QUAERITUR: Is the Sabbatine Privilege still in force?

From a reader:

Regarding the Sabbatine Privilege, it is my understanding that person may meet the requirements by reciting the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary or, if given permission by their priest, saying the Rosary.

My question is may a person also fulfill gain this privilege by daily recitation of Divine Office (which I recite) or must it be the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Since the Sabbatine privilege is no longer listed in the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, and since all indulgences from previous times are explicitly abrogated by the current Enchiridion, we can safely conclude that the Sabbatine privilege has also been abrogated.

Some of you scratching your heads and asking, “But Father! But Father! What’s the  Sabbatine privilege?”

In a nutshell:

The Sabbatine Privilege is a promise by our Blessed Mother that she would liberate from Purgatory, on the Saturday after their death, those souls who met the following conditions during their lives on earth. “Sabbatine” is an adjective deriving from Sábbato, the Latin word for Saturday.

For the conditions and a more complete explanation I recommend that you go HERE.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. AnnAsher says:

    Huh. When I was enrolled in the Brown Scapular two years ago by a wonderful Father’s of Mercy priest … The Savatine Privilage was stated. It’s also been included in the info with scapulars I have purchased. So … Interesting post! Of course the exercises in prayer and abstinence are good for me none the less … I’m a struggler with long term consistency I confess.

  2. C. says:

    Because the Sabbatine Privilege grants a fixed term of relief to the souls in Purgatory, it was never within the power of the Holy Father to grant himself. His authority extends only over the Church militant, not the Church suffering. Indulgences obtained by the authority of the Holy Father and “applied” to the souls in Purgatory are merely recommendations, with the exact amount of pain remitted left undetermined — a plenary indulgence earned on earth but applied to another soul in Purgatory does not necessary spring that soul completely.

    As such, because the Sabbatine Privilege is not an indulgence for the Church militant, I don’t believe it was the intent of Paul VI to abrogate it when he published the first Enchiridion in 1968.

  3. JonPatrick says:

    If the Sabbatine Privilege came from a private revelation to St. Simon Stock, it would seem that it would come under the category of a private revelation, similar to the privileges gained other devotions such as First Friday, the Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. A devotion that has been in use for about 700 years should not be dismissed so lightly. As a “lockstep sheep and papist throwback”, I intend to keep mine and the devotions that accompany it. My priest has given us permission to substitute the Rosary for the little office.

  4. Father K says:

    I agree with C. and JonPatrick, it was not an indulgence granted by the Pope but a privilege announced by Our Lady. It would not come under the reforms, abrogations of the current Enchiridion.

  5. dans0622 says:

    According to the old Catholic encyclopedia, this has nothing to do with St. Simon Stock but is based on what is considered to be an apocryphal Bull of John XXII. It has been approved by Popes over the centuries without reference to the supposed apparition to John XXII. So, the Pope could certainly eliminate the indulgence in the Enchiridion.

  6. Matt R says:

    It is my impression that the Carmelites have been banned from preaching about it, or promoting it along with the Brown Scapular, for centuries.

  7. Titus says:

    His authority extends only over the Church militant, not the Church suffering. Indulgences obtained by the authority of the Holy Father and “applied” to the souls in Purgatory are merely recommendations, with the exact amount of pain remitted left undetermined — a plenary indulgence earned on earth but applied to another soul in Purgatory does not necessary spring that soul completely.

    This cannot be the case. It is correct that the Church no longer quantifies partial indulgences in any way. The Church discontinued the quantification of indulgences because the system caused (and continues to cause) widespread confusion. But to say that it is impossible for it do so, either for the Church Militant or the Church Expectant (or Suffering) is balderdash: the Church did quantify indulgences for centuries. Christ did not say “what you bind on earth will be taken under consideration in heaven”; he said “what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”

  8. Dominicanes says:

    We won’t mention that our Lady gave the scapular to the Order of Preachers several years before!

  9. Elizabeth D says:

    There are different things meant by “Sabbatine privilege”; the original was an apocryphal (ie, false) papal bull; the Catholic Encyclopedia says “The name Sabbatine Privilege is derived from the apocryphal Bull ‘Sacratissimo uti culmine’ of John XXII, 3 March, 1322. In this Bull the pope is made to declare that the Mother of God appeared to him”. There is NO approval of the content of that “bull” in spite of its teachings still being propagated by “Traditionalists”. This is is not post Vat II revisionism, you can read about it in the Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm The familiar older version of the scapular devotion was defined in the time of St Teresa of Avila, after a real Papal Bull that corrected the errors associated with the false information and authorized what the Carmelites COULD teach about devotion to the Brown Scapular, which was a form by which laity affiliated themselves with the Order.

    Many people don’t realize the Church has a more recently approved form of the Scapular investiture (approved in 1996) and devotion approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, that is stated to completely supercede the older version, which I believe it says is abrogated (I don’t have it in front of me). It is available from the Carmelite publishing house ICS Publications. http://www.icspublications.org/bookstore/others/b_others13.html

    With the current form of the investiture, it is NOT supposed to be stated that the person is joining the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular unless they ARE actually joining a canonically established branch of that organization (the Carmelites have to establish the branches, you cannot just start one yourself. This is different from the Third Order or Secular Carmelites, but kinda like that). Dear priests, do not use the form that SAYS people are joining the Confraternity, because they simply ARE NOT joining the Confraternity, they are simply being invested with the Scapular, and that is reflected in the current version of the investiture.

    There are NO specific required daily prayers. Rather, you are required to practice Carmelite spirituality in some way, which at the minimum level means devotion to the Eucharist and to Our Lady. It is the Carmelite habit, it is consistent that someone who wears the Carmelite habit practices Carmelite spirituality. It is not a totally generic devotion to Our Lady.

    There are NO plenary indulgences associated with the Brown Scapular today, UNLESS one is actually a member of a canonical Confraternity group, in which case there are several such opportunities on various Carmelite feast days (this is described in the ecclesially approved “Catechesis and Ritual for the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel ” that you can get from ICS.

    Some people realllly don’t like that the devotion was changed. Because devotion to the Brown Scapular is devotion to the Carmelite habit and to Our Lady in her role as patroness of that Order, the Church has always held that the Carmelites have a right to define the form of the devotion. They revised it fairly recently, partly out of concerns that the devotion to the Carmelite habit has come to have practically or even absolutely nothing to do with Carmel or its spirituality for many devotees! It is lamentable that Fatima devotees continue to ignore the Church about this at a high rate. Never, ever, ever, ever have I seen any Fatima people promoting or referring to the Church’s current form of the devotion and blessing and investiture prayers. I met the head of the Blue Army one time and asked him innocently and sincerely curious to explain to me the relationship of Fatima devotion to Carmelite spirituality, but he said he doesn’t know anything about Carmelite spirituality. I think they see the Brown Scapular as a devotion to the Fatima apparition and are simply motivated by obedience to that, which is not really how the Church sees it, though I understand Sr Lucia saw Our Lady with a rosary and a scapular, which may have led her to become a Carmelite. It is the habit of that order. Everyone should be devoted to Our Lady and understand themselves as her children well loved by her; not everyone has to be a Carmelite or affiliate themselves with them.

  10. Father P says:


    And to the Norbertines (whose founder was the first to promote the idea of a “Third Order” and a devotional scapular) and some others even before the Dominicans.

    Our Lady, “seamstress of the Middle Ages”, Pray for us. :)

  11. UncleBlobb says:

    More purgatory then, I guess.

  12. cpaulitz says:

    This is a privilege from Our Lady, not His Holiness. Our Lady delivers on what she promises, and cannot be trumped.

    [I would take care not to pit Our Lord against His and our Blessed Mother. Christ gave His authority to the Church in matters of sacraments and indulgences. The Church determines which prayers and practices obtain indulgences. That said, pious practices remain worthy, whether they have indulgences or not.]

  13. Suburbanbanshee says:

    If people aren’t in an area with Carmelites, the Brown Scapular isn’t likely to have any connection with Carmelites in their mind. We heard about it from Franciscans, so I assumed as a kid that it was brown because Franciscans wore brown.

    (I never even heard that St. Simon Stock was a Carmelite until adulthood, because he’s not a saint who’s covered in saint books for kids. In college, I actually had the impression that he was a totally legendary guy with no historical evidence for his existence, even.)

  14. Bob B. says:

    I loved talking about the Sabbatine Privilege with my junior high students – I would teach about Purgatory first and then follow with the Brown Scapular. Most of the students knew nothing about these, nor what religious orders are, papal bulls, etc. There is always so much to do and so little time, made worse by the fact that the parents don’t know much about these subjects, as well.

  15. MarylandBill says:

    Whether the sabbatine privilege is still in force, indeed whether those specific promises ever came from our Lady or not, it seems to me that the practices recommended to obtain the privilege are ones that will benefit our souls. I wear a scapular because it reminds me that I belong to God and have an obligation to live according to his will. And more prayer is something most of us need in our lives. If I pray the rosary daily (or the little office, or the full office) I am not sure I will get out of purgatory the following Saturday after my Death, but I bet my need for redemptive suffering will be greatly lessened.

  16. JARay says:

    There are some wonderful comments above. A friend of mine has great difficulty in accepting that the Church can actually grant any indulgences. The main nub of his objection is that it is Jesus who decides who goes to purgatory and for how long. This decision is made when we face Jesus after our death. Purgatory is about making us fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. No one who is imperfect can enter heaven because they will then be united with the perfection of God Himself. Hence nothing which is imperfect can be united with perfection since the imperfection would render the perfection, imperfect! Even when someone is free from sin they are not free from imperfection and it is Jesus himself who determines when a person has attained perfection.

  17. greasemonkey says:

    The Order of Carmelites and the Order of Discalced Carmelites have removed themselves from the business of the Sabbatine Privilage. They released a statment on it here http://carmelitanacollection.com/catechesis.php
    Because the scapular and our Lady of Mount Carmel are bound up with the Carmelite Order I would look to them for a healthy perspective on the brown scapular.

  18. cpaulitz says:

    Father, I appreciate your perspective, but the Sabbatine Privilege is a private privilege revealed to a saint — it’s not an indulgence and was never, and I don’t believe could be, abrogated by a pope. [You don’t? Well… that settles it then! o{];¬) ] I’m not pitting one against the other. But we must also understand the difference between an indulgence and a privilege.

  19. Elizabeth D says:

    Dominicanes and Father P, numerous Orders in the middle ages had overlapping stories about Our Lady giving their habit or etc with assurances of her care, the Simon Stock/Carmelite version first appears in a Dominican martyrology about 150 years after the commonly-stated date of St Simon Stock having a vision. It is true that the really similar Dominican version precedes it, and knowing very well that many people are going to stick with the traditional belief I will try to explain what may have happened. Historians point out the evidence for this having been a specific mystical experience of the specific person Simon Stock is not strong (I am not trying to upset anyone. People are welcome to believe in the traditional way. To Fatima devotees in particular, the idea of it being a private revelation like Fatima seems to be very important. No one can prove one way or the other). The really interesting thing is that possibly the only contemporary reference to Simon Stock (and the reason why it is now acknowledged that yes he definitely existed) is a reference in a Dominican history that mentions holy Simon the prior general of the Carmelites in conjunction with a Carmelite Brother who was in danger of losing his vocation in sadness that God would allow the shipwreck death of (Blessed) Jordan of Saxony, a holy Dominican. The Carmelite brother is said to have had a vision of Jordan assuring him that “all who serve the Lord Jesus Christ to the end will be saved”. THIS seems to be trustworthy information, which was doubtless really consoling to the Dominicans who recorded it.

    For the record, the earliest form of the Carmelite scapular story, as recorded in a late 14th c Dominican martyrology, is “St. Simon was an Englishman, a man of great holiness and devotion, who always in his prayers asked the Virgin to favor his Order with some singular privilege. The Virgin appeared to him holding the Scapular in her hand saying, ‘This is for you and yours a privilege; the one who dies in it will be saved.” I do personally think this story, which legitimately expresses Our Lady’s care for Carmelites who persevere faithfully in their vocation (signified by the habit), may originate with the Dominicans composing this martyrology based on their own history book mentioned above, adapted in the direction of similarity to their own Dominican story of Our Lady giving the Dominican scapular, and that it did not necessarily originate with Simon Stock.

  20. LadyMarchmain says:

    Yes, some of the religious orders in the church have parted company with some of the traditional devotions and charisms of their order, just as nuns have shed their habits, etc. etc.
    Yes, the beautiful and powerful Latin prayers of the original enrollment ceremony have been replaced with (to my mind) overly simplified and ugly prayers lacking in a sense of the numinous and dare I say, ineffable, and these would not be the only prayers subjected to this (mis)treatment, as our good host and teacher, Fr. Z, regularly demonstrates to us.
    And yes, it is well nigh impossible to find a priest willing to enroll one in the brown scapular using the traditional prayers. I have been trying for 19 years, and even traveled to a Carmelite monastery for this purpose, child and brown scapulars in hand only to be told: “We don’t really know what happened with Simon Stock.” The converse is also true: we don’t know what did NOT take place. If this is considered a revelation, I believe it is one of the approved Marian apparitions.
    Is there any harm in wishing to formalize through a beautiful, devout ritual, a special commitment to a deeper prayer life?
    As pointed out, the current enrollment does not require any prayer commitment at all, and there are no special graces attached, so it feels rather…disappointing.

  21. eucharisted says:

    What Elizabeth D. said is correct, you can read the Rite of Blessing of and Enrollment in the Scapular of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel here: http://thereseocds.org/uploads/DoctrinalStatement.pdf

    And it seems Servant of God Lucia Santos never mentioned the Scapular in the first volume of her memoirs, which you can read here: http://www.pastorinhos.com/livros/en/MemoriasI_en.pdf

    So, I wonder where the correlation between Carmelite and Fatima came from?

  22. cpaulitz says:

    I was enrolled with the traditional Latin prayers and with the traditional requirements, provided by Opus Dei.

  23. Tom T says:

    That is the link I was going to recommend. The Holy See actually banned the Carmelites in 1613 from preaching the ‘Sabbatine Privilege’ as the bull that was supposed to be written by Pope John XXII was found to be a fraud and would probably not be written by him as he did not believe in purgatory. No Catholic can dispute that the scapular disposes it`s wearers to grace, including -hopefully-the grace of final persaverance, but we cannot say that Our Lady made any promises to Saint Simon Stock or to Pope John XXII regarding this sacramental. In the paper published by Fr. Patrick McMahon O.Carm Ph.D he states that the existance of a Simon Stock is questionable and has never really been definitively identified. According to his article at http–www.carmelstream.com-wp-content-uploads-2011-07-scaparticle… the scapular of the Carmelites it is believed came from Dominicans Card. Hugh of Saint Cher and Bishop William of Tertisa in 1247 as they were asked by Pope Innocent IV to help the Carmelites make adaptation to urban-and mendicant- life. Historians are confident that the 1247 legislation had strong Dominican indfluence. Perhaps at this point the scapular became part of the Carmelite habit. It is known, according to Dr. McMahon O.Carm., from extent manuscripts that constitutions of the late 13th and early 14th centuries had to insist Carmelites wear their scapulars, they do not seem to be very attached to their garments. This would be, of course, very strange , if the Blessed Virgin Mary had indeed appeared to St. Simon Stock in 1257 as legend tells us. Veritas, as the Dominicans say. Bottom line is, as the Miraculas Medal or any other sacramental, it`s spirituality is dependant on the disposition of the wearer. Pax.

  24. Dr. Sebastianna says:

    Excuse me, but… Just how exactly can the CHURCH abrogate a promise made by the MOTHER OF GOD?

    Is there something I am missing, here???

  25. LiteratureAddict says:

    Father P:
    ‘Our Lady, “seamstress of the Middle Ages”, Pray for us.’
    What a beautiful and appropriate title for the Blessed Mother! Thank you for making my day with that gem.

  26. Tim Ferguson says:

    Matthew 16:19.

  27. Oneros says:

    Hm. I tend to agree that the Sabbatine Privilege does not seem to take the form of “an indulgence.” It seems more like one of the 15 Promises to those who recite the rosary or do the Sacred Heart devotions, etc. As far as I know, no indulgence takes the form of “You’ll get out of purgatory on this day!” Firstly because indulgences are granted only to the Church Militant and applied to Purgatory only by way of suffrage. Second, because they are plenary or partial (whether as a “matching grant” of satisfaction, as currently, or a certain number of days of equivalent canonical penance, etc); they don’t take the form of a guaranteed “release date.” So it really doesn’t seem to be an indulgence.

  28. Tom T says:

    Dr. Sabastianna,
    In answer to your question, it was not made by The Mother of God. Historians have found that the bull that was supposed to be issued by Pope John XXII was a forgery. To be more explicit the bull in question was a statement that the Holy Mother appeared to Pope John and made the promise which was later found out not to be true. Hope that helps. Besides being the Feast of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, today is also celebrated as a Solemnity of the Virgin Mary under the title of Our Lady of Einsiedeln by the Benedictine Swiss Congregation at the Abbey of Maria Einsiedeln and it`s dependencies and in the Archabbey of St. Meinrad and it`s daughter houses. Happy Feast day to all.

  29. Supertradmum says:

    Well, I wear a scapular, but never think of the privilege, as that is not the point for me, and frankly, there is too much controversy over the facts. The FSSP’s “enrolled” me years ago, but never said a word about being connected to being with or visiting a Carmelite Monastery. Many people who wear the scapular do not live within visiting distance of such. I am also concerned about “magical” thinking regarding such practices. A piece of cloth is not a talisman. How we live our lives in accordance with the Church and the sacramental graces given is more to the point. If a scapular helps us concentrate on the Blessed Virgin and Her Son, great.

    There is the same controversy over the prayers of St. Gertrude, which involves the prayers being approved but not the promises, indulgences or privileges connected to them being approved. However, if something brings us to prayer, it is a good thing, as long as we are not superstitious. And, if the Church has abrogated a privilege, as Father Z. has pointed out, we should realize that there must be good reasons for such a decision, as seen by the controversies over the historicity and content of the vision. If one wants to identify with the Carmelites, one should become a Third Order Carmelite.

  30. KevinSymonds says:

    Fr. Z., I have a question.

    The 1983 Code of Canon Law does not mention that joining the Freemasons merits excommunication “latae sententiae” whereas the 1917 Code did. This fact raised a brouhaha, forcing the CDF to issue separate documents on the matter.

    My question is: because the new Enchiridion does not mention the Sabbatine Privilege, does this mean it is no longer in force?

    I look forward to your response as this matter concerns me greatly.

  31. jesusthroughmary says:

    KevinSymonds –


  32. Elizabeth D says:

    KevinSymonds, if you read the information at the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm you will realize the Sabbatine Privilege was never in force in the sense that a Pope had a vision of Our Lady saying that scapular wearers are promised to get out of Purgatory the Saturday after their death. This was based on a totally faux papal bull. The fact of it never having been real at all, and having been specifically forbidden to be taught by the Holy See in the 17 c, hasn’t kept people from propagating this notion and considering it traditional.

    It IS permitted to believe or teach that Our Lady’s prayers will be effective in helping one’s soul in Purgatory, especially on Saturdays, the day specially dedicated to her when many votive Masses of Our Lady are offered. There used to be an indulgence associated with the Brown Scapular, this is inherently something the Church has authority to grant or not. Today there are plenary indulgences available to actual members of the actual canonically established Confraternity of the Brown Scapular groups on several different Carmelite feast days (I am under the impression this is more indulgences than there used to be for the scapular), but not to other brown scapular wearers. If you read the Church’s current information (approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship) about the devotion, it explains: http://thereseocds.org/uploads/DoctrinalStatement.pdf Thank you eucharisted for posting that link.

  33. shin says:

    A devout history of the scapular, and privileges. Quite different than the approach applied these days… can reveal some things and open some eyes to some beautiful truths.

    While today defense may be lacking, the authors and Carmelites of the past protected these devotions, related history, and answered questions quite differently.

  34. Tom T says:

    The Confraternity of the Rosary has many indulgences attached for those who pray the Rosary. My preference of Marian devotion is the Miraculas Medal. St Catherine Laboure died on the 31rst of Dec. 1876. When her body was exhumed after 57 years of burial it was found completely incorrupt and supple. Her eyes were as blue as the day she died. On May 28th she was beatified by Pope Pius XI witnessed by 50,000 people 8000 of whom were children dressed in white all wearing the Miraculas Medal. On the 27th of July 1947 she was canonized by Pope Pius XII. Catherine Laboure is still lying in state at the right of the altar in the Chapel Rue du Bae 140, in Paris and she still looks as though she only died yesterday. Whatever brings you closer to Christ through Mary is fine in my view however in my mind there is no doubt where the Miraculas Medal came from. Pax

  35. Paulus1988 says:

    Pope Benedict XV said : “Let all of you have a common language and a common armor: the language, the sentences of the Gospel; the armor, the Scapular of Mary which all ought to wear and which enjoys the singular privilege of protection even after death.”

    St. Pius V (Superna dispositione . . . Feb. 8, 1565): “With apostolic authority and by tenor of the present, we approve each of the privileges [of the Carmelite Order] and also the Sabbatine.”

    Free. Paul McDonald

  36. jesusthroughmary says:

    Shin –

    Is it not yet clear to you that the Bulla Sabbatina is a fraud and a lie, that the apparition to John XXII never happened?

  37. Robertus Pittsburghensis says:

    The Sabbatine privilege is not an indulgence, and so was not abrogated by the new enchiridion. It is adequately described in the decree of the Holy Roman General Inquisition of 20 Jan 1613. And pace Elizabeth D, the Carmelites have neither the authority nor the competence to re-write that decree. To quote the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, “the decree cannot be contested.”

    The article goes on to state that, “The Sabbatine privilege thus consists essentially in the early liberation from purgatory, through the special intercession and petition of Mary, which she graciously exercises in favour of her devoted servants preferentially — as we may assume — on the day consecrated to her, Saturday. Furthermore, the conditions for the gaining of the privilege are of such a kind as justify a special trust in the assistance of Mary. It is especially required of all who wish to share in the privilege that they faithfully preserve their chastity, and recite devoutly each day the Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin. However, all those who are bound to read their Breviary, fulfil the obligation of reciting the Little Hours by reading their Office. Persons who cannot read must (instead of reciting the Little Hours) observe all the fasts prescribed by the Church as they are kept in their home diocese or place of residence, and must in addition abstain from flesh meat on all Wednesdays and Saturdays of the year, except when Christmas falls on one of these days. The obligation to read the Little Hours and to abstain from flesh meat on Wednesday and Saturday may on important grounds be changed for other pious works; the faculty to sanction this change was granted to all confessors by Leo XIII in the Decree of the Congregation of Indulgences of 11 (14) June, 1901.”

  38. jesusthroughmary says:

    Robertus –

    However, the specific belief in a promise of being liberated from Purgatory on the first Saturday after death may not be taught, and is not a part of the Sabbatine privilege; however, many still teach that specific but forbidden belief as “the more traditional form”.

  39. Pingback: St. Bonaventure New Evangelization St. Augustine | Big Pulpit

  40. rujx says:

    Where can I get a brown carmelite scapular??? [They are often available at your local parish or Catholic religious goods stores. If you are in a mission country, check with the diocese.]

  41. dans0622 says:

    @Robertus: that is a good point and I think it also supports the conclusion that the Privilege, as it was/is commonly understood (cf. the “in a nutshell” in Father’s post) is no longer “in force.” In the 1908 decree, the Privilege is not that certain faithful are liberated from Purgatory on the Saturday after their death but that the Carmelites are permitted to preach that the Blessed Virgin will especially intercede for those faithful on Saturdays. The content of this preaching is obviously not as specific as “the Saturday after death, you will be in heaven.”

    It seems to me that the way most people today understand the Sabbatine Privilege is that it is a sort of indulgence: release from Purgatory/remission of all remaining temporal punishment due to sin on the Saturday after death. But, the way the Church has officially spoken of the Privilege (i.e., in 1613 and repeated in 1908) is different: it is a Privilege allowing Carmelite fathers to preach about this pious belief. The Carmelites can’t change this history but they can decline to avail themselves of this permission.

  42. LaudemGloriae says:

    I am saddened that the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel was the day chosen to have this discussion. The Order is celebrating, renewing vows.

  43. Tom T says:


    You can receive a free Blessed Brown Scapular by going to http://www.carmelitedevelopment.org/ and simply ask for it. Also, for a small donation to cover shipping costs they will send you, if you request it, a hand maid clothe scapular, Blessed, of course, made by Viet Namese students that will last forever. If you would like a free Miraculous Medal, join the Militia of the Immaculata and consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and they will send you a free medal and information. They can be found at mi@consecration.com or http://www.consecration.com. There are many paths and ways to get to where you desire to be through Mary. Pax.

  44. shin says:

    RE: JesusthroughMary

    Yes, it is quite the opposite. I find the arguments, when confronted with the neglected arguments in favor of the past, quite unconvincing, and faulty.

  45. Tom T says:

    The arguments of which you speak come from the Carmelite historians themselves. An exegetical study of the order`s history would probably clear up some of your doubts. Pax.

  46. Catholicman44455 says:

    The Papal Bull of 1322 has been proven false. We can rely on God and the BVM to assist us in our efforts to reduce our Purgatory, but the “automatic” Saturday promise is not real. Also, the supposed apparition to Simon Stock cannot be supported by historical evidence, since the first circulars with the “words of the BVM” did not exist until 300 years later. See below:

    Catholic Q & A: Given this pledge and its faithful execution, the person so committed will be helped “by Mary’s unceasing intercession, devout pleadings, merits, and special protection–especially on Saturday, ‘the day dedicated to the Holy Virgin’.” (Bull of the Holy Office, 1613, referring to a privilege purportedly recorded in the bull, Sacratissimo ubi culmine, March 3, 1322, by Pope John XII, a bull no longer considered authentic– See F. Beringer, Les Indulgences, vol. II, #239, pp. 189-90).

    Pius XII mentioned this privilege in 1950 and thus lent it credence and authority. In his words: “This most kind mother will not be tardy in using her intercession with God to open the gates of heaven as soon as possible for those of her children who are expiating their faults in purgatory, a truth that is based on the promise known as the Sabbatine privilege.” (Letter Commemorating the seven-hundredth anniversary of the Mount Carmel Scapular, February 11, 1950, AAS XLII, 390) Already in 1910, Pius X had reconfirmed the indulgences attached to the Sabbatine Privilege (AAS III, 22-24).
    People sometimes ask if the privilege implies that Mary will free the soul from purgatory on the Saturday following death. ‘Saturday’ is to be understood as symbol of Mary’s prompt succor. As Pius XII stated:
    Mary is a “most kind mother.”
    She will “not be tardy in using her intercession with God.”
    to “open the gates of heaven as soon as possible.”

    From the Catholic Dictionary: The pious belief, approved by the Church, that the Blessed Virgin would be specially propitious to those who have worn the brown scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel and observed certain other practices. Specifically, Pope Paul V in 1613 authorized the following decree to be published: “It is permitted to the Carmelite Fathers to preach that the Christian people may believe that the Blessed Virgin will help by her continued assistance and her merits, particularly on Saturdays, the souls of the members of the Scapular Confraternity who have died in the grace of God, if in life they had worn the scapular, observed chastity according to their state of life, and recited the Office of the Blessed Virgin or observed the fasts of the Church, practicing abstinence on Wednesdays and Saturdays.” There was an earlier version of the Sabbatine privilege that is now considered certainly erroneous, based on an alleged bull of Pope John XXII, supposedly published in 1322. This apocryphal document has the Pope say that Carmelites and others who wear the scapular would be delivered by the Blessed Virgin from purgatory on the Saturday after their death.

    Regarding Simon Stock: Also known as the Brown Scapular, this is the best known, most celebrated, and most widespread of the small scapulars. It is spoken of as “the Scapular”, and the “feast of the Scapular” is that of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on 16 July. It is probably the oldest scapular and served as the prototype of the others. According to a pious tradition the Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon Stock at Cambridge, England, on Sunday, 16 July, 1251. In answer to his appeal for help for his oppressed order, she appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said: “Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity and for thee and all Carmelites a special sign of grace; whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant”. This tradition, however, appears in such a precise form for the first time in 1642, when the words of the Blessed Virgin were given in a circular of St. Simon Stock which he is said to have dictated to his companion secretary, and confessor, Peter Swanyngton. Although it has now been sufficiently shown that this testimony cannot be supported by historical documents, still its general content remains a reliable pious tradition.

  47. Tom T says:

    I believe it would be safe to say without all the discussions about what took place in 1251
    or much later as history has shown about the origins of the Carmelites which obviously the debate at the University of Cambridge between the Dominican Stokes and the Carmelite Hornby did not resolve and left grave doubts as to the question of Simon Stock and the claims made about the scapular in 1375, that if all the conditions that were laid downed and required for salvation on the first saturday of the month or any saturday ie; confession, devotion to the Holy Mother Holy Communion and a life of chaste living when as far back as the 2nd century
    from writings that were discovered from early Christians, that Mary, the Mother of God was granted by Our Lord, her request that souls in her care would would be taken to heaven by her request will be honored.

    From Carmelitatum Institute per ‘A Catechesis on the Brown Scapular’ by Fr. Copsey O.Carm, Fr. Sam Morello O.C.D. and Fr. Patrick McMahon O.Carm and submitted for and recieved the imprimatur by Card. James Hickey the various Popes who over the years encouraged wearing the Brown Scapular do not prove the historicity of the vision. Some – such as Gregory XIII, Clement VII, Pope St. Pius X, Pope St. Pius V and Pope John Paul II – have repeated stories and legends concerning St. Simon Stock and the Sabbatine Priviledge. No one has ever claimed that these statements enjoy the priviledge of infallibility and they do not meet the criterion which the First Vatican Council set down to for papal statements to be infallible.

    To be clear, devotion to Mary the Mother of God with any sacramental is not pass out of purgatory It still requires us to live in the sincere practice of our Faith and love of God and neighbor and with devotion to Our Holy Mother she will intercede for us at the time of our death. Pax

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