Hello Detroit! ACC UNDERWAY!


See who’s speaking!



A priest friend just asked if the was a special cargo plane for the big puppets.


Do the airlines charge extra for all the extra baggage the speakers are hauling around?


Here’s Joan Chittister’s intro to her prayer for Pentecost as published here


“The Holy Spirit embodies the life force of the universe, the power of God, the animating energy present in all things and captured by none. On this great feast of Pentecost, the coming of the Spirit of God, I invite you to pray with me”

It reminded me a lot of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

“The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.”


A paragraph from the Detroit Free Press:


Kung, who could not attend in person because of health reasons, was applauded by the audience, a mostly elderly crowd disappointed at what they see as the church’s rightward turn.

You know…. couldn’t have put it better myself!


I was looking for a Twitter hashtag for this ACC conference. All I could find was #geriatric


Some swag:



An action shot!


Better: Call To Action shot!


There are helpful volunteers in case you get even more lost and confused.



The Cobo Center is a huge venue with many and diverse groups.



I wonder if this is what Charles Marlow felt like.



Made it out alive.


About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Lighter fare, Our Catholic Identity, SESSIUNCULA, The Drill, Throwing a Nutty, What Fr. Z is up to. Bookmark the permalink.


  1. Glen M says:

    That’s a nice welcome home sign for the service men and women.

  2. JohnMa says:

    Father, remember your bulletproof vest goes under the cassock whenever you are outside!

  3. Random Friar says:

    Why is there a hotel beachfront photo for the ACC? Odd.

  4. romanrevert says:

    I read through the brochure. I think I need to shower now. yech.

  5. bmccoy says:

    I read the cover of the brochure and died a little inside.

  6. disco says:

    You’re there?!

  7. SuzyQ says:

    Random Friar: The photo is of the Detroit RiverWalk. It runs along the Detroit River and right past Cobo Center, where the ACC is meeting.

  8. benedetta says:

    “The breakout sessions” (as in a case of hives…)


    What is it all about I wonder this “theology of baptism” that they list repeatedly and so earnestly? I think I can guess as I observe it all around. I think essentially this is the embodiment of what has been served up triumphantly as dictatorship where I am. It means, once you are baptized a Catholic you need not do anything more in your entire life, whether it is Mass attendance or whatever the Bishop of Rome suggests, until you die. It is readily observable here. It means, you have graduated from the Church forever and all that is left is to await your place (preordained of course) among the elect in heaven.

    I see that the raging case of breakout will end with a grand finale with none other than the Mr. Fax aka Matthew Fox! As you go forth, itching and scratching, with his unique thoughts and ruminations buzzing in your ears.

  9. wanda says:

    Have a great time, Fr. Z. Be careful out there! Keep your shield up. I wonder if the ‘other’ conference feels any disturbance in the ‘force’? I trust you will enjoy the conference and get to try out the local cuisine. What is the local favorite? Barbeque, maybe?

  10. benedetta says:

    Oh also I see a helpful entry that says basically “liturgy and how we utilize it to pursue our agenda”. That is it in a nutshell for sure. Maybe the whole program should be re-named “The Church and how we can use and manipulate her into submitting to our agenda of a few political items du jour”. Etc etc.
    Too bad they never checked for the consent of the whole laity and Church before exploitation. Now decades later it’s not too late to listen for the reply: No!

  11. benedetta says:

    Can somebody help me out? I am looking over their vast and detailed website yet nowhere do I see anything regarding the sanctity of human life, the pressing issue of injustice in our time, whereby women are co-erced by male people to kill life force when the male people must now balance or curtail their sexual gratification of the woman with the needs of another human being? Who refuse to perform works of mercy to support the life force, the energy of the universe? The dignity from which every right flows? I see nada, zip, nothing on it. Am I missing something? Do they haven no regard for the women and the children and the families? Aren’t we going to liturgize this agenda too? I am lost. I will check with the powers that be where I am as all of what this group seems to be about was hand-crafted and pushed to the exclusion of all else. I am certain I will be able to find a wise out of the box thinking, sage.

  12. wanda says:

    Aaaaaccckkk! I was trying to have a bite of lunch, but at seeing that poster, mouth falls open, queeziness comes on, appetite gone. If you see any of that stuff you set your phaser on stun and clean house, will ya? Please? I don’t think light sabers have a stun setting.

    Hope that image of that poster doesn’t get burned onto my retinas.

  13. benedetta says:

    Looking forward to a photo of the concelebrating giant puppet preests.

    See also that their literature proudly quotes from the last pope they consider legitimate, Pope John XXIII. I don’t think Pope John XXIII would take kindly to their inspiration to schism with the Church after his passing (God bless him). Somehow I think what they animate, wish for and pretend to bless does real violence to the legitimate spirit of Vatican II. There is certainly a spirit of Vatican II and what they are doing, have done, are all about, is not it.

  14. kat says:

    Since Father has been here before, I assume he knows about Greektown’s Pegasus Restaurant, or Pizza Papoulis, or some of the other ethnic areas downtown that have great food! If he ventures east he can go to the Pointes and get some good seafood along Lake St. Clair too! And there’s Andiamo’s.

    Tigers are in town playing this weekend, if you want to get in a baseball game!

    (Avoiding comments on ACC on purpose LOL)

  15. ghlad says:

    Hilarious, Father! haha

  16. cblanch says:

    I think Obi-Wan’s quote is less confusing.

  17. ROFL Fr. Z!!!

    Dissent-Fest 2011

  18. cregduff says:

    Prophetic indeed. Did I hear someone say biological solution?

  19. catholicmidwest says:

    Hey. Not all of us in the older contingent are stupid enough to go to a dissident’s convention. Have some respect for your elders there, kid.

  20. AnAmericanMother says:

    “prophetic”? Idiotic is more like it.
    Here’s what I don’t understand: EVERYTHING these foolish virgins (?) want is already available in the Episcopal Church. Including for some reason the tacky vestments (for many years ECUSA was a little loopy in spots, but their good taste was unquestioned. Something has happened.)
    Why do they insist in staying with a church which is, to their lights, patriarchal, unjust, undemocratic, and all that other stuff?

  21. ipadre says:

    Time to repent! A few more years and that walker will be turn into a box.

  22. benedetta says:

    Just to say that not every single thing that came out of the 70s was horrible, a little music for you as you make your way through the convention floor, attend breakout sessions, visit vendors and await the arrival of the giant puppet head clerics:

    (Please ignore the certifiably ugly clothing and hairstyles)


  23. Goldfinch says:

    I needed a good laugh! That is too funny.

  24. APX says:

    Kung, who could not attend in person because of health reasons, was applauded by the audience, a mostly elderly crowd disappointed at what they see as the church’s rightward turn.

    ROFL!!! I’m on my break at work and one of my co-workers had to come see what’s so funny.

    I went to a geriatric Mass once…umm yeah. Honestly, I wasn’t sure that comment was a joke or the real thing at first.

    I was at the ordination of two fine young men last night. Words cannot describe how happy I am for out diocese.

  25. medievalist says:

    Fr Z live blogging the ACC…portentous! Somewhere THE VORTEX is spinning out of control.

  26. benedetta says:

    I hope your credentials are readily displayed Fr Z. That volunteer brandishing the water bottle looks rather menacing.

    I must say I am rather cheered by your audacity. I really love a good protest of a protest organized by a bunch of old fuddy duddies. God bless them everyone even the Sister Joan C. Happy trails.

  27. benedetta says:

    Also Fr. Z just wanted to point out to you that I think Pain Week is something separate completely from the American Catholic Council. I could be wrong.

    As you continue to meet with press and dignitaries and lay people to elucidate all of the Talking Points (see American Catholic Council website), if you do see Sr. Joan C. please give her my warmest regards (and as well for the Mr. Fax) and please let them know that the Talking Points are all still kicking around here at the retirement home. The kids aren’t into it but you know how young people are. The kids are alright.

  28. Golly, to think that I went by Cobo a few hours ago and forgot to drop into Kumbaya fest and mix with the extraordinary form of Anglican comphrehensiveness. Oh well, another waste of my day. I wonder if Bp. Gumby bear is heading up the wackos.

  29. gviele says:

    Anything from Call to Holiness?

  30. The Egyptian says:

    After reading that brochure all I can say is, End The Pain Week , indeed how prophetic. May the suffering be over soon, Oh Lord, please

  31. Tim Ferguson says:

    Bishop Gumbleton declined their request to participate – this group is even too far out for him.

  32. TKS says:

    Too bad one of those flash mob things couldn’t have happened. (a group of people who assemble suddenly in a public place, perform an unusual and sometimes seemingly pointless act for a brief time, then disperse, often for the purposes of entertainment and/or satire.) Maybe singing a Latin hymn. Probably too much for the old hearts…

  33. ipadre says:

    The pic of people in yellow vests. I s that Willie Nelson and band. Lol

  34. Mundabor says:

    “The Holy Spirit embodies the life force of the universe, the power of God, the animating energy present in all things and captured by none. On this great feast of Pentecost, the coming of the Spirit of God, I invite you to pray with me”

    Someone should introduce the lady to Christianity.


  35. MargaretC says:

    All of these people would be warmly welcomed in the Episcopal Church. So why are they still pretending to be Catholic???

  36. MargaretC says:

    Now, Father — Did you really just walk in to this Den of Elderly Lions in your blacks? Surely it would have been prudent to adopt some sort of disguise? Are you really the greeter in the cowboy boots and yellow vest?? That’s worthy of the old Mission Impossible show…

  37. Henry Edwards says:

    And just whose smiling face are we going to see behind the altar, facing versus populum of course, celebrating in the spirit of Vatican II that

    Premier of a new Pentecost Liturgy
    with Brass, Chorale and Dance

    No! Don’t tell us. It can’t be. Can it? Surely that priezt zwinging around the altar with a dance in his step iz not . . . . not himzelf!

    (Better not lapse into Latin, Father Z. Some of those aging hearts might not survive the shock.)

  38. EXCHIEF says:

    With a little planning we (OK some friends of mine and I) could have arrainged to capture their PA system and pipe in Gregorian Chant. They would not be able to stop it. I have visions of them running and screaming (OK they are too old to run)…make that hobbling and screaming out the exits never to return. YES!!

  39. Fr. Basil says:

    Fr. Z, what point were you trying to make by showing a walker being used?

  40. Jackie L says:

    From Al Kresta’s blog:

    About 1,000 in attendance tonight. By their own stats in the program:
    65% are women
    94% are Caucasian
    97% are over 45 years old
    63 % are over 65 years old
    75% attend Mass weekly
    3% accept all of the Church’s teachings
    90% say the ordination of women is “very” or “critically” important

    source: http://krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/2011/06/at-american-catholic-council.html

  41. cmm says:

    And peace be with you too, fellow Christians! Isn’t this a good time to reflect on tomorrow’s reading as we hear about those ACC participants who are so different from the people commenting here:

    “There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;
    there are different forms of service but the same Lord;
    there are different workings but the same God
    who produces all of them in everyone.
    To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit
    is given for some benefit.”

  42. Mundabor says:

    After the conclusion of the conference, a great bonfire of incontinence pads will take place outside of the Cobo Center in protest against the Vatican’s oppression of wymyn.


  43. Mundabor says:

    “3% accept all of the Church’s teachings”

    They are the conservative bloggers… ;)


  44. Rich says:

    The line in Sister Joan Chittister’s prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to pray with her reflects the liberal mindset toward the liturgy, whereby they think the people are the movers and the shakers of what happens in the liturgy, and not God. It’s the Holy Spirit who invites us to pray with Him, not vice versa.

  45. Hope you got a chance to go to King Books. That place would cheer anyone up.

  46. Banjo pickin girl says:

    Fr. Basil, Most of the extreme lefty wingy Catholics tend to be older folks (even older than I, I only use a crutch nowadays), whose formation occurred in the 1960’s or -70’s. The pic is not about being disabled or old per se.

    I looked at that CORPUS group’s web site at pictures of a convention they had and I would have been the youngest one there by far (I am middle-aged).

    I do like the yellow safety vests, it’s as if they’re saying, warning, warning, stay away from us.

    Danger, Will Robinson, Danger. Oh, I really dated myself now, Robby.

  47. EXCHIEF says:

    Fr Basil

    I think the 4th statistic down on Jackie’s list answers your question. I would add, with no Christian Charity, that those who are not feeble bodied are at the very least feeble minded.

  48. One of the bullet points on Page 2 of the pdf that Fr. Z linked refers to “Enculturation”.

    Is this just a typo, or do they deliberately intend to contrast it to “inculturation”?

    It seems “enculturation” refers to changing the Church to make it more like the world, whereas “inculturation” seems to mean changing the world to make it more like the Church.

  49. wanda says:

    Run, Fr. Z., run!

  50. Don’t worry. I’m safe.

    I had some interesting encounters.

  51. benedetta says:

    TKS, Count me in on that plan for next year. That is if there is one (a next year) for the Council convention…

    I wonder what the Participative Gathering Hymn was? When they opened with the Hans Kung beaming in on the jumbotrons, no one was taken aback by the unseemly excess of male and hierarchical clericalism display that presented?

    And who authored the Motifs of the Spirit of Vatican II? Let me guess it was a committee. Shouldn’t they have at least held the Motifs up for a vote and ratification after open debate on the convention floor? Why all the hush hush, the secrecy, shouldn’t the process be open and transparent…

    And that’s some vast space there unoccupied on the convention floor, Fr. Z. A C-130 could takeoff from that.

    Well it is great to see that you have re-emerged safely after your subterranean expedition, Fr. Z. I was beginning to worry that someone would call the temple police…oh, that’s right, you are the temple police…never mind…

  52. Ever notice how all those pathetic…er..uh…”prophetic” women look alike? Every parish I have ever visited that was liberal, no matter what state I was in, has the same female running around the Church greeting folks and making conversation. They are “supposed” to be nuns in habits but they are “nuns” in suit looking garb. They all look like the people on that book cover.

  53. AnAmericanMother says:

    Wow, Father, you are BRAVE! (were you the only one there in clericals? Maybe I should ask, the only male person there in clericals?)
    Did anything really noteworthy happen (i.e. did anybody spit pea soup or have their head turn right around like a hoot owl?)
    It’s not so much that they are different or have different “gifts”, as that they keep trying to force their “gifts” on a church that has already politely said, “thanks, but no thanks.” That’s obnoxious, and they can expect some negative feedback.

  54. Banjo pickin girl says:

    Hey, Mundabor, they’re not the only ones with poise! har har. Oh, go away, bpg…

  55. contrarian says:

    “I had some interesting encounters.”
    Stories! We want stories!

    I gotta admit. As much as this is probably wrong, I can’t wait to see whatever puppet train wreck worship services they upload on Youtube during these coming days.

  56. benedetta says:

    I just realized, there is a typo on the ACC program listing the various “Motifs”. They left out the Motif of: Subversion. Please make them aware of it Fr. Z…

  57. Yes, Father, tell us stories!

  58. TNCath says:

    This is hilarious! Where next? The LCWR conference in August in New Orleans? Now THAT would be a hoot! I’m sure the Sisters would love to see you, because, as all of us know, in the words of Marty Haugen, “All are welcome, all are welcome, all are welcome IN THIS PLACE!”

  59. benedetta says:

    It is always nice to see, up close and in color, where the local powers that be go to get all the “great ideas”. That led to widespread, abandonment of the practice of the faith, the closure of parishes and schools. After all this time without so much of a hint of what the Bishop of Rome is up to, all dissemination of Popery essentially prohibited, and by the reigning Catholics, it cannot be laid at the feet of the Vatican now can it. No one here has paid the slightest attention to Rome in decades. Funny that Hans Kung and the rest seem fixated with Rome and the Vatican whereas here, although yes, everyone loves the Kung and the McBrien and the Chittister, the Haugen, no one in power seems the least bit concerned about the Vatican it is simply as if the Vatican does not exist. Now they tell me that they actually do care about the Vatican. I wish they would make up their minds. Like while we’re young.

  60. EXCHIEF says:

    Fr Z attending this in clerical garb reminds me of the old Texas Ranger’s motto: one riot, one ranger

  61. TNCath: I have never been in New Orleans.

  62. EWTN Rocks says:


    Yes, I’ve heard it was fairly disastrous; however, if it’s any consolation, I think the individuals involved were well intentioned (i.e. they weren’t trying to force anything but trying to be helpful, and made obvious errors in judgment), and extremely sorry. However, given the mess that was created, criticism is well deserved. Perhaps they clearly heard the message now to go away.

  63. AnAmericanMother says:

    LOL! I can see the good father walking into the middle and counting (very quickly) – “1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10” like the proverbial Texas Ranger in the saloon, and all the folks bolting (or hobbling) out the swinging doors.
    One of our superior court judges (later a Supreme Court justice), before he got into the judging business, was a Texas Ranger and then an Industrial League baseball umpire in Alabama. He said the latter job was even tougher than being a Texas Ranger . . . .

  64. Vincenzo says:

    Fr. Z wrote:

    “It reminded me a lot of Obi-Wan Kenobi:
    “The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.”


    From Vincenzo!


    EVERYONE: Be sure to visit Vincenzo’s Pope Pius Clock site! A wall clock which has, instead of numbers, pictures of all twelve Popes Pius! Fr. Z endorsed!]

  65. jesusthroughmary says:

    We have successfully infiltrated Dr. Evil’s (read: Dr. Richard McBrien’s) secret lair. Well done, Agent Z.

    Did anyone recognize you?

  66. Rob Cartusciello says:

    3. Liturgical Renewal: the “New” pre-Vatican II Liturgy in your Future

    Vatican II was a marker moment in our Church because it invited the laity to full, conscious and active participation in the liturgy. Where do we stand? What can we do?

    Issues for dialogue:

    Vernacular language and responses to the New Roman Missal
    Liturgical space – how it can define the agenda
    Roles in the liturgical assembly

    If the above doesn’t prove “Save the Liturgy, Save the World”, I don’t know what does.

  67. jesusthroughmary says:

    AnAmericanMother –

    Unrelated to anything, but since we’re talking about Detroit and Supreme Court justices, did you know that Justice Byron White, who wrote the minority opinion in Roe vs. Wade, was the 1940 NFL rushing champion for the Detroit Lions, and the league’s highest paid player, before entering the Navy at the onset of WWII? After the war he decided to go to Yale Law School instead of returning to the NFL, and the rest is history.

  68. kat says:

    I love the picture of you outside Cobo. That is great. Enjoy Detroit, Father! Glad you made it out of there safely!

  69. AnAmericanMother says:


    Yes, I believe that was where he picked up his nickname – “Whizzer” White.

  70. APX says:

    I third the motion for stories of these “interesting encounters.”

    I’m curious about what was said in the breakout session about us “younger generation.”
    From their web site
    “The younger generation will need to carry forward […] and the passion and zeal for an inclusive church. Where is this generation? How do we engage them? What are they passionate about?

    I would have loved to be there to tell them, but their convention was too exclusive for young folk such as myself with it’s three digit price tag.

    Oh man, the more I read the discriptions of these breakout session, the more of an idea I get about how whacked out this convention must have been. I applaud your courage to attend such an event.

  71. David2 says:

    I think, emm, that if this conference had an appropriate motto, it would be “non serviam”. Not by any stretch of the imagination can such a spirit of disobedience be non-blasphemously attributed to God.

  72. afanco says:

    Will you be at a Solemn High tomorrow before the “participative” liturgy at ACC?

  73. Charivari Rob says:

    Okay, I give up. Did you just photoshop yourself in (it does look a little like your vortex pose) – or – did the Archbishop bring you in as an out-of-town hired gun, scouting out the situation while keeping his own flock “safe”?

    You’ve never been to New Orleans? Oh, Father – what you have missed!

  74. Rosevean says:

    Re. Joan Chittister’s prayer intro, I can’t believe nobody has made the duct tape joke?

    Like the Force, it has a dark side, a light side and it binds the universe together…

  75. Fr. Perrone’s column for this week addresses the problem with dissent. He doesn’t mince words, saying, “Dissent almost always involves, ‘below the belt’ issues.”

  76. Rich says:

    Fr. Z., I would be delighted in hearing about some of your “interesting encounters”. Upon seeing the pictures of the volunteers, I wondered what the reaction of people like these would be to seeing a priest dressed like a priest.

  77. Glen M says:

    Let’s keep the participants in our prayers today. If they go ahead with their liturgy there could be serious consequences, especially for any priests. Remember our enemy is not the misguided soul, but the Trickster who clouds their judgement.

  78. robtbrown says:

    I noticed that Matthew Fox will be the keynote speaker. He was once a Catholic priest, a Dominican, but left to devote his time exclusively to Pantheism. He replaced Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, another member of the Massachusetts clan known to confuse liberal politics with Catholicism.

  79. robtbrown says:

    cmm says:

    And peace be with you too, fellow Christians! Isn’t this a good time to reflect on tomorrow’s reading as we hear about those ACC participants who are so different from the people commenting here:

    “There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;
    there are different forms of service but the same Lord;
    there are different workings but the same God
    who produces all of them in everyone.
    To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit
    is given for some benefit.”

    None of the spiritual gifts can contradict each other. And so if one person embraces women’s “ordination” and the Church does not, both cannot be said to be of the same spirit . . . the same Lord . . . the same God.

  80. kmtierney says:

    Must my hometown be shamed by these photos? :)

    Hopefully people will go to St. Jahosphat or Assumption Grotto this weekend to make reparation. better yet, invite some of the old hippies there for lolz.

  81. kmtierney says:

    @ kat says:

    Also if you are in the area, Astoria’s Pastry Shop, right across the street from Greektown. Best baked goods downtown.

  82. GTW says:

    Great comments in this thread. That group of aging dissident hippies have earned their disrespect. That ACC event reminds me more of a ’50s grade “B” horror flick convention. They are a living parody of the so-called “spirit of Vatican II”.

  83. benedetta says:

    cmm, Thank you for that and it is a beautiful epistle from St. Paul isn’t it. When it comes to the event of Pentecost, of course, one must first recognize and believe in the fact of the Resurrection. Because it was the fully Resurrected and Risen Lord which breathed the Holy Spirit St. Paul references in his epistle. (I guess that poor teen in Canada and her friends will be out of luck if they fully were to ascribe to what the ACC and so many other empowered leaders in different places are teaching?) St. Paul has so many excellent things to say on discernment doesn’t he.

    If you would like to discuss St. Paul’s words I am most ready to do it now. Got to take the opportunity when it comes. It comes so rarely. So rarely would someone like me with whatever meager gifts be permitted to be a part of such a discussion. So thanks for acknowledging that there are many gifts from the one Spirit, from God our Father. I would very much like to discuss this. After many decades of empowered “Catholic” leaders teaching and dictating the very things this sort of odd ACC is into, we are now able to take a look at the effects and ascertain whether it did come from the Holy Spirit. Or if it is something else at work. Because it is not as if the thought, for, for instance (and this is just one small sampling of the overall dogma) of the empowering politicians to teach the prochoice by Catholic theologians just recently came, spontaneously as if this is 1974. But assuming that even then, incredibly and straining reason as it is to assume it, that someone filled with spiritual gifts could advocate for such a political result with good intentions, fine. But now after all that has happened, we can no longer discount the Spirit at work in the unborn which would of course wish for, Life. Taking into account their spiritual gifts I cannot now say that these Catholics who advocated for and still advocate that prochoice is cool and still be a Catholic were following the same Spirit of God. They feel free to say that they are and were and I also a child of God though no one permits me here to speak am saying that the Spirit is not that. Obviously we disagree.

    And when there is a conflict the eternal truths and sources of the faith are what helps to clarify whether these results are or are not inspired by the Spirit.

    Is it like people here where I am have been given, a choice in the matter, engaging, their spirits, to be able to say, they agree or not, to all that is taught (See, ACC website linked above as just a small taste)? That they of their own free will with fully formed conscience made a choice? No it was dictated by leaders and they were told to accept it, or else. That is not a free choice, far from it. And witness after witness after witness to the faith will tell you that when they eventually “stumbled upon” the fulness of the faith that was hidden from them by the leaders (decades), that irresistibly, struggle and all, even with doubt, even with certain political conundrum and worry, even with and despite all that, in their hearts desire, the fulness of the faith and not the “myth” and minimized version that has been forced upon them. Even if acceptance of the fulness then requires certain steps made in response that inevitably involve, persecution, ridicule, ostracization, painful conversion. It is that powerful. Of course the martyrs will tell you, if they could speak to us.

    Do you want to be connected up to a spirit of doubt, of bitterness and myth? Or do you want to go with God, so much as possible, without interference and orchestration by human powers? I admit, the way of the Church has been hidden, it has been ridiculed, ripped to shreds, by people professing to actually be Catholics. The much despised Vatican has tirelessly proposed with great patience the fulness, to all people in all seasons. Though some will pretend it is not happening, or does not matter, really in fact does not matter or change the reality. No one came in where I am to bash people and leaders and force them to the fulness though I am sure good people have mourned what is happening. People are quite free to look into the sources themselves. The main source being Jesus, the Real Presence. That spiritual and empowered leaders refuse or are unwilling to connect people up to that more and more is unsurprising in light of what the ACC still demands even though conversion is always possible and celebrated. It takes some chasing down but that is all a part of the adventure is it not.

  84. Christo et Ecclesiae says:

    lol Father I love that picture of you at the end

  85. Joseph-Mary says:

    The pictures! LOL!

    They say it all.

  86. Mundabor says:

    Can’t wait for the “interesting encounters” now.

    I assume that some where of the third type as Planet Earth seems, from the perspective of ACC, a rather remote place.


  87. digdigby says:

    “The 20th century cult of youth culminates in a cruel curse: while the aging process cannot be stopped, the aging human being is not allowed to mature and is condemned, until his life’s end, to play the long-dead games of youth.”
    – Martin Mosebach “The Heresy of Formlessness: The Roman Liturgy & Its Enemy”

  88. benedetta says:

    I don’t think one could actually find a banner big enough to include all of the “Prophetic Women in Ministry”. Maybe they should have just gone with an icon of Our Lady. That would nicely convey the realities. But then they do not seem that concerned with reality.

  89. catholicmidwest says:

    This is just another convention. ACC is an umbrella organization for VOTF, CTA, CORPUS and about 27 or so other similar groups. I’m sure they all have conventions, and the same people show up and they eat the same things and say the same things every time they meet, which makes me wonder about their attention spans, but I digress.

    I’m pretty sure that there are a million other conventions, ie. Pain Week, that are every bit as large and probably more stimulating. Hotels make a business of this day after day, week after week. There’s a lot of money in it. I have a few favorite ones I go to, however mine tend to be more interesting than I expect this one was. And just about as well publicized. LOL. I’ll bet you’ve never heard of them unless you happen to be part of their target market.

  90. benedetta says:

    Vincezo, those are some startling graphic motifs you put together there. Also I do like the clocks.

  91. stpetric says:

    Great to see you at Assumption Grotto this morning! I hope it was restorative for you after your brush with the ACC yesterday…

  92. Northern Ox says:

    “The banality! The banality!”

    Actually, the Charles Marlow reference gives me a new take on the whole giant puppet thing. Maybe they represent a “papier-mache Mephistopheles.”

  93. Irene says:

    I appreciate the humorous remarks, but at the same time am fighting back tears. My own blood sister belongs to the “Magisterium of Nuns”. Please pray for all of them.

    Regarding the biological solution, it won’t work everywhere. At a nearby Novus Ordo parish, the 30-something pastor is more liberal than the 60-something pastor he replaced.

  94. Banjo pickin girl says:

    i looked up the pain week.org website and would have been more interested on a report on that! interesting seminars like, when does acute pain become chronic, and the use of acetominophen in chronic pain management. interesting stuff to us with pain.

    i hope Fr. Z can find comestibles (sp?) to ease his pain from the convention that he attended! I mean something buzzier/fizzier than naproxen gelcaps!

  95. catholicmidwest says:

    Agree, Irene.

    The real picture is much more complicated than a catch-phrase like “the biological solution.” The thing that’s interesting is that if you look at things like the Pew Report, you see a much more complete picture of what’s going on. According to Pew’s US Religious Landscape Survey, 31.4% of those raised Catholic have left, including many of the younger members. Yet, the percentage of the population that professes to be Catholic, although not growing, has not had a net change in decades. This is because the spots left empty by those leaving have been filled with converts and immigrants, emphasis on immigrants. Conclusion: Native young people who dissent don’t go to silly conventions; rather, they just leave. This is why you don’t see them in the ACC. They’re not stupid enough to waste their time, and they’re practical enough not to pay dues to the antithesis of something they’ve simply discarded as not useful to them.

    The answer to this, however, is not any of the frolics of the ACC et al. The answer is that we have to get serious about living the Christian life so that the young can see it, admire it and emulate it. Catholics are generally kind of lousy about that, if truth be told, and that is the core of our real problem which is causing nearly 1/3 of our own to simply walk off year after year.

  96. catholicmidwest says:

    Fr. Z,

    The funniest convention I ever walked through was not one I was registered at, but one down the road from my own. It was in Pittsburgh a few years back. We just followed the 6-foot-tall squirrel back to his convention and Voila: Anthrocon.

    Even funnier than the critter suits was the incomprehensibility of the group’s purpose and scope, which we could not seem to get a handle on, even at their own convention. We asked and asked and they couldn’t seem to convey it to us (and the convention I came from wasn’t exactly filled with lightweights so…..). Apparently the idea was just to go someplace, make like a forest creature and have fun, sort of. OK then. Expensive but if that’s what it takes, apparently that’s what it takes. I went back to my own convention, laughing.

    Gee, funny how this ACC convention reminds me of that experience, huh? :D The ACC is just another convention. But not a very good one, I think. Bad puppets aren’t near as much fun as 6-foot squirrels.

  97. amenamen says:

    Banjo pickin girl. Yes. The painweek.org website may have produced the best spiritual reading for the the Cobo Center crowds. I truly hope some of the ACC (AAACCCK!) members found time to sit in on the PainWeek sessions, in order to find true relief from their pains and lamentations.

    Just look at the Painweek conference ad: it asks, “Why attend?” (For many reasons, but first of all, look how much cheaper it is than the one down the hall, only $49). http://www.painweek.org/painweekend/

    Strangely relevant topics are raised for all Catholics. Are they talking about “pain conditions” or about the liturgy?

    “An aging population and radical expansion … will converge to keep pain in the forefront …”

    By participating in a PAINWeekEnd conference, you will:
    •IMPROVE your ability to assess, diagnose, treat, and manage chronic pain conditions
    •PREPARE for the emerging world of medication risk evaluation and mitigation, and your responsibilities as a practitioner
    •ENHANCE the ongoing therapeutic relationship with your patients and drive better long-term outcomes

    After completing this activity, participants should be better able to:
    •Describe initial and ongoing pain assessment tools
    •Recognize the timeframe for when pain is considered chronic
    •Differentiate between nociceptive and neuropathic pain conditions
    [I am not sure. Maybe these are terms from the Byzantine liturgy?]
    •Describe chronic pain, episodic pain, and breakthrough pain
    •Compare analgesic and adjuvant therapies
    •Employ guideline-related strategies to manage comorbidities
    [Probably something they use in papal masses? Choir directors? Big puppets?]
    •Explain the medical, legal, and regulatory issues associated with clinical pain management
    •Apply basic strategies for effective treatment plans that include assessment, documentation, and continuous evaluation
    •Identify knowledge gaps among pain practitioners
    •Identify methods for effectively providing patients information, explanations, and directions in order to promote patient adherence
    •Identify appropriate tools for referring patients to pain specialists as needed

    It seems providential that the pain doctors were there when they were most needed.

  98. robtbrown says:

    Fr Z says,
    I have never been in New Orleans.

    NB: The turtle soup and bread pudding souffle at Commander’s Palace.


  99. Banjo pickin girl says:

    Irene, I too have seen young priests who are like the older ones in their liberalism and lack of understanding of the faith.

  100. SK Bill says:

    I was ready for supper until I read this and the Life Imitates Art piece.

    Now I just want to have a beer and a nice lie down.

    However, seeing the pic of the helpers reminded me that I really really need to get a haircut. I’m the same age as these people, and I do NOT want to be mistakenly identified as one of them.

  101. SK Bill says:

    By the way, part of my business requires me to attend conferences. Looking at that photo of the huge empty space with a few people in it, I can safely say there is NO WAY there are 1000 people there. There *might* be 500, but that would be stretching it.

  102. SCCatholic says:

    OK, jumping in here for those who are unregistered or not inclined to comment. What, exactly, is the purpose of mocking this conference and the attendees? What is it supposed to accomplish? It does nothing to lead to their conversion of heart. Rather it provides an example of and a forum for lack of Christian charity. However dissident their beliefs, they are our brothers and sisters in Christ by virtue of their baptism. Given their age, they are our elder brothers and sisters and should be given more respect.

    On a related note I’m asking you, Fr Z, and your commenters to PLEASE stop using the phrase “biological solution”. The fact that faithful Catholics are eagerly awaiting the retirement and/or death of anyone is scandalous and offensive to many people who read this blog. I’ve read many blog posts in recent months on this subject. These bloggers are faithful Catholics who, like me, visit here because they are interested in traditional aspects of our faith. However, reading this phrase in posts or comments is offensive and hurts people. So please let use of the phrase “die out”.

  103. benedetta says:

    SCCatholic, Actually I do already pray for them and I wish that God blesses them. Others have expressed the same while also expressing the horror at not just “dissident beliefs” but really destructive and hateful things (let’s talk about the lack of Christian charity, seriously) done towards other Christians in the name of various bitter gripes dressed up in so many ways. What you are seeing here is exasperation combined with humor which is such a relief I cannot tell you. We all know that denying there is a problem will not be healthy for anyone. Look, plenty of us here when all of this stuff first originated for sure went the way of Christian charity, we all have kept our mouths shut, for decades, we have all been quite patient, we have all been told to sit down and shut up and respect and were shamed and ridiculed into it. We got that part. And we all listened and waited for the grand dialogue that never happened. So now at this point after a lot of good Christians have been totally damaged, and attacked, by these “really nice folks who happen to be dissidents” well a little bit of humor is not going to hurt anything. And on this blog, you can see, there are priest who read this garbage that they promote after it has been shown to be so destructive and the priests here are saying “repent”! They are not saying, well, I’m ok, you’re ok. No they are doing what priests sometimes need to do and you know what we all need to take a good hard look at things from time to time and take stock. Many of us have good people in our lives who help us to stay on the path when we slip up. These attendees certainly might read this blog and say, “you know what, that is correct. I mistakenly thought the Roe v Wade would be a good thing and that we could have a lot of it even in the Church! But look at what has happened…”A lot of people revert, convert, struggle and it is a fact of the Christian life and must happen if we are to get anywhere. Why do you think people read this blog? To read up on current events? To ponder “traditional aspects” (whatever that means). Every person here is here because they are trying as best they can to live a Christian life, and if you haven’t noticed, the culture of death is all around, prowling like a lion. We all need support and help with this, real support, not just an intellectual exercise and a debate.

    As to the biological solution I don’t use this phrase but when I hear of it I don’t think of “old people dying out” which is what you seem to be concerned with. Instead I think of all of the great, vibrant, faith filled young people (from all over the world) ready to step out in faith. Even amidst a culture charged with the death. The solution is precisely in the great hope they offer and extend, every day, living witnesses to the truth and a beautiful life, their immense trust. Like a world youth day, but, times, one hundred thousand again and again and including all of the young people who for one reasons or another could not or did not make the journey. Many of us have elderly people in our lives who have provided the very foundations for joy but in their simplicity and through adversities did not tempt us to kill the life within, or told us that the Resurrection was just a myth or all of this other professional dissident foolishness. If you travel to Detroit to attend a convention which is all about discouragement and heaping shame and ridicule upon our Church, I would say that yes, you should look into things a little more, seek clarification of thought, and not exhaust the Church with pleas for Christian charity after organizing hatred against her. There will be people to help them and I pray they get connected up in this regard.

  104. SemiSpook says:

    Wow, I am truly frightened by this. Sort of what drove me to seek out what authentic Tradition is. Good to see that you made it out in one piece.

    I’m sort of disappointed that you didn’t use the standard “Do Not Attempt This At Home…” caveat. Would have added a little more oomph. :-)

  105. SonofMonica says:

    SCCatholic: death aside, how is looking forward to someone’s retirement scandalous? We aren’t required in the name of charity or Catholicism to appreciate, celebrate or even tolerate what we deem to be deceitful leadership and false prophets. In fact, true charity and the True Faith should compel us to accept neither. Creation is good. As an NFP user, i find that biology is always on the side of faithful Catholics. I am thankful for the solution it provides. What use is God’s Spirit if not for renewing the face of the Earth?

  106. ROFL! Really cracked me up big time!

  107. benedetta says:

    SCCatholic, it is not as though a few dissidents wandering around celebrate these things. Some dioceses actually lead with all of this. I quite realize that in some places in the U.S., “orthodox” and “traditionalists” have, not just, a Latin Mass here or there, but there are fully fledged, parishes. And other things as well. But in certain places when you do not observe this the facts are simply that it is not because good people have not attempted it but it lacked momentum, funds, organization, or the views were unpopular for all of the old stereotyped reasons. No, in some places not only is there no leadership of “live and let live” but it has been prohibited. Both, the traditional and the orthodox, without much distinction really. So whether we like it or not we are and have been placed in the same boat. If you have the privilege of belonging to a traditionalist parish and all that goes along with it to support your journey, then maybe one way to think of it is to widen one’s prayers to include, traditionalists, orthodox, fallen away Catholics, and dissidents. Not everyone has the benefit of being able to be rooted in a community and it is not that they have only themselves to blame, in fact, for politely making needs known it is not just that the answer is no but there is payback (I will have to be careful here as it all still goes on).

    I do agree that this convention is about a very small collection of dissidents, in attendance. But where leadership has served this up (The account of what happened in Canada…things such as that, routinely and with younger children. On another traditionalist blog families recounting moving here from traditionalist or orthodox parishes from all over the country to be startled to not be able to find even one parish for children) as a beat down to anyone who even thinks about something different, one cannot say that locally Catholics have ever even considered anything different, have ever really been given a choice in the matter. So their free will has been interfered with as well. But the leaders here routinely (routinely) quote chapter and verse from the Kung, the McBrien, the Chittister, the Matthew Fox, not just, offering an idea in a debate on equal playing field, but it is triumphalist, and it is forced, to the exclusion of all else. I do not exaggerate. I mean, all else. I do not know how else to say it. Everything else.

    Because people have been shamed into feeling that if they question any of that one iota they must be condemned as “pre Vatican II” and you can readily find numerous public examples of this in mainstream published media (aside from numerous accounts in addition I know of) people here feel by and large quite satisfied and enlightened about their spirituality which has taught them this “theology of baptism” that says it is not necessary to attend Mass. It is not because they have checked out different types of Masses, and chosen the liturgical abuse. It is not because they have ever really heard of JPII let alone any Pope predating Pope John XXIII. Priests here actively tell people not to watch EWTN, and do not know what is being broadcast at all on EWTN, not because they want people to come more often to the parish but because they do not want them thinking twice that maybe they should go. And heaven forbid people get wind of secular reports that people of all ages who regularly attend and participate in their faith (whatever the faith) are healthier.

    All of us in this time when nothing is taken for granted are able to trace back in time to the wake up call we received, pretty much directly. Since people by and large do not understand or believe that the sacraments are exactly what they say and exactly how the Church says, to even have a conversation about what Chittister or McBrien think, I think, a little wake up call after the reign of dissident practice for generations, by way of humor with a few photos and of course the text, to help people to finally have a choice. To ask, do you sincerely wish to follow? Of your own free will? These particular ideas. And that may actually lead to the dialogue, and one hopes it will not be with any one of us but with God. I do pray for this and I ask you in your charity to pray for us, up north and in other places around the world and for the leadership especially. Why do you think some of us are so aware of something happening halfway across the world in an Australian diocese? They too are our brothers and sisters in the Lord. And they too did not seem to choose what befell, with full knowledge, consent, free will. I recognize that in other parts of the world, dissidents and traditionalists each have their own little corners of the world of preference and that leadership has a live and let live attitude and perhaps does not really actively support one or the other. And other variations as well. But that would be a great step in the right direction where I am. What we have here are certain ghettos and constant fear of the authorities. Truly. This post to some of us is not just about poking fun at an old guy who dresses like Willie Nelson. Who would have the time if it was that and only that at stake, and one need not even go to the internet for that. No one here has ever attended, in organized way, a World Youth Day. Perhaps one or two families fund and do it alone once in a great while. But it is not just, we don’t have our youth attend but that with some pretty uncharitable things said about the Pope as well. For many many years. Now the local authorities will pretend in so many ways that it doesn’t happen. Or they might show a photo to make you think it is just a big rock concert and nothing more (which would be somewhat kinder than other things said, by leaders). They will feature various things young people are doing (the twister and the like for the confirmandi). But will they ever run a series of photos of the ACC? No but they will actively quote and implement all that the ACC stands for, and more. So what Fr. Z is doing here is something along the lines of, Radio Free Europe…just to break through the information embargo a little bit. So we have some news for a change about what the outside world is up to…

    I don’t fault the attendees but you are right to question it in charity. I certainly comprehend well how people get to where they are right now. But there are ways forward, through. It’s like that quote from Creative Minority Report, M. Archbold — who needs a faith that views us as a collection of opinions, ideas, votes, clothing styles, and “motifs” as this ACC program says it is all about, and tells us that is what matters and should be celebrated so much as possible? Sometimes even for dissident Catholics, even for orthodox Catholics, for whomever, we “get by with a little help from our friends” (to quote the British Invasion which so influenced a generation of people, more than faith or anything else it seems). We are calling them out not because we want them to stay right there. Even though there has been real destruction, we are happy to call them home, when it comes to faith, the door is always welcome, but as it is for all of us sometimes we do have to make changes first and sometimes we can only do this by help from others to recognize it in the first place and cannot any longer notice it on our own. They are right when they sing “all are welcome” with the Haugen. All are welcome in the Catholic Church. Obviously we disagree about the singing of the Haugen, well, just about every single week at every single NO offered around the area, like I said, to the exclusion of, all else. I will pray that several show up very soon at your traditionalist parish (not to protest, mind you, to pray with you). We all have much more in common than we could imagine. If you have a great situation going, please do share it. And only prayer there will help the difficult situations in other places.

  108. JohnE says:

    I’m sure you were trying to show that they didn’t fill up the conference room with that second-to-last picture. Ha. Ha. What you fail to understand is that the liturgical disco floor had been in the plans for almost a year leading up to the conference.

    I second Pizza Papoulis. I lived in Southfield for a few months many years ago.

  109. robtbrown says:


    I think you’re confusing Charity with spiritual sloth, which pretends to be Charity but causes someone to recoil at whatever does not seem pleasant. Such sloth can correctly consider the importance of Baptism–but would be sadly delinquent in considering the importance of the Truth of Church teaching.

    If these Detroit attendees favor the ordination of women and abortion on demand, then they set themselves against the Church, and are Her enemies. And Baptism would make them more destructive than less. And so there is nothing wrong with desiring the biological solution (Psalm 68): Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

  110. irishgirl says:

    Oh, my gosh, Father Z-how did you get out of there alive? And in your clericals, no less!
    Ha, Vincenzo! Nice to see that he’s back! That picture is hilarious!

  111. irishgirl says:

    And yes, we want to hear some stories, Father!
    We want to hear how you escaped from the ‘aged lions den’!
    Ooo boy-I wonder if Michael Voris heard about this so-called ‘Council’? I’m going to hear him speak later this week! And if he has heard about it, I’m sure that he’ll sling some zingers on his site!

  112. PostCatholic says:

    I don’t know what the point of showing someone using a rollator (rolling walker) is, but my wife has used one since she was 36. Hard to tell if the user is elderly from the picture. I suppose that’s what we’re intended to presume.

  113. SCCatholic says:

    Thanks to those who responded. Apparently I gave some people the impression that I want us to be nice and not hurt people’s feeling at the expense of fidelity to the truth – the whole “I’m OK, you’re OK” attitude. Not my intention or my belief. I wasn’t saying that error should not be exposed or that sinners should not be admonished and be called to repentance. The truth cannot be comprised. At the same time, however, the truth needs to be spoken in love. I’m not claiming perfection in this area; I have to remind myself of it quite often.

    I had also wanted to remind people that those who come to this blog form opinions about Fr Z, the Catholic Church, the traditionalist crowd, the TLM, etc. not just from his posts but also from our comments. If our contributions help form good opinions or correct misinformed ones, then that’s a good thing. If, however, we contribute to or directly cause bad opinions, then perhaps we need to self-edit.

    I don’t want to hijack Father’s combox further. If anyone wants to continue the discussion, feel free to email me: b2bcatholic @ gmail . com (remove the spaces).

  114. JohnE says:

    I think a public event such as this is one of the few times where dissenters actually DO wear clericals.

    I did see something about this on the Vortex a few times. I could be mistaken though, because the event he talked about sounded like it was going to be much, much bigger.

  115. Kathy C says:

    I do wish they’d use reporters who know what’s going on. It’s news to me that the Pope expelled Matthew Fox.

  116. benedetta says:

    SCCatholic, The truth has been said, in love, for quite a long time now. And also the “shut up and self-edit” has also been done in reply to the proposals to the truth spoken with love, for at least thirty years. That does not make a conversation. This is a blog and these are comments. In daily life one can have a conversation with one’s neighbor. But this is about where the Church as a whole is going and whether these ideas as represented by this quite small group should direct things, and not just for the American part of the Church but the entire Church, worldwide. I just don’t think that children should be taught that nothing has happened in the Church since Vatican II or that what Pope Paul VI had to say, for example, was worthless. The Church is always proposing the truth with love, constantly. And it isn’t about comments or photos as it is not always a matter of convincing people, as if we are in control first and foremost. It is not on our terms that people come to conversion, reversion, whatever. We cooperate. Given the situation, the face of Christianity to unbelievers is not going to be accomplished through comments on a blog even when we are long winded or terse. The one whose blog it is and especially in this instance is able to do more than what a commenter would do. Some blogs seem to be able to engage in more in depth exchanges with one or more commenters towards the life of faith. And some do not. If people turn to a blog when considering the faith it will be a mostly intellectual exercise, somewhat limited, until such time as one can get to a beautiful, reverent Mass.

  117. The Biological Solution.


    well yes, in the end the biological solution takes care of everything and every one, including all who mock, and insult others, whether liberal or conservative.

    What comes off your keyboard will condemn you as surely as what comes out of your mouth.
    Everyone, including myself, will one day have to answer for everything we have written, or said.

  118. benedetta says:

    Puff, Your blog is kind of interesting.

    I know actually quite a few elderly believers and I do not mock them. But I do find hope in your prediction about “people who mock and insult others, liberal or conservative”. You said it.

  119. benedetta says:

    As I said before I don’t use that term but when I hear it I think of young people, that is biology! Young people, the face of our Church. Do they count for, nothing?

    Further, it is truly a little bit silly in our time in history to worry about ageism. Our society lives longer than any in the U.S.’s history and much, much longer than many others in other places in the world. That is a fact. If anyone is acquainted with the AARP even a little it is enough to know that politically this particular generation of elderly in the U.S. at least is empowered like none ever before. This generation sets the tone for the politics of the rest of the nation and other generations have very little to do but go along with the trends in marketing generated. Is it not some serious injustice that some people who have worked all their lives may never see what is promised in the form of social security when they are the same age? I find the notion that people in this age group are just poor dottering ones unable to speak up on their own behalf at odds with the reality. Not only is that not the case but the culture that really has nurtured the narcissism also seems unable to discuss with the younger generation coming after the benefits and the pitfalls of their experiences and adventures, as if there are no drawbacks. Is it total inability to recognize that another generation may choose, something different? And not just in terms of prolife but many issues besides where young people are stepping up to ask for something noble. If one generation was listened to in its time for what it was, why is the same generation seemingly unable to even acknowledge let alone permit to lead, a generation with its own experiences, own adventures, spirit and wisdom?

    It is fine if we do not employ the term “biological solution”. I don’t use it and don’t care either way. But why deny the realities. Should we blind ourselves to statistics, demographics, information about this particular conference? Maybe we ought to all post some photos of elderly who we know who love the Church, love the Holy Father, have great faith, and are much more interested in encouraging young people in pursuit of the life of faith instead of ripping the Church to shreds for the media to broadcast to the rest of the world. Fr. Z has done it often, asking us to pray for those he has known who have gone ahead in the life of faith or for others who are elderly who have remained loyal. If we really look with eyes of faith, this too presents a beautiful biological solution which cannot be quantified. If we think it is all about “death” and “the grave” we fail to believe in the communion of saints. We don’t know any person’s soul but even if not canonized of course God has raised up saints who are helping us right now, right this minute. Does God wish to condemn what comes off the keyboard? I think not. God did not come into the world so that we may perish.

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