5 Anglican bishops intend to use Anglicanorum coetibus

Keep repeating: Benedict XVI is the Pope of Christian Unity.

From the UK’s best Catholic weekly, the Catholic Herald, comes this about Anglican bishops who will be coming into unity with England’s Church of origin the Catholic Church.

Five traditionalist Anglican bishops have officially resigned this morning with the intention of taking up an English Ordinariate when it is set up.

This morning, the Rt Rev Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury accepted the resignation of three flying Church of England and two retired assistant bishops in what is a major development in the move towards establishing an Ordinariate in Britain.  [I have always loved that image of a “flying bishop”, … in his Sopwith Camel, lappets streaming…]


Dr [Anglican Archbp. of Canterbury Rowan] Williams said: “I have today with regret accepted the resignations of Bishops Andrew Burnham and Keith Newton who have decided that their future in Christian ministry lies in the new structures proposed by the Vatican. We wish them well in this next stage of their service to the Church and I am grateful to them for their faithful and devoted pastoral labours in the Church of England over many years.”

The Catholic liason officer for the Ordinariate, Bishop Alan Hopes, an auxiliary of Westminster said: “We welcome the decision of Bishops Andrew Burnham, Keith Newton, John Broadhurst, Edwin Barnes and David Silk to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church through the Ordinariate for England and Wales, which will be established under the provisions of the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus.”

The bishops are due to discuss the Ordinariate at their plenary meeting next week.

Full statement of the resigning Church of England Bishops:

Like many in the catholic tradition of Anglicanism, we have followed the dialogue between Anglicans and Catholics, the ARCIC process, with prayer and longing. We have been dismayed, over the last thirty years, to see Anglicans and Catholics move further apart on some of the issues of the day, and particularly we have been distressed by developments in Faith and Order in Anglicanism which we believe to be incompatible with the historic vocation of Anglicanism and the tradition of the Church for nearly two thousand years.  [Two points.  Christianity has been around a long time, but the Anglican Church hasn’t.  Also, if Anglicanism and Catholicism have been moving apart, that isn’t because the Catholic Church has shifted her doctrine.]

The Apostolic Constitution, Anglicanorum cœtibus, given in Rome on 4th November 2009, was a response to Anglicans seeking unity with the Holy See. With the Ordinariates, canonical structures are being established through which we will bring our own experience of Christian discipleship into full communion with the Catholic Church throughout the world and throughout the ages. This is both a generous response to various approaches to the Holy See for help and a bold, new ecumenical instrument in the search for the unity of Christians, the unity for which Christ himself prayed before his Passion and Death. It is a unity, we believe, which is possible only in eucharistic communion with the successor of St Peter.

As bishops, we have even-handedly cared for those who have shared our understanding and those who have taken a different view. We have now reached the point, however, where we must formally declare our position and invite others who share it to join us on our journey. We shall be ceasing, therefore, from public episcopal ministry forthwith, resigning from our pastoral responsibilities in the Church of England with effect from 31st December 2010, and seeking to join an Ordinariate once one is created.

We remain very grateful for all that the Church of England has meant for us and given to us all these years and we hope to maintain close and warm relationships, praying and working together for the coming of God’s Kingdom.

We are deeply appreciative of the support we have received at this difficult time from a whole variety of people: archbishops and bishops, clergy and laity, Anglican and Catholics, those who agree with our views and those who passionately disagree, those who have encouraged us in this step and those who have urged us not to take this step.

The Right Revd Andrew Burnham
The Right Revd Keith Newton
The Right Revd John Broadhurst
The Right Revd Edwin Barnes
The Right Revd David Silk


About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

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  1. anthtan says:


    Many things have led up to this moment, but I wonder whether it was the successful Papal visit to the UK that made their minds up.

  2. Joe in Canada says:

    I like the image of the Sopwith Camel but I always thought it was more their Capes, sort of like the Flying Nun.

  3. Liz says:

    God bless them!

  4. pelerin says:

    Fr Z says he imagined a ‘flying bishop’ in his Sopwith Camel. I imagined them as ‘batman’ – never even thought about a plane! I wonder who first coined the phrase?

  5. pelerin says:

    Oops – got my characters mixed up .. I meant ‘Superman’.

  6. tzard says:

    “… and invite others who share it to join us on our journey.”

  7. God bless them! May many more follow!

  8. Prof. Basto says:

    Great news!

    However, I’m a bit worried that so far (one year after Anglicanorum coetibus), no actual Ordinariate has been juridically erected by the Church.

    I have read about several groups of Anglicans who wish to convert under Anglicanorum coetibus, but I don’t understand what is taking the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith so long to implement the several Ordinariates. Not a single one has been created so far.

    It seems that there is stalling going on on the part of the Catholic bureocracy in charge of implementing the Constitution.

  9. Agnes of Prague says:

    Praised be Jesus and Mary for this news!

    The next two months will be awkward interiorly for these five, I would imagine, though. I can see how, if you’re a [putative] bishop, your schedule is booked a long time in advance, and hence the resignation effective at the end of the year… but in between, with what dispositions do you carry out your functions?

  10. I believe the phrase is derived from Scotland Yard’s “Flying Squad”, formed in 1919 as a small but highly mobile police response force. They didn’t fly in planes, but they were very speedy.

  11. Erk. Reading further in the Wiki article, it appears that “flying” was supposed to refer to them being able to operate in the entire Met area, as if flying over all boundaries. So the analogy to flying bishops is even closer.

  12. irishgirl says:

    Wonderful news!
    ‘Flying bishops’: I love that phrase….sounds so British!

  13. Brian Day says:

    Will this announcement open the door for other declarations from the Aussies or the Piskies?

    If so, the Vatican better get together soon to handle the conversions in a timely manner, or the initiative will die on the vine.

  14. Joe in Canada says:

    I think the delay in part might be the question of what to do with the “Bishops” in their midst. The TAC, for example, has many Bishops whose apostolic succession could be accepted, but are married. A Priest of the TAC told me a few years ago (i.e. before the Constitution) that there would be a 50 year ‘grandfather clause’ for married bishops, but apparently this is not the case. So it might be a while to decide who would be the Ordinary in each Ordinariate, and what sort of ministry former married Bishops might do as married priests (if that is what they become).

  15. These bishops really are shepherds — laying down their lives and all that they had known before for the sake of their sheep, whom they will lead — as many as are willing to take the plunge with them — into the true Church.

    I am struck by this latest example of what we see so often among converts from Protestantism: that although these men have come to realize that they must leave the religion in which they grew up, they nevertheless look back on it with gratitude and affection. On the other hand, Catholics who enter Protestant communions are almost uniformly hostile and belligerent toward the Catholic Church.

  16. Legisperitus says:

    @ Anita Moore OPL: Seems sort of like the way you don’t find Catholics suddenly renouncing the Church on their deathbeds whereas there are plenty of deathbed conversions.

  17. priests wife says:

    PRAISE GOD- Let’s offer prayers for these brave men

  18. Re: Prof. Basto’s concern about “delays” in erecting ordinariates.

    I would argue there has been no delay. It will be just one year, tomorrow, since the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus was promulgated, along with a set of [universal] complementary norms. From that point several things needed to happen before the first ordinariate could be set up.

    A) People needed time to read and digest and understand
    B) Groups of Anglicans needed to meet together (at national, diocesan and parish levels) to discuss and decide on their response
    C) Liaison’s in each territory needed to be appointed
    D) Local norms (mentioned in the documents published a year ago) need to be written
    E) The process for reception needs to be detailed and shared with all concerned

    Steps A-C are largely done. But that did take time. Step E has had some rumors bandied about lately, but are still rumors. Step D is really important and is part of what takes time. These local norms will each be different from the other. For example, local norms will likely address things such as property ownership, pensions for clergy, the authority of parish councils (required in Ordinariate parishes, as they are not in most Latin Church parishes, and no doubt of considerable interest in parishes which are used to a vestry system of parish governance which had considerable responsibility for the parish “fabric”), etc. Each national Ordinariate will likely have different norms, as they will have to interface with different national and/or provincial/state laws. This is not an easy thing, but this stuff does need to be done. I find the progress to date heartening.

  19. danphunter1 says:

    “However, I’m a bit worried that so far (one year after Anglicanorum coetibus), no actual Ordinariate has been juridically erected by the Church.”
    Perhaps the Holy Father is preparing an Apostolic Ordinariate for the Anglican bishops, the Transalpine Redemptorists and the FSSPX, to all be “umbrellaed” in at the same time.

  20. Magpie says:


    The Transalpine Redemptorists are already in “canonical good standing” within the Catholic Church.

  21. nanetteclaret says:

    For those who are interested, there is a lot of info at this blog:


    There is information from different Anglican groups around the world, as well as a map showing the groups who have indicated their determination to enter the Ordinariate when it is formed.

    Our Lady of the Atonement Anglican-Use Catholic Church in San Antonio is hosting a “get-together” next week (16-18 Nov.) for those who are interested in becoming part of the Ordinariate. There will be talks, Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Compline, as well as Mass which will be celebrated according to the Anglican Use “Book of Divine Worship” (which is pretty much the Book of Common Prayer, modified and approved by the Vatican.) Fellowship and meals together are also part of the program. The cost is free to attend. More details and info on the get together and how to register (for meal planning) can be found at the Anglo-Catholic blogsite. The original thread is by Fr. Christopher Phillips, so it can be found by searching under his name, if there isn’t time to scroll through all the threads.

  22. Anonymous Seminarian says:

    I’m a little confused about Anglican “Orders.” Is Dr. Williams truly an archbishop? Are these 5 men currently bishops or priests, even? If not, shouldn’t they repudiate their false orders in this statement?

    Secondly, should they not repudiate the Anglican “Church”? The Roman Rite’s acceptance of converts from non-Catholic sects is pretty clear about the need to repudiate false beliefs. I don’t see how anyone could avail himself of Anglicanorum coetibus without also denying the ligitimacy of the Anglican Communion. Assuming, of course, that it is illegitimate. I thought I heard a while ago that, under the provision, they would be ordained, and not “provisionally” ordained, either, but I could be wrong.

  23. jlmorrell says:

    Anonymous Seminarian,

    Even though it is not politically correct to do so, I too share these concerns. While I am very happy to have Anglicans convert, it seems to me that there must be a clear repudiation of false beliefs and an unequivocal acceptance of Apostolicae Curae in order to avoid scandal.

  24. lmgilbert says:

    Heard at our house:

    “Hey, you’ve got to hear this. Five Anglican bishops are coming into the Church!”
    “And they’re all male, right?”

  25. danphunter1 says:


    While the censure’s have been lifted from the Transalpine Redemptorist priests, they still have not been canonically erected.
    I refer you to a quote from Father Michael Mary the superior of the Transalpine Redemptorists, from their website:
    “Looking to the future, the next stage will be to have our community canonically erected.”

    As of 8 Nov. 2010 this has not happened.

  26. John UK says:

    Anonymous Seminarian,
    Anglicanorum Coetibus describes:
    VI. § 1. Those who ministered as Anglican deacons, priests, or bishops, and who fulfill the requisites established by canon law[13] and are not impeded by irregularities or other impediments[14] may be accepted by the Ordinary as candidates for Holy Orders in the Catholic Church. In the case of married ministers, the norms established in the Encyclical Letter of Pope Paul VI Sacerdotalis coelibatus, n. 42[15] and in the Statement In June[16] are to be observed. Unmarried ministers must submit to the norm of clerical celibacy of CIC can. 277, §1.
    translated into Latin as:
    VI. § 1. Qui, Anglicana in Communione, diaconale, vel presbyterale aut episcopale exercuerunt ministerium atque qualitatibus gaudent a iure canonico expostulatis [13] et irregularitatibus ceterisque impedimentis non afficiuntur [14], ab Ordinario inter ad Sacros ordines candidatos in Ecclesia Catholica recipi possunt. De ministris autem coniugio adstrictis, normae sunt servandae Litterarum Encyclicarum Pauli PP. VI Sacerdotalis caelibatus n. 42 [15] atque Declarationis In June [16]. Ministri porro haud adstricti coniugio caelibatus clericalis normis ad mentem can. 277, § 1 tenentur
    (From http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus_lt.html )
    The emphasis today is not so much on renunciation of past heresy but on whole-hearted acceptance of the fullness of the Catholic faith subsisting in communion with the Holy See.
    Not unmindful of Vatican 2’s reminder that God can work among separated brethren, the rite for the ordination of those formerly in the Anglican ministry has also included since 1995 these words for use at the discretion of the ordaining bishop:
    Oratio ad gratias agends pro ministerio ab electo in Communione anglicana expleto. [Prayer giving thanks for the ministry of the candidate completed in the Anglican Communion]
    Deinde omnes surgunt. Episcopus, deposita mitra, stans manibus iunctis versum ad electum dicit: [Then all rise. The bishop, having set down his mitre, standing with hands joined and turned towards the candidate, says: ]
    N., the Holy Catholic Chutrch recognizes that not a few of the sacred actions of the Christioan religion as carried out in communities separated from her can truly engender a life of grace and rightly be described as providing access to the community of salvation. And so we pray:
    Et omnes, per aliquod temporis spatium, silentio orant. Deinde, manus extensis, Episcopus orat dicens: [And all pray in silence for a while, Then, with hands exrended, the Bishop pprays, saying:]
    Almighty Father, we give you thanks for the X years of faithful ministry of your servant N. in the Anglican Communion (vel: in the Church of England), whose fruitfulness for salvation has been derived from the very fulness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church. As your servant has been received into full communion and now seeks to be ordained to the presbyterate of the Catholic Church, we beseech you to bring to fruition that for which we now pray. Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Apostolicæ Curæ in 1896 famously condemned Anglican Orders (in 1896) as being “absolutely null and utterly void”. Rome has never re-0pened the question, nor, in the light of the Church of England’s steadfast refusal to heed the message message brought to her by successive Cardinals from successive Popes, is Rome likely to re-visit the question. She declines to either revoke Apostolicæ Curæ or to pronounce on the present state of Anglican Orders. But in the fullness of wisdom and charity, she recognizes the exercise of some sort of diaconal, presbyteral or episcopal ministry [its nature known precisely only to God] by those coming from the Anglican ministry to the fullness of priesthood in Communion with Peter.

    John U.K.

  27. Traductora says:

    Taking the term not the way it was meant, they probably can’t “fly” fast enough if they have any shred of orthodoxy left. I was part of a group singing at an Episcopalian service the other day, and they all brought in photos of their deceased pets because, well, they were celebrating All Saints Day, and aren’t all their pets saints? Just when you think they’ve reached the depths of ludicrousness, they do something that reveals that there actually is no bottom to their pit.

  28. robtbrown says:

    But in the fullness of wisdom and charity, she recognizes the exercise of some sort of diaconal, presbyteral or episcopal ministry [its nature known precisely only to God] by those coming from the Anglican ministry to the fullness of priesthood in Communion with Peter.

    John U.K.

    How can a someone not ordained exercise “some sort of diaconal, presbyteral, or episcopal ministry”? Some sort of ministry, yes, but not that of someone ordained.

  29. Dave N. says:

    Like several other posters I too am fearful of what will to most seem like endless foot-dragging on the Catholic side. On the other hand, I’m sure these bishops realize what they are getting themselves into and are in a sense pioneers in this process.

  30. Re repudiating false orders and the Anglican church: you could say that this act of the Anglican bishops is a de facto public renunciation. Since they have decided to enter the Catholic Church, they must already have renounced Anglicanism in their hearts; and I think it’s a safe bet they go into this knowing their Anglican orders are null and that they must be validly ordained if they intend to exercise the Catholic priesthood.

  31. Joe in Canada says:

    Some Anglican ministers have taken Apostolicae curae seriously and have sought to have their orders ‘regularized’ or ‘corrected’ by seeking ordination (or re-ordination) from Bishops whose orders were valid, e.g. Old Catholic or Orthodox Bishops. The TAC has spent some energy in this effort, notwithstanding the fact that most of its bishops are married and hence ineligible to be Bishops in the Ordinariate.
    Unfortunately but predictably there are many in the continuing Anglican movement who reject union with the Catholic Church – see eg http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html. The Archbishop Hepworth mentioned is t a former RC priest who left to get married, is divorced and remarried, and is now the Primate of the TAC.

  32. John UK says:

    robtbrown wrote:
    How can a someone not ordained exercise “some sort of diaconal, presbyteral, or episcopal ministry”? Some sort of ministry, yes, but not that of someone ordained.

    I was trying to explain to Anonymous Seminarian why, as he had asked, those coming into the Ordinariates having ministered as Anglican deacons, priests, or bishops [as I quoted more fully from the relevant clause of Anglicanorum Coetibus in my comment above] were not asked to repudiate their Anglican orders. AC describes such persons as Anglican deacons, priests or bishops: it does not define what it means by those words.
    The additional optional text, an introduction and prayer, for the rite of the ordination of such persons to the priesthood in the Catholic Church gives thanks for the X years of faithful ministry of [such persons] in the Anglican Communion (vel: in the Church of England) .

    My comment was an attempt to reconcile the use of these terms by the Holy See, in 2009 and 1995 respectively, with Leo XIII’s Bull on the state of Anglican Orders in 1896.
    Not being privy to the mind of the Holy See in 1995, 2009, or now, I can only weigh up the facts as I see them: the present policy of the Holy See appears to be to avoid any precise definition of the current state of Anglican Orders. She insists on absolute ordination for clergy wishing to be ordained to serve in the Ordinariate, she gives thanks for whatever way God may have used them for His ends in the past. Hence my qualification above …exercise of some sort of diaconal, presbyteral or episcopal ministry [its nature known precisely only to God] …

    I fear, Robert, that the only one who can truly answer your question How can a someone not ordained exercise “some sort of diaconal, presbyteral, or episcopal ministry”?
    is the Holy Father himself, for underlying it is the question of what sort of ordination have these incoming men undergone. Much water has flowed along both Tiber and Thames since 1896, as Fr.J.J.Hughes has ably demonstrated. I am not surprised that Rome declines to be boxed into a corner over the issue.

    John U.K.

  33. Prof. Basto says:

    Yes, it is good that danphunter has mentioned the Transalpine Redemptorists, because, while this is a diferent subject (not conversion from Anglicanism but the regularization of a small group that formed part of the wider Lefebvrist movement), the principle is the same.

    The PCED is there, its job as an organ of the Holy See is (apart from its liturgical role under Summorum Pontificum) to provide for the regularization of traditionalist communities not in full communion wishing to regularize their situation. The Redemptorists have long manifested their full submission to Rome, their wish for regularization, and, for some reason, the local bishop has been allowed to stall the process and the Transalpine Redemptorists’ request for regularization has not been met. Months and months passed and they are sill without faculties.

    Simili modo, the TAC is a group of Anglicans that has been wanting to cross the Tiber since before Anglicanorum coetibus came to light. They signed their submission to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And yet they are still waiting for their Ordinariate.

  34. mike cliffson says:

    I don’t understand what’s going on.
    But it’s hopeful.

  35. Miriam says:

    I have a question. Are the Anglican priests and bishops who are now retired but coming into the Holy Mother Church still going to receive their pensions?

    They did after all serve all those years.

  36. Miriam says:

    Just so you all know, commas are for little people. lol

  37. Anonymous Seminarian says:

    John UK,

    Thanks for the elaboration and exposition. And their letter, at least initially, may be worded intentionally so as to dull potential backlash; clearly, this public letter differs greatly from an actual act of reception. This style of writing, which I recall having seen in other Anglicans’ announcements, still troubles me. It seems best suited to an Eastern “Orthodox” Bishop. I just don’t understand how you can live for so much of your life under the impression that you were validly ordained, and then tacitly agree that you were not, in fact, ever ordained at all, and not metion this with honest sorrow and regret, even if guiltless.

    If, say, I was ‘ordained’ invalidly tomorrow, invalid for some reason unknown by me, and I went on to act as if I had been ordained–saying Mass, hearing confessions, etc.–and then I found out the truth–even for only a month of such ‘ministry’–I would feel terrible. Despite the fact that I did not know my ordination to be invalid, I would immediately be cognizant of all those sacraments I failed to perform, all those individuals who were, at least objectively, misled by me, all those sins unforgiven, all those intentions not applied, etc. The first thing I would want to do would be to announce an honest warning to all I had ‘ministered’ to that my ‘sacraments’ had never been valid. Now if, say, I were to go and get ordained by the “Orthodox”, and hear confessions, and confect the Eucharist, etc., and then recognize my need for true communion with the See of Rome, then, I think, I would write a letter similar to the one seen above. Even then, though, I think I would express remorse for even unknowingly misleading others to think that communion with Rome was unimportant.

    But perhaps I’m missing something here. I would very much like to think so. Perhaps this is more an emotional reaction on my part than a reasoned analysis.

  38. John UK says:

    Anonymous Seminarian,
    Even then, though, I think I would express remorse for even unknowingly misleading others to think that communion with Rome was unimportant
    I think you will find that those coming into the Ordinariates have laboured long and hard for re-union with Rome, going back to the days before 1896 and all that, and on through Caldey, Graymoor, Lord Halifax, the Abbe Portal, the Malines Conversations. For Anglo-Catholics, the goal was always corporate re-union: some could wait no longer, and were individually reconciled with the Holy See – Newman, Manning, and so on. There was even, very nearly, an Ordinariate (or rather Uniate) scheme in the 1660s! A study of Leo XIII’s encyclicals shows that he, too, sought to be the “Pope of Christian Unity” – he shocked his contemporaries by inviting prayers for “separated brethren” in England and Scotland.

    Returning to your main concerns. Another point you may wish to consider is that, as far back as the first Anglican Use parishes in the USA, and even beyond to Graymoor and Caldey, Anglican groups preparing to enter the Roman Church have not, as might be expected, been asked to desist and abandon practice of Anglican worship and sacraments in the period before their reception.
    Rome has a juridical mind, but a a very pastoral heart in practice.

    John U.K.

  39. The Astronomer says:

    Seems to be a little more rancor among the commenters over at Rorate on this issue. A few of the folks there seem to think these 5 Anglican bishops are ‘progressive Novus Ordo types’ just jumping on the bandwagon while the going is good.

  40. AnAmericanMother says:

    Astronomer, that would strike me as very odd. The Anglicans here in the US are about as far from NO as you can get. Most rejected the prayer book revisions. I would think it more likely that the Magic Circle crowd in Britain are terrified that the Anglicans will bring reverent liturgy, traditional music, and very orthodox Catholic practice.

  41. AnAmericanMother says:

    I have the word from the horse’s mouth here (former ECUSA priest who converted). Once a former Anglican is ordained, he is credited for purposes of pension, etc. from the day of his original ordination in the Anglican/Episcopal church). But I don’t know what happens to retired clerics. Presumably something will be worked out.

  42. John UK says:

    Sadly, Astronomer, the comments are nearly all the work of one Catholic who seems to want to use the T.A.C.’s entrance into the Ordinariate to further his own ends of outlawing the Novus Ordo He seems to know better than the Holy Father, who in Anglicanorum Coetibus specifically says:
    III. Liturgicis haud exclusis celebrationibus secundum Romanum Ritum, Ordinariatui facultas praebetur celebrandi sacram Eucharistiam ceteraque Sacramenta, Horarum Liturgiam aliasque liturgicas actiones iuxta libros liturgicos Anglicanae traditioni peculiares, ab Apostolica Sede adprobatos, ita ut intra Catholicam Ecclesiam vitales serventur spiritales, liturgicae pastoralesque Communionis Anglicanae traditiones, ad instar magni pretii doni, ad sodalium fidem alendam ac participandam
    (III. Without excluding liturgical celebrations according to the Roman Rite, the Ordinariate has the faculty to celebrate the Holy Eucharist and the other Sacraments, the Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical celebrations according to the liturgical books proper to the Anglican tradition, which have been approved by the Holy See, so as to maintain the liturgical, spiritual and pastoral traditions of the Anglican Communion within the Catholic Church, as a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared)

    In other words, priests of the Ordinariate are free to use the Ordinary or Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, as well as any Anglican “Use” approved by the Holy See.

    John U.K.

  43. Agapified says:

    I want to see NT Wright make the jump!

  44. Jayna says:

    Two words stuck out to me: “with regret.” He has, “with regret,” accepted the resignations of the bishops. Something about that phrasing annoys me.

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