This from a guy at a site that perpetually calls for dialogue and bashed Popes

wile-e-coyote_whatThe Wile E. Coyote of the catholic Left, Michael Sean Winters, recently wrote:

Cardinal Gerhard Müller thinks the pope should appoint a group of cardinals to debate the “dubia” submitted by four cardinals regarding Amoris Laetitia. Bad idea. The church is not a debating society. We had two synods. The pope is the pope. Does anyone else remember the days when it was conservatives who regularly invoked the maxim “Roma locuta est, causa finita est“?

This is hilarious.

This from a guy at a site that perpetually calls for dialogue.

This from a guy at a site that perpetually bashed John Paul and Benedict.

“The Pope is the Pope”.  “Roma locuta…”


Meanwhile, Card. Parolin is now calls for dialogue. Does he support Müller’s idea?

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. Kathleen10 says:

    I call for a canonical correction. Far better than a pointless dialogue with heretics. Besides, those guys can’t back up their points with anything substantial and they know it. Their schtick works for the dumb masses, not actual theologians.

  2. Benedict Joseph says:

    Plainly, simply, politely — there are other labels — they are disoriented.
    First I thought maybe he was attempting irony, humor.
    But they have proved themselves to be without humor for decades, unless it is at someone else’s expense.
    Utterly out of touch.

  3. Sacred1 says:

    I absolutely agree with Kathleen10. Did the Correction call for dialogue, or a correction? What do people envision is the point of this dialogue? Do people believe that both sides are approaching this dialogue with an open mind? Rather, this dialogue is likely like a typical dialogue proposed by those in power to those not in power: one-sided, unequal, and intended to dissipate and marginalize true opposition. It’s textbook Communist strategy.

  4. Cantor says:

    I’m all in favor of a dialog/debate. And to be certain there are no misunderstandings along the way, let’s be sure to hold it in the official language of the Latin Church.

  5. Lurker 59 says:

    The Problem is precisely that Roman hasn’t spoken. That is what the Dubia and Correctio Filialis are asking for.

    A debate is fine so long as it isn’t undertaken using Hegelian Dialectics.

  6. Athelstan says:

    Winters *does* have a kernel of a point – of sorts. At least against conservatives, if not traditionalists.

    It’s become increasingly evident that during the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, most conservatives got too comfortable with using only the rod of papal obedience to beat progressive enemies into submission.

    Now they see that this same rod can be used by…well, Michael Sean Winters. Who will, of course, drop it like a beehive or a Baltimore Catechism the nanosecond a conservative pope is elected. But that doesn’t detract from the lesson being learned about the limits of papal authority- which exists as a servant and defender of tradition, and not an end in itself.

  7. Pkmatt says:

    This is rich. Last week there was a report of some movie producer, in Italy who got His Holiness Francis to appear as himself. He also claimed that the Pope is God on earth. We really need direct supernatural intervention to correct so many errors of such nonsense, and more.

  8. Gerhard says:

    Wile E Coyote’s reasoning there is just sooooo dumb. It’s the product of the two synods which is sought to be clarified, because it is presented and interpreted ambiguously and in contradictory ways, not the synods themselves.

  9. MrTipsNZ says:

    Winters is displaying flim-flammery of the highest order here.

    The thing that gets the liberals, at the moment, is not so much the doctrine as the attempts to block poor pastoral applications of it. Winters knows full well that Catholic doctrine has not changed on divorce/remarriage/communion/homosexual acts.

    What he does know is that the Curia and the current Pope (who is on limited time by the way) are behaving like the Jack-Booted Weasels of Toad Hall™ and ignoring correct pastoral actions in those areas. It is this area of “debate” that Winters approves of. They are hoping that eventually Lex orandi, lex credendi ……

    Until the next Pope (from the ever fertile soil of Left Field®) comes along and sacks the entire Curia because Heaven demands it…

  10. Fr. Reader says:

    Yes, indeed.

  11. Amos says:

    “It’s become increasingly evident that during the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, most conservatives got too comfortable with using only the rod of papal obedience to beat progressive enemies into submission. ”

    Except when it comes to no salvation outside the Church and religious liberty, among other items.

  12. TonyO says:

    It becomes increasingly clear that during the pontificates of the last 5 popes, the methods in place for choosing the next rounds of bishops and cardinals has been gravely deficient, perhaps the single most severe procedural deficiency in the Church as an institution. Any good pope will be forced to dismiss from offices of authority far too many of the 2000+ bishops, the ones so gravely damaging the Church that they cannot in good conscience be left in place till they die / retire.

    An easy first step will be to promote all the bishops who firmly promoted the EF Mass, during the last 10 years (and more). And to simply dismiss all those archbishops and bishops who made life hard on priests trying to follow Summorum Pontificum. (Begin with “Cup” and end with “ich”. Can you guess who?) And retire out Kasper and his toadies, forcibly if necessary. (A simple public declaration “your resignation has been accepted” will be satisfactory.)

  13. Ave Crux says:

    I’m completely in agreement with Kathleen10 also.

    The Dubia were perfectly clear. Just answer Yes, or No to each one. What is there to add except more doublespeak and smokescreen for their game of subterfuge?

    It is frighteningly ironic in light of the Dubia that in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, immediately after Our Lord pronounced His condemnation of adultery and divorce and remarriage, He also gave the following admonition: “But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil…”

    Dialogue….? It’s exactly the trap satan has set for Catholics in the Modernist Church. We ought not to be so naive as to play his game; we lose every time.

    I’ve said it elsewhere. …that’s how satan brought about the Fall in the Garden of Eden: DIALOGUE

    It’s also how Ecumenical “dialogue” has brought about nothing except the gradual Protestantization of the Catholic Church.

  14. Benedict Joseph says:

    @Athelstan: I lived through the first ten years of John Paul as a very liberal Catholic, in deep disagreement with him on many issues but always shocked at his balanced approach to discipline. I was most shocked by what I perceived as his animosity toward the SSPX — and not at all by his encounter with Ernesto Cardenal (who, to my shame, I admired at the time). His manifest anger at Cardenal was simply honest, and what else were we to expect?
    No, in the total picture John Paul and Benedict bent over backwards to accommodate a nefarious element in the Church and very much to their detriment and ours.
    History will not treat them kindly in this regard.
    The current catastrophe is a direct result of their willingness to advance men who were not suitable for ecclesiastical office at all — let alone on the basis of fidelity to Holy Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the perennial Magisterium of the Church

  15. DavidR says:

    Well, it’s been pretty obvious for many years (centuries?) now that there is only one St. Paul of Tarsus.

  16. Cradle Catholic says:

    I didn’t know that we could dialog sbout the Ten Commandments. I recall that Thou shalt not commit adultery is one of them.

  17. mharden says:

    “Does anyone else remember the days when it was conservatives who regularly invoked the maxim “Roma locuta est, causa finita est“?”

    Big difference: during the reigns of JP2 and Benedict, they were criticized by Progressives for DEFENDING church teaching. Today, Francis is criticized by faithful Catholics for UNDERMINING church teaching.

  18. vandalia says:


    (What would St Thomas Aquinas Do?) Present the arguments of the dissenters far more clearly and logically than they could ever do themselves, and then destroy those arguments.

    Guess what? We won! The battle is over! Christ is Triumphant!

    Those on the Left want to focus on the use of reason. Fine. The game is rigged for us however. We have absolutely nothing to fear from the truth. They do. The other side has to resort to tricks and deceit to make their cases. Anytime anyone wants to debate, argue, or whatever, bring it on! The Truth is on OUR side! (In a very literal sense.)

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