Long-time readers of WDTPRS may remember that we have on at least two other occasions looked at the musing of Fr. Pat Wissman, pastor of St. Catherine Mission in Bolivar, MO in the Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau. Fr. Wissman wrote some of the dumbest things I have ever read, as a matter of fact, which you can review here and here.
It seems Fr. Pat has moved beyond dumb to angry and hateful.
In his parish bulletin for this coming weekend, Pentecost, 23 May, we have this with my emphases and comments:
Dear Parishioners,
Happy Pentecost! The Easter Season comes to a final crescendo with this glorious feast! The Holy Spirit is the Person of the Holy Trinity which we seem to neglect. [Really?] But still, the age we live in since the Ascension is the AGE of the Spirit. [Hmmm….] It was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Vatican Council II happened. History making and world shaking, the Church came up to date under the Spirit’s guidance. [I think you are getting a sense of this fellow’s age and basic formation.] The history of the Church since those moments is the successful or unsuccessful implementation of that wonderful coming together of the Church. [Here we go…] Those who have resisted the Council have resisted the Spirit. [Is that so? Fr. Wissman knows this? We can at least affirm that Council’s are guided by the Holy Spirit when they, with the Bishop of Rome, teach concerning faith and morals. In Acts 15:28 we read, "It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us …." But when the matter does not have to do with faith and morals, does the Holy Spirit guide a Council? Also, the Second Vatican Council is considered a "pastoral", rather than "dogmatic" or "doctrinal" Council, even though it issued a "dogmatic constitution". What does that mean for the involvement of the Holy Spirit.] It is sad [Get this…] that the implementation did not take place in many places and that [!] has led to a great decline in true membership in the church and the increase of the powers of divergence from the Kingdom of God. [This is loaded with problems, as I am sure you have already seen. First, the writer wants you to accept a premise: problems have come about in the Church where the Council was not implemented. On the other hand, "Council" – especially from a liberal – could mean just about anything, including suggestions that have nothing to do with the Council’s documents. I suspect that the shift above from the use of "Holy Spirit" to just "Spirit" in relation to inspiration for the Council was telling. Next, what does "true membership" mean? Is he suggesting, for example, that there is some sort of additional litmus text, known to the writer. This smacks of gnosticism. Notice also that phrase "powers of divergence". I think that means any influence exerted by anyone who does not share the writer’s outdated and rigid understanding of the Council. And note that the writer seems also to have insight not only into "true membership" but also who belongs to the "Kingdom of God". This goes beyond pompous to dangerously judgmental.] In the United States, however, for the most part the implementation took
It is the Spirit who guards the church from the powers of hell. [Not content with "powers of divergence", now he refers to anyone who has a vision that differs from his own as "powers of hell".] Jesus tells us: fear not, the Father will send you the Spirit… The great and powerful God the Spirit blows throughout the universe seeking souls open to the new creation, seeking hearts open to its promptings, seeking to uphold those whose knees are weak and confirming those who seek God. And it is not just the Catholic Church that is gifted with the Holy Spirit. Every good inspiration, every good act, every humble prayer has as its source the one and same Spirit. All religions ancient and new are impacted by the Spirit and are made ready for advancement toward truth, unity and peace. ["Not just the Catholic Church… all religions…"]
Blessings!
Fr Pat
Dear Parishioners,
root and has made the U.S. Catholic Church very vital and a shining example of true Christianity. [Has the writer not reviewed lately statistics about Mass attendance, use of the sacrament of penance, marriage, and belief in doctrines of the Church? Unless, though it is hard to imagine this, the plummeting statistics are what he is talking about.] The recent efforts of faithless and hypocritical people to make the church go backward are ill conceived and will fail. [So, anyone who has what Pope John Paul II referred do as a "legitimate aspiration" is faithless and hypocritical. Benedict XVI is also "faithless and hypocritical" by the fact of the provisions of Summorum Pontificum and his statements about "continuity" and the clear explanation that what was sacred in the past is sacred also now.] What a mistake it was for the Pope (who had the best of intentions) to lift a ban on those reactionary groups who want a dead church of Latin language and a rejection of Vatican II. [Once again, the example of a liberal who invokes a Council he has never read: Latin remains the language of the liturgy, something required by the Second Vatican Council. Furthermore, the word "ban" is inaccurate. The writer is no doubt poorly imformed.] One of the Bishops of one group even publicly takes a stand saying that the Holocaust is a myth. [That would be SSPX Bp. Williamson. Now get this…] These people [He is no longer talking about just SSPX Bp. Williamson…] who may appear very pious (as the Pharisees did!) are really whitewashed sepulchers (to use the words of Jesus). [I think he just called John Paul II, Pope Benedict, every bishop who has ever granted use of the older Mass, or participated in one, every priest who uses the older forms and all the lay people who desire the opportunity to participate in the older forms… or even in the Novus Ordo in Latin… "whitewashed sepulchers". Does that set well with you? Does that set well with the Bishop of Springfield-Cape Girardeau? I think I recently saw His Eminence Card. Baum at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception on 24 April – a former bishop of the writer’s diocese – participating at a Pontifical Mass with the older form. He must be a "whitewashed sepulcher" also.] The Holy Spirit always leads us into the future, not into the past. [What confused claptrap. The writer pretends to know what the motions and urgings of the Holy Spirit are. This is part of the writer’s gnostic approach.] As we celebrate this faith-moment honoring God, the Holy Spirit let us be aware that trust as well as faith is needed…trust in the leadership of the Holy Spirit, trust in the Spirit’s healing powers as well as creativity under the Spirit’s egis. [sic]I think this could fairly easily be classified as "anti-Catholic".
I wonder if Fr. Wissman’s bishop agrees with this "pastor’s page".
Latin and the traditional forms of worship might not be your thing… but does this strike you as just? Does this seem right to you?
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LOL I have never seen you redmark an article so much.
We’ll just call him Father Relativism… for that is HIS theology
I also take issue with “Earth Shaking”
The council didnt evangelize the world. It is US that are supposed to do that. Priests like him think that because they got something percieved new…that the world would just start, and is still changing, simply because we had a meeting. Far from that.
The council taught just the opposite – You have to get your rump out of the Pew and spread the Gospel. I would suspect most of his parish cant do this unassisted… alas I digress.
yet another Hijacker of the Second Vatican Council
“The Holy Spirit is the Person of the Holy Trinity which we seem to neglect.”
It should have been: “… Whom we negelect” not “which we neglect”. There’s a difference between a “person whom I neglect” and a “thing which I neglect”.
I stand corrected..the phrase he used was “World shaking”
Andrew –
When you are as gnostic as this priest seems to be, the Spirit is a tool, rather then a person of God…
Its my same qualm with alot of Charismatics . They see the Holy Spirit as someone that can be “Harnessed”, when in reality, for lack of any other words, we are blessed with His presence, and again to use a cliche, bathed in His grace.
Luckily in 20 years, these guys will all be retired or dead and we can get back to normality
“…the writer’s outdated and rigid understanding of the Council.”
Rigid? It’s completely brittle!
Well if ever the creators of the Muppet Show were seeking a replacement for either Waldorf or Stadtler – they need look no further than this cookie-monster!
WHY OH WHY do the Bishops allow this numpties to hold sway – it really is beyond me.
How long Oh Lord? How long?
PAUL VI explicity said the VII did not teach anything infallibly that was new. Anything infallible in the council is only so because it was already taught infallibly by previous Church teaching. VII is NOT AN INFALLIBLE DOGMATIC COUNCIL according to Paul VI himself.
“But still, the age we live in since the Ascension is the AGE of the Spirit.”
A sort of Joachism lives on I see – further proof that St. Pius X was right in calling Modernism “the synthesis of all heresies.”
Well it certainly isn’t very pastoral! I guess we know who isn’t welcome at that parish.
…in 20 years they’ll all be retired or dead…
and so will I, being of the same age group as most of them. And my Byzantine parish full of aging Slavs may well be closed. So I would like to see these folks cleared out of the local Latin rite parishes before I am again dependent on one.
This is really shocking and makes me well nigh apoplectic! Can’t we gift the Episcopalians with this fellow?
Susan Peterson
On the about the pastor page the picture of him at age 42 says everything. [No, I am not sure it does. People have done crazy things in the past and then come to their senses later.]
I really don’t understand… Bp. Lefebvre had to endure excommunication for his act of dissent. Seriously…what is it that allows this kind of thing to persist? There should be a public penance required for such public scandal…
Man! He seems like a real grooovy guy!
“whitewashed sepulchers” is inappropriate and severe. It connotes grave sinfulness covered with pious hypocrisy. He needs to publish a clarification if he did not intend what he wrote or an apology if in fact he did. Then he needs to examine his attitudes that reflect complacency and smugness. They’re not beneficial for anyone leading a community of faith. The blind leading the blind.
But it’s not as bad as one who refuses to see. Cfr. http://divine-ripples.blogspot.com/2010/05/godly-leader-is-like-granny-in-combat.html
I consider myself a liberal/progressive on theology, and a (liberal-leaning) moderate on Liturgy. Let me just say…
I find this priest to be an embarrassment to liberalism and progressivism. I think he, and his ilk, are doing more to damage the “Spirit of Vatican II” than any Extraordinary Form loving conservative ever could.
You can not exalt a spirit of welcome and inclusivity, and tout the goodness of “ancient” religions (and sing that awful song) while at the same time denying the goodness and holiness of the spiritual lives of those who are fed and nourished by the usus antiquior. That’s not very welcoming, yo.
(As a side note… Am I the only one in the world who considers Benedict’s approach to liturgy, and Summorum Pontificum, to be… well…. liberal and progressive?)
Why do the “Spirit of Vatican II” types always use such squishy, ambiguous words? Which came first, relativism in belief or relativism in language?
I should say then, at least thats when it started to go downhill for him then.
@brianwalden
I think both came at the same time.
He’s a real head case. I feel sorry for his parishioners. They deserve a Catholic priest.
Bolivar is a little north of Springfield, MO. The diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau spans the southern third of Missouri. The diocese is also ONLY 2% Catholic- it’s Mission Territory still.
This helps explain (it doesn’t excuse) the writings of this poor clueless priest. Although the new bishop, I hear, is doing a great job in turning things around.
Sadly, I know some of the people in this diocese and they tend to be ultra-liberals,pro-abortion,pro-contraception and even liberation theology buffs. The real white-washed sepulchers are those liberals who pretend to be faithful sons and daughters in the Church,while despising the Truths and Teachings of the Magisterium. The hyprocrites are those who seem holy and good and faithful, but are dead inside,lacking humility and obedience-two basic signs of holiness. A true son and daughter of the Church loves the Pope, the Liturgy, and the movement of Reconciliation which this present Pope has accomplished in several areas. This letter has confirmed what I have seen coming out of the diocese. I do not know if it is a lack of discipline on the part of the Bishop,or just some of the priests there. There is no excuse for this and the letter should be in public contradicted by the new Bishop.
Tick-tock.
Diabolical disorientation at its finest.
Fr. Wissman, the Holy Spirit inspired and guided the development of the traditional liturgy for almost two millenia. Your fellow iconoclasts and modernists wrecked His work. Do not imagine that He pleased with you.
We traditional Catholics are going up, not backward. In other words, we stress the eternal. You cling to the ephemeral, to fashion, and like all fashion, yours has become ridiculous in short order.
I invite you to attend a traditional Latin Mass in choir and listen for a tiny whispering sound. Then cover your face before His glory and repent.
LOL, Bolivar is not too far from my former neck of the woods. Oh, well… when another New Ager throws a nutty, you know your prayers are working. Here goes another Our Father offered up for the Holy Father. I may throw in a Hail Mary (One of those divisive prayers… just to harsh Father Wissman’s mellow).
Fr. Z,
Stories like like demand the creation of a Fr. Z Facepalm Badge. I vote for one of these two images:
http://sondrak.com/images/uploads/pope_face_palm.jpg
http://www.holamun2.com/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jesus-statue.jpg
I wonder if Fr. Wissman’s bishop agrees with this “pastor’s page”.
Before being appointed Bishop of Springfield-Cape Girardeau, Fr. Wissman’s bishop was my parish pastor. As a veteran of numerous parishes in different dioceses in several regions of the U.S., I have never known a more orthodox pastor, a stronger supporter of Faith and Pope, or a straighter shooter.
And he was a strong supporter of our local traditional Latin Mass community. In answer to some questions when he started to introduce Latin chants (Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc.) in our OF Masses, he wrote a memorable parish bulletin column at the opposite extreme from the one under discussion here. It was entitled “Latin and Lima Beans”, and the gist of it was that they’re both good for you, whether you like them or not.
What we have here is the Hermeneutic of Rupture, par excellence. Pre-V2 and Post-V2 are different churches. I don’t think the author intended it, but when he talked about a “dead church of the Latin language”, he included most of the saints on the calendar. I guess they’re all “white washed tombs”.
Oh wait, they’re in Heaven.
I am inclined to agree with one of Father Bolivar’s statements: “It is sad that the implementation (of Vatican II) did not take place in many places and that has led to a great decline in true membership in the church and the increase of the powers of divergence from the Kingdom of God.” Though we are definately comming at this reality from two different understandings of the proper implimentation of the Council.
PS. Also, take a look at a recent photo of Bishop Johnston:
http://home.catholicweb.com/diocspfdcape/index.cfm
Anybody ever see a “whited sepulcher” that looked like this?
“All religions ancient and new are impacted by the Spirit and are made ready for advancement toward truth, unity and peace.”
Including Satanism? What about Baal worship?
“For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils” Psalm 95:5
“And Jehu and Jonadab the son of Rechab went to the temple of Baal, and said to the worshippers of Baal: Search, and see that there be not any with you of the servants of the Lord, but that there be the servants of Baal only. And they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings: but Jehu had prepared him fourscore men without, and said to them: If any of the men escape, whom I have brought into your hands, he that letteth him go shall answer life for life. And it came to pass, when the burnt offering was ended, that Jehu commanded his soldiers and captains, saying: Go in, and kill them, let none escape. And the soldiers and captains slew them with the edge of the sword, and cast them out: and they went into the city of the temple of Baal,
And brought the statue out of Baal’s temple, and burnt it, And broke it in pieces. They destroyed also the temple of Baal, and made a jakes in its place unto this day. So Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel: But yet he departed not from the sills of Jeroboam the son of Nabat, who made Israel to sin, nor did he forsake the golden calves that were in Bethel and Dan. And the Lord said to Jehu: Because thou hast diligently executed that which was right and pleasing in my eyes, and hast done to the house of Achab according to all that was in my heart: thy children shall sit upon the throne of Israel to the fourth Generation.” 4 Kings
Hmm there seems to be some disagreement between this man and God.
I am from the Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau and attend the Traditional Latin Mass at the Cathedral (something of Bishop Johnston’s initiative). When I see something like this, it causes me great distress and sadness as to the state of my Diocese and trembling in my soul at the magnitude of the cross Bp. Johnston has been chosen by Our Lord Jesus Christ to carry. Bishop Johnston has inherited an incredibe mess here and needs many, MANY prayers to even begin removing the cancerous growths on the Church here in Springfield-Cape Girardeau. I humbly ask everyone scandalized by the words of Father Pat to offer reparation, sacrifices and prayers to the Immaculate Heart of Our Blessed Lady and the Sacred Heart of Her Divine Son that those of us in Springfield-Cape may be delivered from the evil that has been growing in this Diocese for a number of years, but most especially for the people in Bolivar, who deserve a priest faithful to the teachings of the Holy Church, but who have been given a destroyer.
PS. I am 23 years old. It cannot be said that I am nostalgic or yearning for the good old days of my youth.
My email to Fr. Wissman:
————————
Dear Father Wissman,
One of the benefits of the glorious age in which we live is the fact that when one posts something to the Internet, everyone can read it, fact-check it and respond when appropriate. As an educated and informed 28-year old Catholic, I am writing to you because I have read your “Pastor’s Comments” for this week (attached), and I think they deserve some response.
First, I agree with you that it is sad that the implementation of the Council did not occur in many parishes. If it had been implemented, those parishes would have preserved Latin (which is not “dead”, but in fact the official language of the Catholic Church, to which you made promises of fidelity), and those parishes would have caused steps to “be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them,” as required by Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium, paragraph 54. I won’t take the time to point out all the clear errors in your screed; suffice to say that, thanks to the Internet, it is now possible for the faithful to read the documents of Vatican II and find out for themselves that the Council had nothing to do with banning the usage of the 1962 Missale Romanum or the Latin Mass.
Second, your lumping of holocaust-denying SSPX bishops with traditionally-minded faithful Catholics is unwarranted. I know of no Catholic, traditional or otherwise, who explicitly rejects Vatican II’s teachings. What traditional Catholics do reject is any notion that Vatican II had a “Spirit” of its own apart from the Holy Spirit, and any notion that this so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” may be used to justify what amounts to destruction and heresy. Shame on you for (implicitly) teaching your parishioners that traditionally-minded Catholics are not not “true” members of the Church. What secret knowledge have you gained that the rest of us are missing out on? Shame on you for suggesting that the Latin Mass or its adherents were ever “banned.” Shame on you for suggesting that the Pope (even though well-intentioned) and others like him are “faithless” and “hypocritical” and want the Church to move “backwards.” The Church only moves into the future when it listens to the Holy Spirit and moves toward God. When it does so, it tends to rid itself of dissenters and modernists who think they know better than the Church and its 2000 years of guidance by the Holy Spirit. The only proper direction for the Church to move is toward God and toward authentic Christian behavior and authentic Catholic teaching and liturgy. Hearing you call faithful Catholics who remained attached to the Latin Mass “reactionary” would be funny, were it not so sad. The only reactionary responses to the Council came from your ilk, who ripped the altars off the walls, moved the tabernacles and adopted syncretism and indifference as the new orthodoxy. You seem to have forgotten that the Holy Spirit guided the Church for the nineteen hundred and sixty two years prior to the Second Vatican Council, and that the Holy Spirit continues to guide her today. Your view that Latin is a “dead language” and that participants in in the Latin Mass “reject” Vatican II is an unfortunate one; it is a sad take (myopic snapshot?) of a particular point in the Church’s history, a small point, which is now passing.
Finally, you are right that the Second Vatican Council was world shaking. All my generation asks is that yours stays quietly out of the way while we pick up the pieces of all the stuff that you broke and try to recover the heritage that you looted during the quake. If you choose to keep spouting new age and gnostic nonsense, as is your right, please remember that when you post things on the Internet, people can read it, fact-check it and respond to it.
Sincerely,
This poor individual is really messed up and a serious danger to the faith of any unsuspecting people who listen to or read his poisonous ranting. Malignant self deception and anthropocentrism
He’ll bring this before the Judgment Seat of Christ. Praying for his conversion to the Catholic faith.
This kind of talk about the Holy Spirit in connection with an unwavering commitment to the “spirit of V2” as these people misunderstand it, does such harm to the real Third Person of the Trinity. I find myself loathe to speak so much of reliance on the Holy Spirit and to have suspicions of folks who speak so much about the Holy Spirit guiding us. The Holy Spirit is indeed the Third Person of the Trinity sent to aid us after Jesus returned to His Father in heaven. But these folks see the (Holy) Spirit as some force unmoored from Catholic Tradition–eg, liturgy, theology and morality.
About the comparison with the Pharisees…. sometimes I think that if I were a Jew when Jesus was alive I would not have believed in Him. I would have seen Him as challenging all the ancient traditions and the religion given by God. So can someone point out the differences? I know a difference is that Jesus is the Son of God and this is an anti-Catholic priest but didn’t pious Jews see Jesus as anti-Jewish?
And just for the record I love Latin and Catholic traditions and I completely disagree with Father Wissman. But this is something that confuses me and when a friend says she doesn’t want to go to a Traditional Mass because she doesn’t want to be with “a bunch of rule-followers like the Pharisees” I’m not sure how to respond to her.
Thanks for any insights!
Elly
But these folks see the (Holy) Spirit as some force unmoored from Catholic Tradition—eg, liturgy, theology and morality.
If, then, they deny the role of the Holy Spirit in the development of Tradition down through the centuries, might we therefore call them “Holy Spirit deniers”? (And, more seriously, might such denial be a sin against the Holy Spirit?)
Like far too many Catholic clergy he has no understanding of obedience nor any respect for leadership. His ilk needs to die off so real progress can be made.
“About the comparison with the Pharisees…. sometimes I think that if I were a Jew when Jesus was alive I would not have believed in Him. I would have seen Him as challenging all the ancient traditions and the religion given by God. So can someone point out the differences?”
The difference is that the Jews had been told Christ was coming long in advance and were waiting for Him. He wasn’t challenging ancient traditions He was fulfilling them as He Himself made clear. You must remember the Pharisees had no authority from God they were not high priests they were just a group of “lay” Jews who had usurped the authority of the high priests and then imposed their interpretation of the scriptures onto others.
Fr. Wissman fits the role of a Sadducee now I come to think of it, and he and his kind will no doubt come to the same end.
“The great and powerful God the Spirit”… sounds like the wording used to describe the wizard in the “Wizard of Oz”. And that’s exactly what the “spirit of Vatican II” is for these people, a wizard who promises everything but fails to truly deliver. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain – it’s just your local liberal pulling levers and blowing steam. Only the Traditional Faith will provide us with true courage, knowledge and heart, through the REAL Holy Spirit, the Holy One who directs the Pope and all those who are in union with him.
blah, blah, blah….
So I am a whitewashed sepulcher because I prefer the Older form of Mass, practise traditional devotions, am friends with clergy and religious who do so the same (all whilst being fine with the Novus Ordo), hope for the cannocial regulurarisation of the SSPX, am faithfull to the traditions and teachings of the Church and if (God willing) ordained will offer both the EF and OF and will actually teach my flock. hmmm…… perhaps someone should remind Fr. Wissman that he’s in sales not management and doesn’t have the liberty to change the offer (Eternal Life).
Very sad. Yes I have had to endure such an attitude myself and it is this sort of attitude that has sent millions out of the Church.
I have two sisters in this diocese. My one sister lives in a small town and now drives about 25 miles to another town because her home parish is unendurable.
My other sister was away from the Church for years and did not raise her children Catholic. She told me that a priest told her that as long as she went to “a” church on Sunday, she was fine. So she did. She went to a New Way or New Horizon or New Hope sort of non-denom, no rules, have your coffee and bagel and enjoy the Christian rock music and a skit sort of church. I went there once; it was painful. Not a faith to last 2000 years for sure.
But I know one could hear almost anything from any given priest in that diocese for years. There just has not been much I could say to my sisters when they were in a parish and trusted their priest. I did not want to harm their trust but I knew they were not getting the Gospel. When you live in a small town with no handy recourse, what do you do?
At least for a while my sister in the small town (the other is now in Springfield) had a good Msgr who was a true spiritual father. That pastor brought my brother-in-law and most of his family into the Church and brought my sister to full practice of the faith. He cared for his flock. He visited homes. A good and holy priest. But he retired some years ago.
Classic resentful, aging liberal DRECK….I’m just surprised he’s not part of the contributing staff at the National Catholic Reporter. My entire four years at CUA (79-83) was FILLED with this kind of effluvia….a key reason I almost lost my faith….(almost).
SonofMonica, that was a great response. If you get a response from him, please post it. But given that Father Wissman appears “intellectually challenged” I doubt he will understand what you have written. I bet he has a “special” version of Sacrosanctum Concilium which deletes the portions he doesn’t like. I have to say,given the fact this clown, masquerading as a Catholic priest, is in his 70s, if I were his bishop, I might suggest he retire soon “and very soon” (I think that line comes from what I am sure is one of his favorite hymns). There must have been some pretty poor training in the seminary when he was coming up the ranks.
Anyone else love the fact that while liberals HATE authority, they can’t stand when someone challenges them. They always make me laugh, because they are not anti-authority, they are anti humility. Authority is okay to them as long as it is their authority being respected
The fact that Father Wissman is claiming that the Holy Spirit is not just leading Catholicism but all religions is heretical. I’m trying to figure what Spirit he is talking about. Is it the Holy Ghost or some other vague spirit? Apparently he doesn’t really know.
a friend says she doesn’t want to go to a Traditional Mass because she doesn’t want to be with “a bunch of rule-followers like the Pharisees” I’m not sure how to respond to her.
I hear that same argument a LOT! I suspect the denial of authority may be at the root of it. It certainly could become a topic for Fr. Z to throw out there sometime. Yes, it would be nice to have an easy (and charitable) comeback for that.
Jack in KC
And it is not just the Catholic Church that is gifted with the Holy Spirit. Every good inspiration, every good act, every humble prayer has as its source the one and same Spirit. All religions ancient and new are impacted by the Spirit and are made ready for advancement toward truth, unity and peace. [“Not just the Catholic Church… all religions…”]
Blessings!
Fr Pat
It is true that the Holy Spirit is the source of every truly supernatural act. To say, however, that the Holy Spirit is the source of ALL religions is presumptuous. And presumption is a sin against the Holy Spirit.
But given that Father Wissman appears “intellectually challenged” I doubt he will understand what you have written.
If he does respond, I’ll bet a few donuts that the response will be about SonofMonica’s “tone” and have phony concern for perceived anger. Anything except the substance.
But this is something that confuses me and when a friend says she doesn’t want to go to a Traditional Mass because she doesn’t want to be with “a bunch of rule-followers like the Pharisees” I’m not sure how to respond to her.
Comment by Elly
Ask her whether she is following the rules of the masses she attends. I attend daily vernacular masses, and there are plenty of rules.
The irony of the Pharisee criticism is that it employs a typical Pharisaical argument: WE don’t want to be like THEM.
Scott W, in psychology that is what is called “projection.” Wissman is a very, very angry man, because he knows his phony spirit of Vatican World is collapsing and young faithful Catholics aren’t interested in that ersatz brand of Catholicism in the least. I pity him, but pity his parish more because they have him.
In the 1960s a young priest in my parish accused me of being concerned with “externals” when I challenged the necessity for the changes. I turned the tables on him and said, “well if you’re not concerned with externals, why change anything.” He didn’t like that a teenager had outsmarted him. A typical, liberal.
But this is something that confuses me and when a friend says she doesn’t want to go to a Traditional Mass because she doesn’t want to be with “a bunch of rule-followers like the Pharisees” I’m not sure how to respond to her.
Dear Elly
Ask her what she means by ‘rules’, everyone I know at my sunday FSSP parish dresses smartly for the Holy Sacrifice because they love God enough to make an effort, the same as they love God enough to make an effort to attend Ascenscion day Mass on the actual day and the ladies wear the mantilla out of love for God, often times its love not rules that defines the TLM’ers that I know of, sure there are a few hardliners who will only attend the NO if they have no choice but the majority of them have no problem with the Ordinary Form so long as its properly celebrated.
Jack in UK
After enduring eight years of Jesuit formation, I can assure you that there is no more totalitarian ideology on this planet than that of “Spirit of Vatican II” liberalism.
Fr. Benedict Groeschel said it best:
“Having been burned at the stake by both liberals and conservatives, I maintain that I would always rather be burned by conservatives; they admit that they are doing it out of hate. When you happen to be burned at the stake by liberals, you have to accept the ignominy of being burned out of love.”
Jesus tells us: fear not, the Father will send you the Spirit… The great and powerful God the Spirit blows throughout the universe seeking souls open to the new creation, seeking hearts open to its promptings, seeking to uphold those whose knees are weak and confirming those who seek God. And it is not just the Catholic Church that is gifted with the Holy Spirit. Every good inspiration, every good act, every humble prayer has as its source the one and same Spirit. All religions ancient and new are impacted by the Spirit and are made ready for advancement toward truth, unity and peace.
I had to reread this. At first I thought he was talking about the great and powerful Oz! (Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.)
Father W, I only wish you to reflect on how many souls you may have damaged or lead astray by teaching us all that disrespect and disobedience to the Roman Pontiff is OK..A Virulent and disgusting article..
“These people” – that cracked me up
SonofMonica –
“All my generation asks is that yours stays quietly out of the way while we pick up the pieces of all the stuff that you broke and try to recover the heritage that you looted during the quake.”
Amen!
God have mercy on those who have robbed us, and thank God for the good priests, bishops, and our Holy Father who are returning the treasures of the church to us.
Bolivar is a small town in SW Missouri. Dr. Eric has mentioned that it is within the Springfield-Cape Gerardeau diocese which he stated was only 2% Catholic. I would assume that, probably, the biggest employer in Bolivar is Southwest Baptist University. LOL: need I say more?
“a friend says she doesn’t want to go to a Traditional Mass because she doesn’t want to be with “a bunch of rule-followers like the Pharisees” I’m not sure how to respond to her.”
Tell her that’s fine as long as she understands that refusing to be in communion with those who follow Gods rules in this life means she also will not be with them in the next life either, and they will be with their Lord whose rules they have obeyed as faithful servants.
If people will not say to the Lord “Thy will be done” the Lord will say to them “Thy will be done” and will allow such unfaithful servants who refused to serve Him AS HE ASKED, not in whatever way pleased themselves which is really just serving themselves, then God will allow them to follow the path they picked out of His abode and away from Him.
This kind of thinking is exactly what the writer accuses others of — narrow, intolerant, and hateful. We are all Catholics. Many people on both ends of the spectrum are intolerant of the rest, thinking themselves the only “real” Catholics.
Personally, I’m with Adam W. I find the pope’s reaching out to the people this priest despises, as well as all the people who love the extraordinary form of the mass, to be wonderfully progressive and “liberal.” We all have a place. What matters is how faithful we are to God. You can be faithful or unfaithful in the most “liberal” AND the most “progressive” parishes. I wouldl ike to see a world in which the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the liturgy both flourished, with good and faithful people in each. Of course there will always be “tares in the wheat,” but we shouldn’t be encouraging the tares! They don’t need any encouragement.
Adam: Am I the only one in the world who considers Benedict’s approach to liturgy, and Summorum Pontificum, to be… well…. liberal and progressive?
Doesn’t everyone?. Well, at least, everyone who understands the word “liberal”. What might be more liberal than the intent that both ordinary and extraordinary flowers flourish in the liturgical garden?
Gail: I would like to see a world in which the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the liturgy both flourished, with good and faithful people in each.
So I’d perhaps change only that last word, and make it “both”. Meaning that in the typical parish, the OF and EF really would be mutually reinforcing forms of one and the same Roman rite, truly just different ways of celebrating one and the same Holy Sacrifice, nobody uptight about either, most everyone appreciating both and attending each of them on occasion. Of course, this might assume some of that “mutual enrichment” that Pope Benedict desires.
I am again writing from the wonderful world of Mater Ecclesiae Mission in Berlin, New Jersey. In our small but growing and vibrantly Traditional “parish” we currently have three–count ’em—THREE seminarians at the Fraternity of St. Peter and one young lady who has joined the Benedictines of Mary. I doubt there are many entire dioceses who can boast of numbers like that!
It is due entirely to our dear Pastor of Souls, Fr. Robert Pasley.
Out of charity I will say no more regarding “Fr. Pat.”
I know nothing about the writer, but his piece is a string of half-truths and cliches. You could throw this sort of things together in about 5 minutes.
It panders to every stereotype and repeats the same theme I picked up when staying with a priest friend and speed-reading some of his (modernist) books: “Unless you have been through a complete change since Vat II you have not been sufficiently “proved” ” Those who remained faithful to pre-Vat II ways are dross and left-overs.
Fortunately it not Tradition that dies, only those who re-invent it for whatever reason. They are automatically programmed to become obsolete.
That must be a considerable comfort to us all.
Barbara S
WOW!!
At least he has a nice watch…
What Barbara S reports for Mater Ecclesiae Dei is impressive, but from my experience, not completely surprising for a cohesive traditional Latin Mass community.
Our local TLM community is both smaller and less focused, not a “full service” traditional parish or mission but people driving in from scattered parishes for Sunday high Mass. However, we have one postulant in a conservative order of nuns, one traditional seminarian, another in a conservative seminary, and another on the way. Plus at least a couple of apparently active discerners.
Actually, it appears that almost every young TLM altar boy (here and elsewhere) aspires at some point to be a priest. Perhaps because when he begins to serve the altar the TLM celebrant is the most masculine model he’s aware of.
But then there are parishes in which the pastor exhibits a quite different type of role model. Interestingly (if anecdotally) these parishes apparently generate neither male or female vocations.
To be totally fair… “whited sepulchre” is pretty much an all-purpose insult for people in authority or who dress nicely, in folks of German descent of Fr. Wissman’s vintage and older. I’ve heard it a lot from my mom. Sometimes it’s a well-deserved reprimand for hypocrisy — and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it just means “I think these people are getting above themselves and I don’t like it”, or “I approve of their fashion sense/speech delivery, but not of all their actions and politics”, or “how dare they reprimand others when they make serious administrative errors themselves”.
So it’s possible that he didn’t mean it quite as harshly as the Gospel idiom, although in that case he should watch his tongue. But the whole article is a lot of flailing and random buzzwords and comforting old slogans, so I don’t think clear incisive expression was on the program.
But man! Changing it to “whitewashed sepulchres” totally destroys the insult scansion! Lame!
I am again writing from the wonderful world of Mater Ecclesiae Mission in Berlin, New Jersey. In our small but growing and vibrantly Traditional “parish” we currently have three—count ‘em—-THREE seminarians at the Fraternity of St. Peter and one young lady who has joined the Benedictines of Mary. I doubt there are many entire dioceses who can boast of numbers like that!
Indeed. This is the elephant in the living room. And I encourage anyone when these discussions come up to do a little research into the vocation numbers of the particular diocese. It’s not hard. Most diocese have a web page and most of these show off seminary enrollments and ordinations. For instance, in my Diocese of Richmond, which isn’t traditional, but not loopy either, manages to have seminary enrollments and ordinations every year. I compared that to a certain other infamous diocese which I won’t name where there is not another ordination until 2014 and only recently managed to find someone to ordain under the pastoral provision.
The pattern is unmistakable. And the CARA study (see here:http://www.catholicworldreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=185:the-cara-study-and-vocations&catid=37:exclusive&Itemid=54) goes a long way to proving it.
Oh, and his use of this idiom implies that the EF and the new translation of the OF, as well as all the Benedictine reforms, are in fact beautiful, desirable, and good. He’s just not liking the “uppityness” or imperfection of the people implementing them, and implying that their motives are not really loving the EF and OF as much as he does.
Heh, heh…. beyond all the peer pressure and slogans, he wants to reform the reform also. :)
Note in this photograph from First Communion, 2010, Fr. Wissman’s use of a wine glass rather than a proper chalice:
http://share.shutterfly.com/share/received/detail.sfly?sid=8IZNWTJmzasc0&imageIndex=10&fid=358038e85b183554
Redemptionis Sacramentum makes clear that this is illicit:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwrdsac.htm
“Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily.”
This is what I get for not discovering Fr. Z and WDTPRS any earlier. Southwest Missouri is _the motherland_, folks. Please tread lightly. We’re not all that deluded there. My journey to Rome started in a town not far from Bolivar. btw, that’s pronounced “BAHL-liver.”
For Ad and Fr. Eric, St. Pius X is one of the diocese’s patrons! Many of the missions are now thriving parishes, originally founded by the American advocate for Pius’ canonization, KC MO archbishop Edwin O’Hara. It would be interesting to learn what the diocese has to say about Father Wissman.
Moreover, as m kramer 2004 noted above, there is a TLM at the Cathedral in Springfield every Sunday at 2:30; there are also Latin Masses four days during the week. Fr. Wissman’s remarks on a “dead church of Latin language” are, therefore, a direct attack on a practice instituted by Bishop Johnston.
See page two of the bulletin for Pentecost Sunday, the day after tomorrow:
http://saintagnescathedral.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Bulletin-May23-2010.pdf
Fr. Wissman’s remarks on a “dead church of Latin language” are, therefore, a direct attack on a practice instituted by Bishop Johnston.
Hmmm…perhaps the good bishop ought to be informed from one of his flock.
Winfield: You are referring to this, from the bulletin of the Cathedral?
Well, maybe Fr. Wissman’s whining is understandable. I have mentioned that, when he was our diocesan chancellor, Bishop Johnston was a strong supporter of our traditional Latin Mass community. Perhaps someone on the scene can refine this report, but I understand that one of his first moves as their new bishop was to bring “in from a cold” a priest to celebrate the TLM in his cathedral. A report that actually is from the scene.
Traditional Catholicism Restored to the Ozark Mountains
http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/06/traditional-catholicism-restored-to.html
Pope Benedict XVI’s “reform of the reform” has hit the Ozark Mountains of the central Midwestern states. In this northwest corner of the Bible Belt, and upper hills region of Dixie, lies one of the most socially conservative regions of the entire United States. ….. While the return of traditional Catholicism was delayed to the Ozarks for decades, under the reign of our current pope, and the pastoral care of newly appointed bishops, the Ozarks are now witnessing a complete revival of traditional Catholicism.
Springfield Missouri, often referred to as the “Queen City of the Ozarks” now provides both Sunday and weekday Latin mass at St. Agnes Cathedral. Weekday masses are low, and Sunday masses are high, with Gregorian chant and traditional hymns. Weekly Latin masses are also provided in Missouri at Queen of All Saints Chapel in Springfield, Holy Trinity Church in Marshfield, St. Williams Church in Buffalo, St. Anthony Chapel in Jefferson City, St. Ann Parish in Carthage, Assumption Parish in New Haven, and St. Martin Church in Starkenburg.
… while he was our diocesan chancellor in Knoxville (TN), Bishop Johnston …
I’ve given this some thought; a day or so; rather than “impulsively react” (my predominate fault!)…and this is my thought: the screaming/gnashing of teeth/rage is getting louder in some circles. Now, as a person who prefers to look at the glass half-full rather than half-empty, this is a good sign.
“Times, they are a changin'”…
For the better.
Father needs prayers and a good dose of reality.
Let him rant and fume.
His blood pressure will not be any the better for it.
Yes that is accurate Henry. One of the first things the Bishop did was change the recently instituted TLM from once a month at a Church to nearly daily at the Cathedral. Please redouble your prayers in Knoxville for Bp. Johnston, I think over the next few months he will be getting an accurate picutre of some of his priests (I think he already has one of Father Pat), even ones that up until now he has viewed as being close to him, when they couldn’t be more seperate from him or the mind of the Church.
Yes, Fr. Z, that is the bulletin to which I referred. Note that there is a Latin Mass scheduled for Wednesdays, also.
i am supposed to go to fr w’s parish…i just can’t do it.
our diocese is only 2 % Cathlic….but it’s not protestants who get pissy about TLM.
They actually really admire the history and importance of it.
Thank you to those who answered my question, especially Leonius in your explanation about the Pharisees.
bobw45–> Cape Girardeau is on the South Eastern part of Mo, across the Mississippi from IL, near Cairo. SPFLD and Branson are in the west. So, it’s a spread out diocese that covers all of Southern MO, east to west–the heart of the bible belt, indeed, nonetheless.
*But when the matter does not have to do with faith and morals, does the Holy Spirit guide a Council?*
The answer is NO, and this isn’t my opinion, but is theologically correct (cf. Msgr. Brunero Gherardini, “The Ecumenical Vatican Council II, a Much Needed Discussion.”) In fact, the Holy Spirit’s guidance can be drowned-out by the individual wills of men at such a council. As such, Vatican II contains errors.
Here’s another nugget from Gherardini directly on-point:
It is only to the Churchs authentic Magisterium that the Holy Spirit entrusts the office of transmission. It would not be a bad idea if some of the enlightened, post-conciliar innovators (who so flippantly presume to attach the Holy Spirit to their personal theories) were to reread at leas a couple of the 26 theses of Franzelin [a theologian] on Tradition; perhaps in this way they might grasp that Tradition lies completely in the hands of the Magisterium…only the Magisterium has been divinely assured of the Holy Spirits assistance.
It seems like Fr. Wissman (his white hair gives me hope that perhaps he was properly trained in theology) should blow the dust off his seminary theology books (if he has them), and trash-bin the pseudo-catholic new-age-lite psychobabble that he must be reading as evidenced by his pastoral letter.
Why that emotion in his writing? That’s the key. He could not say what he wanted to say without the emotion.
Thank you to those who answered my question, especially Leonius in your explanation about the Pharisees.
It seems to me that the charge of being a Pharisees blows up in progressive’s faces. That is, as I understand it, the main beef with the Pharisees was that they were making up stuff that wasn’t binding and inflicting it on the faithful. That seems like a good description of progressives if there ever was one.
Bounce him out in the street and let him work at McDonald’s for a while and live in a flat/housetrailer/his car. He’s seen the clean side of the blanket too long at the expense of others, and he’s spoiled. I guarantee after that, he’ll come back a different man, and much more obedient.
Here is an article written by Fr. Jeffery Fasching, who celebrates the Mass in the Extraordinary Form at St. Agnes Cathedral in Springfield. http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2010/05/missouri-priest-discovers-renewal-in.html
A quote: “Since I have been offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the extraordinary form I have experienced both a strengthening of my faith and great consolation as a Traditional priest who has experienced tremendous support from a Traditional, like-minded bishop. ”
The previous bishop in our diocese was rather hostile to the TLM and “shepherded” for almost 22 years. Most of our priests are old and/or and solidly spirit of Vatican II types. Mr. Kramer is right; Bishop Johnston has a huge task ahead of him in the years to come and will need many prayers and a lot of encouragement to help him succeed. He is not the type to rule from the castle; even though our diocese can take 7 hours to drive from end to end, he is often on the road and visiting his parishes. Through it all, I have no doubt that he will handle things in his customarily prayerful, gentle, thoughtful and humble manner.
hey tygirwulf….do i know you??? could you go to our blog at http://www.molatinmass.com and send me an email thru the link there?? thanks! trying to network all trad-minded people together…
So much red ink. Looks like one of my essays for High School English class returned to me. Pppe Benedict XVI at one point said both forms could be “mutually enriching.” I would take the Holy Father at his word there. The priest in this article doesn’t seem to think that can be true. Out with the old. In with the new I guess. Would be curious to know what he thinks about the other rites of the Church (Byzantine, etc.). They tend to mirror more closely the solemnity one finds in 1962 rite and haven’t been subjected to all the controversy.
I think Bl. John XXIII was a genuinely spiritual Pope, and his inaugering of VII was, in his mind, the best thing for the Church. As such, the Holy Spirit might have been game to influence it if it weren’t hijacked by modernists.
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0107-conlee
I think Bl. John XXIII was a genuinely spiritual Pope, and his inaugering of VII was, in his mind, the best thing for the Church. As such, the Holy Spirit might have been game to influence it if it weren’t hijacked by modernists.
Comment by Maltese
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is not as powerful as a group of men?