Roman exorcist says there are satanic groups in Vatican

There is a CNA post about something which is less than savory.  It might be useful to have some discussion here.

Keep in mind that I discourage prurient interest in things having to do with the enemy of the soul and diabolical influence.

My emphases and comments.

Spanish exorcist addresses claims of Satanic influence in Vatican

Rome, Italy, Mar 3, 2010 / 04:20 pm (CNA).- A renowned exorcist in Rome recently released a book of memoirs in which he declares to know of the existence of Satanic sects in the Vatican where participation reaches all the way to the College of Cardinals. [Oooooo!] A second demonologist, also residing in Rome, entered the debate this week, clarifying the origins of the information and defending the Vatican’s clergy as an "edifying and virtuous" collection of prelates. [Well... many of them are.]

In a book of memoirs released in February, the noted Italian exorcist Fr. Gabriele Amorth affirmed that "Yes, also in the Vatican there are members of Satanic sects.[Oooooo!] When asked if members of the clergy are involved or if this is within the lay community, he responded, "There are priests, monsignors and also cardinals!"

The book, "Father Amorth. Memoirs of an Exorcist. My life fighting against Satan." was written by Marco Tosatti, who compiled it from interviews with the priest.  [I have read somethings by Tosatti.  Inter alia he wrote a book on the part of the secret of Fatima which allegedly hasn't been released.  He made a good case.]

Fr. Amorth was asked by Tosatti how he knows Vatican clergy are involved. He answered, "I know from those who have been able to relate it to me because they had a way of knowing directly[Is that ... what... second or third hand?] And it’s something ‘confessed’ most times by the very demon under obedience during the exorcisms."  [Now that would be first hand!]

The famous Italian exorcist was also asked if the Pope was aware of Satanic sects in the Vatican, to which Fr. Amorth replied, "Of course, he was informed. But he does what he can. It’s a horrifying thing."

Benedict XVI, being German, comes from a place "decidedly averse to these things," argued Fr. Amorth, saying that in Germany "there practically aren’t any exorcists." [And they need them.  Just like everyone else.] However, he clarified, "the Pope believes (in them)."

The Italian priest also warned of the existence of bishops and priests who do not believe in Satan in the interview.  "And yet, in the Gospel, Jesus speaks extensively about it, so it should be said, either they’ve never read the Gospel or they just don’t believe it!"  [Yep.  That is indeed the case.  I have had conversations with priests who don't believe in the Enemy, or in Hell.]

Fr. Jose Antonio Fortea Cucurull, a Spanish priest and theologian who specializes in demonology and is now studying for his doctorate of theology in Rome, responded to Fr. Amorth’s assertions on March 1.

After reading reports of Fr. Amorth’s accusations pointing a finger at members of the clergy, including cardinals, Fr. Fortea declared that it is a "duty of justice" to speak out in their defense.

Noting that some prelates "are more spiritual and others more earthly, some more virtuous and others more human," he wrote on his blog, [BLOG?] "from there to affirm that some cardinals are members of Satanic sects is an unacceptable distance."

The Spanish priest then explained the sources of information used by Fr. Amorth to say that Satanic sects are operating in the Vatican.

In addition to the people that seek help for demonic possession, said Fr. Fortea, "innumerable persons come to us who claim to have visions, revelations and messages from Our Lord." Among these, "a certain number offer apocalyptic messages and revelations about the infiltration of Satanism and the Masons within the dome of the Church."

Fr. Fortea added that the only acceptable stance is to suspend judgment of the messages while they are subjected to time-intensive discernment, "sometimes months for each one of the cases."  [The fellow is sounding rather reasonable.]

The other source Fr. Amorth refers to, according to Fr. Fortea, is the demons who are being exorcised. Of this, the Spanish priest wrote that knowing whether or not the demon is telling the truth "is in many cases impossible." [Yes.  I think we are dealing with the "father of lies".... no?]

"We can know with great confidence when a demon tells the truth in the subject directly related with the exorcism. That is, the number of demons, their name and similar things. But we cannot be confident in what regards concrete news relating to people."

"Father Amorth does not have other sources of knowledge than the two that I just cited," indicated the Spanish exorcist, "I refer to his own words for this affirmation."

Fr. Fortea observed that the existence of similar messages from the same sources is "something known by me just as (it has been) by many other colleagues for many years."

"Among exorcists, some have come to similar conclusions as those of Fr. Amorth. Others have not.[Auctores scinduntur.]

Fr. Fortea also defended those implicated in Fr. Amorth’s statements, stating, "Our College of Cardinals, if we compare it with past centuries is the most edifying and virtuous that history has ever known. One would have to go back to the epoch of the Roman Empire to find a body of electors so distanced from all earthly pretension as the current one is.

"Cardinals might be better or worse," he reflected, "but all have upright intentions and seek the glory of God."  [That describes just about everyone.  But... but... ]

He concluded by emphasizing, "Statements must be proven, especially when they are about such grave accusations that affect the honorability of those who form part of the Head of the Church as far as they help the Supreme Pastor."

 

So, there it is.  Perhaps we can have some discussion. 

But if someone has a nutty, I will exorcise him from the blog along with his comments.

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102 Responses to Roman exorcist says there are satanic groups in Vatican

  1. DavidJ says:

    Would it surprise me that the enemy has infiltrated the highest ranks? No, not at all. With or without proof, our (the laity) recourse is to pray for our leaders, that they be true to the Gospel and that God protect them from all evil influences.

    Stating that our College of Cardinals is the most virtuous that history has ever known seems (even if it is true) a bit hyperbolic, though. I hope it is so!

  2. Geoffrey says:

    This reeks of “conspiracy theory” and another Dan Brown novel!

    Seriously, it is a scary thought and while anything is possible, I personally really doubt it. I have studied these things and for such a thing to be possible, the individual would be leading a double-life… publicly delivering homilies and saying Mass one moment, and secretly worshiping the Evil One the next. The person would have to be beyond clever and downright fiendish… I just don’t see anyone in the Sacred College of Cardinals being able to do that.

    Another interesting point: In the history of the Church, there have been clergy who practiced occult rites, but not worship. There is a branch of sorcery that does not worship the Evil One and his minions but rather attempts to summon and control them, using words and formulas similar to those found in the Rite of Exorcism. Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the taming “occult powers” and “recourse to the intervention of demons” (n. 2117).

    In the end, I will take solace in something I just happened to read today: “I believe in the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, against which, as promised to Saint Peter, the gates of hell will never prevail” (Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira).

  3. Fr. Amorth seems positively reckless, and Fr. Fortea so sober. I remember listening to a talk Fr. Fortea gave to seminarians and someone asking him about C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters. The good priest opined that the Letters were good and edifying literature, but that they portray devils as far more dashing than they really are. (My paraphrase from memory). I can’t imagine C.S. Lewis disagreeing with him, and I hope that Fr. Fortea’s sobriety–both his willingness to talk about demonic realities and his focused determination not to sensationalize them–catch on. In my worthless opinion, his approach is exactly what is needed.

  4. Father Ignotus says:

    Ed Peters has had little positive to say about Fr. Amorth, having reviewed one of his books -
    http://www.canonlaw.info/a_amorth.htm
    - and also having reviewed some of his public comments -
    http://www.canonlaw.info/2006/08/fr-amorths-latest-contribution-to.html

    I have always wondered about the prudence of exorcists’ speaking publicly in the way that Amorth (and a few others, recently) have done/do. So what, if there are some Cardinals dabbling in bad stuff? Does the whole world need to know? Especially since no names are named? At best I think it is imprudent, for the fact that it could lead others to judge cardinals and form their own opinions about which ones *might* be involved in the occult. At worst, I think it is imprudent, for the fact that it can also lead the curious into indulging their morose interests on a dangerous subject. There is no shortage of people who are “intrigued” by the devil, demonology, exorcisms, etc., who really have no business studying the subject as much as they do.

    In the end, I am left wondering: Why did Fr. Amorth think it necessary to comment publicly on this matter (regardless of whether what he says is true or not)? I can think of no good reason. Besides the reasons that I listed above, there is one more: By proclaiming so vaguely — with no apparent motive — “there are some Cardinals who are involved in the occult”, it only gives fodder to the enemies of the Church who already believe that the Catholic Church is the work of Satan.

  5. Maltese says:

    *But if someone has a nutty, I will exorcise him from the blog along with his comments.* Lol, Father! I think Father Malachi Martin (Hostage to the Devil) did a pretty good treatment on the subject; but, overall, I think ol’ scratch is pretty happy existing in the shadows these days; letting things degenerate and disentangle as they are!

  6. Central Valley says:

    I recall listening to several interviews of Fr. Malachi Martin in which he spoke of similar things. It makes one wonder. Fr. Martin also linked these types as haters of the traditional Mass. Is there a connection? I don’t know, but I woudl lead to believing Fr. Amorth. St. Michael, pray for us.

  7. Manrique Zabala de Arizona says:

    Leaving aside any belief in terrenal things, we are indeed speaking of the Father of Lies, who will do ANYTHING to divide the Church and undermine our faith in it. If we start doubting about cardinals, the Pope is next in line, so we better be extra-careful when addressing this matters.

    That said, Fr. Amroth is the official exorcist of the Roman diocese while Fr. Fortea acts on his own. It’s been like that for some year now. In addition, he’s a nice person but in his blog he adresses several issues, from elevated doctrine and church-related news to “I had a walk today kind of subjects… Like others ;) But at least here we get to see great pictures of fine fine food, haha!

  8. Rev. Philip-Michael says:

    All I can say is that even if it were true, and I don’t believe it to be, Fr Amorth is a fool for bringing attention to something that, if he actually believes that he must combat against, would now know t…hat he knows. Not to mention the little issue of rupturing the internal forum. He states he knows these things are happening from that which was gleaned during Exorcisms-that is privileged information. Personally I think Fr Amorth needs to shut his mouth, if for nothing else but prudence. Those who detract from the Church have long accused priests & such of satanism to disgrace the Church. Amorth should think about the source of his information before giving it such a high level of credence! Furthermore, one must question what type of priest, no matter what their ministry is, uses their ministry to gain notoriety and public renown!

  9. Mark of the Vine says:

    If any one is curious, here’s Fr. Fortea’s blog (in Spanish, obviously): http://blogdelpadrefortea.blogspot.com/

  10. Mary Kay says:

    I have much respect for Fr. Amorth. I’ve also seen him ridiculed by Catholics who don’t know what Fr. Amorth has dealt with. That said, Satanic sects is bit difficult.

    It makes sense that the more one strives for holiness and saving souls, the more Satan will try to “dissuade” that person. What this news article points to is the importance of relying on the Church’s wisdom and discernment and praying for those on the front lines of the spiritual battle.

  11. ipadre says:

    I agree with Fr. Fortea, but at the same time, we know the extremes that we human beings can go. All we need do is look to the Apostles – traitors, deniers, beloveds, doubters and everything in between. Why would it be different today. I am sure there are some Bishops, Priests and maybe even Cardinals who are involved in the dark side, but I KNOW there are many who are saints!

    There is something I learned long ago. Sinners or saints, the Church will survive despite us, it is God’s work, not ours!

  12. Well, if Jesus chose Judas, it’s possible that there are some “successors” of Judas in the Church today. To what good end, God only knows; for that, we must pray.

  13. Sorbonnetoga says:

    Fr Amorth (in his two books published by Ignatius) makes sense some of the time but his style is a bit sensationalist; Fr Fortea’s book (Ascension Press, 2006) is much more sober and has a solid theological basis to it. Just from their published works (in English) I would be inclined to trust Fortea more than Amorth, if only because he puts the whole topic into its proper theological context.

  14. TNCath says:

    This doesn’t surprise me one bit. I think the influence of the Evil One, like a virus for which a vaccine has been developed, has built up a resistance to the sacred and is able to operate within the Vatican. I also think that the leagues of resistance to the Holy Father working within the Vatican who are attempting to hijack and contain his “Marshall Plan.” Never has the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel ever been more relevant than it is today.

  15. Glen M says:

    If true, Satan’s presence in the Vatican certainly would explain a few things. Satan got to one of the Apostles so getting to cardinals is possible. I know of priests who don’t believe in Satan or exorcisms, which leads me to wonder what other doctrine and tenants they disagree with.

  16. Allan S. says:

    For my part, I have read and enjoyed Fr. Amorth’s two books to date. Well, “enjoyed” might be the wrong word here. They were informative. I’ll spare everyone the details, but I had a very real encounter with the evil one that made me realize evil was not a concept or an adjective, but a very real being.

    Fr. Amorth did a very good job of classifying the distinct types of diabolical attacks (it’s not all possession ya know) and gave some seemingly sound advice and prayers laity may use to protect themselves. All very helpful, “where the rubber hits the road” kind of stuff. He also observed (and I’ll misquote here, or misattribute I’m sure) that “where the Church builds a Cathedral, the devil builds a chapel.” So the notion that evil would infiltrate or seek to adulterate goodness and holiness by invading the Church, or the College of Cardinals, is not really absurd. We are the Church militant, and being mere humans we are all capable of being attacked.

    I think Fr. Amorth’s rather outlandish conclusions, and they way he has chosen to state them, are perhaps a product of what he clearly sees as neglect by the Church of her exorcists and the “playing down” of the existence of the devil and hell.

    So, let’s add a little bit of salt to the over the top pieces of his discourse, but absorb it all the same. IMO.

  17. ssoldie says:

    The devil, satan, beelzebub, prince of darkness, the evil one, is alive, well, and lives among us. Let us not forget Eve, and because he is the great deceiver he can take many forms. How he loves to create confusion, chaos, disruption, doubts, etc. His purpose, is enticing souls in order to capture them. I would suggest the book; “The Deceiver”,Our Daily Struggle With Satan by Livio Fanzaga.

  18. Nathan says:

    Might I suggest we take a moment and say a prayer to good St Joseph, Patron of the Universal Church, for those trapped by the father of lies? How horrible it must be to, after receiving the graces of Holy Orders, and to be in a position of authority in Christ’s Church, to realize that one is trapped and that the devil is a much harsher master than Christ and his Vicar.

    In Christ,

  19. becket1 says:

    Fr,

    Does the church ever release the actual names of the demons. I have always read that the name of the demon must be exposed. But we never read about their names. Is it a secret?.

  20. Sedgwick says:

    Fr. Malachi Martin writes, in “Windswept House,” of a satanic enthronement ceremony that took place on 6/29/63 simultaneously by telephone in Charleston SC and at the Vatican – and many of the participants were high-ranking clergy. Martin stated that this was factual. He also, I believe, stated (during the 1990s) that there were 4 Masonic lodges active in the Vatican.

    As for this statement:

    …knowing whether or not the demon is telling the truth “is in many cases impossible.

    Judging from Martin’s own accounts of exorcisms, I would say that one of the prime characteristics of demons is that they like to boast. In my opinion, Fr. Fortea is quite naive. And notice that his defense of the College of Cardinals is equivocal at best – a relativistic comparison to past Colleges! Something like defending the US Congress because it has more Catholics than at any other period in US history – conveniently forgetting that most of them are pro-abortion “Catholics.”

  21. Henry Edwards says:

    TNCath: Never has the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel ever been more relevant than it is today.

    Perhaps you mean Pope Leo’s original Prayer to St. Michael in its complete 1888 form — allegedly written after a terrifying vision of the future of the Church — including

    “These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the Spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.”

  22. #1 Satan amd Hell are real.
    #2 I agree with the comment that he is happy lurking in the shadows of which there are seemingly more and more gray each day.
    #3 I agree with Father Fortea that some “are more spiritual and others more earthly, some more virtuous and others more human,”
    #4 To stretch ol scratch to every corner of imperfection seems unjust.
    #5 Ignorance is not the devil’s bed; cunning and deceptive, are.
    #6 I do question the timing of this message as this is the time that the world always attacks the Church by denying her from the inside with untruths. While I do not deny or disagree with what Father Amorth writes, it is poor timing at best.
    #7 It is sad the aversion to teaching about Satan and Hell.

    However, it does concern me greatly that there are those lay, consecrated and clergy alike on the “inside” of Holy Church that are not walking in ignorance, but instead find many an occasion to actively and deceptively work against her on nearly a daily basis. This secularization is misleading souls and creating the shadows for the Father of Lies and his demons. These persons are doing the devil’s work under the guise of doing the Lord’s work like wolves in sheeps clothing.

    Pray for the exorcists that help protect us.

    Pray for the conversion of those against Holy Mother Church.

    Saint Michael, Pray for us!

  23. Roland de Chanson says:

    In 1972, Paul VI said: il Santo Padre ha la sensazione che «da qualche fessura sia entrato il fumo di Satana nel tempio di Dio»

    Fr. Amorth confirms what the Pope sensed.

  24. haleype says:

    In my opinion if we cannot trust the exorcists to know when the Father of Lies is lying, then we have little hope that the exorcisms will be successful. Evil is present in the world without any doubt and to think that it has not infected the Vatican Hierarchy in some measure, at least, is naive to the extreme. That said, we cannot and must not throw all members of the hierarchy under the bus. Prayer is the only answer.

  25. Marius2k4 says:

    You will know them by their fruits.

    Allow me–one who has suffered under demonic oppression for years, after dabbling in the occult as a teenager–to just posit this: be wary of those who are more concerned with the mundane than the sacred; more in love with the grotesque than the sublime; be wary of those who seek to modernize, and cut us off from the taproot of holiness–the font of Truth. Innovators, renovators and those who would substitute an enslaved peace to a righteous battle (see confessors who minimize one’s sins, and do not offer the ammunition needed to combat them) deprive those who most need help of the munitial graces of aid. You will know them by their fruits.

    I hope, Father, that you won’t consider this a ‘nutty’. It’s just a rather sensitive topic for me, as I’ve done battle daily for a decade, now, (except when giving up momentarily and going on sin binges for a week at a time, here or there, over the past years–during which state of sin I was quite relieved of the oppressive influence and pains, altogether, until resuming my battle) and rightly recognize the enemy’s power. While it may certainly be imprudent to lob accusations at the Sodanos of the world, and in reality I do not think it the best approach for a number of reasons, we must, as the Church Militant, flee from complacency and ensure that every action we take is a step toward God and holiness, and away from the secular and the profane. There is no secular act.

    “Vade retro, Satanas!”

  26. Ralph says:

    Perhaps Paul VI’s “Smoke of Satin” comment was related to this? I know many feel he was speaking of “lukewarm” clergy, but perhaps he knew of an even greater threat?

    Father, your comment “Yep. That is indeed the case. I have had conversations with priests who don’t believe in the Enemy, or in Hell.” is so freightening to me. When our Priests fail to even admit the existance of Satin, how can they teach the faithful how to avoid him and his temptations? It’s like a shepherd telling the sheep, “there is no wolf”. How much easier he makes it for Canis Lupus do get a nice lamb snack!!

  27. Ruben says:

    I wonder, if Bella Dodd, who was a former communist and convert of Fulton Sheen’s, could affirm personally that she knew of a few cardinals and hundreds of priests that were themselves working for the communists against the church, than it doesn’t seem so remarkable that there would be satanic groups working against the church as Fr Amorth alleges. I really believe that if the devil did not have prelates and priests operating in the Church in this way, that the devil would not be so smart. But really, we do know he is that smart.

  28. maynardus says:

    Perhaps Paul VI’s “Smoke of Satin” comment was related to this? I know many feel he was speaking of “lukewarm” clergy, but perhaps he knew of an even greater threat?

    According to Cardinal Virgilio Noe, Paul VI’s “Smoke of Satan” comment was referring to liturgical abuses:

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/05/petrus-amazing-interview-with-card-noe-paul-vis-smoke-of-satan-remark-concerned-liturgy/

    See what you can learn by reading W.D.T.P.R.S.?

  29. moon1234 says:

    Read AA1025 Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle. It is a book written from the memoirs of a man who was a communist. He was sent by the Soviet Union to enter the seminary, along with thousands of other loyal Marxists. Their goal? To infiltrate the church and destroy it from the inside. It is a detailed description of how they did it and to what level many of their brother rose. Some remained as parish priests, while others rose to the level of Cardinal. Their goal was to change the structure of the church so that the average Catholic would no longer believe in (and fight for) the rights of the individual Catholic.

    To say that this is not the some of satan is naive. The devil is real. The danger is that once you know who a devil is, you open yourself up to attack by them. Devils do NOT like to be known, either by name or presence. An exorcist must face a great burden. He will see and know things that could torment him the rest of his life.

    St. Thomas Becket and St. Michael pray for us, keep us close to the church and help us to be made worthy!

    http://www.amazon.com/Aa-1025-Memoirs-Communists-infiltration-Church/dp/0895554496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267718613&sr=1-1

  30. Roland de Chanson says:

    I think that the scope of Papa Montini’s “smoke of Satan” reference was broader than just the liturgy. He gave the context himself as “the situation of the Church today” and goes on to explain what he means. It is on the Vatican website at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/homilies/1972/documents/hf_p-vi_hom_19720629_it.html.

  31. gloriainexcelsis says:

    I seem to recall that quite awhile back Pope Benedict XVI said that he wanted exorcists in every diocese. I’m sure he is aware that the father of lies is everywhere, including the Vatican. The long prayer to St. Michael is in the 1962 Missal. Pope Leo XIII’s prayer against Satan and the Rebellious Angels is there, also. That good Pope believed that priests should say the prayer often. Lay people can also say it as a form of exorcism if they think they are being targeted. It can also be used for public exorcism. Pope Leo XIII’s prayers after Mass are in the Missal, as well. We say them after every Low Mass, and that includes the short form prayer to St. Michael. I beg his defense several times a day. We need him, truly. I also pray for the protection of our Holy Father daily, asking the intercession of Our Lady Mother of the Church, St. Joseph Patron of the Universal Church, and St. Peter. When I see what happens in some of our churches and hear the words that come from some of the priests, bishops and religious, I know that Lucifer and his minions are very busy these days – everywhere – leading souls to damnation.

  32. robtbrown says:

    Seriously, it is a scary thought and while anything is possible, I personally really doubt it. I have studied these things and for such a thing to be possible, the individual would be leading a double-life… publicly delivering homilies and saying Mass one moment, and secretly worshiping the Evil One the next. The person would have to be beyond clever and downright fiendish… I just don’t see anyone in the Sacred College of Cardinals being able to do that.
    Comment by Geoffrey

    Double life? Such as saying mass and delivering homilies one moment, and secretly hitting on altar boys the next?

    Man is subject to a three-fold temptation–the world, the flesh, and devil. It’s wrong to assume that every temptation is directly from the devil (although, as St Thomas says, the devil is the first cause of evil). For an exorcist, however, it is understandable that he be so inclined.

    On the other hand, it’s equally wrong to assume that every temptation is reducible to the world and the flesh. There are grades of temptations (and sins)–not all are carnal.

  33. robtbrown says:

    According to Cardinal Virgilio Noe, Paul VI’s “Smoke of Satan” comment was referring to liturgical abuses:
    Comment by maynardus

    As I said before, the liturgical smoke of satan entered St Peter’s through the holes left in the floor when Cardinal Noe removed the altar under the Chair.

  34. Oneros says:

    “Our College of Cardinals, if we compare it with past centuries is the most edifying and virtuous that history has ever known. One would have to go back to the epoch of the Roman Empire to find a body of electors so distanced from all earthly pretension as the current one is.”

    Ha! Talk about naive! I don’t buy the whole “Satanic sect” thing…but this is just foolish. The form the corruption takes is different, but the clergy and hierarchy are as corrupt today as in the Renaissance. This sort of neo-con idealizing of the current pope, current clergy, etc…is a dangerous cult of personality surrounding them. That, in itself, may be a satanic sects of sorts…

  35. Henry Edwards says:

    Roland: I think that the scope of Papa Montini’s “smoke of Satan” reference was broader than just the liturgy. He gave the context himself as “the situation of the Church today” and goes on to explain what he means. It is on the Vatican website at

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/homilies/1972/documents/hf_p-vi_hom_19720629_it.html.

    This is in Italian, but an English translation is given at

    http://the-american-catholic.com/2010/03/01/pope-paul-vi-and-the-smoke-of-satan/

  36. QMJ says:

    I have no doubt that the enemy could infiltrate the Vatican. Whether this has actually happened to the degree that Fr. Amorth claims cannot be known with certainty by someone such as myself. Regardless of the truth or falsity of Fr. Amorth’s claims our only recourse is prayer.

  37. THREEHEARTS says:

    I would like to ask a question following this statement. I was taught as a kid that someone always hears our prayers. The Penny catechism I was brought up on by my religion asks Do those pray well who, at their prayers, think neither of God nor of what they say (think) Answer . Those who, at their prayers, think neither of God, nor of what they say, do not pray well; but they offend God, if their distractions are willful.

    Does God listen to those who are distracted, especially since the Church teaches God often gives us what we need not what we ask for. I would suggest from all of the above that perhaps the wrong one always hating, always seeking to win our hearts listens.

    Does this mean that we can be unknowingly praying to the wrong spirit. I think so. Would this not suggest a satanic prayer time which we should avoid by considering deeply how we pray. Could not the Mass be effected in this way through distractions? Is it any different for any rank in the Church, priest, religious or laity? I see that Fr. Amorth does not differentiate between deliberate and an accident, shall I say, through a lack of prayerful consideration. I believe when the then Fr Malachi Martin wrote in the same vein, he was vilified. Remember the Church teaches be careful what you pray for. She should also teach loudly and clearly be careful how you pray. Pray I say with intelligence. Know every word your tongue and mind forms and utters. Prayer is the use of our intellect this is another separation from us and the brutes.
    I trust I do not offend anyone but I do ask for the sake of all our souls pray at the speed that we understand every word we use.

  38. MikeM says:

    I think we should keep in mind that Satan would love any opportunity to attack the Church. I don’t like the idea of public musings on Satanic Cardinals, but as faithful Catholics, we should keep in mind that Satan is real, he will target the Church, and that, therefore, we should be on guard to fight him and keep him out of our ranks.

    Satan’s power is real, but it is nothing compared to the infinite power of Almighty God.

  39. Sedgwick says:

    Henry Edwards

    Perhaps you mean Pope Leo’s original Prayer to St. Michael in its complete 1888 form—allegedly written after a terrifying vision of the future of the Church—including

    I’ve been told that the alleged origin of the full Prayer is strictly apocalyptic, and have never been able to find any evidence to the contrary – though I would certainly like to. Have you ever found a reliable source for this story?

  40. DarkKnight says:

    Fr. Martin’s “Windswept House” uses allegorical names for some of the Satanic cardinals. Some are only now retiring out and when one looks at the legacies that they have left in their various Archdioceses, it is hard not to agree that there was an infernal presence manifest there.

    I believe that Fr. Fortea simply would prefer to keep such dirty laundry out of the press, lest innocent priests get tarred. I also believe that JPII and BXVI have tried to replace these influences without causing scandal in the church at large.

  41. AJP says:

    I found Fr. Amorth’s original comments very troubling; I am very glad that Fr. Fortea spoke up and clarified the matter. The impression I get of the situation is that Fr. Amorth, Fr. Fortea, and other priests at the Vatican have encountered many people who are either possesed or who claim visions. A fair number of both groups of people are probably mentally ill. Some of these people claim there are satanic sects operating in the Vatican. It’s extremely hard to verify such a claim given the sources. Some priests think it’s true, some priests don’t – and not because they don’t believe in Satan but because they don’t feel the evidence for the claim (possessed people, questionable visionaries, mentally ill people) is trustworthy.

    It’s very important to distinguish between a situation where individual cardinals or clergy are possessed, oppressed, or dabbling in the occult and where a group of them has actively and deliberately organized into a satanic sect that acts as a corporate body to do evil. The former situation is not implausible (although it still requires serious proof) but the latter situation strikes me as very implausible. I’m sorry but when I hear terms like “satanic cult” or “satanic sect” I immediately start thinking “Dan Brown territory.” I’ve spent a decent amount of time studying the “satanic panic” of the 1980s, where dozens of people were accused of and jailed for participating in satanic cults and ritual abuse without a shred of evidence besides “recovered memories.” I am very skeptical of any claim involving organized satanism; these claims need irrefutable evidence, because they are so damaging to the accused. But if one studies the matter some, there simply isn’t much evidence of organized satanic cults existing, much less engaging in ritual abuse and such. I’m not saying it’s never happened – it may have been more common in previous centuries, and it may be more common in other countries (like Italy for example) than it is in the USA. But at the end of the day, I think the threat of organized satanic sects is over-exaggerated and should be approached with the boulder of salt that we use when dealing with claims of UFOs.

    Instead we would do well as a Church to simply focus on the basics – Satan and Hell are real, and Satan is one of three sources of temptation. Possession is not something just from movies, it is a real although probably rare phenomenon. More common is demonic oppression. I would really like to hear the Church talk about this more, clarify what it is and what it isn’t – because it is a scary thing and there is so much misinformation and misunderstanding out there.

    And finally, if a priest or bishop or cardinal denies the existence of Satan, this is a huge problem and must be addressed by the Church. Why are there no consequences for such men? Why don’t the bishops do more about this? And in the case of bishops or cardinals, why doesn’t the Pope do something? The buck has to stop somewhere. How hard would it be to remove such men from public ministry – make them go to a monastery or something?

  42. Erik P says:

    I believe scripture (revelation i think???) says that “His church” will be intact when he comes again. I have faith that the church will endure. Hey think of it this way, if we survived VII we can survive any blatant attack offered from even the highest clergy. Maybe some scripture buffs know the book/chapter/verse that talks about this?

  43. Desertfalcon says:

    If Fr. Amorth really cares about God’s Holy Church and is not to be taken for a loon on this issue then it is incumbent upon him to NAME those clerics he believes to be the devil’s tool or stop casting blind accusations. In America his tactic is akin to saying that he has the names of 57 card carrying communists in the state department and will leave it up to the most paranoid as to whom they actually are.

  44. I’ve certainly been edified by Fr. Amorth’s previous books, but I am also well aware of his flare for the dramatic. And I don’t doubt that his claims are certainly possible, or that he is just making it up – if Satan can infiltrate the 12 Apostles, then certainly no clergy is exempt, including Cardinals. However, it seems awfully imprudent to me for Fr. Amorth to make these claims publicly.

  45. Steve K. says:

    Is it really so implausible to believe this, what Fr. Amorth maintains? After all that has happened with the sexual abuse scandals, and the silence and cover ups right up the hierarchy, and after all the deep and open dissent from basic and essential Church dogma, which also reaches right up into the top of the hierarchy, that some clerics are not who they seem to be? Most of our civic institutions have been wrecked by a gramscian march through the institutions, people who began and conducted careers in them with the intent to subvert and undermine them, why would the Church escape notice of the enemy?

  46. Desertfalcon says:

    To Steve K.: It may not be hard to believe to some extent but what if all we knew of the sexual abuse scandal is that a blanket claim were made that “so many Bishops and priests have sexually abused and assaulted so many minor children”, and NO names were given or specific charge made by the accuser? It’s effect is to cast doubt on all, on the Church herself, and Fr. Amorth is wrong to do so. If he has such evidence or is privy to any credible information concerning this it is called “put up or shut up” time. It says something about the character of a man who will not display the courage to call those he accuses out publicly.

  47. Luke says:

    It would make a good movie, but Christ wins in the end. Therefore, Hollywood will never produce it. The interesting thing about “scratch”, as someone called him above, is that whatever he says–is in fact the words heard by Father Amorth were heard from him–has a distorted meaning or intention. What would happen if we asked the question, “so what?” If we knew names would we have evidence enough to take action? Or should we continue striving to live holy live after the virtues Christ exemplified? I would suggest that if those in the Church who hold that Satan is merely an invention of our own imagination began taking the battle for good and evil seriously that we would be a more powerful force for the side of the good. Having said all of this, I don’t believe that pointing fingers at the clergy is a fruitful endeavor. But then, I will never face evil after the manner which Father Amorth has. And what he must experience in that battle sheds light for me on his decision to speak so freely.

  48. AJP says:

    Steve K,

    I actually think the possibility of organized communist infiltration of the Church is far more plausible than organized satanic cults infiltrating the Church. I think communist infiltration is plausible because there is first and foremost evidence of organized communist groups existing (the Communist Party, obviously), and there is plenty of historical evidence from the last century that indicates communists have infiltrated various institutions (governments, armies, schools, labor unions, entertainment, churches, etc) and there is plenty of evidence of just how this happened. We can name names, give dates, and provide solid details as to what exactly happened and how it happened. We can back it up with documentation. All of these factors are lacking when it comes to allegations of satanic cults infiltrating the Church – and when it comes to allegations of satanic cults in general.

  49. AJP says:

    Luke,

    You make a good point. Fr. Amorth has experienced things most of us will (thank God) never even fathom. While that doesn’t mean he is necessarily correct with his latest claim (I obviously have my doubts) it could explain why he’s going public. Because to the rest of us, his motives seem very puzzling – it just seems like such an outright imprudent and hyperbolic thing to say.

  50. Luke says:

    AJP,

    What seems strange here to me is that what Father Amorth said was not doubted before he said it. We all–those who believe in the Gospel message–believe in the power of evil in the presence of any good. But those in the above article aren’t positing a solution. What good does it do to defend Cardinals if it is truly possible for one of them to be under the sway of evil? What good does it do to accuse them? The place in the gospel where the Apostles were unable to drive out the demons comes to my mind here. The message, it seems to me, is that every one of us in needed in this battle and we can only survive under the holy name of Jesus. But we all know that. Hmmm..so why would Father Amorth spout these words and allow them to be published? Could it be that he wants to alarm those who deny the existence of “old scratch”? And, if the cardinals are all innocent of willful cooperation with evil, then why do they need a defense? The second major problem in our Church is the repression of conscience. Interestingly enough, those who deny evil from without often deny the need to confess our sins or even its existence. Maybe Father Amorth is sounding an alarm at the cost of looking foolish because it’s that important. There have been many times in my own life when I have needed a wake up call. Nothing wakes us up to holiness like the reality of evil. Not, at least, in my own experience. It’s a good thing that God never abandons us.

  51. Henry Edwards says:

    Sedgwick,

    The bare fact seems to be that Pope Leo XIII published the longer St. Michael prayer in his motu proprio of 25 September 1888, as stated on page 366 of the 1898 Raccolta that you can find (in English translation) by doing a Google search on “New Raccolta”—with an indulgence of 300 days (once a day) to the faithful who recite the prayer.

    However, I doubt that the “pious legend” of the prayer’s provenance in Pope Leo’s alleged vision can be documented. The sources I’ve found all fall into the “he said that he said” category, such as those referenced in the Wikipedia article

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael#Another_prayer_to_St._Michael

    which itself could hardly be regarded as authoritative. In particular, I have found no evidence that Pope Leo himself actually put into writing any account of the origin of the prayer, nor indeed of the vision itself.

  52. robtbrown says:

    NB: Fr Amorth is an advocate of Medjugorje.

  53. Luke says:

    Point taken.

  54. Luke says:

    What I mean by “point taken” is simply that those who are eager to say, “Our Lady says”, or “Our Lady Said”, often give too much credence to private revelation. It isn’t required by our Catholic Faith exactly because it is questionable. Questionable, because we cannot be certain of the source. Father Fortea’s more cautious judgement regarding revelations does sound reasonable in the face of Father Amorth’s statements. I’m beginning to see the wisdom in the statement, “preach the gospel at all times. And when necessary use words.” Exorcist or not, Father Amorth could be no more sure than any one of us that scratch is or is not behind either a sect in the Vatican or the anomaly in Bosnia-Herzegovina.It seems that we will always be subject to the world, the flesh and the devil as robtbrown reminded us. As somebody stated above, it’s not a good time to bring down the good name of holy Church with useless allegations.

  55. Desertfalcon says:

    Luke: I don’t think anyone is claiming that there is no such thing as evil or satanic forces at work in the world or even within the Church, but Fr. Amorth is not sounding a “wake up call”, he is engaging in something that borders on calumny. Minus a specific evidential charge or information related to a specific Cardinal or member of the clergy, we are always to presume they are Christ’s vicars and defend them as we would Him, for they are His representatives. We are not to stand by and remain neutral against such blanket accusations. “Neutralitas non valet in regno Dei”

  56. Gil Garza says:

    The denial of sin, hell and Satan which has already been established would constitute demonic influence? No? The advocacy of such errors would be demonic? This seems to simple. Is it just me?

  57. Luke says:

    Desetfalcon,

    I now agree with you completely. I admit to having a certain admiration for Father Amorth until I learned about his support for the Bosnia-Herzegovina anomaly. Private revelation is something that I strongly oppose because of numerous personal encounters and much private study. Although this is not the place to digress from the subject of Father Amorth’s misstatements, I can now see how he would have been lead to make such fantastic remarks. He was wrong, in my own opinion, and you are right, Desertfalcon.

  58. Luke says:

    Desertfalcon,

    And yes, you are correct again to assert as St. Thomas did that we should never sit patiently by as God is offended. Just anger is called for in these cases.

  59. robtbrown says:

    The denial of sin, hell and Satan which has already been established would constitute demonic influence? No? The advocacy of such errors would be demonic? This seems to simple. Is it just me?
    Comment by Gil Garza

    Indirect influence but not direct–see above, satan as the first cause of evil. Sins of the flesh can produce vices that lead to spiritual blindness, and that would not be a direct consequence of demonic influence.

  60. asperges says:

    “Our College of Cardinals, if we compare it with past centuries is the most edifying and virtuous that history has ever known.” The world-weary cynic in us might tend to feel this is more spin than fact, but let us suppose it is correct.

    Would this not account for the vigour and progress that the Church is making now under this Pope to undo the errors and abuses of the last 40 years? Undeniably things are changing for the better. We must not underestimate God’s grace in these matters. Hope is a virtue. Not all news is bad.

  61. Ceile De says:

    I would not be surprised if the Evil One is at work in the Church but that does not mean that those who may do his bidding do so willingly or even knowingly. There is a certain line of logic that is easy to follow gullibly but in good conscience if taken in isolation step by step. To take a completely random example:

    1. Celebrate Mass facing the people, not as orientem. It includes people more.
    2. Well, it is wrong for the priest to have his back to the Tabernacle…so, given 1, we should move the Tabernacle.
    3. The Tabernacle should be moved to a separate, prominent, place.
    4. OK, now that there’s no Tabernacle in the Sanctuary, folks, there’s no need to genuflect.
    5. Now that you’re not genuflecting, it doesn’t make sense to kneel for Communion.
    Etc. etc.

    You get the idea – each suggestion taken alone may make sense but by the time the pattern is discernible, it’s harder to fight, even if the true motives only later become apparent.

    My big question is: why on earht is there a new rite of exorcism? I mean, do they demons need to be exorcised in their vernacular? Was there not enough active participation of demons before? Was the Latin too tough for them to follow? I mean, whatever the justification for tinkering with the Mass, why on earth was a reform of the rite of exorcism thought necessary?

    (Or does it turn out that folk music and liturgical dancing were originally intended to repel demons more than than lay people?)

  62. Ceile De says:

    PS I am not suggesting any demonic influence in the NO Mass – my example above is purely to show how selective logic and argumentation can deceive good people. I pray that the reforms I outlined above were driven by an ever deepening belief in the True Presence.

  63. Luke says:

    Celle De: LOL!

    BTW Desertfalcon, the number of card-carrying communists is 41: 40 czars plus the man holding executive office. They don’t exactly hide it from us.

    It’s true that Father Amorth should name names, but then maybe he alluded to that when he said that Pope Benedict knows about this, which leaves us saying that he was out of line in making such statements.

    It’s also true that leaders in the Church who deny articles of faith are a problem. But then heresy and dissent will be present as long as we are. Our hope is in the name of the Lord who made heaven and earth, right? If we shipped them to a monastery we would be doing a disservice to the monastic life and to the truth of vocation.

  64. MaryMaria says:

    Pray the Prayer to Saint Michael on page 1795 of the 1962 Roman Missal…..just in case!

  65. Dave N. says:

    I’m always skeptical of someone who makes pretty incendiary comments and is simultaneously pitching a book on the same topic. And I’m skeptical of journalists who act as a mouthpiece for the same.

    “Our College of Cardinals, if we compare it with past centuries is the most edifying and virtuous that history has ever known.”

    So this is as good as it gets? How depressing. I’d like to see the research he’s done to support such a statement.

  66. BenFischer says:

    With all the Communists and Masons in the Vatican, who’d have time to organize a black mass? ;)

    Clearly when you look at the present and past scandals in the Church, it’s obvious that quality control has been low on personnel appointments in the past few decades, but these conspiracy theories don’t wash for a simple reason: they assume a Church which is incompetent and immoral, but an enemy which is neither.

    For the communists, masons or devil worshippers to get to the highest levels of the Vatican, they’d need to do everything perfectly for years and decades. They’d need to maintain absolute secrecy in their actions and never ever rat anyone out. If Comrade A thinks Comrade B is a low-down dirty skunk, he still has to pull strings to get him into the Chancery office, or the Nuncio’s office, or the Vatican. And if he decides his protege is too much trouble, he has to get rid of him without raising eyebrows or giving the game away. Comrade B can’t get disgruntled and spill the beans to Sandro Magister and dead bodies tend to collect attention. And that has to happen over, and over, and over for years on end throughout different leadership changes.

    This from a group of people who couldn’t figure out how to make a good car.

    The same argument can be made for everyone else. It’s easy to ascribe super-human powers to your enemies, but it’s unrealistic. The communists and masons are as incompetent as everyone else. As to the devil worshippers, I remember reading a delicious headline in the early 2000′s that said “Has the Church of Satan gone to Hell?” because of all the back-stabbing and intrigue surrounding that group since Levay died.

    Now, a lot of people in the Vatican are European, and a lot of Europeans look like Socialists to red-in-the-tooth capitalists in the US of A. And there may be individuals who enjoy a good Masonic ritual now and then, and possibly even a couple of people who are a little more interested in black arts then they should be. But widespread infiltration to the point our poor Holy Father is afraid to “pull on that thread lest the whole thing unravel”? Please.

  67. Luke says:

    But then, maybe Father Amorth was commenting on a Dan Brown movie and Tosatti neglected to note that in the book of memoirs.

  68. tioedong says:

    As a doc, I’ve had only one who made me shudder because of the odor of evil (he was a politician who was there with his wife). Other patients seemed to be oppressed by the devil, and I prayed for their protection before putting them on anti depressants and arranging psychiatric referral.

    But I’ve also had depressed or schizophrenic patients come to me, convinced they were possessed…yet my impression was that of holiness, and that the devil was playing on their delusions to bring them to despair…

    The only “exorcism” that I ran into was in Africa. One of our priests, a klutzy but holy man, was saying mass when a woman came in naked, screaming obscenities and threatening the congregation. He didn’t know what to do, so he ordered Satan to leave her, at which point she fainted and when she regained consciousness, she was okay.

    He asked me if this was Satanic; maybe, or maybe just hysteria. Either way, the name of Jesus cured her.

  69. catholicmidwest says:

    “This from a group of people who couldn’t figure out how to make a good car.” Okay, now I’m laughing because it’s so so so true. Quality control, indeed. The whole thing is abysmal about 99% of the time. It’s a fair thing to wonder how on earth the Church has lasted this long the way it operates. God MUST exist. ;)

    I don’t doubt what Fr. Amorth says when it comes to individuals; about groups, less sure, simply because it would be harder to maintain, organize and contain. The powers of evil tend to be braggarts, sneaky ones, but still braggarts.

    As for the ability of the rest of the church to be able to tell if or who…LOL. WE couldn’t corporately put the wheels on a tricycle on a good day with help and tools, let alone build a good car.

  70. Mark R says:

    I would like to believe Fr. Amorth, but in this case it may be that when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  71. Supertradmom says:

    Fr. Amorth is a highly respected exorcist, whose books are used by some exorcists in the United States for teaching and discernment. This comment is not a “fly-by-night”statement, but a warning, and I think an awareness that evil may be found anywhere.

    I cannot agree with those who deny evil possession, or confuse psychological states with Satanic influence. An innocent person may be possessed or cursed, not only those who practice Satanism. It does not matter how the devil leads people astray, whether by atheism, communism, sloth, greed, or satanic practices.

    We just need to be vigilant and pray for all the bishops and cardinals in the Church, as well as our priests,and not be naive. How is this private revelation anyway, when it could be just knowledge of such things and such people?

  72. Supertradmom says:

    By the way, hasn’t Father Corapi talked about the different types of dalliance with the devil?

  73. Ceile De says:

    While we’re on it, does anyone know how the Archdiocese of Toronto is able to say:

    “The Archdiocese of Toronto does not have an exorcist nor does it perform the rite of exorcism.”

    It sounds like they reject the whole concept of possession there. Are they entitled, as a Catholic diocese, to do so?

  74. Luke says:

    It’s one thing to say that evil is so real and that exorcists are so necessary that we are forming an international society of them. It’s entirely different to suggest that Cardinals are part of a diabolical SECT (of all things) based on unreliable statements. In the least those statements should have been reserved for the Pope alone. What use are those statements to the general public? They seem undermining and harmful to me the more I think about them. Published in a book no less. Father Amorth has done a great deal of good, but in matters of private revelation (vision, locutions or passing statements made by others) he errs.

    In my own opinion, when we stray from what we can discern via Faith and the public revelation of Scripture and Tradition, we leave ourselves open to making rash statements such as described above.

    I further believe that the similarity between multiple Catholic Rites is proof that we could indeed put the wheels on a tricycle and more. The Holy Spirit has kept us afloat even when we would have sunk ourselves by choice.

  75. Supertradmom says:

    I still do not understand why some here are referring to errs in private revelation? I have read Father Amorth’s books, compared them with the lives of several great saints who battled the devil, and did not find any discrepancies. Again, if those in the field admire him, how can we criticize him?

  76. catholicmidwest says:

    “proof that we could indeed put the wheels on a tricycle and more”

    If you say so, Luke, but I’ve been Catholic for >25 years and I haven’t seen evidence of it.

    I do, however, believe what you said here: “The Holy Spirit has kept us afloat even when we would have sunk ourselves by choice.” 100% correct. I truly believe that it’s one of the biggest miracles of all time that the Church still exists because it staggers on like nothing I’ve ever seen and is full of abject incompetence. It is just incredible to watch. It must be the work of the Holy Spirit that keeps the church going because it’s certainly not any of us.

  77. catholicmidwest says:

    Specifically, precisely now….did Fr. Amorth say anything that hasn’t been said before?

  78. Luke says:

    My remark about Father Amorth not saying anything new regarded the fact that evil has crept into the Church. We knew that, of course. But we did not conceive of organized diabolical sects.

    I may be simplifying things here, catholicmidwest, but when twelve men are sent out to spread the Faith and years later we have different Rites because of the lack of communication between those men but with staggeringly similar rubrics, God has worked a miracle that will continue until Judgement Day. Our incompetence is simply an effect of the Fall. We could never be a well-oiled machine because we are fallen.

    I disagree that we need to be vigilant by way of prayer for particular people. The more we are concerned about holiness and strive for it by making good choices the more we build up the Church by a mystery of God. As Archbishop Sheen once said, dead bodies float downstream. We need live bodies who will draw others upstream with them. When someone supports a private revelation in a public way, as a public figure, which the CHurch has not approved, that persons credibility becomes questionable. At least. Father Fortea was wise to say that we cannot make such allegations based either on the statements of the diabolical or based on the revelatory statements of lay people.

    We’re not saying, or at least I am not saying, that Father Amorth has not battled admirably with the devil. The fact remains that his statements are likely unfounded. Based both on Father Forteas defense of the clergy accused and on the decsion on Father Amorth’s part to imbibe the Bosnia-Herzegovina anomaly. It is an anomaly, but it is not something that we can be certain of in such a way as to put a “stamp” on it. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema” Galatians 1:8. Our Tradition has been passed on to us as it was received from Christ. Anything else must be compared to such words and even then comes in a distant second place and never becomes necessary for our salvation.

  79. Supertradmom says:

    What private revelation? I have heard people in college cafeterias openly talking about Satanic Masses and diabolical sects. These things are not necessarily hidden by those involved, especially if those persons feel protected by their status. I grew up and lived in one of the most glaringly homosexual cultures in the Catholic Church, a diocese which had to declare bankruptcy because of sexual scandals. Such sin is just another type of serious sin, like satanic worship. Father Amorth is doing us a favor by reminding us that “there but the grace of God go I”.

  80. catholicmidwest says:

    I don’t want be in any kind of dispute or anything, Luke. I was just amused by something Ben said–it struck a chord with me. That’s all.

  81. Luke says:

    But he’s not only reminding us that “there but for the grace of God go I.” He’s publicly stating that Priests, Monsignors, and Cardinals are members of Satanic sects.

  82. Luke says:

    Nor do I, catholicmidwest. I am amazed both by the miracle of who we are 2000 (or 4 depending on how you view it) years later and by how uncanny it is. But then what do I know about miracles?

  83. Supertradmom says:

    Yes, and Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, etc. spoke against the evils of the kings and queens of Israel and Judah, God’s Chosen People, practicing pagan cults, which included child sacrifice. The prophets of God are supposed to point out and warn all of sin. I am sure that Father Amorth knows of what he speaks…

  84. Supertradmom says:

    Should we not pray for all those men in high places in the Church who may have been tempted to leave the Truth, so that they may be saved from eternal death? Did not Our Lady at Fatima say that some of the clergy would apostatize?

  85. Luke says:

    There is the line that separates us, Supertradmom. I believe so strongly that private revelation is unnecessary that I don’t give credence to any private revelation. Nor does my Faith require it of me. Christ is the pathway to God. Even the devil himself could gather that clergy would leave or deny Christ in some way. It’s not a secret that we’re wired to self-destruct. As you said earlier, there but for the grace of God go I. It’s very true. How does any private revelation change our calling as Christians? It doesn’t. “Our Lady of Medjugorje” says we should fast. We knew that. We need to have a strong devotion to the Real Presence. We knew that. Our faith is built on Scripture and Tradition, but we don’t have to look very far past Scripture to find our road map. We do our best to imitate the virtues of Jesus. We pray and practice God’s presence as Christ did. One road map is enough for me. If you are concerned about your holiness you will become (as St. Teresa of Avila puts it) the captain of many souls. Of course we should pray for others, but our personal holiness is what leads others to God.

    As Desertfalcon put it [Father Amorth] “is engaging in something that borders on calumny” by making improperly founded accusations.

  86. I have read and reviewed books by Amorth and Fortea. Fortea is, hands-down, the more sound. By far.

  87. pablo says:

    Fighting in the Exorcism Ritual is extremely difficult.

    It can cover many years, and is complex and oblique. Hand to hand combat at times.

    A Catholic interested in learning about the enemy to become more well prepared could read David St. Clare’s book, The Devil Rocked Her Cradle, based on the Exorcism in Erling, Iowa. He used Vatican Documents in writing this book.

    The Devil and his pals are not sissies. Personal Virtue and Holiness do not stop him.

    A humble and contrite heart surrounded by Charity is impossible for him to attack.

    Pray for the Holy Father and all Priests, even the fallen ones. Pray for Nuns, living and deceased.

    The first sin committed by the devil was that residing in an undue desire to be “like to God,” in that he sought as the ultimate goal of his happiness something to which he could attain by his own natural powers, without having recourse to God, nor wishing to wait, as did the holy angels, for his final perfection through divine grace. This final perfection he sought to reach through the resources of his own nature, not, indeed, independently of God, Who gave to the angelic nature the ability to act, but independently of God Who confers grace (De Malo, 16,3).

    *

  88. Supertradmom says:

    Thank you, pablo. St. Therese, the Little Flower spoke of Satan visiting her in her last days, in order to put doubt and fear into her heart regarding God’s love for her. She asked that holy water be sprinkled on her bed and that the nuns would pray for her. I think the visitation of evil happened twice before she was left alone to die in the peace and love of Christ.

    There are so many saints who have fought the devil, that I am not surprised if the evil one has convinced some to follow him instead of Christ. The long version of the St. Michael prayer is a very good prayer against demons. It was written by Pope St. Leo XIII and is called “Prayer Against Satan and The Rebellious Angels”. One of the phrases in it is “Most cunning serpent, you shall no more dare to deceive the human race, persecute the Church, torment God’s elect and sift them as wheat.” Another part of the prayer reads, “stop deceiving human creatures and pouting out to them th epoison of eternal damnation;stop harming the church and hindering her liberty.”

    Was not Christ Himself tempted three times at least that we know of in the Gospel? Father Amorth, as one of the main exorcists in Rome for many years cannot be denied either his authority or his knowledge. As to demons lying, in an exorcism, as I have heard from an exorcist in our diocese, the demons also speak the Truth, as they can be commanded to do so for the good of those present. I am sure both priests are good men and have different experiences as well as similar ones. As to private revelation, again, it seems that the sources referred to by Father Fortea may or may not be the “whole story”. And, again, in my home diocese, I cannot but help see the connection with years of sexual abuse by priests and the number of priests in that diocese who still do not believe in Hell or the devil, or even damnation. There is a connection, surely. I think the two priests in question here are probably more alike in their opinions than not.

  89. catholicmidwest says:

    Luke you said, “But he’s not only reminding us that “there but for the grace of God go I.” He’s publicly stating that Priests, Monsignors, and Cardinals are members of Satanic sects.”

    And you don’t think that could possibly happen, or what?

  90. robtbrown says:

    Ben Fischer,

    Ever hear of Alger Hiss? He was a Communist who became a high State Dept official. Or Kim Philby, Donald McClean, and Guy Burgess? How about Robert Hanssen?

    It is well known in Rome that a Soviet plant became a seminarian at the Russicum (Russian Catholic), then turned over to the KGB names of the young priests, whose throats were slit after they entered the Soviet Union as undercover priests. There was also Fr. Eugen Brammertz, a German Benedictine who spied for the Stasi. This was confirmed by Markus Wolf.

    The method has usually not been planting moles in the organization (incl the Vatican) but rather recruiting someone who is already well placed. The psyche of the traitor is a theme often explored in the novels of John Le Carre.

  91. penance2 says:

    To much Hubbub about Beelzebub…it is his job to hex and vex, it is our job to stay and pray. Through the centuries, through the Popes, through all time, until the time Our Lord and Savior gathers us into His home. But for now the battle rages, it should be expected and anticipated remembering Providence allows All for the Glory and honor of God, and for our benefit… crucifixion comes before resurrection we are His body, His mystical body we will be attacked but we will prevail. Trust in God and all will be well none of the good guys wind up in hell.

  92. I actually think the possibility of organized communist infiltration of the Church is far more plausible than organized satanic cults infiltrating the Church.

    Is there a sense in which Communism isn’t satanic? You can be working for the Other Side even if you don’t acknowledge that the Other Side exists.

  93. Luke says:

    Yes. He may or may not be right. But then if he is not certain (which it seems that he cannot be), why make allegations?

    CCC states that the practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony.” 1824 calls charity fruit of the Spirit and fullness of the Law, charity keeps the commandments of God and his Christ. St. John says in his first letter that we know God if we keep his commandments. I propose that holiness is bound up in contrition and charity.

    We’re not taking Father Amorth’s personal gains over evil away.

    Supertradmom, I also believe there is a connection between personal sin and a denial of punishment. Which of us would want to Acknowledge consequences when we were hardened in sin? Nobody is denying that Christ or any other person was tempted. But temptation is not tantamount to belonging to a satanic sect. Those are heavy accusations. Father Amorth could have answered that interview question by saying that evil can be found everywhere but he is not certain of any particular persons involved in evil. The idea begins to reek of scandal more and more. It’s just not fruitful even though possible. But if possible and not certain, why publish it?

  94. Supertradmom says:

    May I add that where there is great holiness, there is great evil attempting to break that holiness. We have had a string of wonderful popes. We have also had the most liberal and heretical teaching in some dioceses across the world. Why are we surprised at such a statement? We are the Church, and the Church will survive because of the Holy Spirit and a “few good men”. If we can have a famous cardinal in the United States being openly pro-homosexual, why can there not be cardinals who have sadly gone off into satanic worship? As to giving offense, I am on the side of John the Baptist, who gave great offense to the ruling king and his brother’s wife-a bit more obvious, but part of the prophetic mission of the Church none the less. Amorth is a teacher as well as the former head exorcist. Fortea was his pupil.

    Why are we afraid to hear such things? There is truth on both sides of this story, but that some cardinals or priests have failed to keep the faith and do horrid things is not news-de Chardin, Curran, Schillebeeckx Luther, Aglipay, Aristide, Thomas Cramner, the list is endless. .

  95. Steve K. says:

    robtbrown – good point on highly placed traitors and infiltrations. As Kim Philby said (or was it one of the other Cambridge 5?), “you have to belong before you can betray.”

    Where I work we have to take annual counter-espionage training. We were given a document that contained psychiatric profiles of some of the major traitors to the US in the past several decades – the Walkers, Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen, etc. Fascinating but depressing stuff. I remember thinking while reading it – this would be a rich vein for a theologist or for a priest for a series of homilies. It was a real study in capital sin and how it spreads and destroys sinners.

    Hanssen btw is a Catholic, and swung between being faithful and being consumed in his sins, not only betrayal obviously but also he had a deep addiction to pornography. He is a real tormented and divided soul. Pray for him.

  96. Steve K. says:

    (ahem – theologist, I mean theologian. LOL – I am up way past my bed time)

  97. As soon as I read this yesterday, I couldn’t see the prudence in making such a statement. What value does it serve, if not to make people suspicious of certain prelates?

    If someone disagrees with something a particular Cardinal says or does, might they dismiss it on the basis that they think the prelate is doing the devil’s work?

    I don’t think it is helpful, at all.

  98. albizzi says:

    Paul VI said once that “through some cracks the smoke of Satan entered the Temple of God”

    Until now I never heard any of his successors saying that this smoke was successfully forced out of the Church.
    In my opinion the smoke has thickened, darkened and stinks more than ever.

  99. robtbrown says:

    Where I work we have to take annual counter-espionage training. We were given a document that contained psychiatric profiles of some of the major traitors to the US in the past several decades – the Walkers, Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen, etc. Fascinating but depressing stuff. I remember thinking while reading it – this would be a rich vein for a theologist or for a priest for a series of homilies. It was a real study in capital sin and how it spreads and destroys sinners.

    What personality trait would you say they all had in common?

    Hanssen btw is a Catholic, and swung between being faithful and being consumed in his sins, not only betrayal obviously but also he had a deep addiction to pornography. He is a real tormented and divided soul. Pray for him.
    Comment by Steve K.

    Hanssen was a Lutheran who converted because of his wife. He not only betrayed his country but also his family.

  100. robtbrown says:

    Also: Not to defend pornography, but there are probably a lot of people who spend time with it who don’t betray their country and their families.

  101. JonM says:

    @ Annita Moore,

    Having studied Russia formally in school and personally on my time, the rise of Lenin and the communists indicate clearly that the devil was intimately involved. The terror, the mass murder, the overthrow of a lawful government (and its brutal execution)… all of the manifestly evil acts the Soviet Union engaged in.

    I think it is impossible to seperate communism from the Enemy. In fact, if we look at left-wing youth today, invariably hate is the edifying glue: hate of government, hate of God, hate of self-sacrificing love for family and king.

    Of course the tragic collapse of the Romanov family could have been avoided if Western troops did more than just sit around in Archangel. By this time, Western leaders had given themselves over to Mammon and acted by and large only to boost temporal riches.

    Freemasonry is kind of like a horde out of Mordor; it is shocking to see what American government Freemasons did to Mexico in attempting to smite out the Faith. They are there at every revolution and destruction of mononarchy: America 1775, France 1789, Europe 1848, Germany & Italy Late 19th century, Mexico ~1820-.

    After World War I, there was a move to reinstate Catholicism as the official state Church in Austria. This was prevented by Hitler and his assassination teams.

    WHOA, rabbit hole there…

    Yes, Vatican and satanic influence. I don’t know how prudent it was to publicize this information in this manner; with that said it would not surprise me. Satan will dispatch his demons to attack the seat of what is good. Sadly, we see a number of priests who refuse to teach on hell or teach that hell does not exist (a sort of universalist mantra.)

    As for actual possession of Cardinals, all I can say is that we should be in deep prayer and self-examination. The modern era is not a high tide of piousness, I think that is clear, and all sorts of horrible things are happening even in churches. A time for prayer, pennance, and preparation. For all of us.

    @ Robtbrown

    I think that pornography is like a gaping hole for evil to pass through. Of course it is at the very least lust and adultery (for married) but it involves much more. It’s viewing humans as objects of base pleasure. This is intensely distructive and part of what I call the ‘inverted trinity:’ abortion, contraception and pornography.

    Those addicted might not betray their nation, but they are yoked to evil in some manner.

    As for Hanssen, I think it is wrong to say he converted for his wife (i.e., he didn’t really believe but just did so out of selfish worldliness.) I can think of some policians who recently converted and are conspicuous in their immediate rejection of core Catholic principles. Even so, we have to be really careful about judging subjective intentions.

  102. JonFrum says:

    If the Salem Witch trials are good for anything they are an object lesson that the one thing the Enemy can do well is play “rope-a-dope.”

    That being said, a really creepy description of the infiltration of the Church can be found in the forward to “Hostage to the Devil” by Malachi Martin. Make of it what you will but it has details of the abuse scandal years before it broke.

    I do not think it healthy to dwell on these things too much but I think it is deadly to ignore it altogether. The Screwtape Letters should be mandatory reading for all Catholics.