US Catholic, Bp. Trautman renew attack on new translation

UPDATE: 19 June 1703 GMT:

Remember New Math?

3.  I don’t really pay enough attention at Mass to notice how good or bad the translations are.
Agree  1%
Disagree  96%   
Other  9%

__________

ORIGINAL POST
__________

Erie’s Bishop, His Excellency Most Rev. Donald W. Trautman, that inveterate champ of inclusive language and enemy of the Holy See’s norms for liturgical translation, continues his campaign against the revision of the translation of the Roman Missal abetted by US Catholic.

The piece in US Catholic, offered online on 16 June, is recycled.  I looked at it already here.   US Catholic was conducting a poll about the new translation, with Bp. Trautman’s piece as a preface – probably to condition the voters toward a certain kind of response.

I will look again at the first part of the recycled Trautman piece, and then cut away to the poll results US Catholic produced.

My emphases and comments.


Lost in translation [I wonder how many times by now that has been used.]
Wednesday, June 16, 2010
By Meghan Murphy-Gill

Bishop Donald Trautman

Why the new Mass prayers may be confusing. [By which he is suggesting that they are. ]

I was leading a group discussion on the merits of the renewed liturgy of Vatican II [Where do you suppose he was leading them?] when John, a middle-aged businessman, commented, “I can’t imagine my life without the liturgy; it strengthens me each week—but I never understood the Mass until we had it in English.”  [I think it is an amazing thing to be able to "understand" Mass, given that it is a great mystery.]

Some in the group said the liturgy was why they became Catholic; others said the liturgy was why they stayed in the church. All of these individuals had experienced the power of the liturgy to transform lives. That liturgy is about to undergo a face-lift [Hmmm… a good image?] with a new translation of the texts for the Mass.

What prompts this new translation? In 2000 Pope John Paul II authorized a new edition of the Roman Missal, the book that contains the texts of the Mass. The new translation of it is slated to be ready for use next year.

In 2001 the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments issued new principles and directives for translating from the original Latin into the vernacular in a document called Liturgiam authenticam. Following these new norms, the translation of the new Missal has intentionally employed a “sacred language,” [This has been a real problem for Bp. Trautman, who has implacably asserted that sacred liturgy should not have sacred language.  Rather, it should be every day and immediately apparent to all present.  Since he works from a premise that average people in the pews can’t understand very much, the language bar has to be set pretty low.] which tends to be remote from everyday speech and frequently not understandable. For example, the Preface, or opening of the Eucharistic Prayer, of the Assumption says of Mary’s delivery of Jesus: “She brought forth ineffably your incarnate Son.”  [HUZZAH!  Had His Excellency not at some point used the word "ineffable" in some form, I would have had to add it myself.  "Ineffable" is a major stumbling block for the good bishop.]

When the bishops at the Second Vatican Council made the historic decision that the liturgy of the church should be in the vernacular, [No, Your Excellency.  The Council made the decision that the liturgy was to remain in Latin.  (SC 36) Mass was to remain in Latin. The Fathers said that there were some circumstances in which the vernacular could be used, but that the liturgy was to remain in Latin.   Clerics and religious were to say their Office in Latin.  (SC 101)   Pastors of souls were to ensure that their flocks could sing and speak those parts pertaining to them in Latin.  (SC 54) Gregorian chant, which is in Latin, must have primacy. (SC 116)] there was no mention of sacred language or vocabulary. [This is risible.  If someone had suggested to the Fathers of the Council that non-sacral, banal, an everyday style of language should be used in the sacred liturgy, they would have been laughed out of the Basilica.] The council’s intent was pastoral[Though we don’t know what that means, exactly.] to have the liturgy of the church prayed in living languages. [Bp. Trautman repeats this often and forcefully every time he addresses this question. The Council’s intent was that the language of liturgy remain in Latin Can H.E. produce a citiation from the Counci’s documents to the contrary?  Some text that contradicts the clear requirement of the Council Fathers in SC 36?] Translated liturgical texts should be reverent, noble, inspiring, and uplifting, but that does not mean archaic, remote, or incomprehensible.  While the translated texts of the new Missal must be accurate and faithful to the Latin original, they must also be intelligible, proclaimable, and grammatically correct. Regrettably the new translation fails in this regard.  [What Bp. Trautman has done here is set up a false dichtomoy, a fictitious contradiction between "sacred" and "pastoral".  On his planet, the "sacred style" derived from the norms of Liturgiam authenticam is opposed to "pastoral".]

Did Jesus ever speak to the people of his day in words beyond their comprehension? Did Jesus ever use terms or expressions beyond his hearer’s understanding? [ALL THE TIME!  He had to go back constantly and explain things!]  Jesus did explain the parable of the sower privately to his disciples in Mark (4:10-12) and Luke (8:9-10). In John 6 many of Jesus’ disciples found his Bread of Life discourse hard to accept. In these instances it is the message—not its vocabulary—that required further explanation. [His Excellency is merely recycling now.  We have examined this less than worthy argument before. ]

[…]

[At the very end of his piece, Bp. Trautman offered this, which in fairness must be included.]

With the recent approval of the text of the new Missal, the real task begins. It will then be incumbent on bishops and pastors of the church, along with others in liturgical and educational ministries, to catechize and convince the people that the new Missal is an improvement on the current one.

[But then he adds….]

Is that completely true?

And the survey says…

[A note on the survey results: There is at least one thing U.S. Catholic subscribers and uscatholic.org visitors agree on: They are concerned about liturgy. Fewer than 1 percent said they don’t care enough to have an opinion on the new translations. But their enthusiasm plays out in very different opinions on the language of the Mass.

Nearly 90 percent of subscribers [Note this distinction…. "subscribers".] said they prefer the Mass in an easy-to-understand translation of the Latin, but only 15 percent of more than 3,500 who responded to a quick poll on uscatholic.org feel the same way.

Why the difference? [NB:] The number of respondents to our monthly online quick polls usually spikes when various Latin Mass advocates link to them from their blogs — especially when we ask for opinions on the liturgy. Some of these Latin enthusiasts also took the whole survey, thereby skewing the results to be less reflective of our regular readers[Why are people who want Latin "enthusiasts"?  Why when they respond to an open poll do they "skew" a poll?]

[And since the results were not what the editors wanted…] For the print magazine, we chose to highlight only the responses of 477 U.S. Catholic subscribers. [ROFL!  People who subscribe to US Catholic are mostly liberals!] Those results are shown here, but we’ve also included the results of everyone who took the survey, both online and in print. [This should be interesting]]

Total results:

1. I think the new texts for the Mass will be:
A regrettable change and worse than the current texts.  40%
A welcome improvement over the current texts.  52% [majority]
Not much better or worse than the current texts.  3%
Nothing I care too much about.  1%
Other  4%

2. I think the new translations are part of an attempt to roll back the liturgical reforms of Vatican II.
Agree  54%   
Disagree  34%
Other  9%

3.  I don’t really pay enough attention at Mass to notice how good or bad the translations are.
Agree  1%
Disagree  96%   
Other  9%
[106%!]

4.  I would prefer that the Mass be prayed:
In a translation that is in natural, easy-to-understand English.  55% [What a surprise!]
In a translation that is as literal as possible.  14%
In Latin.  24%
Other 7%

5. More elevated language will help restore a much-needed sense of mystery to the Mass.
Agree  43%
Disagree  51%
Other  6%

6.  I worry that young people and those considering joining the church will be turned off by a liturgy that sounds esoteric or out of touch to their ears.
Agree  52%  [Again, I am shocked!]
Disagree  42%
Other  6%

U.S. Catholic Subscribers only:

1. I think the new texts for the Mass will be:
A regrettable change and worse than the current texts.  81%  [ROFL!]
A welcome improvement over the current texts.  7%
Not much better or worse than the current texts.  6%
Nothing I care too much about.  1%
Other  5%

2. I think the new translations are part of an attempt to roll back the liturgical reforms of Vatican II.
Agree  81%   [ROFLOL!]
Disagree  14%
Other  5%

3.  I don’t really pay enough attention at Mass to notice how good or bad the translations are.
Agree  2%
Disagree  95%   
Other  3%

4.    I would prefer that the Mass be prayed:
In a translation that is in natural, easy-to-understand English.  89% [Hoot!]
In a translation that is as literal as possible.  4%
In Latin.  3%
Other  4%

5. More elevated language will help restore a much-needed sense of mystery to the Mass.
Agree  10%
Disagree  81%   [They are nothing, if not consistent.]
Other  9%

6.  I worry that young people and those considering joining the church will be turned off by a liturgy that sounds esoteric or out of touch to their ears.
Agree  82%   [Disaster looms.]
Disagree  10%
Other  8%

FacebookEmailPinterestGoogle GmailShare/Bookmark

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Biased Media Coverage, Linking Back, SESSIUNCULA, Throwing a Nutty and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

58 Responses to US Catholic, Bp. Trautman renew attack on new translation

  1. Jack Hughes says:

    Pray for the Bishop

  2. Carolina Geo says:

    2. I think the new translations are part of an attempt to roll back the liturgical reforms of Vatican II.
    Agree 54%
    Disagree 34%
    Other 9%

    3. I don’t really pay enough attention at Mass to notice how good or bad the translations are.
    Agree 1%
    Disagree 96%
    Other 9%

    Am I the only one wondering why these numbers don’t add up to 100%?

  3. Alice says:

    No, Carolina, I was wondering the same thing.

  4. Elly says:

    I wonder why he put sacred language in quotes.

  5. Philangelus says:

    {The number of respondents to our monthly online quick polls usually spikes when various Latin Mass advocates link to them from their blogs — especially when we ask for opinions on the liturgy.}

    Their demurral makes no sense. Latin Mass advocates aren’t in possession of a different internet than the fine folk who read US Catholic. If those individuals have blogs, aren’t they too welcome to link to any survey the magazine posts?

    One would think that if Catholic Americans overwhelmingly felt the same way their subscribers did, that this would result in far more non-Latin-Mass advocates promoting the surveys on their weblogs and attracting like-minded voters.

    The only conclusions we’re left to reach is that there’s either a vast underground network of Latin Mass advocates who loathe the common man and regular spoken English, or else Catholics who enjoy non-ineffable language don’t know how to post links where others can find them.

  6. Agnes says:

    And the percentage of WDTPRSers who care about + Trautman’s opinion on this anymore?

    Ineffable blah. The blah can hardly be contained!

  7. Toronto_Sacristan says:

    He really needs to move onto other issues…lets move onto the translation of the new breviary…

    Any one who campares the texts will agree the translation is more faithful to the latin text and superior to the rubbish we have been forced to hear over the years. Hi fighting a battle that is already over and he lost.

    He needs to stop treating the faithful like we can’t speak or understand english! LOL…some of us even speak other languages!

  8. irishgirl says:

    When is Trautman going to get it through his thick skull that HE LOST?

    The man is absolutely clueless….

    Love reading all your comments, Father Z! You put some real zingers in there!

  9. Leonius says:

    Why is no action been taken against these schismatics, refusing to call them so doesn’t prevent schism it just hides it which allows it to spread.

  10. HighMass says:

    With all this about the new translation, a question or two….
    Where were this folks when the rupture occured after the council???
    Most likely in the drivers seat I assume…..

    Wow with these changes that have been 10yrs in the making (correct if I am wrong) how do they think WE felt when the Mass went from the
    TLM to the N.O.???

    Funny when the shoe is on the other foot!

    God Bless them, as we need to pray for them and pray harder for the reform of the reform and Our Dear Holy Father!

  11. AnAmericanMother says:

    I was surprised to find our rector not too keen on the new translation.

    His complaint was that it contains incomplete sentences.

    I will go read it carefully and return to the fray (but a highly circumspect and dignified fray. He da boss.)

  12. Andy F. says:

    One ineffable word comes to mind here: disunity.

  13. Midwest St. Michael says:

    Dear Lord, have mercy.

    I saw this earlier on the Acts of the Apostacy blog. I wondered, “How long will it take for Fr. Z to answer His Excellency this time?” Not long!

    It boggles the mind how this man will not let this go. We have to honestly ask – is Bp. Trautman *really* fostering a sense of *unity* with his unending diatribes against – *against* – Holy Mother Church’s clear decision on this? What his his ultimate goal, then? Is it merely to “agitate” the dear subscribers of US(pseudo)Catholic? Okay, if so, then what? What does he hope to gain by this unending whining?

    I mean, seriously, can anybody give a cogent explanation besides the obligatory, “Well, he is a *Spirit of Vatican II* bishop” (or) “Well, he went to semninary at *Innsbruck, Austria* (you know, *Karl Rahner-ites* and all-of-that)” why this man is – it seems to me – acting like a spoiled 4 year old who did not get his way?

  14. Midwest St. Michael says:

    (Exactly, Andy! Your post was up before mine appeared above. *Disunity* is what this man is fostering.)

  15. brassplayer says:

    >Am I the only one wondering why these numbers don’t add up to 100%?

    Rounding errors. It’s fairly typical when working with percentages.

  16. TNCath says:

    Is there a sheriff at the Vatican? If so, could he please come over here, arrest Bishop Trautman and put him in the Vatican jail. Where did this man obtain his version of reality?

  17. Andrew says:

    Brassplayer:

    Cannot be rounding errors. 1 + 96 + 9 = 106

    Even if I rounded all three numbers down by 1 it woudn’t be 100% (it would still be 103%).

    As an accountant by profession, I can assure you that any presentation of data where the percentages in total don’t add up to 100 percent would be rejected as utterly unprofessional and unreliable. (not to mention the accountant’s job).

  18. TMKent says:

    Bishop Trautman!!! – I’ve long wondered just what is wrong with the Erie Diocese. When I was an infant there our pastor, destroyed the high altar of our historic church and painted over the beautifully decorated interior telling us Vatican II said so. When I was in first grade I witnessed my parochial school teacher, a young nun, plant a lip-lock on a young priest to thank him for his performance as a snowman in our Christmas play. A couple years later they were married and running a hippie store in town. When I was in the school show in 6th grade we all (boys included) sang “I am Woman” to the direction of our mini-skirt clad Sisters who told us women would be priests by the time we grew up. In High School I saw openly gay priests have relationships with male students including a relative and a former boyfriend. I also saw straight priests leave to marry after they’d “put in enough years”. I was recruited by the sisters in Erie and taken to tour their motherhouse and participate in a Peace liturgy complete with liturgical dance and little origami birds in memory of the victims of the atomic bombs. I have no memory of the Eucharist that day.
    It took me years to see through the lies and misconceptions spread by the religious of the Erie Diocese. As a student of my faith I came to understand the great selfishness that represented their attempts to shape the future of the church in their image and the great harm done to students then and now who were taught without exception that their’s was the only way. I am so glad I was able to raise my children far from that place.

  19. JohnE says:

    Fr. Z, I found your last comment (“Disaster looms”) amusing in light of the next unrelated(?) item in my Google Reader list: “Disaster Recovery and Business Continuity”. Pretty much a concise summary of what’s going on here — a recovery from the disastrous liturgical “reforms” done in the “spirit of Vatican II” in order to follow the hermeneutic of continuity.

  20. pseudomodo says:

    Sacred language is the most common language for the modern man. We use it all the time.

    It is used in literally every culture especially our own modern english language.

    Examples of sacred language phases:

    Lawyer: “We pray, my Lord Magistrate that you issue a writ of Habeus Corpus.” Translation: “Set the poor lad free.”

    Police spokesman: “At that time two persons of interest, who are known to the police, recieved several rounds from a fiream into the vehicle they were riding in”. Translation: “Some perps got thier car shot up.”

    Julia Child: “Today we will make boeff bourguingon avec pommes de terre.” Translation: “Are you up for beef with gravy and potatoes?”

  21. Okay, maybe this is too late, too little…but what in the heck does His Excellency Trautman want?
    I mean, really?
    Can someone answer this

  22. I mean to continue…
    I taught jr. high and high school students for several years…this attitude (I’m sorry here) is typical…all kinds of complaints, negativity, correction, etc…but nothing substantial to get at…thus, forge ahead and “forgetta about it”!!

  23. Henry Edwards says:

    AnAmericanMother,

    I believe in one God,
    the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things visible and invisible.
    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the Only Begotten Son of God,
    born of the Father before all ages.

    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
    through him all things were made.
    ……

    I infer from a recent report that in the final version of the Credo, the italicized incomplete sentence (and other similar ones) may be completed by replacing “And” by “I believe”. I hope this is not so, because the incomplete-sentence version seems more literate to me. If indeed in the final Credo we say “I believe” five times, will this begin to grate before long? What do you think?

    PS. I wonder whether you could you provide a discrete hint as to which Atlanta parish you attend? One that might be meaningful only to someone (like me) who’s spent many years in the Archdiocese of Atlanta, and still returns occasionally to lurk around. You can find my e-mail address somewhere at www dot knoxlatinmass dot net.

  24. A. J. D. S. says:

    I think the lesson to be learned, and one that the folks over at U.S. Catholic are resisting, is that polls don’t “show” anything. What’s the point of confirming what you already know about your own constituency?

  25. Sedgwick says:

    Here is the final paragraph of The Imitation of Christ:

    The eternal and incomprehensible God effects great things in heaven and on earth by His infinite power, impossible for us to discover. If God’s words could be understood easily by human reason, they would not be considered wonderful and beyond human expression.

  26. Ha! I am one of those “Latin enthusiasts,” who stumbled across the poll from another blog and took the entire survey, adding my comments to almost every question.

  27. ocsousn says:

    There is no correlation between intelligence or levels of education and one’s ability to grasp specialized vocabulary. Anyone who has served in the military can tell you that. Indeed, enlisted Marines and Sailors, a group not known for their high level of book learning, delight in having the most archaic and obscure vocabulary of them all. All groups have their own esoteric language eagerly embraced by their adherents: sports, law, medicine, fraternal organizations, pop culture fans and religions. This is a self-evident aspect of our human nature. We clothe in mystery what is most dear us.
    Fr. Aidan Logan, OCso

  28. Blissmeister86 says:

    I actually think the “total” results are a much better reflection of the reality of popular sentiment in the Catholic world regarding the liturgy. Given the theological slant of the magazine, the vast majority of their subscribers are likely of the “Spirit of Vatican II” mindset, and so I think that that sample is hardly representative of the views of practicing Catholics in the United States.

  29. Blissmeister86 says:

    Also, why didn’t they show the age and demographic breakdown? Because young people in their 20s and thirties who responded are more “reactionary” than they anticipated?

  30. It will then be incumbent on bishops and pastors of the church, along with others in liturgical and educational ministries, to catechize and convince the people that the new Missal is an improvement on the current one.

    I don’t need convincing.

  31. TJerome says:

    Trautman is an old reactionary. He should give it a rest. The 1960s are over and so is he!

  32. dans0622 says:

    By the way, the “quick poll” had these results, as of this moment:

    I would prefer that the Mass be prayed:

    In Latin.
    57% (1996 votes)
    In a translation of the Latin that is as literal as possible.
    28% (1004 votes)
    In a translation that is in natural, easy-to-understand English.
    15% (524 votes)
    Total votes: 3524

    Unless I missed it, these results weren’t included, graphically.

    Dan

  33. Will we see the actual “schism” within the Western Church over these “english translations”?
    If H. E. Trautman has a say, maybe so.
    Don’t want to sound reactionary, here…but his words are “war drums” as far as I can tell.
    I’m just a dumb monastic…I could be wrong here…hope not!

  34. albinus1 says:

    I wonder what language Bp. Trautman thinks Jesus prayed in? As an observant Jew, Jesus presumably prayed in Hebrew — which, in the first century AD, was a non-vernacular liturgical/sacred language that no one spoke on a daily basis; the vernacular language was Aramaic (which, to be fair, survives in a few Jewish prayers, such as the Kaddish).

  35. Supertradmum says:

    Sophomoric : conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature
    2 : of, relating to, or characteristic of a sophomore poll and worse newsrag.

  36. Maltese says:

    …but I never understood the Mass until we had it in English. [I think it is an amazing thing to be able to “understand” Mass, given that it is a great mystery.] Very true, Father, and somehow the great Saints were mysteriously formed in the TLM, even though it was not in their mother tongue.

    “The nature of the Mass is so profoundly mysterious that the most acute and holy men are continually discovering further nuances of significance. It is not a peculiarity of the Roman Church that much which happens at the altar is in varying degrees obscure to most of the worshipers. It is in fact the mark of all the historic, apostolic Churches. I think it highly doubtful whether the average churchgoer either needs or desires to have complete intellectual, verbal comprehension of all that is said. He has come to worship.”–Evelyn Waugh

  37. Mrs. O says:

    Would it be disrespectful to say, Just shut up and do it!
    I think they were peeved by your linking to their polls…..I find it funny.

  38. The Cobbler says:

    Re. “sentence fragments”:

    So, instead of using references to previous sentences (which is in principle wrong _why_, exactly?), we should either be repetitious beyond belief or simply refuse to speak complex thoughts? This is why I, one of those people who insist on speaking correctly and consistently (with regard to linguistic patterns, that is; you can be whatever consistency you want with regard to style) and accurately articulating one’s thoughts, cannot stand grammarians. “The rules” are little more than bunk when it comes to actually articulating real thoughts both coherently and correctly.

    Of course, willingness to consider grammar-followers linguistically deficient has gotten me my share of troubles and bad fights. I rest easier with the largely experience-based knowledge that most of the greatest authors — at least in English, but I hear tell in many another language also — don’t give twopence about the standards (of grammar or style) said languages’ grammar teachers want to impose anyway.

  39. Warren says:

    Loose play with the truth is often the rope with which a man will hang himself. +Trautman’s loose play with stats, language and use of faulty reason are important cues indicating a need for early retirement.

    H.E.’s malice has been confirmed by a consistent pattern of behaviour. For example, one only need recall his bullying tactics, hubris and less than civil tone (e.g., especially toward +Serratelli) at the Fall General Assembly (2009). +Trautman’s actions repeatedly place him in the same camp as Kung, et al. Good minds are so often tragically wasted because the folk possessing a degree of smarts do not practice even an ounce of humility. They appear to get enamoured in their intellectual prowess and cannot admit that they are capable of error.

    It cannot be easy for +Trautman to hear the torrent of criticism coming from people who really do love the Church. However, he has brought a great deal of that hard criticism upon himself by promoting an agenda of opposition. He should take more time to realize one simple fact: he, by himself, does not represent the mind of the Church. That same Church is telling him to get with the program. Or, as Mrs. O put it – “Just shut up and do it!”

  40. TedTylerEzro says:

    I find it hilarious when older progressives complain about young people not being able to learn technical terms and jargon based around the faith. Don’t they realize just how many terms are required in modern science? In using computers and electronics? In participating in global culture and global economics?

    Then they think the words ineffable and consubstantiation are going to confuse young people? Give me a break.

  41. Antioch_2013 says:

    I live in New England, a bastion of liberalism if there ever was one, and while I am not Roman Catholic I have many Roman Catholic friends, family members, and acquaintances as well as being a regular visitor to St. John’s R.C. Seminary in Brighton, and I must say that the overwhelming response amongst all of these people is that they desire a restoration of the sacred in the liturgy. They wish that Roman Catholics would embrace their Catholic heritage, the mystery and “sacredness” that was once so essential to the liturgy.

    I recently spoke to a group of people, all older “babyboomers,” and was surprised to find that all of them missed the Latin Mass. Every, single one of them. One of them commented concerning language, “I don’t understand what the fuss was all about, everyone understood what was going on and what they were saying.” I directed them all to the local EF celebration at a parish nearby.

    My fellow seminarians and I were discussing the issue of the Roman liturgy, and we came to the conclusion that if the Roman Church were to return either to the ancient liturgy, or restore the elements of mystery and reverence lacking in the Novus Ordo, then this would greatly improve relations between the Churches and make us Orthodox much more willing to engage in true dialogue. It doesn’t help matters to have puppets at Mass and dancing deacons. The Roman Church must reclaim Her heritage, otherwise I don’t see how our two Churches can be united once again.

  42. One of those TNCs says:

    Did no one notice the weirdness of question #3? Not the first part – which undoubtedly resulted in a knee-jerk answer of “of course I pay attention at Mass!!” – but the second part: “…to notice how good or bad the translations are.” How can anyone except that small percentage of Catholics familiar with the Latin know how the language had been translated? This question should have been thrown out, since it really asks two questions, both of which have to be answered in either the negative or the affirmative to receive a vote. It was designed first to elicit an emotional response (“How dare you suggest that I don’t pay attention at Mass?!”) and second, to confuse one into thinking that he knows what the translations actually were. You can’t make that judgement if you don’t know what the Latin was in the first place.

  43. Pardon me for being so blunt, so nasty, so absolutely “in your face”…but is there not somewhere, somehow, in an ecclesiastical “form” to “shove a sock” in this “Excellency’s” mouth to forever shut him the hell up?
    I’m sorry; I probably will have “eons” of purgatory (or the eternal fires of hell…yikes!) I’ll be saying rosaries and making Holy Hours that I can at least get into purgatory!:<)!
    But will somebody, please, find a way to shut him the hell up?
    It’s getting annoying, to say the least…okay, Bishop T., you don’t like the new translations,
    WHO THE HELL CARES???
    That’s what I’d like to know…but I’ll just keep saying my Rosaries, making my times of Adoration and hope that I can be forgiven of the complete annoyance and intemperate anger caused by a damned bishop who doesn’t “get it”…according to Catholic teaching in the documents of Vatican II and the most illustrious teachings of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI.
    Does this man read anything???

  44. TonyLayne says:

    @nazareth priest: Father, I’m glad you got that off your chest, though I hope you’re not being treated for hypertension …? :^)=)

    @ocsousn: Maybe things have changed in the last thirty years, but when I enlisted, the Marines had the highest ASVAB requirement of the services except for the Air Force … a lot higher than you’d think a “mobile sandbag” would need. Maybe they’re not notable for book learning now because the surrounding culture is so insistent on dumbed-down educational standards, technological crutches and intellectually undemanding entertainment. However, your point is well taken.

    But to get back on topic: I’m afraid that the +Trautmans of the Church are a cross we’ll have to carry for a couple more decades while Church orthodoxy reasserts itself. The task of undoing the damage they’ve done over the last forty-five years is going to take at least two more generations, which will also have to struggle against the anti-religious push of the surrounding culture. God bless the new crop of priests coming up … they’ll need it!

  45. TNCath says:

    I certainly hope somebody brings this posting and comments to the attention of Bishop Trautman. He really needs someone to tell him just incredibly wrong he is. Honestly, I couldn’t sleep at night knowing I was this far off base from the Holy Father and the Universal Church and have a mitre and crozier in my closet.

  46. Byzcat says:

    I wonder how many of the subscribers to US Catholic have ever been to a Tridentine Mass. Maybe Bishop Trautman had trouble with Latin in school…

  47. lux_perpetua says:

    antioch,

    i could not agree with you more. I have been to Divine liturgies in the EO Church and was so uplifted by them it took my breath away. I also attended many a post-Vesper or post-Liturgy dinner where RC abuses, so regularly discussed here, were trotted out time and time again as examples of how we Romans had really flown the coop and did we really think our Sacraments were valid? It was at EO Liturgies that i heard the Creed [filioque notwithstanding] proclaimed in a way much closer to the new translation, etc.

    As someone who has dated an EO church member, experienced the Eucharist in both churches [obviously not literally in the EO church], seen miraculous weeping EO icons, and discussed EO-RC marriage [with the inevitable and heartbreaking conclusion that it is not possible when both parties are devout to their faiths], i truly believe that a restoration of Orthodoxy in the RC church can do more to restore amiability and reconciliation between the churches than any returns of icons, apologies for previous statements or historical events that happened 1500 years ago, etc, could ever do.

    please, all traditional Catholics, pray for unity within the churches.

  48. robtbrown says:

    Okay, maybe this is too late, too little…but what in the heck does His Excellency Trautman want?
    I mean, really?
    Can someone answer this?
    Comment by nazareth priest

    Sure. He wants it to be 1972.

  49. robtbrown says:

    Pray for the Bishop
    Comment by Jack Hughes

    To retire ASAP.

  50. I saw this piece, too, and I would point out that there seem to be two by-lines. As often and as deeply as I have disagreed with Bp Trautman over the years, I do not remember him ever baldy claiming that the Bishops of Vatican II “[M]ade the…decision that Mass should be in the vernacular.”

    I sincerely hope that he was not the author of that statement, and that he simply did not see the final draft before publication, for that statement is terribly misleading (the most charitable possible color I can find for it, after considering that most of the bishops who were Council Fathers also instituted the use of the vernacular).

    In any case, Bp Trautman and those of his ilk have lost.

    Let them sputter and wheeze.

    C.

  51. robtbrown says:

    In any case, Bp Trautman and those of his ilk have lost.
    Comment by Chris Altieri

    Not merely lost this battle. Most of his ilk don’t realize that they have lost the flock.

  52. robtbrown,

    The funny thing is, I do not really think they ever had the flock.

    Most of the folks I know who grew up in the 50’s and lived through the post-Conciliar period as young adults (meaning 17-25), and many of their parents, simply accepted the changes because Father told them that this is what the Council wanted. Some people said, “No, thankyouverymuch,” and left. Others stayed and suffered.

    The very few true believers made the most noise, to be sure, and these have done the greatest harm to the generations that have been born since the “reforms”.

    It has been my experience that young people (let’s say, from confirmation through grad school) who are or who become interested in and committed to the Faith, are generally interested in and committed to the Faith as understood by and within a hermeneutic of continuity.

    Se li guardiamo attraverso la lente della romanità, li vediamo per i meteori che sono.

    Bp Trautman and those of his ilk will appear as so many flashes in a pan, when seen through the lens of romanitas.

    C.

  53. PS

    I hope you capture the spirit of irony with which I wrote, “true believers”. It ought to have been in scare quotes.

    C.

  54. Perhaps I now capture YOUR irony, robtbrown!

    I only hope the losses are not eternal.

    C.

  55. wmeyer says:

    It seems to me that most of the folks in my parish who sing the praises of Vatican II reforms have failed to actually read the documents. Having not only read, but actually spent some hours studying, SC, I have yet to find in it any statement that the liturgy is to be translated to the vernacular. What I did find, in paragraphs 37-40, was language which seemed to support exceptional cases. Reading these in context, it seemed clear to me that the intent was to allow for adaptations in mission lands where there may be no cultural referents for Christian symbology. However, it has been a rather long time since the United States ceased to be a mission land.

    I did see clear and emphatic support for the primacy of Latin, and for chant to be given pride of place among liturgical music.

    And of course, I saw nothing there to suggest the epidemic of EMHC folk nor of alter girls.

    But perhaps there is a penumbra such as was found by the Supreme Court in support of the right to abortion…. Or not.

  56. I just happened upon the US Catholic page with this article. There is only one by-line there: Bp. Donald Trautman.

    C.

  57. TonyLane: Yes, in fact, I am now taking medicine for hypertension…good call!<)! (I can be SOOO bad!)…

  58. Jack Hughes says:

    Rotbrown

    I was thinking more along the lines of that he publicaly repent and starts undoing some of the damage he’s (presumably) done.