@BishopBarron on Barron. @EricSammons on Barron. Wherein @FatherZ rants.

On 2 March Bp. Robert Barron issued an apologia at Word On Fire: “The Evangelical Path Of Word On Fire”.

He spends his first several hundred words talking about his own efforts to battle “beige” Catholicism through a “missionary spirit of Vatican II”. Then he puts his foot wrong, in my opinion: he starts up a cartoonish caricature of “traditionalist movement” with vocabulary like: fiercely, ferocity, anger, nostalgic (that damned chestnut… again?!?), antipathetic, radically, self-devouring, spitting-mad. His word choice calls to mind defamatory propaganda posters of yesteryear: unappealing characters marked with recognizable evil logos loom over all that is good and true.  The Beige are on the Left!  The Trads are on the Right!  We must battle the forces of evil to protect the Middle!

I like Scott Hahn’s description of traditionist leanings as mad trads, rad trads and glad trads.  The first two possible categories, which can overlap, are growing less and less prominent while the “glad trads”, with the influx of young people in the traditional movement, are growing.   Barron is a little behind the times.  That could be corrected if he would personally – not through surrogates – reach out to them instead of further marginalizing them with his obviously tilted vocabulary.

In a huge surprise move, Barron “nails his colors to the mast” of Word On Fire!  He thinks it is middle ground between the beige and the nostalgic self-devourers. He goes on to say that he has “tried to situate Word on Fire on the path of an evangelical Catholicism, the Catholicism of the saintly popes associated with Vatican II, a living Catholicism.”

The Olympian Middle.

Never mind that Summorum Pontificum assured that traditional expressions of liturgical worship are in the warp and weft of living Catholicism. Bp. Barron has never – to my knowledge – made a positive step in the direction of what is unquestionably the most marginalized group in the Church, a growing community primed and ready to be activated in the service of the New Evangelization, a group of determined, smart, well-catechized Catholics, giving good examples with stable marriages and large families: traditionalists.

Bp. Barron: It is impossible to have authentic, living Catholicism without that which Summorum Pontificum made possible.

Please correct me if I am wrong.  I mean that sincerely.  If Bp. Barron has celebrated a Pontifical Mass in the Traditional Roman Rite, I’d like to know.

If I were a bishop – thank you, Lord, I never will be – having seen what is going on in the traditional movement, I’d want to get involved with them FAST, no matter my own inclination and give them guidance, support and channel them at something: evangelization, works of mercy, etc.  This group is NOT going away.  An policy of hostility toward them is not going to go well in the future for priests and bishops.

MIND EXERCISE: Imagine for a moment.  Imagine a diocesan bishop shifting around his time and energy allocations toward the traditional side of things.  That doesn’t mean ignoring the other end of the spectrum… even though the traditional end has been ignored.  This isn’t about getting even.  Imagine, a bishop turning his energy to support the traditional movement in a diocese as a priority, rather than just as a begrudged concession, that occasional handful of dirt tossed in their direction.  Imagine.

Were some bishop to do that, I think people would absolutely explode into the traditional movement and embrace a warm and fervent outward expression of the Faith.  I think that bishop and his parish priests would wake up to find increasing numbers of people ready to go to the wall for what the bishop aims to do.

Am I wrong?

At Crisis Eric Sammons responded to Bp. Barron.

Sammons says, in a nutshell, that Barron doesn’t seem to understand who and what the traditional community is.  Worse, Barron has become part of the “beige” that he says he wanted to convert.  Hence, the title of his piece, “The Beiging of Bishop Barron”.

Sammons indicates, as I have pointed out, that the traditional movement indeed on the move.  It is growing and succeeding where it is given a little TLC.

Young priests are learning the traditional forms of sacred worship and the knock on effect is palpable.

I say that a demographic sinkhole is opening up under the Church in these USA.  The beige and the virtually un-catechized are going to drop through this hole never to be seen again in our churches.  Senior Catholics, often generous to the Church, will because of the steady tick tick tick of the “biological solution”, inexorable time, will dwindle in numbers and they will take their generosity with them.  Their un-churched, un-committed children and grandchildren will no longer pretend to embrace the Faith of their families.  They will be gone even on Christmas and Easter.   We will lose properties and social standing as a Church.

Why?  Barron rightly talks about “beige” Catholicism.  No question.  For a long time, that’s what the Church has presented: beige, a color so neutral that it is neither to be seen as interesting or uninteresting.   Sammons thinks that Barron’s attempts to do the same thing we have been doing for so long, but just do it a little better, is, in effect, to become the very beige one seeks to battle.

Sammons, my emphases:

There lies the irony of Barron’s negative views of traditionalism. Catholics are fed up with beige Catholicism, but they don’t want the half-measures that Barron recommends in response. Instead of replacing felt-banner 1970s liturgies with slightly less gauche ones, they want liturgies that give all the glory to God. Instead of substituting heretical teachings with orthodox yet oh-so culturally-relevant homilies, they want unadulterated, politically-incorrect, and unapologetic proclamations of the Faith. And instead of a half-hearted, cover-your-*ss response to the abuse scandal, they want a deep cleaning of the hierarchy, from top to bottom. They see that Catholicism as practiced since the 1970’s is far worse than beige, and Barron’s response itself has lost all color. Give us that ol’ time religion, they say.

It’s clear that Bishop Barron is far and away one of the most talented members of the American episcopate. Unfortunately, it’s also clear that he’s missing the new pulse beating within the Church: the strong and joyful beat of traditional Catholicism. Instead of considering it his enemy, he should recognize it as the fulfillment of what he’s been striving for all along.

I suggest that simply doing what we have been doing, but maybe a little better, isn’t going to slow the sink-hole’s expansion or pull from its depths those who fall in.  Repeating the failed strategies of the past, won’t work.  Furthermore, to continue down this same old path is what is “self-devouring”.


Something Sammon wrote struck me.

An improved beige is worse than beige.

Let’s add orthodox and traditional elements to the beige and it is worse than it was before, not better.  Why?  Because hearing some better preaching and seeing a few little hints at tradition here and there will make people think that they’ve got it all, when in fact they have neither one or the other.

I am reminded of the masses in the Inferno’s Canto 3, the fore-hell where the tepid run in a circle chasing a meaningless unmarked banner.   The tepid.

The sooner priests and bishops wake up to the potential of the traditionalist movement, the sooner we can battle the inevitable declines in the Church and seek a new way forward.  I am convinced that, as the various factions drop out of sight, we will be left with committed Catholics in several seemingly disparate groups, converts who come from Evangelical background, those who lean charismatic, and traditionalists.   These groups will, per necessity, find each other.  They will have conflicts and frictions, but something amazing could grow from their “mutual enrichment”, to borrow a phrase.

Summorum Pontificum was a gift to the whole Church, not just a slice.  It is what makes possible an authentic “living Catholicism”.   

If we are going to talk about “a living Catholicism”, then it is absolutely imperative that traditional forms of worship be integrated as widely as possible.  How is “Catholicism” even to be imagined it it is not rooted in tradition?  Summorum Pontificum reminds the world that you can’t have a living Church without tradition.

Further, when you trash tradition, you kill what you say you want.

Continue to marginalize traditionalists and you will only slow, harm and hobble any efforts of Evangelization.

Anytime His Excellency Bp. Barron wants to have a Pontifical Mass, I’ll happily contribute in any way I can, as a sacred minister, or by sitting in choir and praying for him, or … whatever.   Perhaps he will one day get interested in a positive way about a growing number of young Catholics who are his natural allies.

I’ll turn on the moderation queue and get ready to see thoughtful comments.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Hard-Identity Catholicism, Our Catholic Identity, SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM, The Coming Storm, The Drill, The future and our choices, The Olympian Middle, Wherein Fr. Z Rants and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.


  1. iPadre says:

    Why do they keep beating the dead horse. These are young families with lots of children. Go to their Masses, hang out with them at the coffee hours. Make friends with them. These young families only want beauty and truth. They never criticize, only encourage. The negative and nasty are far and few between. They make your love your vocation.

  2. Padre Pio Devotee says:

    Ugh. Though his intentions are good, he always goes back to Vatican II & the popes of the modern era (1960’s onward). There’s more than just VII & the moderns.
    He’s still on a Neo-Con kick which I think is dying out in general. It’s becoming increasingly the older liberals & young traders (with many of all ages fleeing from NO parishes & flocking to TLM/Tradition,etc…). The NO Neo-Con, reform of the reform of the reform, is dying out as they flee to tradition. The virus has expedited this shift dramatically. This transformation is happening organically.
    Just my nobody opinion, just an observation I’ve come to see happen from about 2009 onward.
    I agree he is behind the times. But let us pray and have hope for all bishops.

  3. ArthurH says:

    My wife and I were big fans of Fr Robert Barron— we have most of his early oeuvre put forth in defense of orthodox Catholicism; he became a great sadness for us as a very different man began appearing on the scene after his being made Bishop. With the exception of one very well done address to members of Congress a couple of years ago he has been beyond being just a disappointment to being part of the problem.

    I have read your comments and those of Sammons; your piece expands on his. Sammon’s description of Bp Barron matches exactly of what I saw happen to the behavior of that so-promising an orthodox Priest before his elevation. I see him now as simply part of the “deep church,” not a flattering image.

    We can only pray for his conversion back to the good, clear-speaking, dogma-oriented priest we so admired

  4. In re nostalgia:

    1. What is wrong with nostalgia for worthy things of the past that are no more? That said…

    2. I’m a Gen X-er. At the traditional Mass I attend, most of the congregation is younger than I am. That means they don’t have all the baggage that we Gen X-ers and Boomers have. It also means they have nothing to be nostalgic about, since they are too young to remember how things were before all the upheaval.

    3. Why doesn’t “nostalgia” ever stick to the Boomer priests who yearn for and try to re-impose the days of sit-ins, protest marches, felt banners, burlap vestments, earthenware chalices and singing “The Times They Are A-Changin’”?

    The old road is rapidly fading. Please get out of the new one if you can’t lend a hand. Because the times, in fact, are a-changin’.

  5. WVC says:

    I’m tired of lukewarm. I’m tired of half-measures. I’m tired of “more reverent” Novus Ordo Masses. I’m tired of “pastoral sensitivity. I’m tired of “not being an extremist.” I’m tired of the “new evangelism.” I’m tired of trying to find the “true spirit of Vatican II.” I’m tired of everyone who makes excuses, waffles, hedges, and shrugs. I’m tired of folks fretting over how to get Catholics “engaged.” I’m tired of the cowardice and the reluctance. I’m tired of it all.

    May the lukewarm be vomited out. May the seeking of the Glory of God be given its proper place. May Catholics embrace undiluted tradition. May every excuse-monger and peddler of the middle position be embarrassed and shamed into silence. And may we have more extremists like St. Francis and St. Thomas and St. Dominic and St. Gregory and a thousand other saints.

  6. James C says:

    Bishop Barron has time to participate in the Three Days of Darkness in LA and to write blurbs for Fr James Martin books and to do interfaith chats with Ben Shapiro.

    But he doesn’t seem to have time to engage those of us who hold onto the traditional faith, the same faith that built all the beautiful churches he shows in his “Catholicism” series (notice the visuals of that series are all pre-conciliar…).

    It’s perplexing to say the least.

  7. chantgirl says:

    There is a crisis of fatherhood in the church, starting with the hierarchy. A bishop describing his own spiritual children in this way is painful, and to be totally honest, abusive.

    Luke 11:11 comes to mind.

    Bishops, your children are spiritually starving, begging you for bread, and you persist in feeding them serpents and stones while you have rich treasures in your storehouse.

    This is why many Catholics have tuned out their bishops- they do not see their bishops as true fathers. The Catholic church is a dysfunctional family at the moment, and true healing can only occur when true fatherhood is restored.

  8. Nostalgia…

    Y’all should go to this post I wrote about Anthony Esolen’s book on Nostalgia.


  9. Geoffrey says:

    Based on the comments I have seen left for Bishop Barron on Twitter and on Facebook, I am not surprised that he has this opinion of traditionalists. For the most part, so do I.

    When Bishop Barron first posted this on Facebook the other day, I commented:

    “I love the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, as well as St John Paul the Great, Benedict XVI, and their authentic interpretation of Vatican II. I certainly do not mock the current Holy Father. However, I have very deep concerns over the tremendous confusion caused by the current pontificate — ‘Amoris Laetitia’ being but one glaring example. There are many, many others. For better or for worse, none of the terms used to label Catholics seem to fit me!”

    Pope Francis’ recent changes to the instituted ministries has led me to the conclusion that the “reform of the reform” of the Ordinary Form is no longer possible. I mourn this greatly, as I had made this my “mission” in the Church since the resignation of Benedict XVI.

    I concede that the Extraordinary Form is the future, simply by looking at the numbers, the results of the pandemic, etc. After 20 years of praying the Liturgy of the Hours, I have recently transitioned to the EF Divine Office.

    However, I still remain somewhat uneasy or cautious about going “full-on” Extraordinary Form because I am not a traditionalist. I have no interest in bashing Vatican II, St John Paul the Great, or St Paul VI. I have no interest in Fatima conspiracy theories or in bashing the Ordinary Form, which I still look at wistfully thinking “what could have been”.

    Only recently did I learn that Dr. Scott Hahn attended Mass in the Extraordinary Form. This gave me tremendous comfort, as I always saw him as 100% orthodox. I think we need more of this if the EF movement is to grow. Honey attracts more than vinegar.

  10. Cherub says:

    Decaffeinated Catholicism is tasteless.

  11. sibnao says:

    Bishop Barron represents a lot of people of good faith who simply do not know what they are talking about when they describe/critique EF communities and practices. It would be wonderful if he would be open enough to visit a couple of different parishes in a couple different places in the US, and attend the EF as it exists currently (not what was happening 25 years ago during the age of the “indult” or 70 years ago before the Council).

    Furthermore, it would be really good if Bp. Barron became FAMILIAR with the Latin Mass and those who love it, which means doing more than making one visit to the EF. After all, it would be absurd if he visited Swaziland for one day and then made pronouncements about it and what the people are like who live there.

    Finally, why must we as a group be judged by the worst among us? Are there no fierce or nostalgic people attending the OF? Do the OF people never lose their tempers, or say arrogant things? It is certainly true that “trads” have exhibited these vices at times. But you know, the “vibrant middle” folks’ eyes might not be entirely free of planks…

  12. LeeGilbert says:

    “I say that a demographic sinkhole is opening up under the Church in these USA. The beige and the virtually un-catechized are going to drop through this hole never to be seen again in our churches.” The Apostles, too, could plot the trend. They saw how things were going, and yet Jesus set his face toward Jerusalem. Ultimately, though, the Resurrection undid all extrapolation and it continues to do so.

    In the life of Henri Lacordaire, O.P. which I am reading, his biographer Joseph-Theophile Foisset writes, “During fifteen years [from 1820 to 1835], from one end of France to the other, everything had become a weapon against Christianity: the rostrum, the press, public instruction. Moreover, according to a remark by Lacordaire, in a calamity worthy of tears, no somewhat popular voice was raised in favor of Christ . . . .Consider the lot of the young generations placed between these two camps [ the Royalists and the Republicans]. They left their childhood only to despise or hate the Church, and as the summit of destruction, freedom-running ahead of them-veiled with its generous image the impiety that was devouring them. This is where France stood in 1834.

    “In the midst of generations prepared in this way, what a miracle it would be for religious truth to regain popularity! Well it did. This miracle took place before our very eyes. Never, I feel it, never will those who did not live before and after 1835 be able to imagine this passage from one period to another. “For us,” wrote Lacordaire,“who belonged to one or the other period, who saw the contempt, and who saw the honor-our eyes water with involuntary tears thinking about it- we kneel in thanksgiving before Him Who ” is incredible in His gifts.”

    This brings to mind a young man in his early twenties who just learned to serve the Latin Mass on Monday and has been serving all week long. 18 mos ago or so he was an atheist, but was converted to basic Christianity by a song on a Kanye West Album -a somewhat popular voice raised in favor of Christ, you could say. His father brought him to various non-denominational churches by way of encouraging him in his Christianity, but he decided, no, he wanted to be a Catholic, and brought his father into the Church with him! Could it be that he is among the first fruits of his generation?

    Could the Lord “who is incredible in His gifts” overthrow all extrapolation and convert that entire generation? What believing Catholic could say Him nay? He could, and if we ask Him, He will.

  13. Gab says:

    ”Instead of considering it his enemy, …”

    I don’t know that this is true, however it certainly seems that way when I think back to Bp Barron’s 2020 twitter comments about the traditional Mass and the people who attend, in his efforts to expound on Vat II and the NO Mass. Now if the Bishop is reacting to negative comments directed at him by a few, I can understand his reaction but he must bear in mind that those comments are from a few people and not the majority of ”Trad Caths”. Most of us (most as in the people I know, or have seen comments online, or have been acquainted with) just want to continue going to the Traditional Mass, invite others along when the opportunity presents itself, and pray for the expansion of the Mass.

    We are all on the same team surely? Sadly, the good Bishop’s latest article is divisive. Never mind, we must, all of us, continue to pray for our Bishops – all of them.

  14. mitdub says:

    The problem is that Barron and priests who model their ministerial approach on him think that the “winsome” and “always positive” approach to the faith and thinking that low hanging fruit alone is going to reform the church are ultimately foolish and cowardly. Jesus promised that the world would hate us if we followed him. Once the low hanging fruit is gone or itself has gone bad, it’s time to take on the culture. Pray for our bishops, pray for our priests, and pray that we ourselves may have the courage to break away from soft coloring and move toward bold colors and gold leaf.

  15. I’ve only been following about a half a dozen trustworthy Catholic web sites, but when I stray from those for whatever reason– well, I can understand why Bishop Barron might get a negative view of the traditionalist movement if it’s being shaped by some of what appears on the web. My guess is that he isn’t actually getting his feet wet with traditionalists by spending some time with those who are still on the rails, especially the younger ones who will be calling the shots in the Church in another generation or two. If his information is being filtered by others, as might be typical for even a busy auxiliary bishop without his own quasi-independent ministry, the filterers could easily make traditionalists look like wackos. “See, Bishop– look at this! Another far-right article arguing that… And then look at this one… ” And yes, if Bishop Barron has time to spend with Fr. James Martin books, he should make some time to learn the extraordinary form at least well enough to offer a Low Mass before he writes off traditionalism altogether.

    I don’t know… I’m getting to the point where I hardly even care what this, that, or the other bishop thinks or says. It’s looking as though the reform of the Church will come from the laity– when the laity who still matter start to do things on their own to cultivate authentic Catholicism one convert at a time and then demand better leadership. Phil Lawler has a discouraging analysis at Catholic Culture today on the subject of episcopal reform, so maybe that’s why I’m not feeling too optimistic right now.

  16. Chrisc says:

    Mr. Saucci, I feel like you. But there’s a healthy detachment that comes from not caring what some silly priest or bishop says.

    As to the crux of the article. I think the Pandemic has done a real number on people and their calculus. When even good Vatican 2 priests and bishops shuttered churches at the call of pseudoscience(they could have done eucharistic processions through neighborhoods and many other things) and govt overreach; and with families having experienced something of being underground as the domestic church in the wilderness, things have changed. With Cupich and Tobin picking bishops things will change more quickly.

    I would be guess we will see about 25% fewer catholics each sunday here in the US in the wake of Covid. But I would also wager the desire for traditionalism might double. We might be looking at an imitation of France very soon, where it seems half the faithful young people are traditionalists.

  17. WVC says:

    I think it silly to make excuses for a grown man, let alone a Bishop of the Holy Catholic Church. If he has received nasty comments online and has allowed those comments to color his understanding of a large and every-growing faithful segment of the laity as well as the ancient liturgy to which they are devoted and which formed the souls of thousands of saints and doctors of the Church – then such immature behavior is reprehensible.

    Just about everyone who has ventured to say anything on the internet has received nasty comments in return (just ask our host). Most folks who stop to give it half a thought realize that, at most, the internet commentary can only account for less than 10% of any given group of people, and that 10% would tend to be the more vocal, attention-seeking, and aggravating portion of that group. Most authentic men, especially in leadership positions, understand how important it is to actually meet people with various perspectives and spend time with them in order to better appreciate their values, concerns, and desires. Especially when those folks extend open invitations to come worship with them.

    Which I do the same. Please, Bishop Barron, feel free to come to our little Latin Mass (where the average age is probably in the 20s) and see the multiple families with over 8 children, the legion of altar boys, the smiling families socializing afterwards, and then see if you can call us a bunch of self-devouring Catholics. I’d at least like the dignity of being insulted to my face.

  18. JonPatrick says:

    I don’t know what happened to Bishop Baron. I have CD’s that he did as Father Barron on the seven deadly sins, that we used to listen to on long car trips. Good solid stuff. Maybe becoming bishop he felt he had to move more toward the beige center. I wish that instead of basing his opinion of trads from what he reads on the Internet and tweets, he would actually visit a traditional parish, attend mass there, and talk to the people over coffee, with all the many little ones running around in the background. I think he would come away with a different impression.

  19. Semper Gumby says:

    Catholics are traditional.

    “The grass withers, the flower wilts, but the word of God stands forever.” – Isaiah 40:8

    “This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.” Matthew 15:8-9

    “Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today; and the same for ever.” – Hebrews 13:8

    “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” 2 Thessalonians 2:14 (Douay-Rheims)

    Fr. Z’s post begins by providing a link to Bp. Barron’s March 2 statement. That statement features a photo of Barron, and his statement opens with this:

    “*I* commenced my writing career, roughly twenty-five years ago, as a critic of liberal Catholicism, which *I* referred to, in one of the first articles *I* ever published, as “beige Catholicism.””

    Another quote from Barron:

    “Word on Fire stands with Vatican II, John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis, the Catechism of 1992, and it takes as its mission the New Evangelization.”

    There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in WOF philosophy. Far more than the past six decades, far more than Barron’s blurb for a James Martin SJ book, the Three Days of Darkness in L.A. and Pachamama idols.

    From the “Word on Fire Institute” website:

    “Bishop Barron has spoken about his dream of evolving Word on Fire from a ministry into a movement. The first step of that process is to form a community of evangelists who share the same mission and desire to proclaim Christ to the culture using beauty, goodness, and truth.”

    At WOF a personality cult is developing, perhaps a New Religious Movement.

    “I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.” – 2 Timothy 4:1-5 (Douay-Rheims)

  20. Chrisc says:

    Perhaps the good bishop hasn’t really changed much. He previously attacked that which he wasn’t responsible for -the reception of V2. Now that he is responsible for the local Church, he continues to attack that which he has feels no responsibility toward.

  21. Alex says:

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen the Catholicism series. I want to trust fellow readers here that +Barron used to be a light, but are we sure ?

    I don’t know the reasons behind it, but he chose now Cd. Gregory as his spiritual director at Mundelein.

    I’m becoming increasingly convinced that there is no hermaneutic of continuity: there’re only Traditional Catholicism and Modernism.

  22. Lily says:

    I think all of you have it all wrong. Including Bishop Barron, Fr. Z, Eric Sammons…

    You are all stuck on the liturgy and on classifying people according to it. When, in reality, the only One who has the power to change anything, starting with ourselves, is the Holy Spirit.

    The real questions should be:

    1. *What* will help *whom* overcome personal obstacles to the Holy Spirit’s action in each soul?


    2. What is my personal role in helping this happen?

    [So glad you could let us know how wrong we are!]

  23. Michael Haz says:

    It’s politics. Auxiliary Bishop Baron is trying to get his Aux removed as the next step up the ladder. And to get recommended for that next step he has to comport his evangelism with the brand of evangelism preferred by the Star-Bellied Sneetches in the USCCB.

    Bishop Baron is slowly morphing into Joel Osteen as we watch.

  24. PostCatholic says:

    I don’t have a dog in the hunt, so to speak. But I would like to say that this was a very interesting read and I learned a lot from the post and comments.

  25. Pingback: EARLY VVEEKEND EDITION – Big Pulpit

  26. Semper Gumby says:

    Lily: Caution, you’re straying into Gnosticism.

  27. Pingback: The Beiging of Bishop Barron | Catholicism Pure & Simple

  28. phil19034 says:

    While I think the vast majority of negative traditional Catholics online tend to be those who do not attend a mass in full communion with Rome, I think one well know FSSP attendee has made things much worse for the Traditionalist movement.

    We lovers of Tradition, the TLM, and orthodoxy have to be perfect role models in the Church. Every time one of us is un-Christ like, we affirm the “pre-Vatican II Church was mean” stereotype that some have.

    Personally, I know some priests who started their time in seminary during Vatican II who loved the changes because they were being hazed in the Seminary.

    I even know a few priests who were in the seminary in the late 1990s and early 2000s who don’t like wearing cassocks because cassocks were used to haze him and his fellow seminarians. What would happen is, they were forced to wear a winter cassock year round with black pants year round. They were never allows to wear a summer cassock during warm weather, nor to wear shorts with high black socks (like Monsignor Charles Pope says he often does in warm weather).

    My point, we need to all be more like Dr Scott Hahn and Leah Darrow – examples of what good tradition is.

    BTW – to the people who bash the New Evangelization, please don’t. The New Evangelization isn’t about using media, or anything else. It’s simply about Evangelizing the baptized who have fallen away and/or don’t know Christ

    God Bless

  29. Arturo says:

    I have no problems with TLM. In fact I occasionally attend TLM in a parish that offers it every Sunday. My norm however is to attend Novus Ordo.

    I think the main problem why there are some reservations towards the people who identified themselves as belonging to the “TLM” community is their propensity to either view the Novus Ordo as invalid or inferior. This view is problematic.

    There is no other authority on earth that has the power to promulgate mass other than our Holy Mother Church. Holy Mother Church had decreed that the Novus Ordo Mass is the ordinary Mass for the universal church. Whatever natural deficiency other people might attribute to it, those has been washed away the moment the Church decreed it as the ordinary form of Mass for the universal church as it effectively acquired a supernatural character. If the Pope was granted the power to bind and lose, what more if the act was officially decreed by the Universal Church?

    For people who refuse to see the supernatural character of the Novus Ordo and continue to see it as either invalid or inferior, are they not perhaps committing the sin of disobedience? Or worse, are they unwittingly claiming to know better than the Church?

    If we are to assume that perhaps there are indeed questionable intent on the part of the people who wrote the Novus Ordo texts, those malicious intent had been expunged the moment the Church promulgated it as the official mass of the universal church precisely because at that moment it had acquired a supernatural character. Those texts are no longer ordinary texts. Those texts acquired the transformative power the moment it was decreed as the text proper to the Mass.

    I see the analogy on the wood of the cross. The cross which used to be a symbol of mockery and shame was transformed as the symbol of God’s love for humanity. From the symbol of shame it became the symbol of Christ’s salvific action.

    The pagans were Christianized by transforming and “baptizing” some of their pagan practices into symbol of Christ’s salvific action.

    Perhaps it is true that Bugnini is a freemason. Perhaps he has malicious intent when wrote the texts. But if we are to believe that God triumphs over evil, then it is not difficult to see that what Bugnini thought would be a tool to destroy the Church became the tool that actually advances the Kingdom of God here on earth. That there were liturgical abuses perhaps is another testament of its surprising efficacy. The devil have seen that he had been tricked yet again and lost so he is intent in corrupting some priests in committing liturgical abuses to delegitimize the Novus Ordo.

    If there are abuses, the answer is to eradicate those abuses and ensure the Novus Ordo is celebrated as intended by the Church. To then question the Novus Ordo as being either invalid or inferior is to question our Holy Mother Church whose call to obedience we are to heed to the point of even suspending our own judgment (unless of course it is a matter of doctrine and dogma).

  30. WVC says:

    @Arturo – For some insightful thoughts about the Novus Ordo as compared with the Traditional Latin Mass, I might recommend a host of excellent and accessible books written by devout and serious thinkers. “The Charitable Anathema” by Dietrich von Hildebrand comes immediately to mind, but there are many, many others, including some very recently published and some reviewed here by Fr. Z.

    Very few of the “traditionalists” I’ve encountered consider the Novus Ordo invalid. Inferior is a completely different thing. I would say one might reasonably draw the conclusion that anything Ordinary would be inferior to anything Extraordinary, and those are the exact terms Pope Benedict used to define the two liturgical forms. Glory & Praise Hymnal < Palestrina. Eucharistic Prayer II < The Roman Canon. Communion in the Hand when Standing < Communion on the Tongue while Kneeling. . . . etc. I don't think it's hard to see that the Novus Ordo is, in fact, inferior.

    God does triumph over evil, but He has also, historically, given us all the rope we ask for so as that we can hang ourselves. Your attempts to speculate on the mind of God are no more than speculation. How do you know He hasn't preserved the Latin Mass despite the many attempts to abrogate it and slander it so that it could renew the Church after the debacle foisted upon her by the terrible implementation of the Novus Ordo? How do you know the many attempts to persecute, oppress, and vilify those who love the Latin Mass (c.f. Bishop Barron) aren't proof that it is a powerful tool for good which Satan is directly attacking? Speculation is just speculation – meaningless in any serious conversation.

  31. Semper Gumby says:

    Anita Moore OP (lay), chantgirl, Michael Haz, sibnao, et al: Good points.

    There is some rumbling in the discussion here, not against the latest outburst from the empire-building WOF, but against those TLM rascals and in defense of the “New Evangelization” and the “Novus Ordo.”

    Okey-dokey, let’s take a closer look.

    Here is the Archdiocese of L.A., Bp. Barron’s stomping grounds, and its vision for the so-called “New Evangelization”:

    “Vision for the Office [an Office!] of New Evangelization”

    The Office of New Evangelization (ONE) exists to form Missionary Disciples of Jesus Christ by casting a vision of evangelization throughout the entire Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

    Each VIRTUAL experience meets you where you are at in your relationship with Jesus and challenges you to take your next step along the pathway.

    You are invited to travel this pathway by attending one or all three virtual experiences [an Experience!].

    Ananias Training

    …recognize the stages of another’s spiritual journey [Spiritual Journey!] through compassionate listening.

    Ananias Training is a 17-hour process structured over five zoom experiences [Zoom Experiences!] and an online learning platform, designed to form parishioners with no previous training in “the art of spiritual accompaniment [Art! Spiritual Accompaniment!].” The training will use Scripture reflections, video, and facilitated discussions to form “Ananiases.”

    Ananias Training will be offered through zoom sessions and an online learning platform [Learning Platform!]. Cost: $25 for online access and materials


    So to sum up, the New Evangelization is: “New”, “VIRTUAL”, “casting a vision.”

    Well, slap a “New” label on a high place to Chemosh and whaddya got? A high place to Chemosh.

    As for “casting a vision,” that probably has more to do with Wicca than Christianity- which would explain those firebowl dancers at the Three Days of Darkness in L.A.

    Speaking of the Three Days of Darkness, in which Bp. Barron has participated, the Archdiocese of L.A. recently offered helpful tips (with computer graphics!) on how to abuse children:

    “On March 16, 2018, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, during their annual Religious Education Congress, offered a workshop entitled “Transgender in Our Schools: One Bread, One Body.””


    Catholic or Chemosh, choose wisely.

  32. FrJohnDowney says:

    I see a lot of rancor and dissatisfaction with “Boomer Priests” and “Novus Ordo Clown Masses” as if they were the same thing. There seems to be a lot of the cancel culture creeping into the Catholic Church. Imagine if we went back to the good old days when an old German/Irish Pastor like me ruled with an iron fist and people liked it?

    The world has tried to beat the Catholic Church down for 2,000 years. Many would still love to see the Church go up in flames as they tear down statues of Saints, set fires to Cathedrals and write filthy graffiti on our buildings. They’ll mock Catholics who actually pray over dinner in public while they themselves have a Rosary dangling from their rear view mirror for “good luck” and some even have “San Malverde” as their patron “saint”.

    I sincerely encourage all of us to stop beating each other up over minor things and continue to adently live our faith in all that we say and do. This comes from a Priest of 40 years who’s been thrown off Social Media for telling the truth about the Muslim invasion of Europe and offended lefty Catholics as well as put up with a few people who say that I’m too liberal because I look at the people during Mass on occasion. I’ve been called a racist and too conservative and a liberal and empty headed a*@&#)! by more than one disgruntled person who was either drunk on alcohol or pride.

    I’d much rather see a wonderfully done Tridentine Mass as an example of which way to go than nasty remarks about people we’ve never met. I am very sure that the beauty of the Eucharist is far more convincing than a diatribe against “those people”.

  33. MWCooney says:

    Bishop Barron has joined other famous well-known persons with this, his “bitter clingers,” “deplorables,” “Neanderthals” moment.

  34. Patrick71 says:

    There is a rapidly growing traditional Catholic parish in Bishop Barron’s backyard in Los Angeles and he should pay a visit.

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