Bp. Slattery: ad orientem in the Cathedral of Tulsa

In the news bulletin of the Cathedral of Tulsa, there is news that His Excellency Most Reverend Edward Slattery

"…will celebrate the 10 a.m. Mass ad orientem (that is, facing the same direction as the people) during Advent and Christmastime.  

"I hope that this common posture of the Church at prayer will help you to experience the transcendent truth of the Mass in a new and timeless way," said Bishop Slattery, who explained that this posture is particularly apt for Advent when the Church celebrates Christ’s triple coming: his first in Bethlehem, his present coming at Mass and his future coming at the end of time. "I pray that this restored practice will help us understand that at Mass we participation in the authentic worship which Christ offers to His Father be being ‘obedient unto death.’" (Philippians 2:8)

 

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63 Responses to Bp. Slattery: ad orientem in the Cathedral of Tulsa

  1. JMM says:

    WAY TO GO!!!

  2. Domus Aurea says:

    Wonderful news!

  3. Tom Lanter says:

    Fr. Z,

    I would love to see Birmingham’s bishop lift his predecessor’s restriction on EWTN’s televised Mass so they could again face east. This was beautiful.

    JMJ
    Tom Lanter

  4. Johnny Domer says:

    Holy cow…he’s probably the first American bishop to do this in years outside of a Tridentine Mass…well, maybe Archbishop Burke or Bishop Bruskewitz did it, but I don’t remember hearing about it.

  5. Tim Ferguson says:

    Johhny, in the Twin Cities, since Bishop Carlson dedicated the church and altar in about 1988, the Archbishop has regularly celebrated the Novus Ordo ad orientem at St. Agnes parish. I think Cardinal George has done the same when visiting St. John Cantius, but can’t be sure.

    However, you’re right in noting the import of this event. This might well be the first time a diocesan bishop has introduced ad orientem worship at a church used to versus populo celebration.

  6. Deo Gratias :)…May more Bishops’ follow in his example

  7. Reading about such things in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati gives you the sensation that you’re learning of events taking place in a foreign country. They are practically unthinkable here. Even the pastors of the liturgically orthodox affinity parishes wouldn’t dream of celebrating ad orientem. We can hope for better days under Archbishop Schnurr, our new coadjutor.

  8. booklady says:

    It’s great news for Oklahoma Catholics! We’re less than 4% of the population but we’re not a silent majority.

    In Christ, booklady

  9. (And I’m not trying to be a “gloom spreader”; it just feels so foreign.)

  10. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    He’s introducing ad orientem at one Sunday Mass for (apparently) a limited period of time. But if you read the justificatory notice in the diocesan bulletin, its clear that Mass celebrated facing the people is responsible for nearly every evil in the modern Church from the end of evangelization to a failure to look to the future return of Christ. In view of this, his action seems a little pussilanimous, even irresponsible. ["pusillanimous"? That's silly.]

  11. Oremus says:

    Bravo! The bishop’s allowing Clear Creek, then inviting Don Marco to begin the Cenacle, and now this are all occasions for thanking God for this exceptional prelate!

  12. Nicknackpaddywack, give the Bishop a break. You have no idea what his long term plans might be.

    A recent renovation at the Tulsa Cathedral moved the cathedra off to the side…

    http://holyfamilycathedral.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html

    Celebration at the high altar appears to be possible now… and ad
    orientem celebration at the people’s altar doesn’t…

  13. Doug says:

    God bless His Excellency!

  14. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    Here is a picture of the interior Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow, completed in 2000 AD:

    http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xxc.ru%2Fenglish%2Fcomplex%2Fxxc%2Ffoto001.htm

    Please feel free to compare this effort with the cathedrals completed in recent years within the Catholic world and with (albeit noble) attempt by the bishop to recapture just a glimmer of the Roman Church\’s onetime splendor.

  15. Iakovos says:

    Nicknackpaddywack,

    Christ the Savior in Moscow is an exact replica (or at least a faithful reproduction) of a church that was located on that spot but torn down by the Communists. The Communists had intended to build the tallest building in the world in its place, topped with a gigantic statue of Lenin. They were unable to realize their dream because the ground was too marshy and unstable. Instead, a swimming pool was built in its place.

    After the fall of communism, the church was re-built with (at least part of) the money coming from the Russian government, to correct the travesty of the tearing down of the original church and to restore part of Russia’s patrimony. Interestingly, there were no problems with unstable/marshy land when they began to re-build the church.

    American cathedrals do not receive public money for renovation projects and are thus limited by the renovation/building projects they can afford.

  16. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    I think that the new Cathedral in Los Angeles CA was one of the most expensive ever built. The new one in Oakland was not cheap either. It is clear, however, that no matter how much money was spent on them they would remain the uninspired modernist piles that they are – just more expensive modernist piles. Diamond encrusted holy water bathing pools and such.

    Meanwhile, as Orthodox churches replicate their past glories, Catholics continue “renovation” projects (at great or little expense, it matters not) the purpose of which almost always seems to be remove some element of tradition. Brick by brick, as Fr. likes to say, we see some movements in the right direction, but even when the changes are correct they are usually far from a full-scale restoration. That’s the way it is.

  17. Bo the Okie says:

    Man, if we aren’t rebuilding Churches fast enough for you, Jesus must really make you mad, Nicknackpaddywack. I mean, what’s it been, 2000 years? He must know that you are impatient and obviously irritable…how rude of our Lord and Savior, no?

    As for me, with great joy I accept even this “noble gesture” of my Bishop, as you call it. It is funny that in a time some characterize as exceptionally dark, when it should be easier to see glimmers of light, some give God a pouty face and say “this is it, Lord?” God forbid heaven stink in your nostrils when you get there…

  18. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    Bo the Okie

    How generous of you to presume that I will make it to Heaven at all. I regarded that line of yours as a glimmer of light in an otherwise gloomy assessment of my character: and I had no problem seeing it!

    I was commenting on Catholics, not on God. How He relates to the slump of Rome, how could I know? God’s ways are a mystery if what religious people say is true.

    It is important to be realistic. The fact is that, even at this late date for the “reforms,” we are still building lousy new Cathedrals at tens and even hundreds of millions of dollars of expense, and that fact looms larger as a reality in the Catholic world than the improving position of an episcopal throne in one small Cathedral in Oklahoma. It is important for traditional Catholics not to get beyond themselves, they are still very much an embattled minority in a Church that – overall – stinks.

  19. Michael says:

    NICKNACKPADDYWACK
    Is your account of what is in the Bishop’s bulletin, I do not mean your comment, really so accurate that the Bishop himself would endorse it if asked, or it is your deliberate caricature of it? Please, believe me if possible: I am really interested.

    Having gone through your further comments, I find it difficult to figure out the essence of what you want to convey. Could you be more explicit?

  20. Fabrizio says:

    He’s introducing ad orientem at one Sunday Mass for (apparently) a limited period of time. But if you read the justificatory notice in the diocesan bulletin, its clear that Mass celebrated facing the people is responsible for nearly every evil in the modern Church from the end of evangelization to a failure to look to the future return of Christ. In view of this, his action seems a little pussilanimous, even irresponsible.

  21. Fabrizio says:

    the above tells us that we can stop looking for the winner of today’s “Sour Grapes Award”!! Congratulations! Although you forgot to mention the role played by the “masonic” liturgical reform of Pius XII, the shortening of the Cardinals’ Cappa Magna and probably the invention of DDT!

  22. Antonio says:

    W O N D E R F U L !!!!

  23. JBD says:

    I hear Bp. Slattery wears a clerical suit more often than his cassock, and he doesn’t ALWAYS wear french cuffs. Therefore his ad orientem stance seems a little pussilanimous, even irresponsible.

    Msgr. Perl’s statement in Rome a few months ago seems 100% accurate. Some people will never be happy, or at least rejoice in progress.

    This is a huge deal!!!

  24. Mark says:

    I live in the Bruskewitz diocese and I have some priests who want to celebrate ad orientem, but have given me the impression the Bishop Bruskewitz doesn’t want to upset the apple cart(go figure??!) so they are hesitant to go forward with their ad orientem posture beginning at Advent. Kudos to Bishop Slattery and I hope our bishop will follow that example and use that posture in his own cathedral, outside of the FSSP fucntions.

  25. Bo the Okie says:

    “one small Cathedral in Oklahoma”

    Ah, so its because it is a small Cathedral in a state no one cares about that makes you think it is “a little pussilanimous, even irresponsible.” I guess you are saying “if he did it in front of people that mattered, or in a place that mattered, but tucked away in a no-name Diocese as it is…”

    Your charity rings forth with every word you form!

    If I seem to judge your character as rather grim, let ME confess that the vice I have the least patience with these days is ingratitude. Its one thing to say that Christ deserves better, or that the Church does, or the Holy memory of the Saints, etc. But we certainly do not deserve anymore than we get, and we are certainly blessed by an undeserved grace to be a part of the Church, even if the liturgy is terrible. We should be strong in our support of the “reform of the reform” not because it pleases us, but because it is what is right and best to do for the glory of God. Refusing to see the little victories to me is obviously ingratitude, but it begins to list toward presumption when we act like things aren’t shaping up fast enough for our taste. We should be willing to be like Moses, to get the liturgy close to its promised land, and be happy enough to die at its border knowing that it will go forward. Think of all the faithful departed for the past 30 some years who did not even live to see one Bishop for one season in some backwater hick diocese say the Mass in the right and good direction? Being realistic is being realistic about ourselves, what we deserve, and what sort of time frame we can expect it in. And if expecting that much from you is being impatient on my part, I beg your pardon…

  26. Fabrizio says:

    JBD, you know, I have heard that His Excellency NEVER (never!)uses Latin to order pizza on the phone, and doesn’t use Gregorian (sollemn tone) to bless meals. If that isn’t proof that we’re doomed…

  27. Paul Stokell says:

    Think of all the faithful departed for the past 30 some years who did not even live to see one Bishop for one season in some backwater hick diocese say the Mass in the right and good direction?

    Are you sure you’re not from Louisville??

  28. Athelstane says:

    Deo Gratias!

    Brick by brick. More please.

  29. Terry says:

    Bo,

    For what it’s worth, Nazareth was a little place that didn’t matter either. :0)

    Our good Bishop is working on many fronts, the Benedictines at Clear Creek, workshops in Gregorian chant, establishing a second parish for the old Mass and now ad orientem and it comes at a personal cost. He gets constant backlash from many in the diocese for what he is doing.

    May Our Lord continue to bless him in his efforts.

  30. sacredosinaeternum says:

    Let us pray that many priests in the diocese of Tulsa will be encouraged by His Excellence to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice ad Dominum in their particular parishes. This could lead to a chain reaction…oremus…

  31. Maureen says:

    “Rejoice always” and “strengthen the brethren”. It’s easy to think that Jesus isn’t telling us this stuff, and certainly we are to “weep with those who weep”. But when we see signs of good stuff, we should point them out.

  32. Bernie says:

    Having friends in OKC and having visited Tulsa while my brief stay in Southern US, I rejoice with these news. His Excellency deserves every support and gratitude from OK Catholics. And it is not a small gesture. It is huge and I imagine the heat on this courageous pastor. God bless Bp Slatery.
    Bernie

  33. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    My goodness. I seem to have really hit a nerve.

    Someone raised a point about whether my characterization of the essay in the bulletin was accurate. At that point, I was trying deliberately to be a little bit funny – noting the contrast between the dire account of the versus populum practice that we now have and the very little that even this nice chap seems to be able to do about it, practically speaking. The notice does describe the widespread change in the priest’s orientation at Mass as “unfortunate” and contrary to constant tradition and as having been undertaken for the wrong reasons. It then goes on the describe the ill-effects of this alteration. These include an undue emphasis on the personality of the priests, leading to innovation and creativity, and making the worshipping community an enclosed circle, which – the article does indeed say – lead to Catholics losing a sense that they have a mission to evangelize society. The flourish I added about not looking to Christ and his future return was a plausible extrapolation from the run-up to these comments, when the author described the ad orientem practice as being rooted in a turning to the Lord, including in anticipation of his future coming. So, yes, my account and critique were hyperbolic, but not insane or deliberately manipulative, especially in view of the comic purposes of the remark.

    Fabrizio (isn’t that the name of the character that Al Paccino kills or vows to kill in Godfather II?) and maybe others seem to think I am some kind of loony extremist, ready to blame everyone from the Masons to Michael Jordan for the decline and fall of the Roman Church, to steal a phrase from Malachi Martin (hey, I guess that won’t help my case for sanity too much!). Not at all. I was simply playing with the essay’s argument. I don’t myself think that ad orientem posture – which I agree is a total bore and a let down – can be blamed in this way for all these tragedies. The collapse of Catholicism has many causes, and most of them right on the surface for the common sense person to see. We do not need to resort to conspiracy theories and esoteric forces – other than the Devil, naturally.

    Listen up kids! You people need to get a grip, man. You’re living a dream. You may be right in everything you hope for, but – contra BoBo the swamp dweller – you shouldn’t expect a “return to the promised land” even for your children or your children’s children. That isn’t sour grapes, it’s just what one might reasonably expect. You can’t or shouldn’t expect this to happen if a “promised land” means a return to the days when the average Catholic grew up with the Latin Mass and the practices of the Middle Ages and when preachers from big cities to tiny hovels proclaimed bravely about Heaven and Hell and non-Christians were all heathens. That just isn’t going to happen, it doesn’t fit with either the sociology or the theology of the Church as it reconstituted itself in the VII era. Of course, anything is possible in this crazy, mixed up world – than you Bogie. But what you guys are longing for with every fiber of your being just isn’t something reasonable to expect. Much more likely is that your religion of traditional Catholicism will settle down to being a kind of permanent, tolerated and (if you are lucky, even respected and influential) minority within the larger Church. Like Al Queda in Islam – important but not dominant and unlikely to really take over, despite all the hype. I mean there only an institutional analogy, of course, not to imply any parallel in doctrines or practices.

    That’s why it is important to remember that most Catholic youth who go through the system in this nation still don’t know their Baltimore Catechism, and believe, if anything, in a big nice God in the sky who ensures that everybody goes to Heaven, and they all go to lousy Catholic universities and so forth, if they go to Catholic schools, which is less and less likely. That’s the reality in 99% of the cases, even today. And those people are very much part of the future of your Church and will set the tone. Please don’t allow yourselves to become enclosed in a tiny internet echo chamber that greatly magnifies in your own mind the real world importance of these traditionalist “events.”

  34. Brian2 says:

    Lets lighten the mood shall we, care of Merle
    Okie from Muskogee:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idv-FGURn9s

  35. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    By the way, I meant to say that the loss of the ad orientem posture is a total bore and a let down. My copy editor is out. Apologies for these and other slips.

  36. Ohio Annie says:

    Wow, talk about “gloom spreader.” And let’s not engage in childish name-calling.

    Hey, my anti-spam word was VIVA IL PAPA. 8-)

  37. Bo the Okie says:

    Swamp dweller? I think you are at least 200 miles off on your insult.

    Either way, congrats on being a victim soul. Is that sort of like internet degrees now? You can just write in and they will award you an honory designation? You do it with such vigor, its really quite an example you leave for the rest of us!

    Seriously, echo chamber talk aside, this isn’t about being happy with ourselves…its about being happy even in small consolations. As a victim soul, you should know best that we should be happy even with the Crosses Christ gives us. So this whole utilitarian worry about how “effective” and “influential” we will be misses the point entirely. We are asked to be faithful. When Bishops are faithful in even small ways, we rejoice. When they are not, or the faithful are not, we pray. It is rather bothersome that those who rightfully defend the faith expressed in the Baltimore Catechism evidently missed the part about providence, where it surely says (I don’t have it currently in front of me) that God is in control, that there is no possibility of God losing in extra innings, and that HE gives us the strength to bear the Crosses He gives us.

    But you probably already learned that from the online institute of victim souls, right?

  38. Ohio Annie says:

    Bo, I like your words. I try to be faithful in my small way and rejoice always. God is in control all the time and is always good. Our Heavenly Father knows best!

    I’m just a convert and don’t know anything but people like you give me encouragement and increase my knowledge.

    Oh, this is the college of hermeneutical knowledge. Or something.

  39. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    Hmm. Bobo the rocky mountain dweller still seems to have trouble diving my tone. Maybe he doesn’t have an internet degree, but whatever sort he holds it evidently failed to include a course in reading for meaning.

    One of the things that I find interesting about the way religious people argue – and this is certainly not a phenomenon confined to the religious – is how they like to shift the ground whenever things get a little uncomfortable. The whole “brick by brick” analogy implies a long-term but visible restoration that many people who frequent this website seem to believe in; the evocation of arriving at the very threshold of “the promised land” also conjures this thought. I doubt many of the people involved in traditionalist Catholicism would remain in the movement if it was really hammered home to them that this is only an eschatoligical hope, not something we are likely to realize in our own life times or that of our great-grandchildren and their descendants. Yet when this is pointed out, the story changes to how this is only about doing our duty before God and being thankful for every little victory, no matter how small and hopeless it may seem and really is in the face of the reality of what the Church has become and is likely to remain. Well, which is it? And please, pick one story and stick to it.

    I greatly enjoyed the good-natured ribbing from the other commenters, especially when it appeared that they had been led astray in their projections concerning my views either by my miscommunications or by their own limited insight. A victim I did not feel myself. A soul I doubt I have.

  40. With the mess that’s happened for the past 40 years post Vatican II, this is very important as far as being a step in the right direction…Rejoice in the small things, for the small things often lead to bigger things to rejoice about.

  41. Bo the Okie says:

    ah, 200 miles off the other way now…perhaps part of the ribbing?

    So…are you trying to let on that you are merely a sociologist of religion that the abyss has peered back at a bit too much? Then why even read blogs such as these, let alone comment? Are we nice specimens for your study? Do you really think you are popping our balloons and doing the world a favor? Or do you secretly want someone to convince you? Reconvince you? I am no sociologist…so forgive me for “misreading” your tone…

    I to am a rather recent convert, three years in the making. Before that I was training to be a protestant minister, but converted in seminary. So these two contradictory stories you accuse me of carrying around may be aimed at someone else…I have not done anything Catholic “long-term,” and I think you over read my Moses analogy…I am not of the opinion that we are anywhere near the promised land, only that even making steps toward it should make us joyful. I am not worried about a restoration that is visible or not…the Church has endured many things, and it will continue to endure until Christ comes again, whatever the trials may be. So if you want me to choose “which is it,” I throw my chips in with the later, without discounting that people of good will have, and always have, and always will attempt to do what is right.

    As to your strange enjoyment of people misunderstanding you, I don’t know if you are simply a strange person or a rather sad individual who thinks that all there is left in life to enjoy is people’s miscues and errors. Either way, here is to hoping this conversation was of some profit to you in the true sense of the word. God bless whatever friends you may have…its sounds like you are a barrel of fun to be around, I’m sure…

  42. Bo the Okie says:

    And by the way, congrats and blessings on your conversion Ohio Anne. It is a joyful, confusing, and gracious ride the first few years, is it not?

  43. Chris Ryland says:

    The good Dominicans at St. Mary’s in New Haven (the founding church of the Knights of Columbus, where Fr. McGivney is buried) seem to have quietly decided to celebrate ad orientem, sometime in the past few months. Deo gratias.

  44. Ohio Annie says:

    Bo, it is great! My conversion happened weirdly but was worth the pain and waiting and abuse.

    Wow, you have quite a history too. I wish I had a website to give you to contact but I am a semi-luddite!

    I converted two years ago due to the influence of friends at my workplace. They all came to my first Communion and filled up an entire pew. God does truly protect the little people like me!

    I go to a fairly conservative NO parish run by an Order. It is great. I love the Church and her people.

  45. Bo the Okie says:

    maybe I’m totally off here, but Nicknackpaddywack, are you the “Roving Medievalist”?

  46. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    Hey, I really like this Bobo the Clown Dude! With the sharp eyes and instinct of a bird of prey, he circles singlemindedly round is target coming ever closer to the moment of capture. Even geniuses may have dyslexia; glitches in understanding can be overcome.

    Thank you for your questions, you are now hitting upon ones to which I myself have no answer.

    For centuries people converted to Catholicism or remained in it in part because of the universality of it. The common liturgical language and fidelity to one message, as well as because of the beauty of its tradition and the whole noble Catholic world that the Church helped to establish as an alternative to other cultures, including that of modernity. It if turns out that true Catholic religion has now been reduced to a kind of permanent remnant within the church as a whole, which no longer serves these functions or creates that world, that changes the equation somewhat, doesn’t it? Our view of the Catholic Church has to alter to fit this new reality. I’m not sure many of the people here have faced up to this. Not all of the old arguments still work. Now someone wanting me to become a traditionalist Catholic would have to convince me to adopt a kind of remnant mentality, and the world is filled with ten million examples of those kinds of sect. Many more well suited to it than Catholicism.

    regards my friend!

  47. Henry says:

    Nnpwk: With the sharp eyes and instinct of a bird of prey …

    But your own eyes and instinct don’t seem all that sharp. Speaking as one who has reason to know a remnant mentality when he sees one, the only traditionalist Catholic baggage I see in this thread is what you yourself have barged in with, for whatever reasons of your own. (Hmm … “a rather sad individual who thinks that all there is left in life to enjoy …”? Looking for pity more than understanding, are you?)

    This thread is about Bishop Edward Slattery who — speaking as a fairly traditional Catholic who knows who’s not one when he sees one who’s not one — is simply a faithful post Vatican II bishop taking a small step in support of Pope Benedict goal of authentic implementation of the Council’s liturgical recommendations.

    So why the middle ages bogey man game? Can’t find a better place to take your straw man ball where it fits better?

  48. Bo the Okie says:

    Clown is probably closer than bird…I’ve never seen birds as girth-ridden as myself, much less ones of prey…but nevertheless…

    As far as the appeal you speak of goes, or should I say the opposition of “universal” vs. “remnant” mentality, I can only think of St. Paul saying that he is quite prepared to be an Apostle in plenty and in wanting. The Church seems to me to be the same. We of course started out a remnant early on, and rejoiced. We accepted the help of good Emperor Constantine and rejoiced. We have since then enured many a state in between…so as far as what we are particularly suited to do, I would say we are infinetly suitable…

    So perhaps it changes the equation to particular people in particular places…but the tradition itself holds the entire spectrum dear…

    do not think too much of my singlemindedness…I am killing time at work, and perhaps I am enjoying myself in the process. again, if you profit as well, then good.

  49. Bo the Okie says:

    Ohio Annie,

    no worries about websites. The only addition to my story i would add because it pertains in some fashion (I’m trying to avoid my favorite hobby of talking about myself, and as you can see I am failing) is as follows:

    I…er…swam that great channel known as RCIA in the somewhat notorious Raleigh, NC diocese. The joke was that if you could stand Mass in that particularly diocese for a year, then you must really want to be Catholic. In fact, our entrance into the Church that Holy Vigil of Easter, had the hand of Cardinal Arinze in it, because our dear Priest tried to do a “joint” Easter vigil with the University protestants…two altars and all! Luckily, the Cardinal intervened, and we became Catholics nonetheless.

    This pertains to the overall arch of the post in saying that when I moved back home to Oklahoma, my wife and I were happy even in the small things they did better…like kneeling (!), and so, even though we now attend an FSSP parish in Tulsa, we are very grateful to quite a number of Priets here in Oklahoma, and especially for the good Bishop, for all the faithful things he has done…And by the way, the new Bishop of Raleigh sounds wonderful as well…I will never act like I know what traditional Catholics have gone through for the past 30 years, but if you have stayed the course this long, why get picky now? (that comment is not to anyone particular…just a general observance…)

  50. Lance says:

    As a Catholic in the diocese of Tulsa, it should be noted that Bishop Slattery has celebrated the Novus Ordo ad orientem in other parishes in this diocese from time to time. However, to my knowledge this is the first time he has done it in the Cathedral. Many of us here have been waiting a long time to see such a glorious change. Though I attend the FSSP parish, I will be going to the Cathedral this Sunday in support of our Bishop.

  51. Nicknackpaddywack says:

    Will you admit that there is this difference between the early church and today? The early church was itself a remnant, the catholic church today is the largest religion in the world with a remnant in it that keeps the faith of the fathers. Surely, that makes some difference.

    As far as the church being “the same,” I find that this belief requires a certain selective reading of history. Surely there is much continuity. On the other hand, it is hard to reconcile the Church’s past teaching about salvation outside the Church, for instance, to what the Church teaches officially today. Of course, I know one can save the appearances, so please save me the line about how this only ever meant that salvation was possible because of Christ and his Church. Honest people will admit that there is a problem here. And to many, probably most, observers it is quite obvious that the Catholic Church of today is not in every important respect what it was, say, one hundred years ago. This is not a medieval “bogey man”(now referring to Henry, whose post I couldn’t really understand) – all sorts of people would say this who have no particular connection to medievalism. And to some people, those differences might matter, they might go to what they regard as essentials. The differences pertain to central questions like salvation and other religions and the interpretation of Scripture, not only the Church’s official teaching on these matters but also the change in the view of the Catholic “man on the street.” And that change affects profoundly the life of every person who would be part of the institution.

    As a lightweight myself – in every respect of the word – I must now fly away. More a sparrow than an eagle, and should I fall to the earth I certainly wish no one’s pity and expect none from above, not even a notice.

  52. Bernie says:

    Nice gesture Lance. Hope other FSSP goers do the same. Good bishops must know that they have our support as we are part of the Militant Church not the boring complaining nostalgic church.
    Bernie

  53. Bo the Okie says:

    “Will you admit that there is this difference between the early church and today?”

    -Of course. My point was more about the analogy with Paul’s statement. I do however think that even today fits into such continuity. I guess my main point is that we have faced similar enough trials in form, if you will as we face today, even though the “accidents” of the trials are of course different an particular (scope, location, etc.). I’m sure french laity felt especially tried when the Revolution basically made a new church ex nihilo…and wondered how the Church of their fathers would cary on, but it did. I suppose we could list many examples of such trying times, and I think “outsiders” would say then what you claim they say now, that even 100 years ago things may have looked very different at different points in different places. I don’t disagree with that one bit. I disagree with the idea that theologically, that significantly alters the faith. If that seems like a stretch to you, I make no apologies, but must say I disagree with you completely. At the root of our discussion, let me close by saying I do not think it reason to adopt a particularly defeatist attitude. If you judge the situation differently, I suppose that all there is left to do is pray for you, and I do not mean that in a condenscending manner at all…

  54. Charivari Rob says:

    Iakovos – “American cathedrals do not receive public money for renovation projects and are thus limited by the renovation/building projects they can afford.”

    I may be wrong, but I believe some of our churches (Catholic and otherwise) in Boston have received public money in grants to support efforts for preservation of historic landmark structures and/or neighborhood preservation/anti-blight programs.

    I don’t recall offhand if our cathedral was one such site. The impression I have is that the funds were small grants, intended to defray a small part of the cost of preserving a structure, but definitely not used in interior restorations.

  55. Ohio Annie says:

    Bo, I like the cut of your jib (I’m originally from an oceany state). We have to work with what we have and be grateful always. I was studying to be an Anglican priest and God intervened in an interesting way. I wish we could do lunch!

    It’s sort of funny when somebody like me converts and discovers the Church isn’t what they thought it would be like. Gone is the good music, for instance, at least around here. And the sense of awe. But Christ is still waiting for us in the tabernacle, patiently waiting, drawing us closer.

  56. Bo the Okie says:

    Thanks again for the kind words, Annie. I’m trying to think of a good way to let you know an email address without showing it for the world to see…I’m interested to hear more about your “seminary” studies as well. let me know if you think of anything…

  57. Ohio Annie says:

    Bo, I decided I don’t care: _______________. So there, spammers and mean people, nyah. [I do. I removed it.]

  58. Angelo says:

    Karl Rahner & Concelebration Censured by Pope Pius XII

    In 1951 Rahner was forbidden to publish “Problems of contemporary Mariology,” a manuscript in which he “raised important questions about the nature of Tradition and the development of doctrine, particularly from an ecumenical point of view” (Dych, 11). In 1954 Pope Pius XII, in a public statement, took issue with what Rahner had written in an earlier 1949 article called “The many Masses and the one sacrifice.” In this article Rahner “raised a variety of questions about the relationship between the Masses celebrated by the Church and the sacrifice of the cross they make present, about the ‘fruits of the Mass’ and the value of multiplying the number of Masses, and about the possibility of concelebration for priests” (Dych, 11). After Pius’ statement, Rahner was forbidden to further discuss the issue of concelebration. Finally, in 1962, Rahner was told by his Jesuit superiors that everything he wrote had to be submitted to Rome for prior censorship. This special censorship was not lifted until May of 1963 (interestingly seven months after Vatican II began).

  59. Bo the Okie says:

    perhaps you have facebook? I’m not too hard to find…I don’t suppose there are tons of Bo’s from Oklahoma who went to Duke Divinity school and are now Catholic. That should work. Any other Tulsa Diocese people, feel free to give me a holler there…

  60. Matthew says:

    I’ve always maintained that westward celebration is clearly unrubrical, even when employing the Novus Ordo Missae, and at least implicitly anti-Christian to boot. Better to celebrate north facing as was (an is to some extent still done) by those Anglicans of the Puritan persuasion if you insist on being untraditional and choose to engage in so called versus populum celebration. To orient westward is to deny the second coming of Christ, is to orient one’s self with one’s back to the coming Christ and to symbolically block his coming from to his people. It simply can’t be justified. I should be very grateful to hear the honest opinion of anyone including Fr Z concerning this notion of mine.

  61. Ohio Annie says:

    Bo, I can’t get facebook. I will see if the public library lets me use it. I tried to give you an old email address from my now-defunct consulting business, but no go.

  62. Athelstan says:

    Now all we need is the Tridentine Mass in English and the Novus Ordo Mass taken from the Anglican Rite. Then everything will be just fine.

  63. His Excellency Most Reverend Edward Slattery celebrated the Solemn High Mass in the Gregorian form (i.e., the extraordinary form) at the Latin Mass Society’s training at Merton College in Oxford in August, 2007 within two months of the motu propio of July 7, 07. I attended the LMS training program that year. If I am not mistaken, he attended together with his Vicar General. It was well publicized in the Catholic Herald of that month.