This B as in B, S as in S.
Does this seem like targeting of churches to you?
From the Washington Examiner:
Illinois governor says churches may not fully reopen for a year or more because of coronavirus
It could be more than a year before churches are allowed to resume their in-person gatherings, according to Democratic Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker. [Whose family owns the Hyatt hotel chain and who is worth $3.4 billion. He worked for Rahm Emanuel in Chicago and was co-chair of Hillary Clinton’s prez run in 2008. In 2019 he repealed a law in Illinois that banned partial-birth abortion. Big business abortion, Planned Parenthood backs him. He massively expanded gambling and cracked down on gun ownership in a state with an out of control murder rate by criminals who don’t obey gun laws. He created a sanctuary state environment. He signed an order ordering schools to be “affirming and inclusive” of transgender and non-binary students. He signed legislation legalizing recreational marijuna. He works with the Gates Foundation.]
Pritzker announced a five-phase plan to reopen Illinois that gives guidance to schools, businesses, churches, and other religious centers about when they will be allowed to reopen. In phase three, gatherings of up to 10 people will be allowed. In phase four, gatherings of up to 50 people will be allowed. Gatherings of more than 50 people will not be allowed until phase five.
During a press conference on Wednesday, Pritzker confirmed that churches will be held to the same standards and will not be allowed to hold in-person services of more than 50 people until phase five, even if it takes more than a year to get to that position.
“You know that in phase three, there can be gatherings, church gatherings, of 10 or fewer. In phase four, 50 or fewer. So that’s the guidance that’s been given to me,” Pritzker said. “I’m not the one providing that guidance. It really is what the scientists and epidemiologists are recommending.” [It’s not my fault! It’s their fault!]
Pritzker said the state entered phase two on Friday and will enter phase three on May 29 at the earliest. Face masks will be recommended in public until phase five is reached. Schools, restaurants, and bars will not reopen until phase four.
Phase five cannot begin until a vaccine is widely available or a highly effective therapeutic drug is released. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has said a vaccine is 12 to 18 months away from being available to the public.
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I’m so tired of this. I want to go back to church so badly. I’m fighting an addiction and I’ve been totally deprived of the help of the sacraments. And I’m not getting a Bill Gates sponsored vaccine but I have no faith in our local bishop to not bow to the globalists and require it. I don’t know what to do. The stress of it all is making me almost physically nauseated.
I’ll bet that made Cdl Cupich’s day!
Phase 5 is also the part of the plan when the federal budget gets balanced. Can you spell N-E-V-E-R?
Besides the fact that an order like this is completely wrong and illegal on every level and must be defied, there IS a highly effective therapeutic drug available–hydroxychloroquine with zinc and azithromycin. Because our traitorous mainstream media is doing their best to keep denouncing this highly effective treatment, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work for the vast majority of patients. It has been used safely for decades and has cured tens of thousands of covid patients throughout the world. But would a employee of Bill Gates ever admit this? These people are evil to the core.
“Democratic Illinois Gov.” is redundant.
What sane person would want to go through the hassle of running as a Republican? The garbage doesn’t get collected, phone service suddenly becomes spotty, internet service stops, water and sewer starts having problems, electric service goes out at the most inconvenient times, mail and parcel delivery delay or misplace important correspondence, and ones car seems to get towed every time one goes out.
It is in the interests of certain people with power that hydroxychloroquine be denigrated, because it cannot, I believe, be patented.
With the help of the excellent Wolfram-Alpha search engine I sought to discover what have been chances to date of an American dying of the Wuhan Flu. So far there ave been about 72,000 deaths in a population of 324, 000, 000 persons. Wolfram Alpha had this to say:
“Input interpretation:
convert 72000/324000000 to percent
Result:
0.02222%
Rational approximation:
1/4500
So to date the odds of an American dying of “Covid19” have been 4500 to 1. For that we shut everything down, threw people out of work and doubtless drove more than a few to despair and suicide, and have given up the free exercise of our religion and of free association for an indeterminate time.
The other day some experts opined that if all the governors opened everything up, we would have 350,000 deaths by the end of June. Wolfram-Alpha tells me:
Input interpretation:
convert 350000/324000000 to percent
Result:
0.108% [ LG: that is, to be clear, 1 tenth of one percent]
Rational approximation:
7/6480
So, first, while 350,000 is not an inconsiderable number, it is still negligible relative to the entire population and to what we are being asked to endure. Beyond that, there is the huge co-morbidity factor where doctors are being pressured to ascribe deaths to covid19 when the patient had a grave underlying problem that vastly increased his vulnerability. In other words, the numbers are being inflated. Cui bono? Democrats? Socialists? China?
I get that the days of the Prince/Archbishop are long gone, but in the face of the religious/economic/ emotional stress being laid on their flocks I have to say that the failure of bishops individually or as a conference to remonstrate forcefully with civil governments, and to push back in the public square is very disappointing, to say nothing of their making themselves instruments of demonstrably disproportionate and draconian governmental policy.
Here in Oregon, the churches are being opened up, but with a maximum of 25 person allowed to attend per Mass, with sign-ups required, and social distance to be maintained. This is obviously going to be an administrative nightmare, with a great deal of potential for misunderstandings, hurt feelings, resentments and jealousy. St. Paul tells us in Hebrews 12:15 to let no root of bitterness spring up, but compliance with gov’t regs will surely provide plenty of fertile ground. Beyond that, our priests and pastors are suddenly thrust into the role of enforcing gov’t policy, that is, of being policemen. There is nothing about that role that is likely to endear them to their flocks. In short, this “good news” is likely to be more bad news for priests and people.
We need our churches open once again, with the dispensations left in place. If people want to brave what little risk there is, is there not something to be said for the freedom of the sons of God? Or are we going to allow the Nanny State to turn us into the Nanny Church? For the love of God, your excellencies, fling upon the doors to the Church. Not yet are you the Patriotic Association and you should firmly resist any temptation to acquiesce in becoming such. In other words, for the love of God, stand up.
GypsyMom says: Besides the fact that an order like this is completely wrong and illegal on every level and must be defied, there IS a highly effective therapeutic drug available–hydroxychloroquine with zinc and azithromycin.
Yeah, but nobody stands to make any money off of these. They are dirt cheap. Besides which, they are endorsed by Trump.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Denying churches the right to open and worship freely is clearly a violation of the first amendment. If bishops choose to keep them closed, I suppose that is their right because of their authority, but the government has no such authority under the US Constitution.
The most bitter disappointment has been from the onset religious leaders did not say sure, we will work with you for the common good but remind them this country was founded on religious freedom, it is a constitutional right, and WE will decide when the common good has been fulfilled as far as worship is concerned. Even now I don’t hear much as we don’t appreciate our hard fought freedoms. To be blessed to live in a country such as ours doesn’t seem to register as our forefathers and vets deserve. Not to mention the due respect for Mass and sacraments.
I wonder which state employees will be sacrificed to pay for the overtime in the Illinois Attorney General’s office who have to defend that? The idea that the governor can rule by fiat under emergency declarations extended indefinitely or until an event that may never happen is … not precisely compatible with the republican-form-of-government clause. And I seriously doubt the state will be able to defend its ban on religious gatherings over 10 (or fifty) people for very long under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
The Christophobic anti-religious hate bigots aren’t even hiding it. They want to use this to drive religious services clear out of the public space.
Went to Confession today. Feel about 10 pounds lighter.
Please pray for those of us in Illinois. Our bishops do not have a backbone and they will not stand up for us.
I live in Chicago and therefore within the archdiocese of Chicago. This new edict is very painful for all those that attend Church, regardless of denomination. The church I attend within the city is quite large, and can easily fit 800 people. I don’t understand why our leaders limit to only 10 people in such a large space. The more logical approach would be to limit the number of people per square footage. In our church, we could be spaced out in alternating pews and still accommodate 100 – 200 people, and wear masks. I have NO faith in our government here in Illinois of attempting to be rational or sane. We live in a totalitarian state. And unfortunately, Cardinal Cupich appears to be more than happy to sit idly by, and to abdicate any pretense of shepherding. Its a complete and utter failure of leadership here. I am going to stop giving money to any archdiocese campaign until the Cardinal grows a spine and takes action. If I must attend Mass virtually, then he can consider my donations to be virtual.
My question is do these restrictions apply to everyone or just churches? Does this mean Wrigley Field won’t open until churches do? How about conferences or conventions at hotels?
Fortunately, there are some good bishops in Illinois (Chicago excepted—though he might surprise me) who will fight this. At least I hope they do.
it really isn’t a question of “people per event”, its a question of “people per square foot.” If a Mass has 0.0833 people per square foot and they maintain that spatial distance, what difference does it make if there is 50 or 500 people ? If you put a dot on a pew and use a string to draw a circle with a 12 foot radius, one can demonstrate how many people a particular church can accommodate with an abundance of spacial distancing.
“So that’s the guidance that’s been given to me,” Pritzker said. “I’m not the one providing that guidance. It really is what the scientists and epidemiologists are recommending.”
Ah, the usual un-elected suspects.
Well, some scientists are professional, some are ideologues in lab coats.
ZestyLemonZach: Hang in there, this too shall pass. In the meantime, you are given an indescribable gift: an opportunity to unite with the travails of the saints down through the centuries. In “Christus Vincit” Bishop Schneider recounts a tale from the Soviet Union of his family visited by a priest only once a year.
Another blessing during this time of pestilence is that certain federal, state, local officials and “scientists” are exposing their true natures and plots.
Now, there’s good news out of Kansas, from the Daily Signal yesterday:
“A federal district court judge has taught Kansas Gov. Laura Kelly (a Democrat) a valuable lesson: The COVID-19 pandemic does not give her the right to suspend the First Amendment right of Kansans to practice their religious beliefs. Several other state and local officials should take heed, too.
“Kelly signed a series of executive orders restricting public and private activities due to the COVID-19 crisis. On April 7, she issued Executive Order 20-18…”
https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/05/06/governors-cant-suspend-the-first-amendment/amp/
In Communist-occupied Poland St. John Paul II and the citizens of Nowa Huta provided us, with their Defence of the Cross and Christmas Mass, inspiration for these moments. Unlike Communist Poland, we have some excellent governors and judges in these United States.
Good news out of Texas:
“On Wednesday, Governor Abbott, the state’s Attorney General Ken Paxton and Lieutenant Gov. Dan Patrick called for Luther’s release after she was jailed by Dallas County State District Judge Eric Moyé. The officials said he had abused his discretion and emphasized that the woman was keeping her business open in order to feed her family.”
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/abbott-issues-executive-order-eliminating-jail-as-punishment-for-violating-coronavirus-restrictions
Sportsfan: To paraphrase Elwood Blues: “Illinois Communists…”
There is some aspect of law that goes something like this. If enough citizens do not follow a particular law, that law can be considered null, because, I think, the citizens reject it’s legality. Somebody will correct me, this may be wrong. There is also I think, the concept of unjust law, that does not have to be followed. These seem like 2 separate issues. But I know little about law.
Aside all of this, as a free people, if we wish to remain free, we may have to suffer a bit for it. The stylist in Texas just showed us how.
Americans were willing to do what was necessary to save lives. Absolutely.
Things being as they are, certain elected people are apparently using their office to control us.
We should use common sense at all times. This virus is not a hoax in my book, it’s a serious illness that has killed 75,000 Americans, many of them in the younger set, and the survivors often enough have permanently damaged organs, including lungs and kidneys. Terrible. I think it’s highly irresponsible for people to call it a hoax because 75,000 Americans didn’t die of nothing. So I’m for precautions until we KNOW the numbers in our area are in decline for at least two weeks, and I’d say a bit longer. It’s not going to kill us to be careful an extra month, but it might kill us if we aren’t.
But after that, civil disobedience. We’ve got to go to it, and the more the merrier, because the more people who disobey, the less able they are to punish us. Do NOT pay fines, fight them. Gum up the courts. File lawsuits, whatever it takes.
Whatever law they tout, break it, break it in big numbers if you can. Advertise, get people to show up. Make noise about it, call, email, put things on social media. Put signs up. Don’t fight with law enforcement, that’s not the answer and people could get hurt, but exercise your right as an American, something you are fighting for. Bill De Blasio there no protests are allowed in NYC. That should be the ever-lovin day. I wish New Yorkers would gather en masse and take that guy to school.
Oh, and the church. How do I put this. The mainstream church no longer has anything we’re interested in. They can stay closed to 2050 for all we care. Traditional Latin Rite, people.
Traditional Latin Rite. Find it. The bishops no longer have any hold or control over our lives. Let them rule over empty churches and when they open it up find out they have 4 people showing up. Guess what. I don’t think they’d care. They know, they no longer need us. They get Resettlement Funds from the US government. What do they need our pittance for?
Restrictions on gatherings of 10 or 50 people are largely arbitrary. Maintaining distances of 6′ or more is not, but is based on what is known about the transmission of the disease.
The former is an indirect method to aid in achieving the latter.
Political leaders should be focusing on ways to control risks without infringing on rights as they develop their plans, not on arbitrary measures of dubious effectiveness and significant impact on our rights.
I’m very open to considering that the moral necessity of avoiding a risk of severe harm to others may dispense my normal obligations and even necessitate widespread limited access to the Mass and the sacraments. At the same time, we should promote our rights and needs calmly and clearly with constructive suggestions to help lead our public servants to the correct decisions. For example, learning the protections and limitations expected at each stage of your state’s re-opening plans, and making Mass plans that match, like determining if you need to alternate pews to ensure recommended distance from one family to the next. Dare I even suggest some churches might eliminate drums from the choir so members have more room, and tambourines which can act as fomites when shared?
@ Gypsy_mom, what the media says about treatments for the disease can be largely ignored. It is at best incoherent and often incorrect. Hydroxychloroquine is frequently being used as an off-label treatment with patient consent, and I’ve been reviewing some of the actual research being published on it. The results are unclear. Many studies seem to show a small to moderate improvement. Some actually show worsening. Most studies seem to be retrospective without randomization, which results in significant risk of spurious correlations. I don’t see any so far that could support the conclusion HCQ or HCQ in combination with other drugs is “highly effective.”
I’d summarize the overall state is that hydroxychloroquine and azythromycin shows some promise of moderately reducing the fatality rate and accelerating recovery, as are several other treatments like remdesivir, but nothing yet has been found that significantly changes the gravity of the pandemic.
ChesterFrank wrote:
“ it really isn’t a question of “people per event”, its a question of “people per square foot.” If a Mass has 0.0833 people per square foot and they maintain that spatial distance, what difference does it make if there is 50 or 500 people ? If you put a dot on a pew and use a string to draw a circle with a 12 foot radius, one can demonstrate how many people a particular church can accommodate with an abundance of spacial distancing.”
That would involve…math…
Seriously, what does the governor care if people under 40 whose parents don’t depend on them or who don’t work with high risk people go to church? They will get infected. So what. Almost none of them will die. He has no argument worthy of consideration. Catholic lawyers of Illinois, unite! File for an emergency injunction to the Supreme Court.
As for hydroxychloroquine, that ship has sailed. The FDA stopped 2 clinical trials because of QTs heart arrhythmias. It’s not going anywhere without FDA approval of the trials.
I spend 4 hours this morning writing (mostly, cutting and pasting) an in-depth analysis of the movie vignette, part 1 of, Plandemic, for a friend and it wore me out. I realize that people are getting cabin fever, but some people are taking advantage of the situation to inflame passions.
Obviously, the governor of Illinois is wrong. I have no idea which scientists he is listening to, because, clearly they don’t seem to know that South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand are virtually without cases being reported and they sure as heck won’t have to wait a year for churches to re-open. That is because they are doing the epidemiology more-or-less right (not perfectly, but much closer than we are). We’ve got a method that more-or-less stops the spread of the virus. We have the crib sheet. Use it. South Korea never had a shelter-in-place order. Their economy is still going. They can go to church.
The Chicken
Masked Chicken: Several unfounded assertions and errors. Take a closer look. Cheers.
From the Pope and many bishops and priests, we have been given the message to wait for the civil authority to give their approval to reopen the Church. In response, I ask why would the State care about the Church being able to open her doors to the faithful? The Church has been labeled a “non essential business”. Liquor stores and pot shops, conversely, are allowed to operate. Sundry businesses are scheduled soon to resume their work. The timetable for the Church meanwhile is either vague or far down in the distant future. It is not surprising. In far too many nations, states, counties and cities, the powers that be are hostile to the Church and her teachings. The purveyors of abortion, unnatural marriage, contraception and the like couldn’t care less if the Church never opened her doors again. Our prelates? Unfortunately too many of them are metaphorically in the upper room, sealed away; either too scared or too comfortable or too disinterested. Had this attitude prevailed at the Church’s beginning, it would have never gone anywhere. Our prelates are rarely shy at bending the ear of the secular powers for the benefit of social justice, ie immigration, the environment, restorative justice. Will they ever have the same zeal for the Church and her children? I pray so.
The liberal/democrat (morally decrepit) leaders that Catholic democrats keep electing are putting the last nails in the coffin of the Church. 100% the fault of American Catholics who refuse to follow the teachings of the Church as written in the Catechism. The war on the Church is almost over…and we lost.
This idea that we can lock down until there is a vaccine ignores the fact that there may never be a vaccine. At best we may end up with something like the so called “flu shot” that works against some strain some of the time and needs to be reformulated every year as we guess what strain will be active this year. But everyone seems to enamored with Science and just assumes something like the Polio vaccine in a sugar cube will miraculously be created and solve everything. In Gates we Trust.
Perhaps if there is anything we can learn (particularly as Catholics) is that we can only depend on God. Perhaps this pandemic has been allowed to happen to show us that we are not as in control as we think we are.
As far as the Church closings are concerned, to try to look at is as charitably as possible, if the government leaders are looking at it from a Protestant point of view they may see “services” as being a nice to have thing, which is more or less true for them as they do not have the sacraments, at least as how we Catholics understand them. For Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox) it is a different matter entirely.
The hardest thing for me (layman, Archdiocese of Chicago), is just the poor response from Cardinal Cupich and less so the secular state.
We’re not even allowed (by Cupich not the Governor) to enter our churches no matter what the size. Our parishes are literally chained from the inside (I had to take pictures when I was outside a parish praying). Additionally statements from the Archdiocese have made clear that non-emergency baptism, confession, confirmation, communion to the sick, marriages and ordination (I feel bad for the graduating seminarians) are “not possible”. Mind you not difficult, or need modification, but “not possible”.
If you need anointing, there is now a lay medical provider (and a business administrator) involved in determining your COVID-19 risk and assigning you to one of a the few “approved” priests for anointing. Although I’m thankful they’re at least anointing, I have a feeling the sick and dying would prefer their own pastor over a generic priest.
Additionally para-liturgical devotions and adoration are cancelled. Parishes are not even allowed to set up adoration in a window for parking lot adorers. Good Friday stations were “not possible” even outdoor stations (specifically mentioned).
The thing that has really kicked me in the gut has been that the masses by the Cardinal and others on the Archdiocese youtube and cable broadcast are pre-recorded (you can tell because the Youtube still images from the mass are available a day before a particular service). Not only are the faithful physically separated from these masses, but temporally too. Not to mention the theological conundrum of what does it mean to pray along with something that is no longer happening (Can I just watch papal masses of Pope Benedict instead?).
The response by the Archbishop has really been tone deaf. On 4/30/20 order 32-2020 was amended to make exercise of religion an essential act (though limited to in-person gatherings of 10). There has since (as of the morning of 5/8/20) been no statement even acknowledging this change. Are we going to try small masses in person? Could we unchain our parishes, so the faithful can pray somewhere other than their homes? Could we do parking lot adoration? I don’t know. But don’t worry there was time to make a nice fireside chat wishing all of Chicago’s Muslims a holy Ramadan filled with blessed fasting, prayer and alms giving.
I’m just at a loss to this response. I am by no means a holy or even a moderately good Catholic. I’m certainly no saint. Yet I feel like I need to protest outside the Cathedral with a wooden cross or something. I’m at a loss when I see men who devoted their personal and professional lives consider it somewhat more more “essential” than Go-Kart racing and somewhat less than pet grooming.
Please pray for us in the Archdiocese and our clergy.
Now try to imagine Governor Pritzker declaring that all social venues will remain closed until there is a vaccine for, say, HIV/AIDS.
Won’t happen.
Pritzker is an anti-Catholic bigot.
Dear Kathleen10,
There is some aspect of law that goes something like this. If enough citizens do not follow a particular law, that law can be considered null, because, I think, the citizens reject it’s legality. Somebody will correct me, this may be wrong. There is also I think, the concept of unjust law, that does not have to be followed. These seem like 2 separate issues. But I know little about law.
You are quite right about the two issues being separate issues.
As for unjust law, setting the debate whether some unjust-but-not-too-unjust law might still be binding in conscience on account of the higher principle of rule-of-law aside for a moment, one is free to disobey it, subject to the usual considerations of prudence, etc.
A law that the law’s subjects don’t like is, as you rightly say, a different matter. You are wrong about what holds in the matter though; a law holds whether or not people like it and behave according to it. Of course there is some leeway here; there really is some room for the people saying “but obviously that was meant for a different circumstance”, the bearer of the state’s authority then would typically let the matter lie, and future lawyers write dissertations about the development of a law-abrogating custom, I guess. So let’s set that again set aside and only look at the case where the point comes to the point, and the ruler – say (for simplicity) an absolute monarch – says “but I really do want this law” and the people say “but we really do not want to follow it”.
Well, then, he still has to be obeyed, see Immortale Dei 5,31. Also, he has a right to violently force the disobedient people into submission. Contrary to some rumour, it is immaterial which in what manner the law of the land made him achieve his post, be it the happenstance of birth as they did in the French ancien régime, the happenstance of an election outcome as they do in America, the happenstance of drawing a lot as they sometimes did in ancient Greece, and so forth.
Geßler would have been quite within his right to make his Swissmen bow to the Crown of the Holy Roman Empire, to which Switzerland then belonged. He was not right, however, to make them bow to the hat of the Archduke of Austria, to which Switzerland did not belong (even if the Archduke and the Holy Roman Emperor did happen to be the same person): all the difference between a merely unpopular and a manifestly unjust law.
@Gypsymom – agree completely! In fact the criteria for opening up was contingent on finding and effective therapeutic OR vaccine. There are effective therapeutics – including even Vitamin C and D. Vaccines can take up to a year or more to approve but effective therapeutics can being immediately and some of these drugs that you mention are already well established, cost effective, and have already been shown in some clinical trials to be effective. As has been Vitamin C. Point is there are. Accessible therapeutics to address infection rates and hospitals can manage capacity. In fact our own local hospital reduced the number of beds allocated to Covid 19 from 60 to 33. Plus the Chief Medical Officer said that as a result of this other medical intervention and surgeries have been postponed and that is not a good thing as early detection and treatment correlates with better outcomes. This entire thing, especially in the US has become way too politicized and that is really unfortunate. It it has underscored the value of accessible, timely. Affordable health care for the poor and vulnerable. This is the challenge for the “right”. The challenge for the “left” is that the economic impact and civil liberty restrictions of these restrictions are taking their tool and a free people will only support this so long. They are also not really looking at evidence and applying common sense
Well we are having outdoor Masses this weekend and on the weekday mornings next week. Once the Governor lifts our restrictions (Hopefully God willing on the 15th) we will have Mass back in Church. We will follow all of the guidelines and restrictions and all will be fine. Where there is a will and a desire to be with the Lord there is a way.
Stores, businesses, etc. find a way to make it work. Our Churches should never be on the short end.
To raitchi2 – St John Cantius in Chicago is livestreaming all of their Masses. They are NOT pre-recorded. They are available on YouTube, and you can view them while the actual Mass is occurring, or after the fact. These livestreamed Masses, although not a suitable replacement for being there in person, are a Godsend.
What a wicked anti-God man that governor is! It is not at all about keeping people ‘safe’ other than safe from worshipping God and from employment and so on.
There is not 75,000 deaths in the US due to CV19; the CDC has now halved that number. Keep in mind that up to 90,000 die each year in the US of flu. Every day an average of 7,000 Americans die.
We sheeple are kept from our churches among other things, many are terrified to go out, and we wear our little face coverings which may not even be effective. We have been played and have danced to the tune.
Imrahil: Interesting and thoughtful comment. Two observations for your consideration.
1. The actions of St. John Paul II and his parishioners at Nowa Huta, and the actions of the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, are in accord with Immortale Dei 5.
2. There is a healthy and essential tension between: “Government should, moreover, be administered for the well-being of the citizens” and “it was established for the common good of all.”
Skepticism is in order toward those who insist on “individual rights” or on “the common good” to the exclusion of the other.
Edward Feser has an excellent article on who it is that bears the burden of proving these lockdowns are necessary. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-burden-of-proof-is-on-those-who.html
Ave Maria, where did you get the information that CDC has halved the death total from 75,000? I looked through their site and didn’t see any such claim.
As I look at their site on the afternoon of the 8th, I see at least two of their pages repeat a through-May 7th number of 73,297 – based on reporting from states/jurisdictions.
There is another page on their site that has a “as of May 8th” number of 47,128 (well over half of the other figure) – but the notes make clear that that is tracking death certificate reporting which can be as much as 7 to 14 days behind the initial reporting. So that 47000 number is somewhere between April 24 and May 1 .
Is there another report that I missed someplace else on their site that gives that half of 75000 figure?
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
Reasonable article by Edward Feser, thanks Anita Moore, O.P. (lay).
Several observations.
“Again, the original justification was that without the lockdown, hospitals would be overwhelmed and key medical supplies would become scarce. So, if that is no longer an issue, why do we still need the lockdown?”
An interesting discussion can be had here regarding Subsidiarity and Federalism.
Some governors, as we have seen, are over-reacting and have strayed into authoritarianism. On the other hand, in South Dakota grateful citizens recently organized a parade for Gov. Kristi Noem for her management of the situation.
In a complex situation with lives at stake and many moving parts both foreign and domestic, estimates of the situation and risk management will differ by state. So will leadership styles and the motives behind policy decisions. That said, there is an unfortunate trend, as we have seen, with policy decisions by governors in many “Democrat” states.
“But how do we know that there would be millions of deaths? And what is the compelling evidence that the virus roaring back is likely to happen? It is not enough merely to float these as possibilities, or even as somewhat probable. We need something stronger than that.”
In our current predicament “compelling evidence” will always be open to debate. What compels one person will cause another to scoff and yet another to go into denial. To this dynamic add various disinformation campaigns, foreign and domestic, along with inflammatory headlines such as this one by The Atlantic: “Georgia’s Experiment in Human Sacrifice.” So, acquiring and disseminating “compelling evidence” for timely and appropriate policy is easier said than done.
“Everyone should make an extra effort at showing humility during this crisis, but especially those who are imposing enormous costs on others, where reasonable people can disagree about the necessity and efficacy of those costs.”
Good point. Though, pressure can get the best of anyone sometimes.
I’ve come to the painful but obvious conclusion that our bishops need some motivation to develop spines. I also am aware that the Catholic Church in Germany is one of the weakest, weirdest, wackiest churches in the world, supported by the church tax, despite churches being empty even in normal times. I’m now forced to use one of the only two tools at my disposal, the other of which is prayer. I’ve decided that I am not going to make any donations to my parish or the diocese until churches reopen for public Masses, and I’m not going to make up any of the missed donations. It isn’t “a pay for service” mentality; it’s just this realization that as long as the money is coming in (in many cases from automatic electronic donations, the value of which I am beginning to question) the bishops have no incentive to push governors and other civil authorities for reasonable accommodations, and pain is a good motivator. Meanwhile, I have plenty of other charitable alternatives.
I can’t help but wonder if things would have been different if those governors who claim to be Catholic had been subject to excommunication for being abortionists many years ago, before the sex abuse scandals, when we still had some moral authority. In times past, a civil official who lead the suppression of religion would have been excommunicated as well, but now we have ourselves boxed into a logical contradiction: if we didn’t defend innocent human life from being murdered, a more serious and obvious crime, why should we take umbrage at a less serious and at least marginally debatable offense?
[That was thought provoking.]
Pretty sure this won’t last. US DOJ will intervene, lawsuits galore, a recall by voters, etc.
How does it go? Scratch a liberal, find a fascist.
Andrew Saucci says: I can’t help but wonder if things would have been different if those governors who claim to be Catholic had been subject to excommunication for being abortionists many years ago, before the sex abuse scandals, when we still had some moral authority.
If the Catholic hierarchy had not squandered all the Church’s moral capital decades ago, the legalization of abortion would have been unthinkable. In 1970 William F. Buckley said:
The Catholic Church threw away fish-on-Friday, liturgical Latin, tough rules for the priests and nuns; and, for their pains, got emptier and emptier churches….When the time came to rally protests against permissive abortion laws, the troops were simply not there. It is very difficult for a Catholic fundamentalist to go on about Murder, while his Cardinal is photographed speaking amiably to the leader of the Assembly that passed the abortion bill a few months before. How would it have appeared if, let us say, Cardinal Spellman of New York had been seen shaking hands and chatting amiably with Martin Bormann? The answer is that Cardinal Spellman would have avoided doing any such thing. And that Cardinal Cooke’s willingness to traffic with legislators from New York who voted for the abortion bill seems to suggest that New York Catholics must regard permissive abortion policies as something less than the kind of thing that inspires mutinous relations between the subject and the state.
Inveighing We Will Go, New York, G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1972, pp. 326-328.
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Regarding Anita Moore OP’s comments about William F. Buckley’s observation in 1970; I was struck by a mixture of anger and sadness reading of the description of the Church’s distancing herself from the pious traditions and practice that were intrinsic to the Church for so many centuries. 1970. The year the New Mass was promulgated. Is there any coincidence the Church started to go haywire upon the introduction of a form of Mass that was previously foreign to her? While liturgists were anxious to introduce novelties to the Mass and supposedly make it more accessible to the faithful, was any thought given to what God thoughts on the subject were? I don’t think so. Is the Church better off the last 50 years? Given what has happened within the Church in this time, the answer is a resounding no. A return to tradition is most needed now in these dark and troubling times.
Clinton R. says: Is the Church better off the last 50 years? Given what has happened within the Church in this time, the answer is a resounding no. A return to tradition is most needed now in these dark and troubling times.
Yes. But that by itself is not going to be enough. We must keep in mind that those in the Latin Rite who came up with modernism did not have the Novus Ordo, but were brought up with the Tridentine Mass.
“Yes. But that by itself is not going to be enough. We must keep in mind that those in the Latin Rite who came up with modernism did not have the Novus Ordo, but were brought up with the Tridentine Mass.”
That is a very troubling thought. To be nourished by the timeless beauty of the ancient rite and then have a desire to discard it. How dark were the souls of these men who mutilated the Mass?
Could it be that God allowed the SSPX to NOT make a deal yet because God knew/knows what is coming? By SSPX not currently under the Diocese, it is there that people have been able to continue attending Mass, and having funerals.
To think that all these deaths are occurring, and Catholics are being deprived of their final Mass before burial, to get them out of purgatory sooner! It’s heart breaking! And without that send-off from the Church, how many even remember to pray for the soul of the departed?
Our local SSPX had a Mass last week for a non-parishioner’s burial, the mother of a parishioner; because the woman’s parish could not. My friend’s father died the same week. She was so upset she couldn’t have a funeral Mass for him in his parish.
Excellent well researched video showing all the “ players” in the Virus Mafia Cabal.
https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/05/09/this-video-is-worth-your-time-it-really-is-a-cabal-and-the-whole-thing-has-been-meticulously-orchestrated/
I realize this post has long passed the gate, but I would like to apologize for my last comment. It contained a factual error. It was finals week and I had not been getting a lot of beneficial sleep. I was grumpy and argumentative. It has taken me a while to recover.
The Chicken
Also to be noted is that Pritzker essentially bought the governor’s office with family money which is a bit surprising as the family is quite disfunctional. Were it not for professional managers, their hotel chain would be bankrupt. As for Cdl. Cupich, he has the backbone of a noodle. The old adage, expect little and you shall never be disappointed, certainly applies.