found in the private feelings of the atomised individual but rather in a reasoning faith received from God and his Church.
Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!
Indeed.
Now that you people have finally been forced to give up on your assertion that young people will flock to the Tridentine Mass, you seem to be hitting mainstream youth culture with a great deal of malice.
What on earth is there to be jealous about? If I were the same age as these poor kids, this is exactly the sort of thing that would make me leave the church – along with the shenanigans that occur at World “Yoof” Day.
This is the height of patronising. These self-styled “liturgists” think that young people are so retarded that they actually need this nonsense. Pathetic…
Some of y’all are mentioning the possibility that this was an illicit Mass. But if I recall the provisions of Sacrosanctum Concilium correctly, the local ordinary can authorize changes to the liturgy subject only to after-the-fact disapproval from Rome. I suppose it goes without saying that if the Cardinal Archbishop is celebrating what would ordinarily be an illicit Mass, his act of doing so implies that he is stating that he’s making an exception as the local ordinary. The question is: when is someone in Rome going to acknowledge that they are aware of hijinx like this.
Oh, and a big thank-you to the Cardinal for assisting the SSPX in their end of the year recruitment drive. That video alone should convince about three thousand people that there is indeed a huge crisis in the Church and that the SSPX is right to be declaring “ecclesiastical martial law” and bend the rules until sanity returns.
“Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness.”
Why is it that those in authority love to push the “Catholic Guilt Button” on the more traditional Catholics? I suppose it’s because they are the only ones who would have any kind of “Catholic Guilt” to push a button on…. Better said though, they would be the ones who would have a keener “sensus fidei” that is not typically indifferent but passionately reacts to these matters in the first place.
Ron Webber said: You can clearly see that the young people present are enjoying what’s going on a great deal.
A few of them seem to be. But even if all of them were being entertained, it’s still not a terribly large group of young people, and most importantly, the Mass is supposed to be reverent worship, not entertaining fun. On the one hand you can be happy that they’re at a Mass — but that joy is lessened when you see that they’re at THAT Mass.
Now that you people have finally been forced to give up on your assertion that young people will flock to the Tridentine Mass
I don’t know who has asserted that. Young people can and do appreciate the traditional Mass and many of them are drawn to it, but “narrow is the way and difficult the road that leads to eternal life, and few there are who find it.” Young people today will never “flock” to the traditional Mass, any more than they are flocking to the Mass at all.
you seem to be hitting mainstream youth culture with a great deal of malice.
Your perception of malice is unsupported by evidence. In addition, it’s hardly possible for a Christian to laud and approve of mainstream youth culture today, nor should the Mass ever be reordered and reimagined to conform with the passing fancies of the secular, non-Christian culture.
Jealousy, perhaps?
Obviously not. People here have expressed all kinds of emotions and reactions to this liturgical botch-up, but jealousy was not one of them. They’ve expressed sorrow and shame at what they saw, not jealousy.
*I don’t know who has asserted that*
After SP came out trad blogs were full of predictions that young people would flock to Tridentine Masses in droves. It was wall-to-wall. Everywhere. It’s now being widely denied, and conveniently deleted.
One can only imagine what would Calvary look like with such a light show some two thousand years ago… sad.
Regarding…
“The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century. The “flat cake” is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days – this is the metropolis located at river Tigris where Christians still testify the truth of Jesus with their own blood. ”
I had commented earlier on this, but deleted it. What I said was that I thought it was a good thing because it actually looked like bread! I cannot say the same for some of the “quick dissolving” Communion wafers which are consecrated and distributed. To me, this diminishes the sign (not to say, of course, that it is not a true Sacrament or that Christ is somehow less present). It is similar to using “white wine” for the Precious Blood. Something is lost in terms of its value as a sign.
That said, it would have been far better to have distributed it through intinction (or alone, but not in the hand) and on the tongue with plenty of patens or communion cloths. Bread like that clearly generates more crumbs.
As to the question of “liturgical specifications” being violated, as a Byzantine, naturally I tend to take a maximalist view on all matters liturgical. But one need not be a maximalist to see that something was really amiss with the liturgy. Is it enough to say that no rubrics were violated? I guess you could say that nowhere is a hard stroke of an electric guitar and a driving base drum with crashing cymbals to announce the Pater Noster formally proscribed. But is it true, good and beautiful? Is it truly sacred and edifying for the assembly – yes, even for Catholic youth and their families? Does it really lift us into heaven or chain us instead to temporal realities?
My earlier statement about this demonstrating a compromise with the “spirit of the age” stands. The use of entertainment media has no real place in the liturgy of the Mass. Period. This is not simply a form of liturgical elitism. I do believe that the false “accommodation” such events reflect in ministering to our young people need to yield to a “higher calling.” It is a sin to bore a child with the Gospel. Is it not also wrong to risk cheapening or diminishing that which is truly holy and sacred? I seem to recall all sorts of verses in the Bible regarding this…
That said, having been in their shoes, I know the intentions of these generous volunteers and folks is good. Their apostolic desires are also probably very noble. But I think their understanding of what is proper for liturgy versus what is proper for general prayer meetings or youth gatherings needs to be properly guided and formed.
I certainly hope that both Werner Pirkner and Stephan Bazalka think long and hard about such things before the next gathering. And I hope the good Cardinal encourages such rethinking. Our youth, families and churches deserve much better.
In ICXC,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
former LifeTeen and Youth Group Keyboardist and Vocalist (15 years)
Ron Webber said: After SP came out trad blogs were full of predictions that young people would flock to Tridentine Masses in droves. It was wall-to-wall. Everywhere. It’s now being widely denied, and conveniently deleted.
Yes, very convenient that it’s all supposedly been deleted.
Ron,
I hope you’ll understand if I am a bit reluctant to take your word for it. As I recall, there was quite a bit of an expectation that “young people” would be more appreciative of a Traditional Mass than this nonsense, and where I live that has proven to be the case.
Surely, if this was “wall-to-wall” and “everywhere” you can find a few examples?
trad blogs were full of predictions
A little euphoia should be excusable. What’s not is the idea that the Church should stoop to utilitarianism, doing “whatever it takes” to put butts in pews (or waving arms in the air).
My understanding of eastern rite communion with leavened bread is that it is in the mouth with a draped sheet under your chin. I am not aware that they take it inthier hands and munch on it.
What’s your point Mr. Webber?
Let’s send His Eminencea short message! He will reply, even during the Preparation of…
http://katholische-jugend.at/gallery/alben/jkw_eo_so_fff/DSC00804.jpg
in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.
Luke 17:1-10 And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin…”Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, “Come at once and sit down at table’? Will he not rather say to him, “Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, “We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’ ”
Just to be clear, I reject the plea that liturgical law was followed here. But even if it were, who would believe this lame liturgitainment was the best they could do?
Ron Webber:
Suffice it to say that my wife and I often wonder where we would be able to meet young people any more, were it not for our traditional Latin Mass group — since the people we see at our OF parish Masses are all as old as we are.
In my experience, the people at TLM’s have half the average age of people at OF Masses, and have triple the number of young children. So … Yes, given the time scale of demographics, the predictions you bemoan were and are true.
Does it really matter if there are no “liturgical specifications” that have been violated. If the faithful have been cause scandal because of this then they shouldn’t do it. His Eminince should know better! He is supposed to be leading and not doing things that are going to bring about scandal and this amount of publicity to something if nothing has been violated.
My six-year-old son was in the room as my wife and I viewed the video.
As soon as the music came on, he cried, “You’re not supposed to sing that in church!”
When he saw the Host raised at the consecration, he said, “That’s a really big Communion. It looks like a pancake.”
Perhaps six-year-old boys who regularly attend the Extraordinary Form have more sense of the sacred than some professional liturgists.
You can clearly see that the young people present are enjoying what’s going on a great deal.
Many of them probably enjoy going to the disco, drinking themselves silly, and sleeping around too.
But are their souls in the state of sanctifying grace?
Schonborn’s immediate rebuttal must mean there really is something wrong with his Mass.
Insofar as his whiney “Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness.”
He should live so long. It sure as heck won’t be coming from me. Sounds like a little bit of ego going on there. Folks just don’t go out of their way to sneer at him. If he doesn’t like what people say about him, knock off the nonsense. Simple. People really do complicate their lives more than have to.
Please Cardinal Schonborn tell me again how cameras fail to record reality. It seems the film somehow made up the tie-dye vestments you were wearing. It seems the ballons were also invented by the camera.
You can’t fool the faithful anymore with you buffoonery.
Again many Catholic foolishly believe this man is a “conservative” and on their side.
Cardinal Schoborn has always been a Modernist due to the many liturgical abuses over the years and his pushing of theistic evolution.
Modernism has reached the highest levels of the Church.
Andrew:
“And, while the whole issue is still far from clear, it’s refreshing to hear a prelate’s office call on people to “repent and ask God for his forgiveness.””
Indeed. The Cardinal dares to use his authority.
Derek James:
“The statement is more outrageous than the liturgy.”
This whole madness has nothing to do with authority. This is about trust!
Once trust has been broken, we begin to question the person’s commitment to us on every level.
Whenever trust has been broken, you have a conscious choice: hold on to your hurt and reinforce your mistrust, or let go and forgive the other person.
Maybe I can forgive, but not forget.
This is very troublesome news for the Church.
I think I need to clarify what I said earlier about going to the Byzantines.
Not all of us are Fr. Zuhlsdorfs with the knowledge and competency to fight against liturgical nonsense. There are those of us who are simple people who want timeless Liturgy that is edifying and not grating on the ears.
I find the beauty of the Eastern Church to be fascinating and not just the liturgical worship. I prefer to pray the Akathist over the Rosary (which may sound like heresy to some folk) but that is a personal preference and not a blanket for all and I recognize that. Perhaps I could have done a better job explaining this but as a Benedictine liturgist once indicated, it is the mark of shallow character to spill one’s guts in one sitting.
Please forgive my off remark.
-KJS
I think His Eminence looks distinctly uncomfortable at various points. I strongly suspect he personally would have had nothing to do with organising it, but he may have the power to discipline, chastise, or dismiss those who were. I have to say that everything about it looks tragic – so many things are being done that would make any orthodox reverent believer feel really awkward, and have strong suspicions about the validity of the whole thing as a Mass (even if these are not justified) I have to say that it is a cause of scandal. Many, many young orthodox Catholics could be put off the church for years by this sort of thing. I have just been at the Brompton Oratory (in London) where I met a young man from a working class background from a Northern city (just the kind of “youth” these people think will be drawn in) who travels several miles to get to a church where he feels the Mass is said reverently. He is not a snob, or a liturgical loony or nitpicker. But he came back to the church because he found the Oratory, and the Oratorian Fathers. He was looking for holiness, and he found it. Perhaps holiness is in evidence there. It is just hard for me to sense it.
When you look at the photos, it is even worse. This actually took place in a church! The high altar and the tabernacle were hidden behind the screen.
I think that the Cardinal should resign!
St Rafael said: Cardinal Schoborn has always been a Modernist due to the many liturgical abuses over the years and his pushing of theistic evolution.
Neither of those things necessarily proves that one is a Modernist heretic, and Pius XII mentions in Humani Generis that Catholics may investigate the possible evolution of the human body from preexistent matter. Was Pius XII a Modernist?
“It’s worth noting that the Cardinal could not have been surprised by what he found since he’s celebrated the Liturgy in almost identical circumstances for this same group BEFORE!”
http://www.kreuz.net/article.2017.html
They refer to the happening as an “imbiB”, which means a “quick meal” in a snack bar.
This is blasphemy!
“Now that you people have finally been forced to give up on your assertion that young people will flock to the Tridentine Mass, you seem to be hitting mainstream youth culture with a great deal of malice.”
“Jealousy, perhaps?”
Comment by Ron Webber
Not jealous, but our churches in NW Europe are empty. You won’t find young people (- 40 years) there. An event-mass or something like that will not make the difference, on the contrary.
NOW LOOK AT THIS:
http://stephanscom.at/news/0/articles/2008/11/18/a15633/
WHAT IS GOING ON IN VIENNA?????
While I think the cardinal probably didnt plan such things ( if you remember, our late Great JP2 was forced to endure such things, while at the same time being critical of them) Its important to remember that alot of pastors, feel they have to keep the youth at all costs. At the same time you are competing with britney spears, hannah montana, and whoever else I have too much of a life to take notice of. I think this was more a case of some “liturgy planning committee” then anything else. Look at it this way, there was real oppourtunity for him to teach
The letter issued by the cardinal’s office clarifies little. The problem has little to do with what the communion bread was made of, but whether the way that the mass was celebrated was appropriate and reverent or not. With that kind of music and ballon release stuff, it is very hard to argue that there was any sense of sacredness. It is incredible that the office DARED demonstrate such an incorrigible and arrogant attitude without the least sense of reflection and humility. Yes, some people do need to repent!
Who ya gonna believe, the cardinal’s spokesman or your lyin’ eyes?
According to a new press release: In December there will be another “disco-mass” in the Cathedral of Eisenstadt.
“In einer Pressemeldung kündigten die Organisatoren an, Anfang Dezember den Eisenstädter Dom „mit Rock- und Pop-Klängen zum Beben“ zu bringen.”
This website condemns the “sacriligeous” actions of Cardinal Schönborn:
http://www.kreuz.net/article.8193.html
Was Pius XII a Modernist?”
Comment by Jordanes
)(
We don’t know. Was he?
I defense of Pius XII, it’s perhaps to be doubted, but at same time Paul VI was no great shakes. [And this is off topic.]
Pharisee wrote: “This is surely the work of demons. We should pray more than we complain. Or just skip the complaining and pray. We don’t know everything that is behind this.”
Amen!
Satan must be sitting back laughing as we the righteous play into his hand with our uncharitable remarks and detractions.
Our Church has been highjacked.
Matt Q said: We don’t know. Was he?
Yes we do — he wasn’t.
Well, we need to pray. The only person who has any real power is the Man upstairs. He responds to “knee”-mail.
I still VERY MUCH think that the way the church has gone in the last 40 years(and i have only been around 29 of them) is a way to test us more then anything. God is always in control. I think of it almost as our time in exile much like our jewish fathers.
*sigh* this is just depressing.
Well, Ron, “enjoying” themselves is not exactly what the young people should be doing at Mass…
This scares me…if a Cardinal can participate in this kind of silliness, where is the Church headed? This looked like a Pentecostal service rather than Holy Mass….a few years ago I took my teenage daughter to a guitar Mass at our Parish Church (organized by adults, celebrated by Fr. Rosica of “World Youth Day in Toronto” fame, accompanied by ear-splitting rock music). Much to the organizing adults’ surprise, the Mass was attended by fewer than ten teenagers. My daughter (11 at the time) said to me afterwards: it is so irritating when adults pretend to be teenagers.
Fr. Z, and others who understand German: There’s an article about this Mass at kreuz.net:
http://www.kreuz.net/article.8193.html
KRISTIN, if you have the text in German, was the Mass celebrated for the Austrian Catholics in Wolfsthal, or it was celebrated by the Cardinal for immigrants or refugees there from Mosul, if any, who are Chaledean Catholics. Was it in Roman or Chaldean Rite ?
Kristin,
The first comment to said article reads
“The first Christians did not know if any Eucharisitc celebration in the modern sense. It was rather a meal. served by men rather then women.”
“God is everywhere and has no need of a consecrated host. You cannot tell me that Gos can shut himself up in a taberacle.”
“So someday we in our Catholic church should have a discussion over not being caught up on the “real Presence” and avoid it. Would’nt the protestants see this as a step in the right direction perhaps?”
Such is the faith in Europe, such is the faith of the church. If I did not have kids I would kill myself tonight. It was a lie from the beginning. Peter, the Rock, the whole nine yards. Sure I could go Orthodox and play “let’s pretend”, surrounding myself with beauty and mysticism, and intellectual depth, but what would be the point? The barque is sunk, the rock shattered, there is no hermaneutic in the west to even continue. [Oh for pity’s sake!]
FATHER Z., be careful and verify the authenticity of the letter. This might turn out to be an entertaining affair.
Why does the Mass have the atmosphere of a heavy-metal concert? Why are there strob lights flashing and the screeching of electric guitars?
Is there any particular reason the Catholic youth are seen as being stupid and needing a “dumbed-down” Mass?It’s offensive.
Dear Lucia: I am with you on this one. Our children are age 5 and 6 (Both preparing for their First Holy Communion)and know all the responses and prayers at a dialogue TLM, as well as the Latin Hymns, and their prayers in both English and Latin. We are grateful to The Almighty for the gift of the TLM,our children, and still having the freedom not some watered-down, new-age, half-life presentation of something that appears more like a circus than a sacrifice. Please pray for this and all the prelates of Holy Mother Church,may God grant them courage to put their foot down on this sort of nonsense.
In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.
What pompous nonsense. Am I to believe that the blaring rock music, strobe lights and ballon launches were spliced into the tape?
—
Tim H:
Take heart. A little knowledge of history reveals that most of the Church – to the very highest levels – can be very wrong, for a very long time, and still survive with the faith intact. Indefectability works in centuries, sometimes. And the neo-ultramontanist notion that the Church hangs by every stupid little thing the Pope and his hierarchs do from day to day is ahistorical, unsupportable nonsense. It does not matter how loudly or how often the notion was shouted by the John Paul sycophants whenever they wanted to accuse us horrible traditionalists – it’s still nonsense.
Perhaps you may get some consolation from an essay I wrote when I was facing a similar crisis of faith a few years ago: here.
“Well, we need to pray. The only person who has any real power is the Man upstairs. He responds to “knee”-mail.
I still VERY MUCH think that the way the church has gone in the last 40 years(and i have only been around 29 of them) is a way to test us more then anything. God is always in control. I think of it almost as our time in exile much like our Jewish fathers.”
Comment by patrick f
)(
I like that, Patrick, Kneel-mail. :)
As far as the testing, I thing that’s true too. I read somewhere which quoted St John Eudes as saying that because of the sins of the Faithful, God sends us bad priests as a chastisement.
I am disappointed with the response from the cardinal’s spokeman. It was the usual ‘appeal to antiquity’ that we here from ‘liturgists’. I don’t think it excuses what took place.
“Such is the faith in Europe, such is the faith of the church. If I did not have kids I would kill myself tonight.”
Tim, I think that’s a little extreme. My comment earlier about suicide was a joke. Don’t get any ideas. Seriously.
There have been periods when the state of the Church was even worse, believe it or not. Liturgical abuse and ignorance of the faith isn’t confined to the last 40 years.
I know it is a cliché, but there is just no way this kind of liturgical nonsense would ever have happened prior to the introduction of the NO Mess (oops, I mean “Mass”).
I know it is a cliché, but there is just no way this kind of liturgical nonsense would ever have happened prior to the introduction of the NO Mess (oops, I mean “Mass”).
I’ll hazard a guess that you could find a good number of liturgical abuses in 13th-century England perpetrated by semi-literate priests. No altar girls, though – they could only serve as mistresses.
Let’s stop pretending that everything used to be perfect. The Church has been in near-perpetual crisis since its foundation. We’re in a battle, for pete’s sake!!!
It was thanks to “Masses” like this at school in the 70s that I left the church. Where is the reverence in a spectacle like this?
Erich Leitenberger would also like to advise that H.E. Card. Schönborn has some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale…
HAR HAR HAR !!!
The last trad standing wrote: “I know it is a cliché, but there is just no way this kind of liturgical nonsense would ever have happened prior to the introduction of the NO Mess (oops, I mean “Mass”).”
You may wish to read “The Liturgical Movement: Gueranger to Beauduin to Bugnini” (subtitle: The Trojan Horse in the City of God) by Fr. Didier Bonneterre, who starts his study in 1794 — not 1974.
Think about it: if a priest is willing to intentionally stray from the rubrics of the OF, why would he not stray from the rubrics of the EF?
“…when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor…”
Do you suppose that he means “not even the least particle of the sacred Host” or that he really does mean “no tiny little piece of bread”?
Admittedly, the fraction rite (and indeed the Mass) is sometimes called the Breaking of Bread, but since the time of the eucharistic heresies more specific language has been both customary and necessary among Catholics.
Cardinal Schönborn seems to be a Dominican.
I guess that this explains everything.
If you’ve any questions or comments:
Prof. Erich Leitenberger
e.leitenberger@edw.or.at
“Think about it: if a priest is willing to intentionally stray from the rubrics of the OF, why would he not stray from the rubrics of the EF?” A friend of mine who studied in Rome met an older member of his community who celebrated a devotional Mass of Our Lady every day of the year. Including Good Friday, etc. Every day of the year. When my friend tells his friends back home, most of the “traditionalists” amongst them say “what wonderful devotion!”
The response would do credit to Dr Goebbels, it is more damaging to the Cardinal’s reputation than the Liturgy.
It is high time the Directory on Children’s Masses was withdrawn, it is the root of many abuses.
Tim H said: If I did not have kids I would kill myself tonight. It was a lie from the beginning. Peter, the Rock, the whole nine yards. Sure I could go Orthodox and play “let’s pretend”, surrounding myself with beauty and mysticism, and intellectual depth, but what would be the point? The barque is sunk, the rock shattered, there is no hermaneutic in the west to even continue.
Tim, I will pray for you. Your words are very alarming and I fear for your emotional health if you are feeling like killing yourself. Find someone t talk to, someone who can help, right away. Don’t let scandal destroy you — resist it.
The spokesman said, “Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness.”
Is that supposed to put me on a guilt trip? It didn’t work! Did it work for you?
Dear Fr. Daniel,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments! I concur with most of them wholeheartedly, but I had to take some exception to this one:
What I said was that I thought it was a good thing because it actually looked like bread!
I suppose I can understand that sentiment (and it was pretty rampant when I was in the seminary); but the Pesach Seder, which was the foreshadowing of the Holy Eucharist, was never going out of its way to showcase the idea of “this is the regular bread that we eat every day!” The mere fact that it was unleavened was quite unusual (and it was one of the main points!), compared to the rest of the year. As such, the “bread symbolism”–especially in this day and age, in which we have such a crisis of belief in the Real Presence of Our Lord (I also noted the spokesman’s repeated descriptions of Our Eucharistic Lord as “bread”, which really didn’t help matters)–is secondary in importance, at very best; rather, I’d suggest that the thin wafers actually enhance the symbolism–since the point was to showcase the lack of leavening (which was unusual, and led into the Exodus story), and not simply the fact that it was “bread” (which was a daily staple, and had nothing extraordinarily to do with the Passover and its meaning).
But more importantly: the idea that (and I can’t help but give an exasperated sigh whenever I use this word) “substantial” bread (read: “crumbly”) is somehow preferable to the standard wafer strikes me a bit like someone saying that riding a motorcycle without a helmet is somehow preferable, since “you get the full effect of the experience, with wind in your hair, etc.”. The fact that the risk of serious injury or death skyrockets doesn’t seem to move them… just as the risk of profanation of Our Lord doesn’t seem to impress many in the “substantial bread” camp, appreciably.
Somehow, if it were infant children who were being “accidentally dropped” to the floor by the dozens or hundreds, each day throughout the world, I don’t think the spectators would be as blase… (“Oops! Oh, well… it happens; what can you do?”) How does Our Blessed Lord rank so much lower than they?
The cardinal and his spokesman, with such arrogant and silly statement (is Vienna an oriental rite diocese? and even if it were so, are baloons, laser-lights and phoney pop music an ancietn caldean tradition?), have done even worse than that puppet mass itself. They keep on insulting the faithful’s intelligence.
“St. Joseph is Patron of the Church. You must pray a lot to St. Joseph in this situation, that he either open the bishop’s eyes or he close them for good.” – Fr. Nicola Bux
Ha! my anti-spam word was “hermeneutic”. Which hermeneutic does this liturgy demonstrate? I am having flashbacks of Sesame Street’s “One of these is not like the other” song. Hermeneutic of continuity or rupture?
The spokesman simply made the situation worse. He pulled a “we do this because they suffer there” and then criticized those who criticize the cardinal. That does not lend itself to an interpretation of “this spokesman is honestly trying to address the concerns of the faithful”.
One bad turn does not deserve another.
Tim H:
So you found a post from a heretic on kreuz.net? If you have ever spent time reading that website you will already know that the discussions on most posts are overrun with heretics and militant homosexuals. There is no doubt that orthodox Catholicism is already very much socially unacceptable in Europe. But then again, so what? Catholics have been martyred by the thousands in Europe before. It can happen again. The Catholic Church does not depend on being popular in Europe. Why should you worry so much about what some random German heretic posts to a website?
“While I think the cardinal probably didnt plan such things ( if you remember, our late Great JP2 was forced to endure such things, while at the same time being critical of them)”
Why is Pope Benedict XVI the Great not “forced” to endure such things?
Nick: There was a bit of silliness in Australia, if you recall.
Yes, I think the cardinal must resign. This is yet another example of his very poor judgement: there was the business with his predecessor when he supported him in the face of all the evidence (and it was not filmed by Gloria.tv); there was wrong position he took on the “pro multis” translation question; then there has been his failure to correct liturgical abuse right acorss the archdiocese of Vienna; now this and what next?
I too assume that the Cardinal arrived to discover all that was planned, and I amk sure he is a kind man, but surely kindness would make His Emminence at least decline the taking of balloons personally during the service as a witness to those gathered. I am surprised by the statement that no liturgical norms were violated. For one thing, to have a vested deacon stand to the side while an altar server [of whatever gender] sit on the sedilia is not normative, nor are the pourous vessels. It is surely sad that the Cardinal did not gently but firlmy instruct the MC that the aberations planned were not to be permitted(it is called ‘doing the truth in chaity’). If in fact he was unaware of them before hand, then I am also hopeful that His Emminence will have spoken to the organisers afterwards and made it clear that this is not what is called for at the Sacred Mystery. If not, then he gave approval by silence. While we humbnle preists often stand alone in attemtping to restore dignity, reverence and faithful obedience to the norms in our parishes, we cannot hope to make an impact when such liturgies are celebrated by Prince’s of the Church. A very sad video and a rather less than suitable response from the Archibishop’s spokesman.
Adelheid: I think Card. Schönborn is a good man. I would rather see him make changes, than resign.
We are not Donatists and this is not a Church where only the pure are worthy to be members.
Paladin,
Thank you for your comments and points. They are well taken. I do think that the way that we Byzantines distribute Communion (with or without the spoons, but through intinction) would certainly be a way to avoid the issue with crumbs and the faithful. Also, I use a knife to cut up the pieces, which, while creating some crumbs on the diskos, usually creates something of a clean edge. Breaking the “Holy Bread” (the language of our liturgy) with ones hands naturally creates crumbs.
Also, as Byzantines we use prosphora bread that actually looks like bread, and yet there is no crisis of faith in the Real Presence. The issue is not just what the Holy Bread looks like, but rather how we TREAT it and who is able to HANDLE it.
Personally, I think the Latin Church should recover the subdiaconate and commission these men to assist in the distribution of Holy Communion if not enough priests and deacons are available.
God bless,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
Adelheid: I think Card. Schönborn is a good man. I would rather see him make changes, than resign.
We are not Donatists and this is not a Church where only the pure are worthy to be members.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 20 November 2008 @ 12:51 pm
Please, do not get me wrongly. I am not saying that the cardinal is not a good man nor that he is a bad man. I am just saying that his judgement is so poor that he is unable to guide the big diocese like Vienna.
What would Pope Benedict XVI say about such matters? Here are some quotes of his that I think are apropos:
IMHO we must be careful what we do in the Sacred Liturgy for it is not a ground for experimentation but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that we are charged with. My “Youth Mass” over 60 years ago was not a new fabrication but what Fr. Frederick Faber called “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.” Our training by dedicated nuns led us to believe that we were not to be entertained or to inject ourselves into the sacred liturgy in an ostentatious manner but to reverently follow the actions and prayers of the priest on the altar. Would that the same be the case today. And, would that the Cardinal’s spokesman and the Cardinal himself would understand the pain that this episode has caused for many of the faithful.
Paul,
Once again we are presented with the same old tired argument that “Well, bad things cannot be prevented so you have no cause to complain now that we are accommodating them” It’s been applied to everything from condoms to Communion in the hand and now, apparently, to the liturgy itself.
The difference, in case you did not know, between an abusive liturgy in 13th century England, and one in 21st century Austria is that the former were clearly known to be abuses. The latter, as the Cardinal’s spokesman so succinctly put it can be arguably described as not abuses but simply allowed variations – despite the fact that they fail the smell test. In the former, people were rightfully offended and worked to correct and prevent them. In the latter, concerns ate cavalierly dismissed.
Honestly, would you have no trouble with the removal of all speed limit signs and their replacement with a general admonition to “stop driving too fast”?
Paul Haley,
Just to make sure that there is no mis-understanding, you are not the “Paul” I was referring to. Instead I was responding to “Paul” who made the post of 20 November 2008 @ 5:08 am
I knew Fr Schonborn a bit when I was in Rome, and he was working with the catechism. Fairly often, he used to come to the Convitto, where I lived, to see another Dominican.
1. I have been told that this was nothing new–the Cardinal has done this same youth mass before.
2. He is a good man, a competent prof of Christology, and a nice guy, but he shouldn’t be compared with JRatzinger. He lacks the Ratzinger brilliance and toughness.
3. He also did not write any of the catechism, nor was he its guiding force. He was the general editor, a cut and paste man.
4. More than one person, some of whom are Dominicans, has told me that Cardinal Schonborn is ill suited for the job in Vienna. I think he would like the job at the Holy Office, but I doubt that will happen.
I thought I could not watch this when originally posted because I had a headache. The update piqued my interest, so I watched just now. I had to turn the clip off before it was done. Anyone see the movie Scanners???
FR. Z., three QUESTIONS:
1) Does the OF in any document envisage the Communion in the way how it was shown in the photos. If yes, we can’t complain against the Cardinal, we can only criticize the OF itself. If it is not envisaged, it was an abuse, and what the Cardinal’s Spokesmen say can be true only if what is shown on the photograph was a falsificate. If it wasn’t a falsificate the Spokesmen did not tell the truth – to use a polite language.
2) “The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century. The ‘flat cake’ is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days.”
By whom it is “used in Mossul in these days”? I find the satement so ridiculous that I wonder whether it is authentic.
3) It occurred to me that there might be in the Wolfsthal village a Chaldean Catholic
Community from Iraq, but the Spokesman would have certainly pointed it out. In any case it would have been a Chaldean Rite, not the OF
Fr. Z,
There was more than a little silliness in Australia. As you say, step by step, Pope Benedict is changing the routine, but even he has been conditioned over 27 years to expect anything. The good Cardinal seems to be stuck. Let’s see if Pope Benedict’s pontificate will be as notorious as his predecessor’s for liturgical exuberance.
“Well, bad things cannot be prevented so you have no cause to complain now that we are accommodating them”
I don’t know where you get that. I was simply poiting out that things have always been bad. There has always been abuse of the liturgy and widespread ignorance of the faith. Obviously, a Cardinal doing something like this is particularly grave, but it’s not the worst thing a Cardinal has done or the gravest scandal one has caused, I’m sure.
Hi, Fr. Daniel!
Thanks for your points; you wrote:
Also, as Byzantines we use prosphora bread that actually looks like bread, and yet there is no crisis of faith in the Real Presence. The issue is not just what the Holy Bread looks like, but rather how we TREAT it and who is able to HANDLE it.
Oh, certainly! Please don’t think that I was denigrating the Byzantine Liturgy (which I admire greatly) or rubrics! My specific point was to be sure that no-one walked away with the attitude of, “substantial bread is intrinsically superior to standard Latin-Rite wafers, because of its [supposed] rich symbolism”.
Also: when I mentioned the crisis of faith in the Real Presence (I’ll take your word for it that there isn’t a parallel crisis among the Byzantine faithful), I wasn’t suggesting that substantial bread was the cause; I was suggesting that it was likely to exacerbate the problem (since it reminds the typical “cultural Catholic” of the snack bread they can order at various restaurants)… and that the use of standard wafers, preferably distributed by a validly ordained priest to a communicant who receives on the tongue (God grant that kneeling become the norm again, in the USA, and soon!), could do much to counter that threat (since such wafers are easily handled with the delicacy and reverence due to Our Lord, while minimizing crumbs of the Sacred Host).
May God bless you and yours, too!
Fr Z said:
Hear, hear Fr Z. We can\’t make ourselves the \”measrurers\” or the \”judges\” when it comes to membership in the Church, or a person\’s place in the hierarchy. That is up to God ultimately, and up to the Holy Father when it comes to Cardinals. That doesn\’t mean we don\’t discern between what is right and wrong, false or true; but we can leave that to those charged by God with the responsibility. I absolutely agree that we should give him the benefit of the doubt, and have a merciful attitude. Anybody can make mistakes and can find themselves in situations that are tricky, and in which it is difficult to act rightly, or to discern how to go about improving something.
However, I would add one qualifier to that. When a person keeps making the same serious mistake, and refuses to show any remorse, or accept there is anything wrong with something that is seriously and objectively wrong, and they are in a position of responsibility, and example, and leadership, then for the sake of the common good of the Church, for the honour of God, and the salvation of souls, there needs to be some rectification…and discipline from those in authority…does there not?
Not that we would know if he was disciplined by the Holy Father. That would happen in private, if it did happen.
It seems that this Cdl has been allowing, if not endorsing this stuff for a while? I\’m not saying \”Let\’s string him up\” – but I do think that the more this stuff is allowed to continue without any consequences for those involved who should know better (ie, the Cdl, not the ignorant youth), the more we are further away from restoring the Liturgy, helping the Church grow, and consequently helping the world (save the liturgy, save the world)
We are living the \”age of mercy and grace\” (cf, St Therese, St Faustina) and we can\’t measure anybody in the Church, but mercy doesn\’t mean letting everything go. These things should be stopped by those who can stop them, out of mercy for these young people, and out of mercy for all in the Church.
Paul,
First of all, I deny your assertion that the kinds and quantity of liturgical abuses we are seeing today existed in the 13th century, and also deny your particularly offensive suggestion that Priests routinely and commonly kept mistresses.
Secondly, what possible purpose could you have for pointing out the obvious (Man is a fallible sinner) in this context other than to summarily dismiss any concerns? Why, for example do you state : “it’s not the worst thing a Cardinal has done or the gravest scandal one has caused, I’m sure.”? What bearing does this “fact” have on the issue at hand? Could a thief legitimately avoid punishment because others have stolen more?
Fr. Z,
Cardinal Schonborn may be a good man, but like most Modernists he thinks he has done nothing wrong. Modernism as a system, infects the mind and clouds it.
You are right we are not Donatists, but the debate over Donatism was over whether the validity of sacraments depended on the moral charateristics of the priest.
No one is arguing Donatism in the case of Cardinal Schonborn, he just doesn’t have the judgement and orthodoxy to remain a bishop for that out of control diocese.
What makes you think he wants to make changes? Shouldn’t have made changes by now? Why let the abuses go on for years? What if Cardinal Schonborn thinks he has done nothing wrong in governance and administration all this time?
Father Z.,
I’m wondering if this might be an opportunity to start another thread on some worthy traditional Catholic efforts to reach the youth, without stooping to a “target market” and “entertainment oriented” approach to liturgy.
Perhaps there are those here who know of certain things that are working that don’t involve electric guitars and drums at Mass and would be willing to share it. It might be a more positive response to this event and may generate some new approaches to apostolic work among young people.
Just a suggestion…
In ICXC,
Fr. Deacon Daniel
I am struggling with this thing.
According to the computerized English translation of this article http://www.kreuz.net/article.2017.html, three years ago, on October 9, 2005, “the archbishop of Vienna celebrated the large opening service of the new `youth church.” That ‘youth church’ appears to be the same church that is the topic of these posts.
The photos accompanying the October 11, 2005 article depict a service, with close-ups of smiling Cardinal Schönborn, that look nearly identical to what is presented in the recent video. The translation awkwardly quotes Cardinal Schönborn, “The Viennese archbishop asked the young people to remain faithful for the experiment ‘youth church’.”
A number have commented here that Cardinal Schönborn must have been unaware that the service filmed on this video was going to take place in such a manner. That does not appear to be the case.
Not all, but most who have commented here perceive this Mass to have been an abuse, a violation of the sacred, sacrificial nature of the Mass.
As the editor of the CCC, Cardinal Schönborn is a highly respected, almost quintessential, representative of post-VC2 thought. From the perspective of this prestigious member of the Church hierarchy, this Mass was not an abuse, but is a faithful “celebration” of a post-VC2 Mass.
In response to the postings on this website, the Cardinal’s spokesperson wrote, “it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated” and charged that “those who have dared . . . to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna” should “repent and ask God for his forgiveness.”
I am having a difficult time avoiding the conclusion that either there is something very wrong about calling this Mass an abuse — and thus most people posting here need to “repent” of their rigid, judgmental views — or there is something very wrong with official, hierarchically-approved, post-VC2 thought.
I think Brian picked up an important message in the Cardinal’s response. It really disturbed me when I read it. And if I was Fr. Z, I would take it as a direct threat.
When Traditionalist (FSSPX) and Roman Orthodox (former indults, FSSP, Christ the King) voice their concerns and opinions – they receive a very clear and concise rebuke. (Excommunication communications anybody?) I was surprised we got noticed!
Of course, liberals and modernist spew their crap and poison the next generation without remorse or censure.
Pray for our Monsignor Schonborn – he really needs it. And he’s really gonna need it.
Matt from South Kent, you make some good points that I also had pondered.
It is a very current trend in the Church: i.e., all mercy and patience towards progressives, liberals, modernists, and dissenters; no mercy or patience towards traditionalists (who are considered to be pharisees because they won’t tolerate certain things). Pope Benedict is certainly beginning to change this.
Hans Kung continues to teach heresy and error, and openly attack the pope, as does Cdl Marini and nothing seems to happen to these people.
But, if you are traditional, and you do or say things that you have the freedom to do in the Church (i.e., keep saying a traditional Mass), you are threatened, isolated, treated with suspicion, seen as a rebel, and hindered at many levels.
It is a “sickness” in the Church unfortunately.
So when Cdl Schonborn celebrates an horrific Mass, and he is rightly criticized, he turns and attacks those who do so, accusing them, telling them to repent, claiming to have freedom to do the Mass that way (i.e., “there were no violations”, thereby assuming that those criticizing him are stuck in the “rules”), and yet, I wonder how traditional Catholics who love the traditional Mass in his diocese have faired? Have they been treated well and their freedoms respected?
Does he grant traditional Catholics the same liberty that he claims for himself?
And what does he do about terrible modernist Masses? Apparently he encourages such experimentation among the youth.
As far as I know, the Vatican-II documents nor the post-Vatican-II documents mention the \”discomass\” or the \”rockmass\”.
As a result, this is a creation of the people who organize them.
It is their OWN creation.
So, this goes much further than what Bugnini created.
This \”discomass\” or this \”rockmass\” or whatever you would like to call it, is NOT a typical Novus Ordo Mass.
The assertion by that spokesman that: \”it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.\” is just ridiculous.
This \”celebration\” shows that these people are completely alienated from the traditional intention of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The Church, as the mystical Christ, must have her own permanent sacrifice, which surely cannot be either an independent addition to that of Golgotha or its intrinsic complement; it can only be the one self-same sacrifice of the Cross, by an unbloody offering.
If the Mass is to be a true sacrifice in the literal sense, it must realize the philosophical conception of sacrifice.
Four things are necessary to a sacrifice:
* a sacrificial gift (res oblata),
* a sacrificing minister (minister legitimus),
* a sacrificial action (actio sacrificica), and
* a sacrificial end or object (finis sacrificii).
Thus: \”Sacrifice is the external oblation to God by an authorized minister of a sense-perceptible object, either through its destruction or at least through its real transformation, in acknowledgement of God\’s supreme dominion and of the appeasing of His wrath.\”
In its denial of the true Divinity of Christ and of every supernatural institution, modern unbelief endeavours, by means of the so-called historico-religious method, to explain the character of the Eucharist and the Eucharist sacrifice as the natural result of a spontaneous process of development in the Christian religion. In this connection it is interesting to observe how these different and conflicting hypotheses refute one another.
Let it suffice to note that all these explanations necessarily lead to impenetrable night, as long as men refuse to believe in the true Divinity of Christ, who commanded that His bloody sacrifice on the Cross should be daily renewed by an unbloody sacrifice of His Body and Blood in the Mass under the simple elements of bread and wine. This alone is the origin and nature of the Mass.
So, nobody had or has the right to change the true nature of the mass. NOBODY.
What happened in Wolfsthal and in other places is VILE CORRUPTION IN TEACHING OF CHILDREN. Some have become vipers in the DESTRUCTION OF SOULS.
So, this is not the time to leave the H. Catholic Church.
You could start praying, but this is a defensive strategy. You could start fighting, which would be more offensive.
Whatever you choose, this is not the time to leave for the mountains to hide in a cave.
Get out and get active!
VIVA IL PAPA!
If not for some amateurish video, we would all attest to the truth: that the cardinal’s Mass was really a solemn affair, in no way violating the liturgical specifications. In fact, consider the ways this Mass enriches the liturgical specifications by adding to them things the authors of the original specifications forgot to include.
If I might offer a little Eastern insight into the matter of “being a Pharisee.” In the Orthros (Matins) for the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee (Luke 18:10-14) there is the hymn: “Let us make haste to follow the Pharisee in his virtues and to emulate the Publican in his humility, and let us hate what is wrong in each of them: foolish pride and the defilement of transgressions.” For too long there has been a mistaken perception that those who are vocal about following the traditions, who avoid transgressions, are “Pharisees.” Then we should all be Pharisees, but humble Pharisees.
“Secondly, what possible purpose could you have for pointing out the obvious (Man is a fallible sinner) in this context other than to summarily dismiss any concerns? Why, for example do you state : “it’s not the worst thing a Cardinal has done or the gravest scandal one has caused, I’m sure.”? What bearing does this “fact” have on the issue at hand? Could a thief legitimately avoid punishment because others have stolen more?”
I find your comments quite comical, because I can barely believe all this anger is being directed at me. I’m not excusing the event. If you read through my comments, I harshly criticized it.
I just think that some of the reaction has been over the top – threatening to change rites or commit suicide over this is silly. My only point is that the Church has almost always been in crisis, and has come out of each one just fine – let’s not despair!
(Reposting; it appears the first didn’t get through)
Here’s your meme for the week, folks:
Der Kardinal hat keine Kleider an.
In case anyone is keeping track of the liturgical mistakes the Cardinal’s spokesman overlooked, please include this small one:
“The use of any kind of projector […] with or without sound track, is strictly forbidden in church for any reason, even if it be for a pious, religious, or charitable cause.” [De musica sacra, 1958, #73]
hmm….
“In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.
The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century.”
Versus
“The bread for celebrating the Eucharist must be made only from wheat, must be recently baked, and, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, must be unleavened.” – GIRM (2002), No.320 and GIRM (1970), No. 248 and repeated in Redemptionis Sacramentum, 2005
“According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.” Code of Canon Law, No. 926
Lord, have mercy.
I am having a difficult time avoiding the conclusion that either there is something very wrong about calling this Mass an abuse—and thus most people posting here need to “repent” of their rigid, judgmental views—or there is something very wrong with official, hierarchically-approved, post-VC2 thought.
Comment by Brian
Of course, that has been the position of JRatzinger for some time, that the present state of the liturgy is not an accurate reflection of Sacrosanctum Concilium.
He also warned against seeing all Vat II documents through the prism of Gaudium et Spes.
IMHO, the theological basis for the present state of the liturgy is the Protestant notion that the Eucharist is a Meal–even though there is no reference to the Mass as Meal concept in SC.
In Gaudium et Spes 38.4, however, we find:
The Lord left behind a pledge of this hope and strength for life’s journey in that sacrament of faith where natural elements refined by man are gloriously changed into His Body and Blood, providing a meal of brotherly solidarity and a foretaste of the heavenly banquet.
I might add that in Catholic theology there is reference to the Eucharist as a Banquet (e.g., Heavenly or Paschal). But unlike the Meal Concept (in which the Eucharist is seen as a memorial of the Last Supper), Banquet is an Eschatological term (cf Mt 26:29).
If the Cardinal was taken by surprise he could have simply asked himself “what would Jesus do in these circumstances”? and then gone “oh yes, now I remember, He insisted that His Father’s house be shown respect”! Plus I would like to add nobody young or old who goes to the trouble of putting aside time for Mass would object to getting a solid teaching on the meanings of the Mass – a great catechesis moment wasted. My prayers are with all priests, bishops and consecrated persons, may God strengthen them and give them wisdom and courage and great joy in always doing His adorable Will. – Rene
it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.
If this is so, does it imply that a celebrant can \”Say the Black\” and \”Do the Red\”, yet fail abysmally to give the glory to God that He deserves in every Mass.
The bread certainly looked like real bread, it just didn’t look like real middle eastern unleavened flat bread. It was only after I became Catholic did I experience the ‘AHA’ moment in a Greek restaurant when presented with a large flat round unleavened bread as part of my dinner.
After seeing the video in fact it looked leavened to me. Leavening causes gas bubbles to form in the bread making it rise and look fluffy. One poster (Austrian 18 Nov. 3:39) earlier on in the thread said that the bread made for these eucharists had air or gas injected to fluff them up. These mass breads WERE leavened albeit artificially rather than as an integral ingredient added to cause leavening.
In Wikipedia, “A leavening agent (sometimes called just leavening or leaven) is a substance used in doughs and batters that causes a foaming action intended to lighten and soften the finished product. The leavening agent reacts with moisture, heat, acidity, or other triggers to produce gas (usually carbon dioxide and sometimes ethanol) that becomes trapped as bubbles within the dough.”
also
“Other leaveners: Steam and air are used as leavening agents when they expand upon heating. To take advantage of this style of leavening, the baking must be done at high enough temperatures to flash the water to steam, with a batter that is capable of holding the steam in until set. This effect is typically used in popovers, Yorkshire puddings, and to a lesser extent in Tempura. Nitrous oxide is used as a propellant in aerosol whip cream cans. When the gas boils out of the cream, it also instantly creates a foam.
References
Matz, S (1972). “Bakery Technology and Engineering”, AVI Publishing Co.
Since they were obviously leavened then this bread matter was valid but illicit as it is against “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” No.48. If the bread did not contain or was not made from wheat then it would have been invalid.
Father, Terry over at “Abbey Roads 2” posted on your blog and this thread, and he gave you quite a compliment: “The most famous Catholic Blogger in the World.”
http://terry58.stblogs.com/2008/11/20/the-most-famous-catholic-blogger-in-the-world/
I thought it a fitting compliment. In Christ,
Next time, will
His Eminence inhale
some helium prior
to speaking?
Those of you that think you are so Catholic that would tell Jesus how to comb his hair
Remember the scripture “It is Mercy I seek” [Ah yes… the old “Jesus doesn’t care about rules or authority” argument.]
FATHER DEACON DANIEL
Wit due respect, may I suggest, that to use this debate to promote the Byzantine Liturgy is out of place. Not that I despise it in any way: on the contrary, I would personally be delighted to see it replace the New Latin Rite completely, but this is a wishful thinking.
We have to put up with this unfortunate fabrication in which the so called “abuses” abound to the point that they are no longer abuses but the standard, and what is in the rubrics, instead of being a standard, is a mere fiction.
What on earth is there to be jealous about? If I were the same age as these poor kids, this is exactly the sort of thing that would make me leave the church – along with the shenanigans that occur at World “Yoof” Day.
This is the height of patronising. These self-styled “liturgists” think that young people are so retarded that they actually need this nonsense. Pathetic…
GABRIELUS 18t Nov.
You are right but not entirely: in the Eucharist, as in all sacraments the grace is “on offer”, but is up to us to make a good use of it. Whether we will, depends on our disposition, which is, in its turn, affected by the kind of ritual we go through. While there are admirable exceptions, this new ritual is, generally speaking, not conductive of good disposition. That is the point the traditionalists make.
And, but the way: the “proper form” is one of the conditions for confecting the Eucharist; which is the Real Presence and the Sacrifice, and the grace doesn’t come from it. It is mainly from the Real Presence that the grace comes to those in good disposition, who unite themselves to Christ Present in the consecrated Host.