A 1st TLM experience: “I had the sense that that Host was REALLY consecrated.”

Some will find this provocative.  I find it to be true.

I had to make a call to a local parish office today, and while chatting with the secretary, found out that she attended her first Extraordinary Form Mass on Christ the King Sunday. [Last Sunday of October.] I asked her what she thought, and her response was:

“I had the sense that that Host was REALLY consecrated.”

She went on to explain that she understands that the two masses are the same, [Both are valid.] but that she definitely felt there was something more solemn going on in the Sung Latin Mass.

Her comment made my day, and I thought it might make yours as well!

This comment opens up many issues.

First, she isn’t saying that a Host is more consecrated because it is the Extraordinary Form.  To be clear: When I consecrate a Host in the Ordinary Form it is not more or less consecrated than it is when I use the Extraordinary Form.  Nor is it more or less consecrated were I to consecrate using the Maronite Rite or the Ambrosian Rite or the Byzantine Rite or the Braga Rite.  Nor is it more or less consecrated than when I am eventually named a monsignor or, for my sins, a bishop, cardinal or pope.

However, considering Mass merely from the point of view of the bare minimum of validity is dangerous.

We mustn’t fall into that trap.

Mass is more than the sine qua non, all important, valid consecration.  Mass is a whole.

Yes, something more is going on during a Missa Cantata in the traditional form, and even more in the Missa Solemnis and even more in the Missa Pontificalis.  It is important that the older, traditional form be revived, relearned, reclaimed far and wide.  We need its influence.  We need it to rehabilitate liturgical worship in the Latin Church everywhere.  No initiative of “New Evangelization” or of renewal of the Church will have any concrete effect unless we renew our liturgical worship.

THEREFORE, I am deeply grateful and encouraged when I hear from seminarians that they and most of their seminarian colleagues are open to and/or eager to learn and then to use the Extraordinary Form.

Benedict XVI gave us a vision and a mission.  The vision and the mission remain.  They have not been superseded.  They have not been cancelled, annulled, repudiated. As I have said before, it is time to take the training wheels off and ride the damn bike!  If you want the TLM, work for it.  If it is hard, keep working.  This is NOT the time to ease up.  This is exactly the time to keep pressing onward, petitioning for more and more and more, not just for little crumbs off the liberal cool-kids’ table.  Young priests will be with you.  Support them 250%.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Liturgy Science Theatre 3000, Our Catholic Identity, SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.


  1. joan ellen says:

    Father. Z says…”Yes, something more is going on during a Missa Cantata in the traditional form, and even more in the Missa Solemnis and even more in the Missa Pontificalis.” “…something more…”, “…even more…” and “…and even more…” are the words that speak to me. “We need its influence. We need it to rehabilitate liturgical worship in the Latin Church everywhere.” I need the rehabilitation from it also, Father. You have pin pointed the difference between the OF and the EF with the words “…something more…” . Thank you so very much.

  2. Hank Igitur says:

    Yes we must all work for it but many bishops must also understand they have no authority to “ban” the TLM and must accept that Summorum Pontificum is in force and stop using tactics and deceptions to prevent the TLM from being offered.

  3. Robbie says:

    It’s a shame Benedict, as part of SP, didn’t require all parishes to offer a TLM as part of the weekly Mass requirement. I understand this might have caused certain segments of the Church to march on Rome, but requiring at least one of the weekly obligation Masses to be a TLM would have been a real accomplishment. The solemnity and reverence of the TLM would have almost certainly had a beneficial effect on the NO. Most liturgical abuse would have disappeared quite quickly, or at least been drastically reduced. Still, I understand why he and the Vatican felt it couldn’t be done.

  4. Muv says:

    Perhaps what she really meant, without really being fully aware of it, was that she really had the sense that that host was consecrated, rather than that she had the sense that that host was really consecrated. Just something to do with the position of the word really, really. So she wasn’t in that case thinking in terms of degrees of validity, but trying to find a way to express the fact that the solemnity of the sung Latin Mass enabled her to become more acutely aware of the Real Presence. [Of course that’s what she meant. I added what I added precisely because someone would get this wrong.]

  5. mburn16 says:

    For a time, not that long ago, I was regularly attending both NO and EF, and I could help but think that we were like a baker with all the ingredients, but no idea to put them together into the perfect cake. I loved the richness and reverence and formality of the EF. And I loved the accessibility, participation, and…I don’t know quite what the word is, so I’ll call it “literalism” of the NO.

    I’d really like to see what a TLM mass, except given in the vernacular with the NO reading schedule + the last gospel, and with the quiet prayers (minus the PatfotA) raised to an audible voice, would look like.

    Always in the pursuit of better worship.

  6. iPadre says:

    There is something that you as a priest cannot explain about celebrating the Extraordinary Form. It’s not the same as the Ordinary Form. It just isn’t. Your priesthood is enhanced. It’s an interior something.

    I had been to the EF a few times, but one time something happened inside of me. It is something I just can’t express in words. It was a grace in the very depth of my being, in my soul. Before that Mass, I was intrigued by it, when I had the interior grace, I fell in love with it. That is why I always tell people, you have to go more than once and just be at the Mass. Don’t read, and don’t try to follow a missal. Let the Mass speak to your soul! But you have to be open.

  7. iPadre says:

    PS: After that grace, I had to learn to say the Mass in the EF.

  8. Heather F says:

    Robbie: So small rural parishes that have one mass per week because they share a priest with three other parishes would be forced to use the TLM and only the TLM?

  9. Robbie says:

    Heather F

    I understand the limitations, but I also think cluster parishes could have developed a plan that would accommodate the rule. For instance, a cluster parish could have a rotating TLM. In other words, a three church parish would get it the TLM every third week. Like I write though, I know there are limitations that would prevent this from working well. And, sadly, this is an academic discussion because it’s not going to happen in your or my lifetime.

  10. disco says:

    I had almost the same experience at my first TLM. I just was overcome with the knowledge that the host was actually Jesus in the flesh. I had always believed it but not like that. Hard to explain I guess.

  11. mamajen says:


    The second half of your (first) comment is interesting to me. It’s helpful to know that even you, a priest, had to give it several tries before it really “clicked”. The last time I went (many years ago now), it just didn’t work at all. I can understand on an intellectual level why people prefer the TLM, but the language aspect frustrates me. I intend to try again, though.

  12. RJHighland says:

    Thank you Father for posting these reflections of these first experiencing the beauty of the TLM. I love it because it takes me back to the first TLM may family and I attended. The beauty, the reverence, and the holiness grabs you. During that first mass I read the english translation of the prayer and not only do the prayers lead you to humble yourself, they lead you seamlessly to the climax of the mass the conscecration and the the final preparation for reception in word and form bring you to fully understand what is truly taking place before your very eyes and you are part of it. My wife has told me she has seen a golden triangle glowing softly about the host when it is elevated during the TLM. For me, and I know others will disagree, I find it difficult to worship any other way. Once you have a great steak dinner with salad, sauted mushrooms and onions, large backed potatoe with sour cream and chives and a fine red wine it is hard to look at a McDonald’s hamburger, fries and a Coke the same way and when given the choice why would you choose a hamburger over a great steak. I can’t think of a good vegitarian medifore for those that have gone meatless but you know what I mean.

  13. joan ellen says:

    Hank Igitur says:
    “Yes we must all work for it but many bishops must also understand they have no authority to “ban” the TLM and must accept that Summorum Pontificum is in force and stop using tactics and deceptions to prevent the TLM from being offered.” Hank Igitur, I agree wholeheartedly.

    Robbie says:
    “It’s a shame Benedict, as part of SP, didn’t require all parishes to offer a TLM as part of the weekly Mass requirement.” Robbie, I agree with you also wholeheartedly, and have been thinking of just asking parish priests I know if they could offer a TLM at just one of the Masses during the weekend.
    I would ask especially those priests who already know how to offer the TLM (EF). Of course, I may have to offer some sort of help…in terms of talking it up a little. Or a lot.
    For a priest who does not already know the EF, I might just casually say “Fr., are you interested in learning to offer the EF Mass?”If he’s not interested, I’d leave well enough alone for the time being. If he was interested, I’d surely let the priest who does know it know about the other priest’s interest.

    And all of my asking would have to be done with a non-condescending attitude towards the OF.
    I can do that if I remind myself that new Catholics often need the OF as a beginning Mass experience.
    I’d be tickled pink if a priest would agree to offer the EF for a special occasion…such as Our Lady of Guadalupe’s Feast Day on Dec. 12. If that went well and was well attended, I’d ask Fr. for another Feast Day Mass, or even get bolder and ask for a monthly Mass.

    If I found no success with the above approach, I may just ask Fr. if the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei could be done on occasion as a beginning. This does work well in some parishes. Maybe this is the way to go first. Like Fr. Z’s “brick by brick”.

  14. joan ellen says:

    RJHighland says:
    “… when given the choice why would you choose a hamburger over a great steak.” RJHighland, especially a great steak cooked to perfection.

    That is why, in my way of thinking, the EF is the Mass for me. Not that I do not attend a NO Mass, I do on occasion.

    The EF Mass to me is the most positively perfect way, in all of the world, to worship God, the Creator. I am always so pitifully grateful for the opportunity to worship Him at the EF Mass.
    I think iPadre is saying something similar with his words: “It was a grace in the very depth of my being, in my soul.” Thank you, iPadre.

  15. dominic1955 says:

    “So small rural parishes that have one mass per week because they share a priest with three other parishes would be forced to use the TLM and only the TLM?”

    Wouldn’t that be wonderful!

    The thing about bare validity that Fr. Z mentions is key to understanding this issue. Really understanding it, not just getting talking points. I see far too many people say insipid things like, “The Mass is the Mass” or “What matters is its valid” and so on. Absolute inanity.

    Its true, on one level, that validity certainly matters. Obviously. But how does one “value” the various Western non-Roman Rites and all the Eastern Rites by saying all that matters is that they are valid? Do they not each have their own value based not on mere validity (which is a granted) but rather on their own unique traditions?

    This is where the NO wears thin-what tradition, praytell? The Roman Rite? Ha! Sure…compare them side by side and tell me that with a straight face. The NO (and all its related liturgical books for the other sacraments) are, at very best, a neo-Roman Rite. This, I surmise, is what that lady was getting at when she had the sense that the host was really consecrated at the traditional Rite. There is more richness in the authentic tradition than in fabricated “tradition”.

  16. Fr_Sotelo says:

    The problem with the steak (Tridentine Mass) vs. the hamburger (Novus Ordo) comparison is that it speaks of what you are “getting out of Mass.” But isn’t that precisely what we tell people is the wrong reference point for liturgical piety? If it is wrong to dwell on what you are feeling, experiencing, enjoying, and savoring during Novus Ordo Mass, why is it now proper that people at Tridentine Mass dwell on what they are feeling, experiencing, enjoying and savoring?

    About two years ago, I spoke with a Catholic lady who accidently dropped into a parish with TLM for a holy day of obligation. She said that she, her husband, and the kids “hated it” so much–that it was so cold, aloof, and “dead” to her–that the whole family rushed about their city looking for a Novus Ordo in the evening in order to attend Mass all over again and “get something out of it!”

    The steak vs. hamburger image of my savoring Mass and estimations of where one “feels God is really there” do not always work out in the TLM’s favor.

  17. datritle says:

    I am a seminarian for the diocese of Harrisburg ,Pennsylvania, and I want to add my voice and the voices of MANY of my brothers here at St. Charles Borromeo seminary to the choir of those already calling for more E.F. Masses!!! I will be preparing to say the tlm before my ordination, you can count on that!

  18. mamajen says:

    Good point, Fr. Sotelo.

    Hate to admit it, but my feelings after my first TLM were akin to those of the family you mentioned. Not everyone can just plunge into it and feel something profound.

    I can see, though, how the feelings often come from very different places in the TLM vs the NO. One is more centered on God, while the other (too often) focuses on the priest and people. If the feelings arise because the mass is properly ordered (even if it’s the NO), I think that’s a good thing.

    People do need to understand that their mileage may very when it comes to feelings, and feelings aren’t the important thing. It sure helps, though, to “get” something out of mass.

  19. Bruce Wayne says:

    I want to follow up on Fr. Sotelo’s helpful illustration of why a liturgical rite is not some sort of panacea for curing all problems within the body of the Church.

    When I finally had a chance to bring my mother to one of Fr. Rutler’s novus ordo high masses in NYC she afterwards gripped my arm tightly and declared with eyes wide that it was the most wonderful mass she had ever attended. But she is still happy at her own N.O. parish in Atlanta.

    Now that I am back in Atlanta I only attend the EF as I can’t stomach the NO parishes or liturgies I have tried. My own experience was that I had to grow into the EF as the first time I attended many years ago I found it hard to follow and had to watch what others did for my cues to kneel and stand and so forth. I needed to get over the “learning curve” before I could truly participate and be present for the EF Mass.

    I have offered to take my grandmother to it if she wanted to re-experience the mass of her youth and she has absolutely no interest at all. She really loves the monsignor at the parish she attends and only goes to the one specific mass each week (in order to not be stuck at one of the terrible Life Teen Masses).

    The point of my anecdotes is that they are just that, anecdotes. That is the case with those who fall in love with the EF at their first attendance or who are (sadly) repelled by it. Assisting at the Mass is quite subject to the natural volatility and variety of human attitudes and personalities. People might more often than not just get out of attendance what they put into it. Even within the EF there are those, like me, who attend the high mass but some people overwhelmingly prefer the low mass. It can take a while.

    Clearly we can agree on the necessity of the priest to try and arrange for whatever rite is being used to be done with the utmost in solemnity, attentiveness to the rubrics, and even traditionalism. Clearly the EF offers up its own set of unique challenges and opportunities for grace to the participant as the time-tested Roman ritual of the Church, the mass of so many saints, etc. But, it is best to avoid treating a liturgical rite as if it is an ideology or will immediately regenerate and fix all things in this vale of tears.

    It needs to be more widely available because it is a good and beautiful thing, because it is a living heritage, and because it can help so many among the Church Militant, both priests and lay, maintain and grow in their faith.

  20. sw85 says:

    Yes, the issue here is not what the Masses accomplish but how well they *visibly present* what they accomplish. The TLM is obviously more overtly worshipful, with the long periods of silence, the greater number of genuflections, etc. There is often very little in the OF Mass that seems obviously worshipful. Moreover, the fact that the action in the TLM is glued to the altar whereas so much of the OF is often celebrated from a nearby podium or even a chair, impresses a kind of sacrificial finality upon the soul in a deeper and more visceral way than merely hearing the words of the consecration spoken aloud can accomplish. One often has the impression that the OF was written by academics for academics: the lectionary is didactic and everything is spoken aloud, all the mysteries unveiled; where the TLM was produced by mystics, contemplatives, and visionaries all.

  21. Sonshine135 says:

    @Fr_Sotelo- I was about to ignore what you said above about the steak vs. hamburger analogy when I suddenly realized that you were correct. If an Extraordinary Form Mass attendee is going to “get something out of the Mass”, they are missing the point, and they stand in danger of falling into the trap that Cafeteria Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo Mass fall into. The beauty of the TLM is that one can more reverently give of oneself in honor of the sacrifice presented unbloodied.

    The above should not be taken as a jab at the Novus Ordo either. One can also give of themselves there as well. I am simply saying the EF is more conducive to the giving.

    To be charitable as well to RJHighland, I have used that analogy myself before, but one could say that the “steak” is in what we can give, not in what is received.

  22. Nan says:

    I had a similar experience at my one and only Divine Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic, for the centennial of my canonical parish. I assume that when the priest at Mass calls upon the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is there. In Old Church Slavonic? I knew the Holy Spirit was present. The priest would like to do it again and wants to gather a group of people who want the Divine Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic but he says the parish didn’t like it so he hasn’t done it again. I’d definitely go!

  23. Geoffrey says:

    “One can also give of themselves there as well. I am simply saying the EF is more conducive to the giving.”

    Indeed. Long before I was able to attend my first EF Mass, merely learning about it gave me a greater appreciation for the OF Mass. It was as though I suddenly thought “so THIS is what is going on at Mass”, even though it can be hard to tell at the average lackluster OF Mass.

    There is often a lot of discussion regarding how to get more EF Masses; any suggestions for how to get more OF Masses in Latin?

  24. RafqasRoad says:

    Fr. Zuhlsdorf,

    You stated:

    “…Nor is it more or less consecrated than when I am eventually named a monsignor or, for my sins, a bishop…”

    You had me chuckling at this. Be careful what you wish for, good Fr., Pope Z.??????????? THIS WOULD BE AWESOME!!

    More seriously though, MBurn16 at #5 asked an intriguing question about a TLM with everything set in place as it would be for the TLM but in the vernacular…might I suggest that as of the first sunday in Advent this year, 2013, it will be here, as the final Anglican Ordinariate form mass formula with everything else that is necessary to properly offer this mass, along with prayers etc. is to be released. I am very receptive to the AO (as one who was raised an Anglican for the first 13 years of my life before wandering into the fever-swamp of Seventh Day Adventism (have already outlined this previously so won’t put Fr. Z.’s readership to sleep with its retelling)…The AO is completely and utterly above board, licit, valid and good. It was the second wonderful thing Benedict XVI did for us alongside SP and in my thinking would be a fabulous ‘third way that the Bishops just can’t say no to…C’mon Fr. Z., how’s about offering an AO mass??? We have a good Anglican presence down in the Shoal haven where i’ll be living after the 3rd December this year and many other traditional forms of Protestantism. An AO would fit right in here, and as a baptised Anglican it is a rite validly open to me (and I expect many others) that would be easier for a harried, stretched-thin rural priest to learn. Baptised Anglican, Confirmed Maronite, mivnog to a Roman Rite area with neither AO or MR anywhere near close…just call me the ‘Heinz 47 varieties’ of the Catholic Christian world!!

    if I can ferrit out any Maronites there, and they’re interested, I’m also going to see if they would wish to pool for the expenses of a MR priest once a month or so.

    Waffling now…so many possibilities!! Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI had true vision in establishing the AO and SP. Pope Francis is concentrating on other things that also need attention e.g. straight talking about life, sin, the devil etc.. So lets work hard people..and Roman Riters, don’t forget the possibilities of an AO; its got legs and bags of potential; it is something that is in truth dear to my soul.


    Aussie Maronite, soon to be South Coast Catholic.

  25. RafqasRoad says:

    I know I am taking a liberty here, but in light of accessibility issues (thanking internet providence that Fr. Z. uses WordPress and not blogger) but knowing that I am committing the sin of cross-posting to draw a faithful reader’s attention to something I think she would find most apt, I call upon your magnanimity to allow this through and thus alert ‘Supertrad Mum’ to an important fact mentioned by Peter Hitchens that is germaine to her own blog articles…peter Hitchens, the conservative, Christian brother of the late Christopher Hitchens, (and I mean conservative in terms of faith and culture not solely politics) agrees with her and openly states that ‘they’ve won’. Supertrad, you’re right on the money, sister. http://www.abc.net.au/qanda
    is all the proof that is needed. They’ve won. Thank God for God and that while we’re at the ‘they’ve shaken free of what they saw as fetters’ re Psalm 2 and Psalm 14, we know how things will conclude – the serpent’s head is crushed. Pray for Christ’s Church, our holy priests of all rites, the lay faithful, monks and nuns, plus all of good will who fight for faith and life.

    Many thanks and blessings,

    Aussie maronite, soon to be South Coast Catholic.

  26. Jean Marie says:

    I feel the same about the Byzantine Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy. Where I live it’s very hard to get to a TLM so I occasionally go to this church. I love the icons, the incense, the chant and the reverence. When we receive Holy Communion it’s by spoon – no EM’s! There are actually many similarities between the TLM and Divine Liturgy. Our Lord in the tabernacle is always at the center and the priest faces Our Lord throughout the liturgy. When I leave the church my heart is soaring. I do not get that experience at a NO Mass though I know the Mass in valid.

  27. Andkaras says:

    In Scripture we hear the Lord saying that we do not receive because we do not ask , and when we do ask ,we do not ask rightly. Growing up in a family full of women, the inevitability of many suitors showing up on my fathers doorstep came to pass. Unhappily many of these young men lacked the most basic skills for addressing a man of my fathers esteem. Not a few were sent packing . A few made it through the gauntlet of my parents love for us, yet even some of them were lacking. many marriages failed ,unfruitfuly. Some made it. The NO mass seems to be plagued with a similar circumstance . What should be a solemn and beautiful expression of worship is punctuated by the cringing of those subjected to the missteps and irreverence of others .How culpable they are is left to God. One often thinks that it would not be beyond the possibility that God would be so offended as to allow a mini-earthquake or a lightning strike upon the offenders ,much the same as we expected our father to deck one of those “suitors” who addressed him thus -“How’s it goin’ Pops?”. ouch. The NO can be done reverently I know this, and thank you to all the good Priests who keep a tight reign on things .But that Extraordinary suitor is the one that my Father is waiting for.

  28. Lin says:

    datritle……….GOD bless you! Please come to the Erie diocese!

  29. Lin says:

    What percentage of priests today could say the TLM without a lot of study? Would it come back like riding a bicycle? Would churches have to be remodeled again?

  30. samwise says:

    Thanks Fr. Sotelo!

    The EF shouldn’t be prefered for modernist/sentimental reasons, nor should the NO. Fr. Z gave a much more logical explanation than the original quote or even iPadre’s take on it.

    Let’s never be remiss in “giving a reason for our hope” in Christ

  31. Salvelinus says:

    I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, or maybe I’ve been watching too many You Tube videos lately, but I still think the change in the Mass was to purposely kill the faith.
    I know I sound paranoid, but there is no doubt that the numbers (attendance, Catholics in the pews believing the Real Presence, Catholics voting for Pro-abortion Liberal Politicians) have drastically declined since the Mass of Paul VI.
    I was listening to Catholic Answers the other day and Jimmy Aiken literally attacked and cut off a woman that said the New Mass was “different”. Catholic Answers is no friend of Traditionalists.

  32. St. Epaphras says:

    For me the expression “get something out of it” in regard to Holy Mass just doesn’t fit. It’s a lot deeper than that — that is, the experienced differences between the two forms of Mass. This is subjective, of course, but here are a few thoughts.

    The Catholic Faith is so much more than the sum of its parts. It’s not just liturgy or canon law or sacraments or Scriptures or personal prayer and piety or anything else. It’s a whole LIFE, a world view, a proper understanding of God, the universe, the past, present and future, and oneself. And every single thing in our Faith is centered in Jesus Christ, in Who He is, why He came and what this means to each Catholic — a relationship with Him. The full Catholic Faith is one whole; it makes a clear picture of God, of man, of life itself. Therefore all that is within it, when it hasn’t been messed with, will show Jesus Christ, the God-Man, very clearly.

    To me the traditional Mass shows very clearly, much more clearly than the NO, the truths of the Faith and of Who Jesus is. Offertory: very clearly a sacrifice. Rubrics: reverence, deep worship, unworthiness of both priest and people. Prayers: see Rubrics above and add humble petition and gratitude. The whole atmosphere tends toward the receptivity of Truth.

    This Mass shows God the Father and God the Son much more clearly to me than the NO does. The Canon isn’t a short eucharistic prayer sandwiched in between all the stuff we get to “do”. The sacrifice of Calvary is the point of the TLM and it is very clearly shown. Its theology fits what I was taught from the old catechisms because it’s the same as has always (traditionally) been taught. It fits perfectly with the whole traditional Catholic world-view.

    I like my Catholicism straight, and to me the traditional Mass is the pure Faith expressed in liturgy. It is not pieced together. It doesn’t give me the feeling that a lot of writers wrote the story and then cut and pasted it together. At no point do I get jarred out of one type of worship to have to participate in an entirely different level of worship.

    In any event, none of it is about me, although this comment is highly subjective. This Mass simply fits with what I believe and what the saints have written and with all the beauty of our Faith since the apostles.

  33. samwise says:

    That’s why, with Summorum Pontificum, it’s a both/and situation and not an issue of validity, etc.
    In other words, TLM is not going extinct–but, it’s also not going to be ‘required weekly’ as mentioned above. The NO and TLM, in that order, will always be available.

  34. Cordelio says:

    That the parish secretary “had the sense that that Host was REALLY consecrated” is very telling. Just like traditional church architecture and art function as a catechism, so too does the traditional liturgy. The Tridentine Mass inherently emphasizes Catholic doctrine on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Divinity of the Eucharistic Victim, as well as the role of the priest as alter Christus. The NO Mass deemphasizes Catholic doctrine on these points – and moreover was explicitly intended to do so by its creators and proponents, in order to make it more welcoming to our separated brethren.

    The Tridentine Mass is a very odd show if God is not really present in the Eucharist. The NO is a very odd show if He is. That the period since the institution of the NO has coincided with a demographic collapse of the Catholic Church – including a doctrinal collapse, in which most nominal Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence anymore – is perhaps more than a coincidence.

  35. Joseph-Mary says:

    “It is important that the older, traditional form be revived, relearned, reclaimed far and wide. We need its influence. We need it to rehabilitate liturgical worship in the Latin Church everywhere. No initiative of “New Evangelization” or of renewal of the Church will have any concrete effect unless we renew our liturgical worship.”

    AMEN to this! Save the liturgy, save the world!

  36. Gratias says:

    The TLM is allowed by the bishops only for a tiny minority. We are very few but will keep the Latin mass going for other generations.

  37. mamajen says:

    Oops…reading my last comment again, I should have specified good feelings. I’m sure most people knew what I meant, though. My negative feelings about the TLM certainly weren’t because God was the focus, or because anything was wrong with the mass itself.

  38. mamajen says:


    Bishops have no choice but to allow the TLM. There doesn’t need to be a tiny minority, but their will be if people continue under the misconception that they need a permission slip from the bishop.

  39. lucy says:

    In our diocese we continue to go to our bishop begging for a non-territorial traditional parish. He won’t even give us an appointment. He has stated through our pastor that he fully supports the traditional Mass, yet when met at a local event and thanked for his support he clearly looked visibly confused. Please pray for us!

    MamaJen – please do give it more time to see its beauty. We started attending traditional Mass 9 years ago while following around one of the only priests to preach the truth. Then we attended once a month only; then every other week. Finally, our 7 year old child at that time asked us if we could please stop going to the “noisy Mass” because she could not pray. We decided then to fully attend the traditional form. It does take time to understand and fully appreciate the beauty and richness. The first time I read the prayers that first day, I said to my husband, “We’ve been robbed.” He agreed and was also angry that the nuns lied to him about the new Mass just being the same only in English. Not so! Our family has grown so much in our faith over these last 9 years. I now understand many of the Latin words; always know where we are by the priests movements or what he’s most recently said audibly. I find that I can now pray the Mass, whereas at the new Mass I’m continually waiting for my next response. I find that interferes with prayer. At the traditional form, once the priest makes the sign of the cross, I begin praying the Mass along with him. The prayers are so beautiful. My heart feels full to bursting at Mass! All of our sons serve at the Mass. Our girls participate in the girls’ choir. The kids prefer it over the new Mass, but we all fully understand that the new form is valid. We often go to daily Mass, which is the new form.

    We await the joyful day that our bishop will cooperate with God’s good grace and grant a traditional parish in our town.

  40. lana says:

    My first experience at the TLM was that I felt as if I hadn’t been to Mass at all. I had to stick with it for a while before I fell in love with it.

    The reason why I stuck with it came not during a TLM. It came during a very beautiful Holy Hour with Exposition, choir, incense, etc. I realized that, when life is all over and done, I will wish that I had given God the best and most beautiful, most reverent worship I was capable of. And in most cases, the EF wins. (Though I have seen some very beautifully-said NO Masses as well.)

    I spent some time at the EF wishing for some NO things, then at the NO wishing for EF things. By now I have learned to be happy wherever I am, because it is God’s will. But when I have a choice I go to the EF.

  41. mamajen says:

    That’s how I felt too, Lana.

    I will definitely try again at some point. Right now our Sunday mass schedule is such that the TLM really isn’t practical for our family, but the evening mass on Holy Days is always a TLM.

  42. lana says:

    @Cordelio, Michael Voris compared some poll results between Catholics and Orthodox Christians (I forget which denomination, but they have the old liturgy and the Real Presence). They also have lost their belief in the Real Presence. So it is not just the liturgy that is causing this.

    Recently I quoted the figures for the drop in priestly vocations by Msgr Knox, from 16% to 2% between 1860 and 1910. (The Belief of Catholics)

    The great rebuff of Humanae Vitae came while the EF was still in use.

    Our Lord said to a saint during a Mass @ 1850: “You see this Church brimming with people? All except two of them would just as happily have gone to the theater.”

    So, it is not just the liturgy, and neither will just the liturgy save everything.

  43. prayerisouronlyhope says:

    As I have attended the TLM the majority of my adult life, I cannot comment on the OF. However, as Godmother to all my grandchildren, I do take my responsibility seriously and try to help them understand and pray the Mass. Two of my older granddaughters received their First Holy Communion last year, so I suggested to our priest that their catechism classes this year might focus on actually learning the Mass. They both can read the prayers, but they are not really following the Mass – not watching the priest or trying to stay abreast of where he is. I hope that if they can learn the parts of the Mass, and what is actually happening on the Altar, they will have a greater appreciation for it. They will be using the book, “The Mass Explained for Children”. I have told all of them, since they were little, that we witness a true miracle at every Mass we attend – the Consecration. I also try to help them correlate the Latin with the English (“Gloria” – Glory; Pater Noster – Our Father, etc.) so that they will find it easier to follow. I don’t think they have really absorbed the miraculous nature of the Consecration yet, but I will keep trying.

    As for “getting something” out of the Mass – when you have small children you are trying to control during Mass, it’s very hard (at least for me) to “get” much! :) I’ve always hoped we were all receiving graces for being there and trying our best.

  44. LadyMarchmain says:

    Lucy: That is so very beautiful! Thank you for describing your family’s journey. I had the same reaction of feeling robbed, but I understand the Lord willed that possibly, in part, so that, after 40 years in the wilderness, we would realize we cannot take this treasure for granted.

    Mamajen, do try again! I think it might help if you could attend an NO mass in Latin first, as I had done that for years before attending the TLM. As you know the NO mass very well, this would help you adjust to hearing the familiar prayers in Latin. If that’s not an option, there are many youtube videos of the TLM (low mass, high mass, orchestral mass) that you could watch while following along in a missal to familiarize yourself. However, I would say, perhaps none of that is necessary, rather, prepare yourself to a different kind of mass participation, fast from midnight, go to confession on Saturday, all with a mind to receiving Our Lord in communion on Sunday. Arrive early, and read the prayers before mass and communion you can find in the 1962 Missal. Then pray for the grace and disposition to receive Our Lord worthily and to join in the prayers of the mass, even though unfamiliar.

    The very first TLM I attended was with a friend and our children (6 of them, yet surprisingly quiet), and on comparing notes later we discovered we had both experienced the same thing. At first, it seemed strange and odd, where were our responses? Then there was a moment where we each thought to ourselves, “I see. It’s going to be like this for the whole mass.” At that point for each of us, something happened internally, like a gear shifting, and we both began to pray.

    My earlier description of Christmas presents pouring from the altar occurred at the first TLM I attended following Summorum Pontifucum; that was actually my second TLM.

    So do try again! For years, my friends at the NO Latin mass I attended would tell me, “It’s not really the same as the TLM” which baffled me at the time. I understand now, and gaining this understanding has been a great blessing.

  45. mamajen says:


    Ain’t it the truth. I’ve spent plenty of masses pacing the vestibule, straining to hear over rowdy kids in the crying room, exploring the church basement with a particularly noisy baby, helping with potty breaks, etc. I don’t feel guilty because God doesn’t expect the impossible, but it would be nice not to miss any of it. On the plus side, at least my boys are helping me shake my Novus Ordo-based understanding of “participation”!

    Lucy and LadyMarchmain,

    Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s nice to learn how different people came to prefer the TLM.

  46. Imrahil says:

    As an aside, dear @lana,

    You see this Church brimming with people? All except two of them would just as happily have gone to the theater.

    Two points, first: And why should they not? Second: They actually did go to Church after all.

  47. Imrahil says:

    Now some actual question:

    Recently I quoted the figures for the drop in priestly vocations by Msgr Knox, from 16% to 2% between 1860 and 1910.

    Percentage of what? Like… male Catholic populace?


    Also, forgive me, a priest is a glorious gift and all that… but still, the thought did strike me that if you don’t send nine out of ten in mission countries, I wonder what the Church did with as great a number of priests.

  48. Bea says:

    A 1st TLM experience: “I had the sense that that Host was REALLY consecrated.”
    Posted on 7 November 2013 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
    Some will find this provocative. I find it to be true.

    Yes, so True and to those who find it provocative:
    I would quote:
    (As in the movie:) “A Few Good Men”:
    “You can’t handle the Truth!”

    At a TLM
    You KNOW you’ve been to Mass.
    You KNOW God has been adored.
    You KNOW He is there.
    In the wordings, in the actions, in the silence ALL directs you to His Presence.

    At a NO
    I spend half my time fighting distractions, trying to keep HIM in focus.
    Valid, yes. Reverential, not so much.

    But as with so many NO priests and bishops, They just can’t handle the Truth.

  49. Gail F says:

    That was exactly my experience at the first EF Mass I attended — that something more was going on at the consecration. However, when I returned the next week to my regular parish Mass, I felt the same thing! The Mass was no different, but I understood it differently (on a visceral level) having been to the EF Mass. It was the feeling of “getting” something for the first time, I realizing what it was supposed to be. That is why I think Pope Benedict was wise to promulgate the EF.

  50. lana says:

    I find it really helps with the distractions to read along with the priest. Magnificat has everything, including the secret prayers. And it makes a HUGE difference to find a priest that says the NO slowly, so you can pray along, instead of just listening.

  51. Gail F says:

    Salvelinus: Because A follows B does not meant that A was caused by B. There has been a drastic drop in attendance at pretty much all Christian churches, and Jewish synagogues as well. It is a sign of our times. I think it is a mistake to suppose thta what happened after Vatican II was unique to the Catholic Church. There was an immense disruptive change in all of Western society. I believe that it’s one the Catholic Church, and probably the Jews, will weather, because they have weathered everything else for millennia. The other Christian churches (“ecclesial communions”)? Don’t know, but wouldn’t place a bet on most of them….

  52. Gail F says:

    Lucy wrote: ” I find that I can now pray the Mass, whereas at the new Mass I’m continually waiting for my next response. I find that interferes with prayer.” YESSSSS!!!

  53. mamajen says:

    Same here, Lana. Reading helps me greatly (I think in part because I’m hearing impaired).

  54. Bea says:

    Hi Lana, just to clarify:

    “The great rebuff of Humanae Vitae came while the EF was still in use.”

    “Humanae Vitae” was issued July 25, 1968
    “Missale Romanum” (Novus Ordo Mass) was promulgated April 9, 1969, to take effect on the first Sunday of Advent of that year.

    However, “Inter Oecumenici” was issued September 26, 1964 and came into effect March 7, 1965.
    This is when the changes actually started in the US and in Canada, perhaps other counties, too (although, the official date was in 1969, world-wide).
    We were married in the “new” NO rite on September 1967, with the priest facing the people and this had already been going on for at least a year in our parish. People were getting “broken-in” for the changes which were to come.

    This is when the exodus began. The priest that married us left the priesthood, was laicized and got married. Another one from that same time became critical of the Church. He too left the priesthood. I could not see it then but in retrospect I see that this rebellion (including the rebuff of “Humanae Vitae”) came about with an “anything-goes” “everything is changing” attitude and this started with the most important changes in the soul/heart-felt sense of reverence that left the laity and the priests with the sudden changes in their Heart of our Faith, The Holy Mass. We were conditioned before this to obey and pray, no questions asked. Now everything was starting to be questioned and vocations fell. Gratefully our young priests are now also questioning, but questioning in the right direction. Perhaps they will restore what the past generations have been robbed/deprived of.

    May God Bless their endeavors.
    May God Bless you, especially, datritle, and your fellow seminarians.

  55. VexillaRegis says:

    I’ve only been to four or five EF Masses, none of them with music and mostly attended by the few gloomy and über-serious people we have in our parish (and a couple of ordinary catholics.) . While the liturgy itself is always very reverent and beautiful, I feel so selfconscious – am I kneeling too much, too little, should I stand for the gospel when half of the congregants don’t and so on. I’s hard to ju be with Jesus. Getting reprimands afterwards for singing too loudly or answering too silently doesn’t help either.

    The EF Masses don’t seem to be the best alternative for me, as you would understand. But I just love Latin and high quality music. So I went to a NO Mass in Latin and with the readings and sermon in the vernacular. Then came the elevation. At the words “Hoc est enim corpus meus, quod pro vobis tradetur” I was so awstruck I will never forget it! The sanctuary was just glowing and Jesus was mine :-)


  56. lana says:

    That is interesting, Bea, I did not know that. Thank you for sharing.

    For myself, I have always felt reverence for Our Lord in the NO Masses. Perhaps because it is all I had known. I can see how going from EF to OF would leave one feeling moorless.

    But also, I think I can understand and pray the EF better than I otherwise would, if I had not been hearing the prayers in the vernacular all these years.

  57. lana says:

    The other ‘first impression’ that I got from the EF Mass was ‘wow, I can see why everyone thought only the priest was supposed to be holy’. The priest seemed so far away and remote, and it seemed as if it was all supposed to be just him and God. That was the impression I had.

    I am not sure how I had picked up the notion that the laity are supposed to participate in the Mass (by offering themselves and their lives along with the Eucharistic sacrifice). Probably by the responses, by hearing the Eucharistic Prayers, etc. one does pick that up unconsciously in the OF. I can see from my teenager’s behavior at the EF Masses that I also would not have been reading the Missal and not understand anything. So, it is two different ways of learning. I am glad to be able to do both ways and that I can bring my kids to both.

    Now that I know that, I was ready for the EF. I think it is good to have both.

  58. Fr_Sotelo says:


    I hear this comment of people wanting a traditional parish and I ask “does your group have the money saved up? Or are you expecting your bishop to spend a million dollars to give you a free building and property?”

    The bishop cannot give away that amount of capital without the permission of the finance council, and they would not approve of that for a small Latin Mass congregation. In my diocese, we don’t have buildings to give away like that. And if a group wanted to meet with the bishop and make that kind of request, I could easily understand the bishop not wanting the meeting.

  59. robtbrown says:

    Father Sotelo,

    In the Archdiocese of Kansas City the FSSP used to share a church with a garden variety parish. Finally, an old church was purchased (Lutheran or Anglican, I think), renovated, and now is the home of the FSSP Latin Mass Community. I won’t hang for it, but I think it was privately financed.

    I assume it’s juridically an oratory.

  60. lana says:


    Sorry, next time I will not quote from memory, I do not do a good job.

    The Msgr. Knox quote is regarding alumni of a public school in England. (Msgr. Knox, The Belief of Catholics, (1927) Chapter 1 – The Modern Distaste for Religion) So this must include Church of England members. From Our Lady’s tears at LaSalette, we know that Sunday Mass participation was faring as badly.

    In “Secular Saints” by Joan Carroll Cruz, in the chapter about Blessed Anna Maria Taigi (1769-1837) “Often at the moment of Communion Anna Maria saw the Host come to life. … Once, He spoke softly to her: ‘In this crowd of people that you see in the church there are scarcely two souls truly sincere in their love. The others are equally ready to come to church or to go to the theater.’ I don’t think the way I wrote it earlier made it as clear, but I gather Our Lord would like us to prefer Him to the theater.

    Imrahil, I wanted to say that I really enjoy your posts. Very informative and interesting points of view. God bless and thanks for posting.

  61. Fr_Sotelo says:

    Dr. Brown:

    Some Latin Mass communities are blessed with wealthy benefactors, plus being in the vicinity of a property and church building which is shuttered and is willing to sell for a dirt cheap price. The difficulty in my diocese is that we are bursting at the seams and haven’t a building to spare.

    The FSSP would not go for the “share with a Novus Ordo parish” model and the deal for getting a vacated church building the bishop was hoping to let them use fell through. The parish finance council where the building is located refused to give it up without money up front because they want to retire the debt from the new church they built. As you know, canonically, the bishop cannot just “confiscate properties.” Worse than fighting over TLM vs. Novus Ordo is a Catholic fight about money and property!

  62. acardnal says:

    Fr_Sotelo wrote, “The FSSP would not go for the “share with a Novus Ordo parish” model . . .”

    The FSSP did agree to share a parish with the archdiocesan priests in Minneapolis. FSSP priests serve the parish and celebrate EF Masses daily and Sundays but priests from the archdiocese also celebrate a NO Masses there on Sundays and Holy Days.


  63. acardnal says:

    VexillaRegis, if possible for you, travel to a parish where you can attend an EF missa cantata before coming to any final conclusions about the EF Mass. I find them glorious! And I have traveled/will travel many miles to attend one.

  64. RJHighland says:

    Dear Fr. Sotelo,
    Wow did you totally miss what I was saying. If you read what I said prior to the steak/ hamburger comparision it was about a more complete expression and understanding of what the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass is. It is not about me at all except that I have showed up to worship and honor God. To humble myself as a look into the gateway between heaven and earth. It is all about preparing me to spiritually and corporally encounter God. It affects you on all levels, physical (kneeling, incense, chant, silence) and spiritully (reading, praying, the flow of the readings and music, reverent reception of our Lord) it is full and complete. At my local Novus Ordo Parish it was like fast food nearly like drive through. No bells, no incense, commotion in the Nave and Sanctuary before mass, contempory music, no visible tabernacle, irratic worship, truncated and omitted prayers in the Novos Ordo, lack of reverence during the reception of communion, lose of a sense of the sacrificial aspect of the mass in that in my local parish it is portrayed more as a banquet not an offering. That its what I was making the comparision to not what I was getting but that by the completeness of the TLM it brings you to humble and offer yourself to Him that created , became man and died for you. As to the fullness of your parishes and there is no place for a FSSP parish to start is rather surprising in this era of the Church. But you know in most cities and towns the mega Protestant Church’s are packed that doesn’t mean they are being taught the truth. They are being told what they want to hear. Quantity does not necissarily mean quality. I think the true test of a Dioceses or parish is how many vocations they produce, that is the fruit of the faith. If your parish is generating vocations and the diocesan seminaries are full your more than likely pleasing God. If your seminaries are empty or below replacement averages, not producting religious vocations, or your number of parishes are declining and more mega parishes being built your probably on a dying branch and we know what happens to dead branches. Not saying that is your cituation that is just my experience.

  65. bernadettem says:

    As one of the above posters mentioned, another choice is to attend the New Anglican Use Ordinariate Mass. There are Catholics who are unhappy with the OF, but are not comfortable in the TLM.

    Yes there are some Anglican prayers in the Mass, however they are theologically very Catholic.

    There is also much from the TLM and very, very little from the OF. The Canon is the Roman Rite Canon, however, the wording used is closer to the TLM or Sarum Use. As before Anglicans had many different liturgies and customs and within the New Liturgy the rubics allow for parishes to choose some of the customs.

    The Asperges, Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, Last Gospel, Angelus have been added, although the Asperges was used in the Anglican Use for the past 30 years and the Angelus.

    I asked my Ordinariate priest if he said all the secret/quiet prayers used in the TLM and he does.

    Even though we have a small group meeting in a former classroom at a Catholic Church, we are growing and now offer a low Mass (using the Confiteor). Pope Francis has now allowed Catholics who have not made their Holy Communion and/or Confirmation to join the Church through the Ordinariate. We also have protestants from different denominations who have now come into the Church through the Ordinariate.

    This is just a suggestion for those Catholics that have no access to the TLM or feel more at home in a very traditional liturgy in English. Latin is also used in many parishes for some of the Mass.

  66. Mike says:

    Fr. Soleto, may I suggest that feelings can be relevant, insofar as they cultivate the Catholic (truly Catholic, not some modernist idea of Catholic) faith within people? So for example, if feelings are the measure of how good a Mass is, but those feelings say, “I want my Mass to have rock music, because that’s the music I get most into, and I want Mass to be celebrated versus populum, because I like seeing the priest’s smiling face”, then those feelings are worthless. Why? Because they do not look at the liturgy from the correct angle, and give it a people-centered focus rather than a God-centered one. Further, specifically with regard to music, these feelings fail to be in line with what the Church continues to regard as sacred to this day (I’m no supporter of Mass versus populum, but unlike music, I can’t say definitively that someone is going “against the rules” by liking versus populum when the Church presently permits it—even if there are very solid pro-ad orientem arguments which I often use).

    On the contrary, if someone assists at the TLM and is captivated by the beauty, reverence, etc., and thus is reaffirmed in his Catholic faith,and all that Catholicism has traditionally held dear, then those feelings are relevant. The feelings are, in essence, saying that Catholicism is right, and they reinforce the already-present knowledge that stated the same thing. In the first example, however, the person’s feelings about what the Mass should be like were viewing the issue from an erroneous perspective, failing in obedience to the liturgical books, and contradicting the constant tradition of the Church.

  67. VexillaRegis says:

    acardnal, thank you for your suggestion! I would love to attend an EF Missa cantata, but, alas, there are none in our corner of the World. Being an organist and singer I could of course ask to play myself, but since I play at the (very reverent and tasteful) OF Masses, I don’t have the time to “organize” the EF Masses too.

    Ideally the Mass would be celebrated in the OF, ad orientem versus, in Latin (gregorian chant ), with readings, sermon, bidding prayers and traditional fourpart hymns in the local language. That’s what I think! :-)

  68. Imrahil says:

    Dear @lana, thank you for your answer and for your kind words!

    While it is not worth discussing about that love most be honest love with a decision to love, I personally prefer not to inquire into the “truly sincere” and “really truly sincere” and “really really truly sincere” part. To quote a often quoted and often misquoted phrase of our Holy Father in an I think appropriate place, who am I to judge – even myself. Even should our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and sees everything.

    Our Lord may have told her so, and that He wants us to prefer Him to the theater is a no-brainer. Only, I guess the Catholics in the same Mass would have answered, if asked “Do you prefer to go to Mass or to the theater” either with “what’s the question, I’m a believing Catholic, okay? Of course I do!” or “I happily go to the theater enjoying the innocent pleasure, but I know Mass is the higher thing” or also “to me the Sunday obligation is a burden, but I fulfil it, because I do what Our Lord tells me to do, and then I happily go to the theater”. Note, the theater can be replaced by the pub, and “nach der Meß die Maß” (“after Mass the double-pint”) is a good German Catholic saying.

    They would not be lying when saying so, and I see no reason to judge either of them, not even the third, who belongs in a sense to the “those who do not see and yet believe” category. He must be told, both in information and by rhetorics applying to feeling, how great Our Lord is.

    In a way, in fact, he must be bribed to be good. But that is not bad; “every day that I’ve been good, I’ll get an orange after food”. The child (who says so) is not a Manichee, he does not see any contradiction between being good and receiving rewards… (Chesterton, quoting from memory. The child’s verse is, I hope, accurate, and should link to the work via a google search.)

    Thanks for the information on the Msgr Knox quote. Interesting, but it puts it into perspective… for the Anglican clergy is not to compare with the Catholic one, for the plain and simple reason that they have no celibacy, but a normal (though religious) profession and are able to keep up a familiy. [* or maybe not, again. As we are talking about public schools, the choice would often be between doing work as a cleric, or doing no work at all as a gentleman…]

  69. joan ellen says:

    Thank you all for your comments. They are a huge help as I sort n separate ‘the wheat from the chaff’ re: the differences between the OF and the EF.
    Gail F thanks for the reality check…re: “…drastic drop in attendance at pretty much all Christian churches, and Jewish synagogues…” and the ablity of Catholicism and Judaism to survive.

    Bea, thanks for the chronology…”“Humanae Vitae” was issued July 25, 1968,
    “Missale Romanum” (Novus Ordo Mass) was promulgated April 9, 1969, to take effect on the first Sunday of Advent of that year.
    However, “Inter Oecumenici” was issued September 26, 1964 and came into effect March 7, 1965.
    This is when the changes actually started in the US and in Canada, perhaps other counties, too (although, the official date was in 1969, world-wide).
    We were married in the “new” NO rite on September 1967, with the priest facing the people and this had already been going on for at least a year in our parish. People were getting “broken-in” for the changes which were to come.”

    Imrahil, your words “…love most be honest love with a decision to love,…” and “He must be told, both in information and by rhetorics applying to feeling, how great Our Lord is.” In my experience my decision to love includes feelings that are generated either because they came before the decision or because of the decision. Point: Our Blessed Lord is worth feeling love for and deciding to love Him. Thank you for including both in your comment.

    Mike said: “…they do not look at the liturgy from the correct angle, and give it a people-centered focus rather than a God-centered one.”
    At today’s OF Mass, Fr. spoke of a Requiem Mass (tied into the Poor Souls.) His point was that that kind of Mass was the same as other Masses…in short…about Our Lord and His death and Resurrection. Fr. said the Mass is not about the deceased and the survivors…so no “Up, Up and Away” for a deceased air force pilot. A Hymn re: Our Lord’s suffering, etc is to be chosen.

    I could not help but notice that the vocalist at Mass sang/led songs that were people oriented and not Christ oriented. I would surely like to encourage the vocalist to lead us in hymns that are about the suffering/Sacrifice of Our Blessed Lord, but, I think I’ll ask some miracle Saints to intercede quickly. Unless someone(s) on this blog know the words to language in a conversation with such a vocalist that could be used to encourage the use of Christ oriented hymns.

    lana said: “I can see how going from EF to OF would leave one feeling moorless.” I realize that you probably mean like a transfer from one form to the other. And vice versa. As I am one that goes back and forth between EF and OF…those are excellent descriptor words for the experience…”…feeling moorless.” I’m beginning to think that some souls, like perhaps mine, would do better by sticking to one form or the other rather than be open to both forms and attend both forms. There is something that is amiss or remiss in my soul offering Mass to the Father in both forms.

    I’m thinking Byzantine parishioners do not go back and forth with the Latin Rite, neither do the Maronites, etc. And though those are different rites, perhaps the same practice may be a prudent decision for some who go back and forth in both forms. Just thinking.

    Fr. Sotelo, “The steak vs. hamburger image of my savoring Mass and estimations of where one “feels God is really there” do not always work out in the TLM’s favor.” I may be off base here, but I think you are saying that when we pay attention to our feelings we may be paying more attention to us …rather than to Our Blessed Lord and the worship of Him at the Mass.

  70. RJHighland says:

    Something just dawned on me about Fr. Sotelo’s comments on my Steak and Hamburger medifore. It is the same kind of twisting of the truth I experienced when my family and I were kneeling to recieve communion at our local Novus Ordo Parish when no one else was. Another Fr. Sotelo I know locally forced my daughter to stand to recieve our Lord. The excuss he presented was that we as a congregation should be uniform in worship and that we were acting holier than thou. It is a typical miss direction used by progressives.

    Joan Ellen,
    One thing that help me in my journey was to compare the liturgies of the Methodist Church, the Novus Ordo Missal and the Missal of 1962. Lay them along side each other and read through them section by section comparing prayers and what is going on at the altar and in the nave. It is very similar to what Fr. Z does on this blog but do it for the whole liturgy. First read the Missal of 1962, then the Novus Ordo then the Methodist Book of Prayer and see the shrinking liturgy befor e your very eyes. Cramner did this to the Church of England in his life time. It took the Catholic Church 1,962 years to get to the same point as the Angilcians. 400 yrs. or so.

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