The catholic Left hangs on every word that the Pope has, might, could utter about global warning and redistribution of wealth. They can’t wait to see the next airplane presser or daily off the cuff fervorino, which they hold to have virtually magisterial authority. When he says something about not talking about abortion or not judging a homosexual, he can’t possibly be wrong. Pope Francis! The first Pope ever to smile or kiss a baby, the first Pope ever to preach mercy can’t possibly be wrong about anything… except perhaps anytime he mentions anything about women… but I digress.
During his Wednesday audience today Pope Francis endorsed that fathers beat their children. HERE Italian text HERE
Una volta ho sentito in una riunione di matrimonio un papà dire: “Io alcune volte devo picchiare un po’ i figli … ma mai in faccia per non avvilirli”. Che bello! Ha senso della dignità. Deve punire, lo fa in modo giusto, e va avanti…. Once during a marriage meeting I heard a father say: “Sometimes I have to beat the children a little… but never in the face, so as not to humiliate them.” How beautiful! He has an understanding of dignity. He has to punish, but he does in the right way, and he goes forward.
So, Pope Francis thinks it is good that fathers beat their children. Che bello!
I look forward to discussions among the catholic Left about the proper way to beat children. Should fathers use a stick? A belt? Just the hand? How about mothers and a wooden spoon? Just make sure to avoid hitting them in the face and you are good to go, and maybe watch your strength. Right?
I am confident we will learn a great deal from their unhesitating support for Pope Francis’ comments today about beating children.
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Personally, I never thought that a swat on the backside was a bad thing. I received a few when I was a kid, and I didn’t turn into a sociopath or a homicidal maniac. My parents used that tactic as a last resort (very rarely), I am sure – and it had its desired effect – it got my attention. Boy, did it get my attention!
Of course, the Left will just ignore these comments. Anything that doesn’t fit in with their agenda is ignored, while comments that agree with their agenda are trumpeted for all to hear as “The New Gospel” according to whomever.
Curiously, the first reading at the OF Mass today speaks of God’s loving discipline of his children.
(Hebrews quotes Proverbs Ch. 3.)
Reading 1 HEB 12:4-7, 11-15
Brothers and sisters:
In your struggle against sin
you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood.
You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as children:
My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord
or lose heart when reproved by him;
for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines;
he scourges every son he acknowledges.
Endure your trials as “discipline”;
God treats you as his sons.
For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline?
At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain,
yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness
to those who are trained by it.
I believe I agree with the Holy Father inasmuch I only use my left fist.
Interesting to me is that – among those who don’t dismiss corporal punishment at all (and the others are almost all who speak out) – the proverbial slap-in-the-face (or literally, -to-the-ear) is considered the normal way of conferring it if it becomes necessary (and “given at the right time, hasn’t ever done damage”, as the grim proverb goes), while spanking the backside is considered harsh in comparison, and using instruments to do so downrightly brutal. As is the method of “giving the paw”, according to translation tools called “pandy” in English, which was once used in schools.
Add to that: around here.
Can I remember this when one of my five sibblings drive me to extreme madness?? Can I tell them, you know, the Pope said, “¡Que bello!” about this issue…
Just kidding. To me, is much more worrying what he also said: No se podría expresar mejor el orgullo y la conmoción de un padre que reconoce de haber transmitido al hijo lo que de verdad cuenta en la vida, es decir, un corazón sabio. (Sorry I just read in in Spanish) It couldn´t be better expressed the pride and commotion of a father who recognizes having transmited to the son what really counts in life… THAT IS, A WISE HEART.
I´m sorry, but I thought it was FAITH… And Pope Francis doesn´t mention once this fact. The text can be given to any person (religious or not) and it would be greatly accepted… well, except the “¡Que bello!” part…
I´m also with commotion… but with a different kind.
PS: pardon my english… I´m rusty.
I was spanked with the wooden spoon and definitely think I benefited from it. It was always a very controlled “ritualistic” discipline – never done with anger or passion. I would first go to my room to reflect. My dad even used the traditional “this will hurt me more than it hurts you” line each time.
Of course there are Proverbs 22:15, 23:13-14, and 29:15. I do, however, think that the premeditated correction of children with anything but the hand is excessive, and I am glad that society has for the most part left behind physical punishment.
When people cry and babble on about how damaged and hurt they are from being spanked by their parents or the nuns at school, they never stop to think “maybe I deserved it?”
I’m 33, so spanking was not as prevalent as prior years, but my parents still believed in it. I remember only a handful of times that I had a red glowing handprint on my backside. They didn’t have to spank us very often, because when they did, their point was well taken. You can’t reason with a child who is under the age of reason(or refuses to reason) as to why something is wrong or harmful to them. However a quick smack is understood at any age.
Yet another, now what’s the word, have to be careful here, let’,s say faux pas.
Since the left doesn’t blink when it comes to killing children, they’ll wholeheartedly support beating them as well. My mother made me go out and cut a switch to wack me. I deserved it then and could probably use a couple of wacks today. Good thing we don’t live in the same town! Love you Mother!!
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This “Che bello” does not appear in the link you gave. The alleged quote of the Pope seems not to be there. Do you have a more concise source?
Holy Father knows that we lack a discipline!
I can’t say I was ever beat, at least not by the connotation that word has to me. But I was most certainly spanked, and I can’t think of a single time where (a) I didn’t deserve it (b) it caused anything more than a few seconds worth of pain, and (c) it failed to convey the lesson that words had already failed to convey to me.
So physical discipline has always seemed natural to me, as long as it is administered justly and not in a state of anger, which clouds judgement. And of course, it should be balanced with positive reinforcement, too.
It is interesting, however, to see some of my friends who I don’t think use physical discipline, and they mostly seem to be successful with admonishment, time out, no dessert, etc. All were part of my upbringing, too, although that wasn’t always enough to keep me in line.
My parents spanked me, until the belt actually split in two as my two brothers and I were on the receiving end as my mother wailed away. She stopped using it and, instead, used her fingernails to grab the inside of the upper arms – that was far, far worse.
My question when the pope speaks is usually, does he know and mean what he said? I wonder, frankly, about his age and, in this case, how he was raised as a kid.
The Left pokes it’s own eyes out not to notice Sharia law and the treatment of women and children under it, wherein both are treated as property, child “brides”, and mutilation. I doubt they will raise an eyebrow. I don’t think I will raise my eyebrow either because I’m guessing this must have been a translation glitch.
I had the same thought this morning when I saw this news come over the morning wires. It really makes one relax a bit about Pope Francis. And of course it not a bad feeling to imagine the apoplexy of our leftist herthren (they don’t like brethren, so I made that one up to accommodate them).
One of my children once begged for a spanking instead of black out (everything taken away, in his room etc).
I have to say, that with some, it works well, spanking that is but you have to know how to use and who to use it on.
So, I suppose add my son’s “Beat me, please!” to the funny headline.
With a beating, it is over quicker.
Father, it looks like you are expecting a real knock-down, drag-out fight! With lots of picchiare.
To begin with, I don’t think many Italian native speakers would endorse “beat” as a translation of picchiare in this context.
See this link: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=885934.
(If you don’t know Italian, the upshot is that best translation would probably be “spank” or “smack”).
Second, I don’t suppose we could do the sensible thing and say that what the Holy Father was praising or endorsing was not the “smacking” itself, but the attitude of a father who has a care for his children’s dignity, even when punishing them?
I suppose not.
Remember that the Holy Father’s native language is not Italian. I heard his speech: Although the literal meaning of “picchiare” is “to beat,” he might have intended to say “to discipline” or “to slap” (since he also felt it necessary specify “never in the face”).
One cannot just focus on the words: You should have seen the body language and the facial expression. When I heard and saw him, I didn’t think for a moment what the MSM media is attempting to portray. Come on, the Holy Father is no sadist.
My grandfather used to say that children are like the vine: the need a stick/rod to grow up straight. That was 2 generations ago, but I’m beginning just know to appreciate the wisdom.
Beat…hmmm, I think the definition/translation of that word varies from language to language.
Check out dictionary.com and the thesaurus.
My choice of several definitions is…
Beat [sb] Informal, (arrive before)
“I will beat you to the church! We drive much faster.”
So I think the catholic left will find a definition and say that Pope Francis “meant” that.
Obviously he does not advocate beating children, at least in the face! :’ (
Good grief!
So if the talk of the town is that the pope is condoning this..then I guess everyone will either agree or ignore it ever happened.
Elephants in the living room are usually ignored.
Excuse me…..I must go beat some grand kids now…..(beat them to the dinner table that is!)
Why do I have a feeling Fr. Lombardi in the press office will not be amused about having to “clarify” this particular comment.
I dearly hope this was said at least somewhat in jest, or figuratively, or something. Otherwise Pope Francis just handed the best quote ever to anti-Catholics that think priests are into child abuse in its many forms.
I mean, yes, there may be times that corporal punishment is necessary, but to describe beating the children a little as beautiful?
This would be a career ending statement for most first world politicians or public figures, usually followed by back-tracking from the PR office, eventually an apology, and then either resigning in disgrace or claiming “the drugs made me say it” and entering a rehab center.
To be charitable, we all have said some very stupid, even evil things, and if that were in the public record most of us would not be able to show ourselves in public, so I should like to think we should all take the “who am I to judge?” approach and hope the world does, too.
Father, what are the connotations of picchiare? Does it have the same baggage as “beat” in English, or is it maybe a bit more of a neutral term? Something else entirely?
I don’t envy Fr. Z and his job when it comes to moderating comments!
As far as the Holy Father’s comments…my Argentine father would heartily agree. Corporal punishment was a mainstay in his household as a child in Argentina and most certainly in mine growing up in America of the 60’s and 70’s.
As a matter of fact, as a 32 year old man he smarted off to his elderly mother at a fancy graduation dinner party with several of his professors (med school) in attendance. She leaned over and smacked him so hard she gave him a bloody nose and he had to excuse himself and clean up in the kitchen. His profs toasted his parents with a glass of wine for it! When he tells the story I know most Americans are mortified but don’t dare say it.
Yup, the Pope obviously knows good parenting skills and most probably received a dose or two of “applied psychology” in his youth! ;-)
Jack in KC
Fr. Z-
I think you are translating “picchiare” too strongly here. I think “spank” or “smack” would probably be a better translation.
There’s a good discussion over on Wordreference Italian forums: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=885934
I personally use a wooden spoon, I started using the spoon when I would break the blood vessels in my hand every time I gave someone a slap on the bottom,. Why watch my strength? Sometimes I smack my twelve year old on the bottom as hard as I can only to have him laugh, that’s when I ask my husband to use the belt, of course I only use the spoon very lightly on my 18 month old, he’a just unhappy knowing I’m not happy with him.
I really would like to know some alternative methods but everybody talks about taking away privileges. My children have little and almost no privileges., we eat a bare fare, have minimal toys, don’t have extra curricular activities. I’ve sent them to bed without supper on occasion, but that can’t be applied to everything.
This disrespectful, belittling, beating that I’ve seen some men treat their children to, is far from appropriate, completely lacking in virtue, and all out unacceptable, but if you get a slap for doing a bad thing, you associate the inappropriate act with pain, and are less likely to opt for a repeat.
I say you spend the first three years of your child’s life trying to keep them from inadvertently killing themselves, the next ten years trying to teach them how to avoid killing themselves. A good smack on the bottom never killed anyone as far as I know.
Regarding discipline, the age of the child is a key factor. Swatting a two or three year-old on the rear with one’s hand as an immediate reaction and correction to misbehavior is proportional and appropriate.
However, once a child has reached the age of reason, often defined by the Church as approximately the age of seven, the rationale for corporal punishment diminishes exponentially. Also, it seems to me that the use of any implement is flat-out wrong as it removes the most direct method for the parent to judge proportionality (i.e. the pain in one’s hand).
I have four teenagers and cannot wait to let them know about this! Maybe now the snow will get shoveled, garbage taken out, etc.
The kids with which I went to grade school, the ones who got corporal punnishment were the ones who WEREN’T pregnant or impregnating by the end of high school. The, “Spanking is cruel”-raised kids? Not so much…
MrsMacD, when my son was small he was a handful. There was only one “child expert” I had any use for, and he was, and is, superb. He is Dr. John Rosemond, a Christian psychologist who’s books I recommend highly, for anyone raising a child. He has the most balanced take on family and child rearing that I have ever read. Most psychologist’s opinions I dismiss, but not his. He has always been popular for his common sense and traditional approach, but if you read reviews you must realize liberals disliked him for that same reason. Amazon’s used books will surely have some of his books for next to nothing or you might get them at the library. All his books not only contain great advice for raising a balanced child, they help the parents as well. He is also humorous and fun to read. Look up his ” Ten Children’s Rights” which you can read online. They contain such gems as “Your child has the right to be told no”, or “Your child has the right to yell and scream, but you have the right to tell them where they can do it” (their room). He actually turned out two balanced and productive grown children, so, he knew what he was talking about. He also gives talks and would be well worth hearing.
“1-2-3 Magic!” by Thomas Phelan, PhD, is a book you can get on Amazon for a few dollars, used.
This book has also been widely used, and gives one practical strategies for disciplining children aged 2 to 12.
When my son was small the wooden spoon occasionally made it’s appearance. A quick spank works with smaller children, when using the element of surprise, as in, they made a dash for the street when told not to. Serious stuff and you must get their attention. But for older children, this does not work so well, and once they realize the old gal gets pretty winded as she chases them around the yard, it becomes an occasion of humor for them anyway.
Kids need to be kept engaged in order to avoid behaviors. That boundless energy needs channels, both mental and physical, or things can deteriorate.
Hang in there. If done right, parenting is so much work, but it pays such dividends. My son turned out to be one of the finest people I know, and lo and behold, HE is a great dad as well.
I prefer not to leave scars on the outside. My disciplinary method for my children involves headphones, a CD player, and Marty Haugen.
“Of course, the Left will just ignore these comments. Anything that doesn’t fit in with their agenda is ignored, while comments that agree with their agenda are trumpeted for all to hear as “The New Gospel” according to whomever.”
So true for the Right, as well! LOL! God help and bless our popes and presidents!
Smacks on the bottom never damaged my flesh or my dignity, but they did act as a wake-up call. “No means no” is a pretty simple connection to wire through the butt.
What’s damaging to dignity is parents who rant at (as opposed to a short reasoned lecture) their kids for minutes and hours on end, often not even dealing with the kid’s actual issue. It’s usually more about the parent having low self-esteem. Those are the kids who kill themselves, albeit they usually don’t get in more traditional forms of trouble; because those are the parents who are troubled and can never let their kids feel loved.
The other destructive behavior is parents who try to explain a desired course of action to kids who are too young to understand the higher level whys and wherefores. It makes kids either ignore their parents or grow anxious, not understanding what the parent wants from them.
“Go get me a switch from the willow tree …. and it better not be too small or I’LL get the switch.”
That was my Grandmother (God bless her!). My father and mother spanked with hand or belt, depending on the seriousness of my miscreancy. Very seldom did I earn a slap in the face … but I earned a few nonetheless. I think it was Dear Abbey or her sister Ann Landers who said something to the tune of:
“Never slap a child upon the face
For God has provided a better place.”
–Guy
Dear Suburbanbanshee,
“What’s damaging to dignity is parents who rant at (as opposed to a short reasoned lecture) their kids for minutes and hours on end, often not even dealing with the kid’s actual issue . . . The other destructive behavior is parents who try to explain a desired course of action to kids who are too young to understand the higher level whys and wherefores. It makes kids either ignore their parents or grow anxious, not understanding what the parent wants from them.”
Agree fully.
Ideally, it should be done with a rod.
Proverbs 29:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but the child that is left to his own will bringeth his mother to shame.
Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, and the rod of correction shall drive it away.
But the hand is good, according to the Apostles.
The Didache~
Thou shalt not withhold thine hand from thy son or from thy daughter, but thou shalt teach them the fear of God from their youth up.
I certainly hope Pope Francis doesn’t back track or that the Vatican doesn’t with the possible exception of clearing up the mistranslation from beat to swat or smack. One look at the nightmares coming out of our public schools should be proof enough that the touchy feely leftist drivel against discipline has only brought unruly children up to be lawless and immoral adults.
I see on ‘Rome Reports’ that the English word used is ‘slap’ which has a different meaning to ‘beat’ – far less severe
I remember firmly slapping one of my sons (on the leg) when he let go of my hand and was about to run into the busy road. He never did it again. I think there are moments like these when a slap is warranted – short sharp and following on immediately. A cousin who had been a nurse agreed with me that there were occasions when a slap was deserved and indeed necessary but she emphasied that it should never be on the head which seems to be what Pope Francis has said.
Years ago ‘boxing’ a child’s ears was regarded as acceptable but according to my cousin this could damage hearing and should never be done.
Kathleen10, “For teens who misbehave significantly, take away a prized possession (like a cell phone, computer, car, or video game) for a while until their behavior improves.” Dr. John Rosemond, sounds like the same old advice to me. So what if your child doesn’t have anything?
On the one hand, I’ve never heard a really sound reason for the modern idea that corporal punishment is always wrong. It can come from a lot of different places — failure to outgrow adolescence and corresponding feelings that any enforcement of right and wrong is something to be rebelled against, or experience of family authority crippled by some larger dysfunction and incorrect association of the implements of authority with dysfunction instead, or the completely backwards logic of claiming that since excessive beatings are obviously wrong therefore all corporal punishment is wrong, or the unhistorical need to divide the past and present as evil and good respectively and since corporal punishment has a long history it gets consigned to “evil”, or of course the ridiculous quasi-Freudian “psychology” that claims people aren’t responsible for their actions because we’re all really defined by crap that happened to us when we were younger. They all have in common that they wouldn’t last two minutes in a conversation with Socrates (or anyone else who actually uses valid logic).
On the other hand, I’ve heard much sounder psychology to the effect that training kids to instinctively associate pain with the particular things they shouldn’t do or get into as babies/toddlers (e.g. electrical outlets) can stick longer than it’s intended to due to the low-level nature of that sort of sub-rational association. I wouldn’t, unlike the heirs of Freud, consider it something that couldn’t be identified and deliberately mentally trained back out later merely by decent self-awareness and decent mental self-discipline, and I’m not sure if there’s a middle ground between corporal punishment not being effective in the first place and being, well, too effective… but it’s something worth keeping in mind. Or rather, it’s something worth researching — there are different types of “conditioning” you’d want to look up. (I seem to have misplaced the psychology textbook that I’d hung onto largely for that purpose, unfortunately…)
And then again, I’m not sure that corporal punishment as punishment — reparation for injustice — rather than mere training is necessarily a bad thing either. Sure, that sort of justice is an even more unpopular idea these days, but largely for reasons just as sophomoric as the modern reasons to reject corporal punishment out of hand — “tyrants claim their whims are justice, ergo so-called justice is tyrannical,” and “Angry people call revenge justice, justice is just a rosy name for retaliation,” and don’t forget everyone’s favorite: “Who’s going to decide what justice is?” (It could be a crucial practical question if rephrased to avoid implying that justice is just somebody’s “decision”, but too often it’s just code for “I don’t believe justice can be objectively known and therefore nobody should try to enforce it.”)
So, between those two things, I’d almost be more inclined to reserve corporal punishment for the kids who do know better…
And yet again, on the other hand, I don’t know that corporal punishment is all that helpful in raising a kid, at least for some kids, if the end goal is not merely justice but growth in virtue. I say this merely because in my family it was mostly an occassion for wailing and gnashing of teeth. I can’t vouch for anyone else, and I don’t think it did me any harm in the long run, but I also seem to recall I personally didn’t grow in virtue from it because I usually wound up bitching to myself about how it “wasn’t fair”. That doesn’t rule out it’s being effective for some people, or that maybe there was some other factor in my case that made it less helpful than it could otherwise be…
I guess I’m just saying, “There’s a lot of stuff to consider and I’d think long and hard before taking a strong stance behind any kind of generalization.”
Oh yeah, and whoever said that the important thing here is Francis’s view of discipline as being subservient to love for the child had it right. (So did whoever pointed out that certain modern “composers” offer some pretty good alternative punishments.)
Fr. Z.
You need to juxtapose this statement with a picture of BXVI You know 99 our of 100 liberals would pick Benedict as the Pope this statement came from!
I think in the near future we will have 3 living popes….. Next year perhaps….
What The Cobbler said, and especially the part
So, between those two things, I’d almost be more inclined to reserve corporal punishment for the kids who do know better…
Though for those who inadvertently messed up something, may be little slap they could accept as punishment would be better too than leaving them writhing in embarassment for days and days.
As for telling personal stories, I once got a slap to the ear by a teacher for jostling in the line at school. As for the physical pain, it was over in seconds. Well, maybe a minute, don’t recall. As for the personal shame about apparently having upset the teacher too much by my misbehaviour, it took a day. But what did rather confuse me completely was the day after, when the same teacher approached me with so many words and pleas for forgiveness (it was then already disallowed for teachers).
Beatiful scene at 1:06:42. Egon has, contrary to express order, read a letter of his father Max before the appointed time that said he was going somewhere and would perhaps be murdered and not come back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_HQY4QDmw
It’s obvious to me that revolutionary “catholycs” were not beaten enough as children. They probably understand that the success of their message depends upon children being raised as untouchable, special snowflakes. So, I’m sure that when it comes to advocating child-raising policies for others, their advice will be to promote more of that approach, which produced themselves.
I’m really rather shocked by some of the comments I have read, particularly the justification for “beating” children. The arguments in favor fall into several categories:
1.) “My parents did it to me, and I turned out fine.”
(Of course, this requires an external observer to determine how “fine” you are. Also, this is anecdotal evidence: it doesn’t serve as justification for anything.)
2.) “I deserved it”, “It worked for me”, “I learned from it”
Further self-reference doesn’t supply justification.
3.) “The Bible clearly justifies the use of corporal punishment.”
Strictly speaking, the Old Testament does. It also dictates that women caught in adultery should be stoned. (Along with many other prohibitions and commandments, many of which I suppose the readers of this blog are aware).
There is an implicit suggestion by many that a “non-beating” parent is a bad parent, whose child lacks discipline. [Not based on the three examples you gave, there isn’t.] I suggest that under normal circumstances the “beating” parent has difficultly controlling his emotions: he lashes out at the child under the guise of “discipline” as if it were a virtuous act for him to lose his temper so that, as a consequence, he could tan his child’s hide and fulfill his duty before God. Let’s be honest, how many parents actually spank, slap, or otherwise beat their children while emotionally attached? I reckon very few.
Greg Popczak, a well-known Catholic psychologist has written extensively about this topic. I used to be a very “pro-spanking” person. However, after further consideration (and producing well-behaving children), I have reconsidered my position.
“There is an implicit suggestion by many that a “non-beating” parent is a bad parent, whose child lacks discipline. [Not based on the three examples you gave, there isn’t.]”
To be clearer, please note: I wrote that “there is an implicit suggestion by many that a ‘non-beating’ parent is a bad parent…(etc.)”
Here I reference “many” of the above messages (please let me know if you disagree; it seems obvious. However, I shall gladly take the time to properly support my assertion, should the need arise).
Also, I made a major omission in writing “attached”. It ought to read: “Let’s be honest, how many parents actually spank, slap, or otherwise beat their children while emotionally “disattached”? I reckon very few.”