Dear Traditionalists,…

I had this from a reader. He said he was not advocating these things. However, liberals will advocate them.

I’ve got some other suggestions.  But first the wacky liberal stuff:

I have an idea for a blog topic – how about brainstorming with your readers on the top 10 changes that Pope Francis will make that will shock the Church and the world. I would orient the discussion around the Pope’s “vision” that the Church is for the poor and should itself be poor. For example, here are some ideas I had:

1) Pope Francis will live at the Lateran Basilica as an example that he will live a simple life away from the Vatican.
2) Pope Francis will allow the ordination of women deacons in service to the poor.
3) Pope Francis will sell the Vatican Museums to a private company and give the proceeds to the poor.
4) Pope Francis will get a petition from the English speaking bishops and will rescind use of the 2010 RM because the language is too complicated.
5) Pope Francis will repudiate Humanae Vitae since too many children tends to perpetuate poverty.

Yep. This is precisely what liberals will push for, hopelessly.

What do I think we should push for?

As many celebrations of the older form of the Roman Rite as possible in as many places as possible as soon as possible.

It’s ‘grind it out’ time.

I am getting some defeatist email.

Those of you who want the older form of the liturgy, and all that comes with it, should…

1) Work with sweat and money to make it happen. If you thought you worked hard before?   Been at this a long time?  HAH!  Get to work!  “Oooo! It’s tooo haaard!”  BOO HOO!

2) Get involved with all the works of charity that your parishes or groups sponsor. Make a strong showing. Make your presence known. If Pope Francis wants a Church for the poor, then we respond, “OORAH!!” The “traditionalist” will be second-to-none in getting involved.  “Dear Father… you can count on the ‘Stable Group of TLM Petitioners-For-By-Now-Several-Months” to help with the collection of clothing for the poor!  Tell us what you need!”

3) Pray and fast and give alms. Think you have been doing that? HAH!  Think again.  If you love, you can do more.

4) Form up and get organized.  You can do this.  Find like minded people and get that request for the implementation of Summorum Pontificum together, how you will raise the money to help buy the stuff the parish will need and DO IT.  Make a plan. Find people. Execute!

5) Get your ego and your own petty little personal interpretations and preferences of how Father ought to wiggle his pinky at the third word out of the way.  It is team-work time.  If we don’t sacrifice individually, we will stay divided and we won’t achieve our objectives.

At the midway point of SEAL training, BUD/S, there is a “Hell Week” to see how much you want it to keep going.

Do you want this?  Do you?  Or, when you don’t get what you want handed to you, are you going to whine about it and then blame others?

The legislation is in place.  The young priests and seminarians are dying to get into this stuff.  Give them something to do.

And to those of you will you blurt out “But Father! But Father!… I don’t like your militaristic imagery”… in order to derail the entry, here’s a new image from your own back yard.

Pope Benedict gave you, boys and girls, over the course of his 8 years, a beautiful new bicycle!  He gave you a direction, some encouragement, a snow cone, and a running push.  Now, take off the damn training wheels and RIDE THE BIKE!


About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in "How To..." - Practical Notes, Benedict XVI, Classic Posts, Francis, Liturgy Science Theatre 3000, My Favorite Posts, Our Catholic Identity, SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM, The future and our choices, Wherein Fr. Z Rants and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.


  1. acardnal says:

    With respect to your request to “grind it out”, my pastor agreed to my request last week to attend training this Spring in the Extraordinary Form at the FSSP seminary in Nebraska, and I agreed to pay for it!

  2. tgarcia2 says:

    Said perfectly, thank you!

  3. Urget_nos says:

    Hoo-rah Fr, Just heading out in a few minutes to set up for a Solemn TLM tonight for St Joseph. Remember folks to INVITE SOMEONE TO HELP YOU, and then thank and encourage them after they do volunteer to help. Many sit on the side lines because they don’t know what to do. Deo gratias, God is good!!!

  4. Suburbanbanshee says:

    First: “Hooah!” Very stirring, Father!

    Second, EWTN ran a great interview they’d done in Spanish with Cardinal Bergoglio about the Year of Faith. He was pretty hardhitting about a lot of things. A lot. Not liberal one little bit.

    (Bet the media only reports the bit where he said people spend too much money on pets and cosmetics, as compared to what they spend on kids starving to death. There goes their love for him as a St. Francis of Assisi!)

  5. padredana says:

    Hooah! Right on the money, Father! This is what we need to hear instead of all the defeatist talk and hand wringing from some quarters of the traditionalist camp. Keep up this kind of encouragement Father!

  6. Maxiemom says:

    I am certainly not a “traddy” and as I read the posts and comments, I am surprised how many “traddies” seem to be taking a defeatist attitude when Pope Francis was just inaugurated today. Give him time. While TLM is not for every Catholic, I doubt if he will change the fact that it is more mainstream now than it has been since Vatican II.

  7. GAK says:

    This is the best blog post I have read in a very long time.

    And now I will amuse myself spinning a “But, Father!!”

    “But Father, but Father, my shoelaces get caught in the bike! I can only buy shoes from the crappy Novus Ordo Five-and-Ten and THEY are keeping me from pedaling!”

  8. McCall1981 says:

    @ Suburbanbanshee

    Do you have a link to that interview? I’d love to see it.

  9. acardnal says:


    I thought it was great! Spoke of narcissism, consumerism, idolatry of pets, cosmetics. Fantastic!

  10. Suburbanbanshee says:

    Yup, that’s the interview.

    And now we know why he’s trying to be so nice. Because if you’re the kind of guy who will publicly criticize doggies and kitties and pretties, you have to build up some goodwill before you start your career of lowering the boom.

    Heh! Not sure I was ready for this!

  11. NoTambourines says:

    Top ten changes… here’s one:

    The Popemobile will be replaced by a tandem bike with Pope Francis in the front, and a Swiss Guard in the other seat.

  12. catholicmidwest says:

    Pay attention.

    Fr. Z isn’t talking about talking now. He’s talking about getting out of the chair and doing some work to make things happen, and let the Church know you care for others. Go back and LOOK at the bullet points in Fr. Z’s post.

    Traditional Catholics are very well positioned to do these things. You have young members; you have enthusiasm for the faith. If your faith is as vibrant as you say it is, if you are the future as you say you are, then PROVE IT.

    Or not. People won’t believe you if you fail on this one.

  13. John Nelson says:

    That, Father, inspired me to make a donation! Keep it coming!

  14. mamajen says:

    Amen, Father!

    I don’t know that I count as a “traditionalist” because I don’t attend a TLM, but I have been thinking about what kind of message it would send to Pope Francis if we continue the way we were going under Benedict. We can show that we have faith and trust in him, that we don’t presume that he is evil and seeking to wreak havoc on tradition. Perhaps that vote of confidence would actually inspire him to be more openly supportive of tradition! The SSPX could make a huge statement if they were to approach Pope Francis rather than acting as though their ship has sailed (not holding my breath on that one, but it has been on my mind). Sometimes simply showing someone that you love and trust them causes them rise to the occasion and try even harder…at least that’s what I’ve found to be true in marriage and as a parent.

  15. kallman says:


    SSPX and FSSP were among the first to write to the new Pope

  16. benedetta says:


  17. Supertradmum says:

    Many years ago in Canada, which sounds like the beginning of a movie, a holy couple I knew personally paid for the FSSP priest to come up weekly from America to say Mass. This meant plane trips over several years, until the congregation was built up enough for the bishop to give the order a parish.

    This is what it takes. Sacrifice.

    As to corporal works of mercy, you hit a nail on the head, Fr. Z.

    A lovely Catholic convert told me today that although she is thrilled with being a Catholic for a year or so, she missed the community of her old denomination. Catholics are not good at reaching out. I did try and help her understand that at least in England, 500 years of persecution did work at ruining community in most areas.

    I have tried to build traddies communities. It is hard work, but we must keep trying as this is part of our baptismal heritage.

    Also, do people realize how the seminarians really need help? They are under tremendous stress and prayers, as well as financial help, is needed. There is a myth that the Church is rich; this is not so. I know three traddies who comment on this blog who personally help sems in their dioceses. This should be a priority for all.

  18. Supertradmum says:

    are not is-excuse errors; still have eye infection and it is hard for me to see.

  19. MisterH says:

    I am glad to see the reference to charitable endeavor above.

    Pope Francis raised subject in his homily again today, and I must say I have heard more Catholics talking about helping the less fortunate this week than I have over the past year or two.

    To read the full text of Pope Francis’ moving homily at his installation today, go to the link:

  20. David Zampino says:

    AMEN Father!!!!!!!

  21. Allan S. says:

    Great strategy…but may I also suggest a few tactics? (Tactics always get overlooked whenever strategy is discussed; don’t know why)

    To all lay groups, wealthy traditionalists and clergy in possession of ecclesiastical finery and traditional vestments and Church furnishings: Consider structuring actual ownership of these items in some kind of private trust or holding company with strictly worded Articles, then loan or lease them to the parish, church, diocese, order or even priest. Set up a long lease if you like and ensure some form of consideration occurs (e.g. Some money is paid to borrow or lease the items, even $1). Make the lease airtight such that if some unsympathetic Bishop or Priest comes onto the scene and tries to “sell them for the poor” or stick them in a closet or whatever that you can enforce their immediate return for violation of the lease. Clerics must obey a Superior’s command…laity don’t.

    Second idea? While inner city “poor” parishes are often rich in finery, seek out truly poor parishes or mission churches (like on Indian reserves, etc.) and start a project to send/loan the most amazing sacred objects and vestments for the celebration of both forms of Mass there. Film it. Post it. Write to the Holy Father about how you did this for him (heck, name the initiative after him, citing St. Francis’ words about liturgical beauty.

    Third idea? Name new traditional groups after the Holy Father or his hometown or whatever. Turn this thing on its head. Make Pope Francis the front for traditional overtures.

    Hope this helps.

  22. majuscule says:

    Our little church recently started a once a week St. Vincent de Paul food pantry, distributing food from a local food bank in an under served rural area. This is in no way connected with our new pope, but I think his speaking of serving the poor will have some impact on how our pantry is viewed in the community. Or the other way around–our being there will highlight what he has said.

    We still have altar rails…I dream of a TLM.

    And speaking of Mass…I. Was looking at photos of the Papal inauguration. Msgr. Marini looks at peace. Maybe he will stay on.

  23. Andy Lucy says:

    Hooah, Father. Problems with “militaristic imagery?” Bah. Are we not the Church Militant? Are we not supposed to be fighting Satan? Of course, we are. But, in keeping with that imagery, we are also tasked with humanitarian missions, as well. And this is where most of us need to step up and take our place on the line. My older son in preparing for Confirmation, and is revelling in the community service projects required by our diocese. He has done quadruple the number of hours he is required to do, simply because he has caught the fever of helping those less fortunate. That is a fever that we should ALL endeavour to catch.

  24. SpeakNSpirit says:

    Speaking of little things, something has been bothering me about how Pope Francis says Mass and I’m surprised no one else has noticed it:

    During the Eucharistic Prayer, when his Holiness says the words, “Take this all of you and eat it” and, “Take this all of you and drink from it”, he subtly shows the bread and wine to the people by slightly extending the elements toward them and slightly tipping the Chalice, before pulling them back toward himself when he says, “For this is…”.

    Does that not bother anyone else? I know its not horribly wrong, but since he’s the Pope of the Universal Church, shouldn’t he do everything, especially the most important thing, by the book?

  25. albinus1 says:

    One thing I would recommend to all members of traditional Mass communities is to get involved in your parish, especially if you have the EF Mass at a regular diocesan parish. Our parish has an EF Mass weekly, celebrated by the associate pastor (who will probably be transferred in July!). Our EF Mass group, which we call the St. Gregory Society, has existed since the promulgation of SP, so it predates the arrival of our current pastor three years ago. He is not particularly sympathetic to the EF Mass, and has no desire to celebrate it himself; but he has no objections to our continuing to have the EF Mass in the parish, as long as he doesn’t have to do anything and it doesn’t cost the parish anything.

    But — and here is the point — it means a lot to this pastor to see members of the parish involved in the life of the parish. If members of the traditional Mass community take part in parish activities, he notices. He also notices if we just act like we’re a little enclave unto ourselves, divorced from the larger life of the parish. The one thing that seems to bother him is when people show up for the traditional Mass every Sunday but he never sees them at any other time.

    So, as I said above, my recommendation to all members of traditional Mass communities at diocesan parishes is get involved in the life of your parish. If your parish is running a canned food drive for the St. Vincent DePaul society, take part! If the parish is organizing a pancake breakfast to pay for a class trip for the 7th-graders in the parish school, take part! Be especially sure to participate in devotions such as Eucharistic Adoration, 40 Hours (does any parish do that anymore?), or any other parish activity. If your parish has a Holy Name Society, or a Rosary and Altar Guild, or a council of the Knights of Columbus or the Catholic Daughters of the Americas, join and be active! Sure, it might mean that you might have to attend the occasional NO Mass with the group, but so what? Be a visible member of your parish.

    Pastors notice and appreciate when parishioners give to the parish — in ways other than just with money — instead of just asking for or even demanding things from the parish. Pastors especially notice groups of parishioners who involve themselves in the life of the parish, and those who don’t. And they are much more likely to be sympathetic to the former.

  26. Gulielmus says:

    Thank you, Father Z. For everything, of course, but especially for this. My jaw has dropped so often in the past week at the defeatism, pessimism, and vitriol from some. Sniping and snarking about every variation from our personal preference won’t help. Your exhortations are excellent ones.

  27. jacobi says:

    As someone who is strictly “middle of the road”, can I make three points?

    – Benedict XVI, (as you indicated Father), has given traditionalists all the scope they need with Summorum Pontificum. It’s up to them to persuade laity and priests to use this co-equal form of the Latin Rite. Remember that priests do not need permission, they only need congregations.

    – The Ordinary Form, the other co-equal form of the Latin Rite, needs the Reform of the Reform desperately.

    – All of us need a Syllabus of Errors, covering Vatican II, as suggested by Bishop Schneider, even more desperately.

  28. Imrahil says:

    Does that not bother anyone else?

    It does not bother me.

    Is it an addition of something to the rite, as forbidden by canon law? No it is not. Every celebrant has to do his celebration in some sort of way. This is simply to small to be called an addition.
    (And then, I have a habit of not caring about such the priests following the rubrics, per se. Would make my life too hard. Rubrics are rubrics, but it’s the respective priest’s superior’s job to have them carried through. As it says in the military code of Germany, “any superior is bound to see orders fulfilled by appropriate supervision”. Not my job.)

    Does it show (what would make the story different, even for me) a problematic tendency?

    No. To the contrary.

    I do not know why the Holy Father shows the unconsecrated gifts to the people; simply do not know; but then there’s nothing objectable either. But the only envisable reason why he draws them back to himself is to pronounce over them the Words of Consecration. That is anything but problematic.

    (And then, little nod to Dr Peters and others, there’d still be the Papal power of granting himself dispensations – in whatever measure that is either possible or advisable.)

  29. Allan S. says:

    As to the wacky liberal ideas I am actually concerned as I could see women Deacons happening, especially given the role of Deacon vis-a-vis the poor. I understood it is admitted that there were women Deacons in the past, and the current and recent prohibition on women priests are just that – confirmation of the mandatory sacramental nature of the (male) priesthood. As in priests not generically clerics. So…possible in the sense that it would be lawful (I would quite happily be refuted on this please…one trad website I follow has argued this and both sides seemed to acknowledge women Deacons existed at some point).

    I could also see HV being watered down (sorry, re-interpreted “for our time” or some such nonsense), to prevent disease harm-reduction type arguments.

    I dislike the word “defeatist” since, as Father Z points out, such an attitude gets you nowhere. But we should, rationally, be prepared for the worst in case all our efforts and this “into the breech one more time” stuff turns out to be lipstick on a pig. If SP goes, what becomes of the FSSP? And other reconciled traditional orders? Their options are…not good. So..Father Z’s advice is in a practical sense the only option open to us following a conclave result that may very turn out the worst way possible. I am still shocked. Let’s watch how Cardinal Burke responds to the whole challenge and emulate him and other fine, traditional Bishops.

    I hate catacombs…but will go if necessary.

  30. Imrahil says:

    All of us need a Syllabus of Errors, covering Vatican II, as suggested by Bishop Schneider, even more desperately.

    We’ll rather see the SSPX regularized with full official allowance of Council criticism, than have that.

    Speaking of that, without unnecessarily going into hairsplitting about that “really full” might be “a bit too much” etc., I’d kind-of like to have both.

  31. a catechist says:

    It’s a small step, but when our parish/cathedral lost several bulletin sponsors, the EF community took up a collection to buy a year’s worth of an ad space as a bulletin sponsor. We invite people to the EF, of course. It wasn’t very expensive.

  32. Imrahil says:

    Dear @Allan S.,

    there never existed women deacons. What did exist was diaconissae (as it is best said in Latin; or Diakonisse, not Diakonin, German). Which is, I say in simplification, essentially a (non-contemplative, I guess) religious sister. They had places which explicitly make clear that, though of high rank, they were quite distinct from sacramental orders. Their only participation in a Sacrament was helping with (not conferring) adult baptism (the enter-in-a-river type), where women were concerned. And maybe bringing them the Blessed Sacrament.

    We won’t have them.

    What is perhaps a more realistic fear is the “I’m sorry, I’d have ordained that differently, but this is how God wanted it” approach. As justified as this is as first response when in heated emotions in need for an argument, anything remotely suggesting that God did something He did not for a reason, won’t outlast the night.

  33. PA mom says:

    Our Moms group has been using meal to organize meals for new moms in the parish. We were able to use it to help a family where the mom has been fighting cancer too. It is amazing how many different people have been willing to cook and deliver support. Just beautiful.

  34. Deus vult!

    Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum.

  35. kneeling catholic says:


    I don’t really don’t see any room for pessimism here! We should recall that under Pope Benedict:
    1. many questionable Bishops and Cardinals were appointed. Indeed, many of those 2/3 plus of the cardinals who elected Francis were surely doing it as a rebuke to Benedict XVI. (thinking that he would reverse everything Benedict held dear!) With such friends, –whom he himself had rewarded with high positions– you know the rest of the adage.
    Pope Francis is likely to promote priests and bishops who are not in love with the ‘good life’…typically traditionalist priests will better fit this mold than the many time-server priests who chose their profession because it is a comfortable life with many benefits.

    2. Pope Benedict’s reform of the reform was not taken seriously by the huge amount of – you guessed it– his ‘friends’. We on the ground have been suffering thru the same outrages as before. If traditionalists make their case to Francis: ugly liturgies hurt the POOR, ugly churches hurt the POOR (the rich return to their beautiful homes which look like cathedrals…we only deprive the POOR when we turn our churches into garages and such. Don’t they have a right to beauty as well?) are not deprivation of beauty and sensual,” smells and bells”, more soul numbing than hunger of the belly?

    I think this Pope will hear us. (and it is beyond me how anyone can be downcast, seeing all the kneeling Communion going on at every mass the Holy Father has presided over, the Conclave Conclusion, Sunday at St . Ann’s, his Inauguration! –not to mention his depriving politicians the chance to use the Sacrament as a photo-op! How can we not be filled with anything but hope!

  36. JacobWall says:

    This is inspiring!

  37. WesleyD says:

    One other suggestion, from a semi-outsider (I attend the Ordinary Form much more often than the Extraordinary Form/TLM):

    In my experience, the most powerful EF liturgies I have seen have been at parishes that are primarily dedicated to the older rite (e.g., parishes run by the Fraternal Society of St Peter or the Institute of Christ the Kingor a similar group). However, when I have visited such parishes, the people have seemed uniformly unfriendly to me. I don’t know whether they all know each other already (and immediately recognize me as a stranger), or whether something about my clothing or demeanor gives away the fact that I am not a frequent attendee of the TLM, or whether they see me doing something wrong in my responses (although my high school Latin is still decent). But regardless of what the reason is, if I weren’t someone who deeply desired to attend that Mass, I wouldn’t have returned. I must have attended several dozen different OF parishes in my life — counting vacations, probably more than a hundred — and I have never seen a group as unfriendly as when I attended the EF.

    Now, I am very open to the possibility that I was doing something wrong. I’m male, so it wasn’t the mantilla, but maybe a tie and suit jacket are required? Regardless, I would have been VERY happy if someone had told me what I was doing wrong, so I could have returned the next time and done it right. Ronald Reagan — speaking of politics rather than theology — once said, “The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor.” Now, if the 20 percent is a matter of defined dogma, that doesn’t apply here; someone who agrees with us 80% but disbelieves in the divinity of Christ is not a Catholic. But someone who publicly says that same-sex marriage is being used by the devil, and that abortion is murder, but doesn’t wear red shoes — is such a person really a 20-percent traitor? If I didn’t wear a suit to an EF, and it was my first time, should I have been treated so badly? (Maybe the answer is yes; I honestly don’t know.)

    The alternative, which really frightens me, is that perhaps the people at this EF parish are as cold to one another as they are to me. If that’s the case, then perhaps what needs to happen is for the entire EF to be suppressed until the current subculture dies out, and then it can be restored with a brand new generation a century from now where it carries none of the current baggage. I would be greatly distressed by this, and that’s why this possibility frightens me so much.

    I recognize that those Catholics who love the TLM have been persecuted in many severe ways for half a century now. But the fact remains that the Church was persecuted for THREE CENTURIES before Constantine, and yet they knew that hatred and spite was not the proper response. Many of the individual Traditionalists (even those who are schismatics!) whom I have met have been personally friendly to me. It’s only when I visit a parish where they are regularly gathered that I have felt this way.

    I don’t know what it is. But assuming I didn’t imagine it, isn’t it possible that a diocesan bishop has gotten the same “vibe”? If so, that would be very unfortunate!

  38. Datum: the grumpiness and catastrophizing of some Traditionalists is not going unnoticed. If someone in Rome doesn’t know about it yet, I suspect it will be made known (because there are those who will want to do so–count on it).

    Suggestion: while you can make an argument that it can be useful for the leader to know certain folks are “restless,” I wouldn’t overdo it. I think it would not serve traditionalists well if folks–for their own purposes–can argue, “those crazy traditionalists, look at the insane things they say about the pope!”

    So maybe it would be good if traditionalists were generous in love for the holy father. That’s not hard, is it?

  39. Another datum:

    I talked with a parish music director recently. I won’t name the parish, but it’s a parish where things are reasonably “conservative” and traditional. Yet there isn’t a lot of chant.

    I made some suggestions about Gregorian Chant–and he said something along the lines of, that wouldn’t go over well, people wouldn’t sing it.

    Now, in this case, I think the music director would do it–if people told him they were interested. He’s not doctrinaire; but he doesn’t want to beat his head against the wall. He doesn’t want to sell something to the pastor and have it go flat. And–there will be those who will complain.

    So, folks–don’t assume that “they won’t listen, why bother?” That is sometimes true; too often true. But it’s not the whole story.

    And if ever you think you’re being asked to do too much for the Lord (and maybe you are, I don’t know), go read what God asked Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel to do.

  40. vox borealis says:


    Regarding women deacons, it’s a little more complicated than you present it. Look no further than the new testament, Romans 16:1 to be precise, wherein Phobe is called diakonos (well, diakonon in the accusative), the masculine form. Now, that was translated into Latin as “in minsterio,” so from an early point, it seems, the Church recognized that women such as Phoebe served in some different role. But nonetheless, there is textual–scriptural–evidence for women deacons. I’d have to check to see if there is similar epigraphical evidence.

    I’m not arguing in favor of “women deacons.” I am only pointing out that we cannot claim that such terminology never existed (i.e., that there were only “deaconesses” in the old times).

  41. Geoffrey says:

    I do not consider myself a traditionalist. I am an “orthodox” Roman Catholic Christian who loves both forms of the Roman Rite (when done properly!).

    I do believe we need more EF Masses in order to, paraphrasing George Weigel, act as a magnet, drawing the shrapnel out of the OF Mass, which is here to stay.

    I do not believe anyone needs to fear the future of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. His Holiness the Pope emeritus made it a legal reality: there is one Roman Rite with 2 equal forms. I cannot imagine any Roman Pontiff altering this in any way.

    My concern is the future of the reform of the reform. Too often I feel the EF Mass and those who attend it are being relegated to a ghetto existence. In such a case, it will never act as a magnet, extracting the shrapnel from the Ordinary Form.

    I would like to see some sort of “plan of action” for those of us who love the Extraordinary Form, but also want to see the reform of the reform. I have been thinking about what to do myself in my own diocese. This is definitely the time to get busy. I am just not sure how…

  42. Gaetano says:

    Speaking of little things, something has been bothering me about how Pope Francis says Mass and I’m surprised no one else has noticed it:

    During the Eucharistic Prayer, when his Holiness says the words, “Take this all of you and eat it” and, “Take this all of you and drink from it”, he subtly shows the bread and wine to the people by slightly extending the elements toward them and slightly tipping the Chalice, before pulling them back toward himself when he says, “For this is…”.

    For what it’s worth, I have seen this custom used by a Jesuit priest from Brazil. It may be an over-generalization, but it may be a Latin American/Latin American Jesuit thing. In their defense, the bread and wine were shown, but then drawn back toward the priest so that he could pronounce the words of consecration over them.

    As for Pope Francis’s overall style, I have only seen beautiful liturgies celebrated by him. Some issues, like the black trousers under the white simar, may work their way out over time – or perhaps someone will give him a pair of white/cream trousers.

    Who knows, the mozzetta may make an appearance yet – though I am not holding my breath for the camauro or fannon.

    As another writer has observed, this is the first pope from a religious order in a long while – and there are deep traditions associated with religious order popes that are different from secular popes.

    Perhaps Fr. Z or another writer could enlighten us further on that point.

  43. Gaetano says:

    One further point: Here is the description of the music for the Papal coronation.

    Regarding the music for the ceremony, several moments are notable. When the Pope enters the Basilica silver trumpets will ring out the “Tu es Petrus”. The Laudes Regiae will be chanted during the procession from St. Peter’s tomb to the “Sagrato”. A 14 piece brass ensemble will play at various moments of the celebration. During the Offertory the “Tu es pastor ovium” (You Are the Shepherd of the Sheep) motet composed by Pierluigi da Palestrina precisely for the Inauguration of the Pontificate will be sung. At the conclusion, the “Te Deum” will be sung with verses alternating between Gregorian chant and a melody by Tomas Luis de Victoria. As it will not be held on a Sunday, there will be no Angelus after the Mass.

    Does any of that sound like the work of a liturgical philistine?

  44. iowapapist says:

    I do consider myself a traditionalist living in a desert of liturgical lunacy. However, I am not going to complain. Today I received the good news that only men will be allowed to participate in the Holy Thursday washing of the feet. As a result, I will attend Holy Thursday Mass for the first time in 13 years. Even in a Novus Ordo parish the secret is “brick by brick”.

  45. I’m sorry Father, I didn’t answer your question, what should we push for?

    How about:

    > Reconciliation of the SSPX.
    > Reconciliation with the Eastern Christians (imagine what that will do to the progressives’ hopes for women’s ordination and messing with the liturgy).
    > An ecological approach to contraception (think about it).
    > Gregorian Chant (you want simplicity? You got it, baby!)
    > The South American protocol about no-communion-for-bad-politicians be extended worldwide. Shouldn’t we learn from the Third World?
    > Appointment of lots of African prelates to handle moral theology. Shouldn’t we learn from the Third World?
    > While I’m on that theme…why not more Cardinal Ranjith on liturgy? (Say it with me:) Shouldn’t we learn from the Third World?

  46. UncleBlobb says:

    Thank you, Fr. Z! Jesus I trust in Thee! OO-RAH!

  47. dominic1955 says:

    Fr. Longnecker had a good point at his blog about combining “High Mass” and “Low Class” like the Anglo-Catholics did around the turn of the century in imitation of the common Catholic practice of priests ministering to the poor and downtrodden. The Traditionalist world only loses the battle when we circle the wagons to make our own little inbred cultures. In order to become the “mainstream” once more, we have to embrace the totality of what it means to be Catholic. Dressing women like fundie Mormons and men like a stereotype from the 50s and bellyaching about all sorts of subjective details (often unintelligently, I might add). I’m as Trad as Trad can be but I don’t waste my breath on overblown modesty and why the Pope needs to finally consecrate Russia or why the 1962 MR is the Mass of the Ages because all of that is simplistic nonsense.

    Catholicism should be a bulwark of striving for holiness and it should also be imminently intelligent and integral-in the best use of that word. What has been destroyed in fifty years will take an awfully long time to build back up again and we need to be patient.

  48. KAS says:

    We have the document, and can ASK for the Extraordinary form. We can also donate generously to those seminaries that turn out priests trained in the EF.

    We can organize and come together and pray the Rosary in a group, with the theme being the EF community to grow until one of the parishes start having the EF.

    And why not get the music and go online for some lessons in chant and start your own group? I can take autoharp lessons by skype– why not Gregorian chant?

    DO something! Within my capacity I am doing– join me and find your own small actions and do them. If enough people do their little bit within their reach– then change comes and we will have more frequent EF Masses, and chant too.

    I don’t understand the pessimism. Pope Francis will do fine– just pray for him.

  49. r.j.sciurus says:

    OO-RAH. Want to annoy a liberal? Out-nice them. Be the example of caritas. Practice what they preach but do it out of love of God rather than love of self.

    Imagine the good that can be done if BOTH “sides” turn to action instead of just talk. Pope Francis’ vision will be on its way.

  50. Catholictothecore says:

    Thank you, Fr. Z. That was awe-inspiring! You really are a rah-rah kind of a guy, “razorblade, seriously!” Jokes aside. If this is what it takes, then lets get serious, and get it done. Of the three – time, talent, and treasure, it is time that is the most precious because it is the one commodity people are unable to give up for whatever reason. I do voluntary work in my parish and in the community. It takes up some of my time but it is for the Lord and it is no question rewarding – in this life and in the life to come. Lets get cracking, as Fr. Z. exhorts us! The time has come.

  51. anastasia says:

    None of it was going to happen anyway, but I wanted to point out that the Pope can’t sell the Vatican art collection. The Vatican , along with a number of other countries, signed a treaty with the U.N. setting up Treasures of Humanity, and one of the stipulations is that they can’t sell the art to private collectors .

  52. MikeM says:

    On an organizational note, is there a website out there for people who are interested in the EF to find other potential EF attendees in their area? Perhaps we need something like a MeetUp page where people can form local groups. That way, it would be easier for people to create the stable groups needed to take advantage of Summorum Pontificum.

  53. Kathleen10 says:

    Ok, sign me up! I want to do my part, but I’m taking a different approach for now. I am going to drive the hour to get to the closest TLM every other week, or at least once per month from now on. Rather than lamenting, I will drive it, and I will support it financially to the best of my ability, which is also important.
    I have a question. Is it possible for a person not educated in music to learn enough about Gregorian Chant to help bring it to a parish? I’m talking about my local parish now, where we have the NO Mass. What I mean is, that seems a more possible undertaking, along with others who may be interested, and I love music, definitely chant. I have the interest, but is it possible? Where does one learn what is needed to do such a thing? Must it always be a musician or music director who does this? It seems like I have heard it does not have to be, but I could use some wisdom on this as an endeavor.
    Thank you in advance, for any suggestions. :)

  54. Archicantor says:

    Everything Fr. Z is saying makes excellent sense.

    But I wonder if the real coup wouldn’t be something like this:

    One day, having established unimpeachable credentials as a “popular” post-Conciliar liturgist, Pope Francis decides to celebrate the Mass in the Extraordinary Form, just once, in public, and does it with care and reverence. He’d only have to do it once for Summorum pontificum to be indelibly written into the liturgical consciousness of the whole Church in a way that it might not have been if a more obviously sympathetic pope (Benedict XVI) had done so. Then the pope could leave all the traditionalists to get on with it under their own steam — and the traditionalists could leave him alone about his mozetta and shoes.

    Perhaps Archbishop Müller, in his capacity as president of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, ought to suggest this.

    Papa Bergoglio was ordained to the priesthood on December 13, 1969. I wonder which missal was used for his first Mass. The missal of Paul VI was officially promulgated on Advent Sunday of that year (November 30, 1969), but I think it was not actually available for use until 1970. Presumably he used the interim missal of 1965?

  55. Random Friar says:

    As for the original list that liberals might push for, I would add:
    6)Winged swine will manifest themselves in flight.

  56. APX says:

    If SP goes, what becomes of the FSSP?
    I thought of this, and I determined that if the FSSP was disbanded, its priests would either have to become religious priests, or diocesan priests. And then I thought to myself, “if they returned to their home dioceses and became diocesan priests, that wouldn’t be so bad. Then we could have reverent OF Masses ad orientem with Gregorian chant, possibly in Latin, with well-formed priests who value confession.” And don’t forget, thanks to Benedict XVI, we now also have the Anglican Rite for recourse.

    I’m going to echo the part about getting involved in one’s parish if it has both forms, and go one step further and tell them to get involved in their diocese. Many Traditionalists need to take the stick out of their derriere and use it to break the bubble they’ve put themselves in. A lot of them make themselves look unfavorable to bishops merely by their terrible attitudes towards bishops, diocesan priests, the OF Mass, etc etc. Set a good example and be someone who attracts people to the EF Mass, not repel them. Lose the traditude. And for the love of all that is holy, don’t be so cliquey! It’s very difficult to break into a group of traditionalists when you’re new (even worse if you’re of a more reserved nature, let us say). Be welcoming, and try your best to reach out to people (I get that not everyone has a sanguine temperament, so this can be difficult, but make an attempt if you happen to cross paths with someone whom you can introduce to your friends or something.)

  57. Evovae says:

    Fr Martin Fox:”I made some suggestions about Gregorian Chant–and he said something along the lines of, that wouldn’t go over well, people wouldn’t sing it.”

    Gregorian Chant is hard to sing. Not just the propers, but even just the Order of the Mass or familiar hymns like Adoro Te, Devote. And if it’s not done passably well, I can understand why people in general might not like it. I’ve tried to set up a schola at my home parish–a rather large place–but I didn’t get more than 5 interested people, none of them strong singers, let alone music readers. That is an absolute must. I did manage to drag the experienced choir through one Communio chant, but that was also very hard and they never quite got a handle on the stylistic differences, esp. the proper phrasing, which really make the chant come alive. Without that (and with the widespread ignorance of Latin that currently obtains) I can understand why most people would think chant is awful, plodding, boring music.

    The parish I go to now does regularly do Gregorian chant, but they kind of blast through it. It’s not bad, but it’s not particularly good–unless one of the choirs has set aside weeks to prepare some of the chants. Then, it can be sublime. But the point is, it really is quite sophisticated music that is very difficult even for competent singers who are willing.

  58. PatB says:

    MikeM: great idea!

    Gregorian chant is not hard to sing! We used to sing it in elementary school. It was easy, because we’d heard it all our lives until that point. (I have an average aptitude for music, by the way). I find some of the modern music at Mass not only difficult to sing, but impossible… People can learn to sing Gregorian chant. It’s not that hard. Gregorian chant is just different, and needs getting used to. Please don’t give up so easily. As Fr. Z says above, we need to work for this. Good for you for your efforts. Keep going!

  59. Allan S. says:

    Also, I think leaders (Fr. Z!) in the traditionalist / reform of the reform movement need to contact and meet with two groups 1) Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, which are almost all EF now although regrettably not “formally” part of the Franciscans and 2) Traditional/Conservative Jesuits (very few, but young!). Push these clerics forward as the face in Rome of the traditional resurgence and source of religious vocations. And keep making the point that facts speak for themselves: trad orders are raking vocations in hand over fist, while others really struggle (obviously…why become a priest of the “priesthood of the faithful” canard has married men and women running through the sanctuaries?)

  60. naturgesetz says:

    One point which I haven’t seen mentioned but which everybody needs to bear in mind:

    Anything Pope Francis does (or fails to do) can be undone (or done) by a successor Pope Dominic or Ignatius.

  61. JoyfulMom7 says:

    Gregorian Chant is not difficult and yes! you can learn to sing it. Buy yourself a copy of the Parish Book of Chant (now in its second printing). Go to youtube and look up chants with which you may already be familiar such as Salve Regina, Adoro te devote or Jesu Dulcis Memoria. Learn the Ordinary parts of the Mass, all found in the Parish Book of Chant and found on youtube.

    Join the Church Music Association of America – check out their website (this will keep you busy for weeks and weeks!) at

    Explore the wonderful liturgical music work Jeff Ostrowski has done on Corpus Christ Watershed

    There are so many wonderful resources on the web that are free. You can download the Gregorian Chant Coloring Book here –…/86647770-gregorian-chant-co.pdf

    I could go on and on with resources but search around on the web and you’ll find treasures!

  62. Jack Hughes says:

    A friend and I are meeting up on Saturday to discuss what we need to do, this is in preparation for a a war council after Easter (lots of Juventutem members are back home with family at the moment) at which I hope every male member (at least) to be present.

  63. CharlesG says:

    @Fr. Fox: Regarding resistance to chant, I think that one way to develop more of a culture of chant is to use a lot of the increasingly available English language chants (Bartlett’s SImple English Propers and Lumen Christi Missal, Missale Parvum and others), and another way is to combine propers with hymns so as not to drop hymns cold turkey. One can combine propers with hymns (although hopefully appropriate and more traditional hymns). People are accustomed to hymns and so I think it would be a mistake just to do away with them (although aat least the quality of hymn needs to be improved). Once people are a little bit more aware than they are now of the concept of chant and of the propers, one can introduce the odd Latin chant pieces, e.g. for parts of the Ordinary, or some simple chants from Parish book of chant as “alius cantus aptus” during the mass. Check out CMAA and Corpus Christi Watershed for lots of free resources.

  64. Charles E Flynn says:

    The Renaissance of the Mass Propers, by J.J. Ziegler, for the Catholic World Report:

    After years of neglect in many American parishes, chanted Mass propers are making a comeback, thanks in part to new online resources.

  65. Blaine says:

    Thanks Father. Perfect thing this sailor leaving the Navy (resigning my commission in ten months to go home and work the family business) needs to hear – some clear marching orders. You couldn’t have timed this post better. I was just explaining to someone yesterday why I didn’t want to be in the reserves, and the energy required to reach this goal is of my reasons (among many others). I wavered a bit in my decisions because everyone thinks I am crazy. You’ve reminded me to be strong. Thank you so much again.

  66. John Nolan says:

    Kathleen10 – a previous musical education (particularly choir training) can be a positive disadvantage when learning chant. Untrained singers find square notation easier to use. I know of one singer who was baffled by the simple and logical Gregorian clefs and couldn’t get the idea of key signatures out of her head.

  67. MattH says:

    Reference Father Z’s #2 and albinus1’s suggestion to get involved in activities of your parish – there is a movement (partially inspired by Father Z) to get more traditionalists involved in the Knights of Columbus, and get those who are involved in communication with each other. ( Shape the future of the lay organizations by being part of them!

  68. PA mom says:

    As for me, I will return to the EF, hopefully monthly, while the children are in school. Noise, crumbly snack wrappers and two bathroom runs that we were, we WILL return.
    I will keep learning, and looking for a opportunity to request it at my own parish.

  69. pmullane says:

    Fr Fox:

    “> An ecological approach to contraception (think about it).”

    You sir, are a genuis.

  70. Hidden One says:

    You know, if half of the people who have commented or will comment on this thread live so as to become worthy of canonization, the traditionalist movement would flourish no matter what was thrown against it.

    I know which half of those commenters I intend to be part of.

  71. PMullane:

    Thanks, but if memory serves, it was C.S. Lewis who pointed out the “ecological” argument against contraception. But if it wasn’t him, it was someone else who gave me the idea.

    Evo, Charles–my point about chant was this: when priests and music directors say, “the people don’t want it,” another priest (me) isn’t going to change their minds. Giving them music books won’t change their minds. What will change their minds? Let’s see…it’s what they think the people want that is at issue…so…maybe…if…people come and tell them?

    That’s my point.

  72. veritasmeister says:

    We pray as we believe. So how about we tackle the root of the problem, namely the doctrinal irregularities that have besieged the traditionalist faithful for some 50 years? Once we can get the Holy See to clean this up, liturgical matters should naturally fall into place.

  73. Robbie says:

    I’m new to this website, but I’m glad to know there are so many fighting for the Traditional Latin Mass. I’ve written to most of the priests in my area to see if they’re interested to saying the EF Mass, but I’ve gotten no responses. Maybe the emails got lost!

    Anyway, this is my question. Other than Cardinal Burke, are any of the other American Cardinals allies when it comes to greater use of the Latin Mass? If any are, a letter writing campaign to that Cardinal might also be a great place to start.

    I do whole heartedly endorse any plan that involves Cardinal Ranjith and Liturgical reforms.

  74. jjjorge1 says:

    Here’s a chance to hear the man himself speak – this cuts through to the heart of the matter …
    I saw this interview with Cardinal-Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, now Pope Francis on EWTN that was made prior to his elevation to the papacy.  It’s about 15 minutes long.
    It’s fantastic – this man is going to be a great pope.

    God Bless

  75. capchoirgirl says:

    Couple comments:
    Wesley: About the EF unfriendliness, YES…I have seen that too. Starting to wonder about it…
    Pat B: Gregorian chant IS hard, and I’m a musician. Once you’re *taught* how to read the music, it’s not too terribly difficult. But how many people can read chant? My parish tried to teach people when the new translation came in, because we were going to do more chant, and still, I hear very few people in the congregation doing it. You throw together Latin (which most people are uncomfortable pronouncing) and a musical notation they can’t read, and you get lots of people not chanting.
    Also, some chant, even when you *can* read the notation, is quite complicated, especially since chant has no regular meter.
    I like chant. I chant my breviary, and as a Dominican, we have many lovely chants that I adore doing, especially our salve. But in Mass, I can totally understand when people think it’s difficult–because chant *is*.

  76. HobokenZephyr says:

    “But Father, but Father!” you are absolutely right. It is totally incumbent on those who support the use of the EF to make it virtually impossible for your parish priests to say “No.”

    One can apply many tactics, but the best to me is to (1) create a “stable group” within a geography, (2) “brand” it and (3) get out into the community and do things. Engage your fellow parishioners! Dont have a ministry of yourselves for yourselves. Most Catholics have never been exposed to Latin, much less the EF in any way. If you want more people to be interested, teach them why you consider it to be of such importance. We’re not a haven for saints, we’re a hospital for sinners, right?

    This is particularly important when your “stable group” includes people from across parish geographic boundaries. Pastors hate forum shopping or pick-n-choose parishioners because it opens them up to claims of sheep stealing. Make it easy for them and they will help you out. If it’s easy for him, doesn’t cost the parish money and — God Forbid — gets him cheerful volunteers for the collection counting in perpetuity [or some other job nobody wants, or some funding for one of his pet projects] I think you’ll find a much more welcoming embrace. Nobody likes a whiner, right?

  77. oldCatholigirl says:

    Lots of good suggestions here, first by Father Z, of course. It is a lot easier to be involved in a parish if you don’t have to drive an hour to get there, as I have been blessed to find out lately. Some people don’t have that option, but there are usually occasional events that they can support. This business of being cold or unfriendly is a separate issue. We should all remember that whatever we’re given [including persecution, I’m afraid] is a gift from God–so there’s always something to smile about. Alas, some of us older people may look sour when we’re just feeling peaceful–gravity having taken its toll on our facial muscles. I think it’s a good idea for help to be given to newcomers to the Mass: at least, the ever-helpful “red books” from the Coalition in support of Ecclesia Dei; then, if possible, print-outs of the Propers. And perhaps a poster explaining what these things are.
    Thank you, jjjorge1, for the heartwarming video. I wonder if anyone knows where to find it in its original Spanish, without a translator. I’m not worrying about his accuracy. I have a friend who says that Argentinean Spanish is unique in some ways, and I’d like to hear for myself.

  78. Charivari Rob says:

    re “ecological approach”

    Sounds like what Pope Francis started saying already – see his installation homily yesterday.

  79. AvantiBev says:

    Push for:
    1) If you are in an Ordinary Form only parish, get yourself onto the liturgy committee so that you can help compose those petition prayers said after the Creed. Or if your parish is like the one near our family’s summer cottage and they ask for petitions from the congregation PIPE UP. Educate yourself about what is happening in Nigeria, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Mali, etc. Then keep inserting as many prayers for those “Christians being persecuted by jihad” as you can. Just slipping in an acknowledgement of WHO is doing the persecuting and WHY will spread enough discomfort to prick some consciences that prefer the “see no Islam/hear no Islam” of our lame stream media and even some of our Western bishops.
    2) If you are really serious about helping “the poor”, first get yourself Thomas Sowell’s books such as BASIC ECONOMICS so that you understand that in a free market economy this was not a static group; not before family breakdown and “great” society programs anyway. [Take it from someone who was herself in that lowest quintile for many a year in her early career.]
    Second get serious about sharing what you know about the Sex Revolution – you fellow Boomers I am talking to you — with as many young girls as you have influence over. It is from a future generation of women that the counter-revolt will come and only when it comes will there be hope for the fatherless children of the West. Stop simply harping on the evil “fruit” (abortion, divorce, shack ups) and attack the whole tree. If you really want to help “the poor” encourage the overthrow of the impure, unchaste, undisciplined entitlement behaviors of the past 45 years.

  80. PatB says:

    capchoirgirl: “Once you’re *taught* how to read the music, it’s not too terribly difficult. ”

    But that is what I said. Chant is not hard to SING. It is not hard for average people to actually vocalize chant–unlike, for instance, opera, which is hard to SING even if one can read the music.

    I also said it was easy for us because we had heard it all our lives, and that it will take some getting used to by people who have not. It will take some effort. It will take patient teaching. Please don’t give up. It is worth it! It will take time. And the toddlers who are hearing chant now, will find it much easier to sing than do their young parents. We are in the process of reviving our musical culture, which is always harder than mainting it.

  81. PatB says:

    Musicians: I’m an “old dog,” so I can say this. “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” If you want Gregorian Chant in your Masses, why not start a children’s choir? They’ll be easier to teach.

    I live in a city that has had a world class group of musicians singing Gregorian Chant in the context of the OF, TLM, and Dominican Rite Masses, without interruption, ever since Vatican II. An angel appeared to the founder of the group and told him to keep the tradition alive. He wisely had a children’s group also. (They sing like angels!) Now, one of those former children is successfully implementing a schola in a neighboring city. They are wonderful! You, too, can do this!

  82. cpf says:

    Absolutely correct! It’s “go time”.

    Just one example: In Columbus, Ohio there is a thriving parish, once a dying one. The Traditional Mass is given the “prime time slot”, being offered each Sunday at 9am. It is also the only place in the city, perhaps the state, that has a soup kitchen open 365 days of the year! As I understand it, the pastor also cares for former drug addicts, the unemployed, etc.
    I offer this just as an example that: Caring for the Poor and the Traditional Mass are NOT mutually exclusive! Right worship and works of charity go together. They should inform each other.

  83. The Masked Chicken says:

    Doesn’t Columbus, Ohio also have a Pontifical College? Do they do the EF, there? Wouldn’t that be a logical place?

    The Chicken

  84. pseudomodo says:

    Acardnal and McCall1981

    I think the Pope may be onto something!

  85. Margaret says:

    I apologize if this is a dreadfully silly question, but– if chant is, for some reason or another, one of the main obstacles to getting a regular EF Mass off the ground, would it be okay to simply recite the propers? I attend the OF in Latin regularly (Opus Dei) and our usual practice is to simply say the various antiphons, as nobody has the time, and very few have the training, to have chants prepared for daily Mass.

  86. McCall1981 says:

    @ Pseudomodo

    Sorry, I can’t open the link. What is the article about?

  87. ji says:

    Wesley D
    One of the priests that says the EF at our church has a favorite expression “Too much idle chatter.” After hearing this several times, it hit home. Less talk, more prayer. Have been to several EF parishes and find the people reserved which is different than “unfriendly.”

  88. codefiend says:

    “Now, take off the damn training wheels and RIDE THE BIKE!”

    ha! love it.

  89. AnnAsher says:

    I am waiting to see if Pope Francis does indeed sell off Church property and give it to the poor. Likewise waiting to see if he avails himself of the papal apartments…. I am excited to witness and benefit from what Pope Francis will do. I am not depressed or afraid. I think, considering what we have seen of him thus far, that his charity will extend to those of us who prefer the Usus Antquior.

  90. Ann:

    I read elsewhere that there are legal barriers to the pope selling off church property and treasures. While he remains supreme legislator–and thus could probably get around it–it’s not something easily done. It would surely cause diplomatic issues; can you imagine the reactions of preservationists? Can you imagine the Italian government, for example, not reacting?

    So, theoretically possible, but the chances are vanishingly small.

  91. Here’s a thought for all our traditionalist friends who are worried about Pope Francis doing liberal things, in or out of the liturgy.

    Take note of his gestures toward the Orthodox.

    Nothing would dash hopes of reconciliation with the Orthodox like the sort of monkeying around that progressives pine for and give traditionalists nightmares. Even if he, himself, was amenable to such changes (and I don’t have any reason to think so), he would be wrecking a lot of slow, painful progress if he took those steps.

    Even tampering with clerical celibacy–a rule the Orthodox don’t follow, at least not in the same way. The Orthodox would, I think, take that not as a positive, but as a sign of instability.

    And, as I indicated above, the closer we and the Orthodox move together, the harder it will be to do those things–more to lose.

    For that matter, this is an argument you can make to any non-knee-jerking progressive. Simply point out to them that ecumenism was a great project of Vatican II (and of the Lord: that they may all be one); and if the price of healing a 1,000 year old rift is using more Latin and chant, do they really want to dig in their heels and frustrate that great outcome?

  92. McCall1981 says:

    So is re-unification with the Orthodox a realistic possibility? I mean, could it realistically happen during this pontificate? I’m not sure how seriously to take the “gestures’ that have been made towards the Orthodox.

  93. Traductora says:

    Excellent, excellent ideas! The best defense is a good offense – traditionalists should be known right away for their charitable labors, their work with youth, their willingness to cooperate in any area possible, etc.

    I think BXVI did exactly as you said: he gave people the training wheels and got traditionalists accepted more than they ever were before. At first there was hostility, but I think now that many novus ordo people, while not totally won over, at least don’t think it’s all a vast right wing conspiracy anymore. And progress is now possible, perhaps even more, paradoxically, because the new pope doesn’t seem that interested in it and therefore some of the more hostile people no longer feel they have to make their point.

    Btw, I was at St. Peter’s for the 5:00 pm mass today (Latin and Italian) and the struggling but well-intentioned male schola/choir did some chant – but sang Nearer My God To Thee in Italian during communion! Sigh. That song is very popular in Europe, which actually uses a number of American folk song or popular hymn tunes in Novus Ordo masses. Double sigh. However, I guess it’s better than anything by Marty Haugen, so maybe in its own way it represents a step forward?

  94. rdschreiner says:

    I sent Father Z the email that kicked this thread off. I very much appreciate that he has used that to motivate us traditionalists to advocate for our vision of the Church and to implement practical actions to relate that to what Pope Francis has outlined. With that said, I will not at all be surprised if some of the possible changes I listed will happen. Here are some more for your consideration:

    6) Pope Francis calls the Third Vatican Council to consider and implement his vision of a Church for the poor and that is poor.
    7) The Curia is effectively abolished and replaced with an international Synod of Bishops for oversight and distribution of responsibilities to national Bishops’ conferences.
    8) Allowance is made for receiving Communion by divorced members without annulments.
    9) Pope Francis calls for development of RM 4, which effectively rewrites the liturgy (think ICEL 1998).
    10) Pope Francis insists that all dioceses dedicate 10% to 20% of their (and parish) budgets to the poor. This is the only one of the ten I’ve suggested that I would support, since we try to do this at the parish that I belong to, along with all the “social justice” programs we have.

    I’ll be interested in your reactions and additions to this list.

  95. nykash says:

    Great ideas, Father Z, thank you.

    Your fifth point – “Get your ego… out of the way” – is very important, in my opinion. Here in Detroit, I’ve witnessed people that claim to be traditionalists effectively toss their pastor under the bus because he wasn’t be traditional enough for them. While altar rails and Latin help to reinforce our Catholic identity, attacking a priest does quite the opposite.

  96. pseudomodo says:

    Sorry acardnal

    Front page local paper. Asian couple getting married and groom had a dog for his best man! Or was that beast man?!

    Or was he just confused over mans best friend?

  97. Suburbanbanshee says:

    There’s a big ol’ difference between being reserved and quiet and prayerful, and being unfriendly and suspicious of strangers. Alas that some EF congregations are the latter.

  98. Skeinster says:

    We have an EF parish, so some of the above suggestions will not apply. And we have grown geometrically, since getting our own church, so that it’s hard to tell who’s new and who just usually goes to a different Mass than oneself.
    I think we are a friendly and welcoming bunch- but we’re Texans, so that might be it. My concern has always been that we are sometimes a little too intense in trying to get newcomers on board. I would never want us to see people as simply numbers to swell our ranks and not as individual brothers and sisters in Christ. And, “intense” can sometimes be read as “crazy”, if we’re not careful. That can be a facet of leaving the ego behind- not everyone needs to hear our history of Vat II (Vols. I, II and III) right off the bat or agree with us on everything from the get go.
    Prayers for all those who want the EF, but still don’t have it.

  99. Hank Igitur says:

    Let’s hope our efforts are successful in the short as well as long term.

  100. Anabela says:

    Yes its important to help the poor. But let us not dare forget where the real poverty is in our Church today and the complete lack of belief in Christ’s presence in the Holy Eucharist. Jesus is continually left alone in His Church and is continually abused at the Holy Mass where we see the teachings of our Church ignored time and time again regarding the Liturgy. Perhaps the Lord allowed our dear Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI to resign because we do not deserve such a Pope, a Pope whose teaching was continually rejected by so many. When we saw the Holy Father release a dove on the last Sunday of January, a seagull viciously came to attack the dove but it managed to get away safely. All these things are little signs and somewhat foreboding signs. I am very wary of this new Papacy I am sorry but I think we are in for real and significant changes and not for the good. Yes I pray for Pope Francis and hope perhaps I am wrong. But I and others believe that the Church is now going through its Calvary (think about all the Events from Gethsemane to the Cross) before it rises again in its glory at the end.

  101. capchoirgirl says:

    Chicken: You know, I don’t know what the Josephinum does vis-a-vis Mass. That’s a good question. I know we do have some Latin Mass in our diocese.
    Pat B: Gotcha, thanks. I just hate sitting through Mass being frustrated at music that no one sings and that isn’t well done. Bee in my bonnet. :) Now, at places where everyone knows chant, and it’s used….ahhhhhhh. But I also like hymnody. We do have some good hymnody! (“some” being the operative word, there…)

  102. future_sister says:

    *sigh* the one problem being at a liberal college. Liberal folks at church. and of course I don’t have a drivers license not that it matters I’m not allowed a car on campus anyways. I finally found one other traddy here, pure chance, I commented on a facebook meme about a Sunday reading that had been posted and it was the TLM reading but an NO friend posted it so I asked if the readings happened to be the same that week when this guy commented they were similar. We’ve been friends ever since, slowly plotting how to at least get Father’s chair out from behind the altar and put the tabernacle where it belongs (we figure that will be a start), and trying to raise money for a crucifix behind the altar (liberal parishioners: but… but… we don’t want to be reminded of that!! Especially our kids. We can’t have them reminded of that!! (no lie, that’s what they said)) I sent him this article last night and then we were up all night plotting ideas and finally starting to put things into action. If anyone wants to help, I’m making and selling gorgeous rosaries as a fundraiser for our plans. My friend decided to call us the ” League of Lepers” apparently Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said at one point those of us who prefer the EF will be treated as lepers so here we are. Working change bit by bit… on crummy college student money… Also I was asked to teach RCIA next year… :) Finally get someone teaching the truth since I heard the lies taught by the director. It will be an interesting year. Prayers much appreciated for us college kids. Our FOCUS missionaries aren’t helpful either… we aren’t even allowed to turn on EWTN in the Catholic student center when they’re around “ugh, it’s that old traddy channel” they’d rather watch protestant Bible shows… or Fringe… whatever that is…

  103. Woodlawn says:

    “As many celebrations of the older form of the Roman Rite as possible in as many places as possible as soon as possible.”

    Doing our part. On Wednesday of Passion Week, the Knights of Columbus Woodlawn Council 2161 Traditional Latin Mass Guild (part of that Traditional Knights organization previously mentioned) organized a TLM at St. Titus Church in Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, that was offered for the intentions of our new Holy Father. The celebrant was Fr. Gregory Plow, TOR, of Franciscan University of Steubenville. Photos of the Mass can be seen here:

  104. Rachel K says:

    Um… I don’t think we should push for anything, as the Church is not a Political party that can be lobbied. But we can push on our own spiritual life as Michael Voris suggests in the later posting, which is after all our job as lay people. Through living out our faith in our own circumstances we further the growth of the Church and bring the love of God to the world and so convert it. I am not keen to think or analyse more than that. Seems there are too many chiefs here and not enough Indians!

  105. Rachel K says:

    @Capchoirgirl, I had understood from the Vatican II document on Sacred Music that Hymnody is associated with the Liturgy of the Hours and not the Mass. Does anyone else have knowledge on this please?

  106. priests wife says:

    someone asked if unity with Orthodox could realistically happen during this pontificate…it would take a miracle…but I feel like Benedict’s focus was on unity in the West (with the Ordinate and such)- and Francis’ focus is on the East

    one thing to remember- there is not total unity within the Orthodox Churches- so it would go ‘brick by brick’- with various bishops and perhaps patriarchs coming in union

  107. Pingback: How It Starts | Tradical!

  108. Pingback: How It Starts | Tradical!

Comments are closed.