I share you disdain for the NCR father. It is simply an arm of the international pro-abortion movement masquerading as a “catholic” newspaper.
A Catholic prediction of my own is that Archbishop Nicholas will not be made a cardinal. I personally hope that he is removed as a bishop, I have no time for him.
Another prediction: Kim Jong Un will still be the only North Korean in need of a “husky”-size uniform. Only they won’t call it being “husky,” but putting the “great” in “Great Successor.”
Reuters actually reported that the KJU hairdo is “popular” in Pyongyang, though if he sported a purple “faux-hawk” tomorrow, it’d probably be the safe thing to follow suit.
… but the (continued) delay will cause yet another group of priests to defect from the Society and reconcile with Rome, creating another traditionalist order or institute.
“Benedict XVI will do something significant to support the Extraordinary Form …”
That 4th one from the bottom – he could pack up today!
What a destruction he’s been to date.
All Americans need to WAKE UP and re-discover their faith. It’s not love of money we need more of; it’s love of God.
“NCR will, finally, be officially reprimanded for using the word ‘Catholic.'”
Have they not been already? I had thought that a former ordinary had given them a public reprimand decades ago. Reprimands are meaningless if they aren’t backed with action. When NCR’s ordinary excommunicates the paper’s board, anyone who works for the paper, and anyone who contributes money to it whether by subscribing or buying advertising, that will be a reprimand. They must be rubbing their hands with glee, therefore, that Bp. Finn, their current ordinary, has compromised his moral authority and done great harm to his ability to be the ordinary who cleans house. It’s just my two cents, but the bishops shouldn’t confuse speaking with acting. Speaking is much preferred to silence, of course, but acting is what counts.
I hate to offer such a prediction so I will merely say that I would not add Father Z’s last one to my list.
I am also loathe to exclude from my list his prediction about the President’s chances for a second term, but I wouldn’t bet the ranch on it.
I predict that Jon Huntsman will emerge as the surprise GOP nominee for president.
I predict that Marco Rubio will be the GOP’s vice presidential candidate.
I predict that Archbishop Dolan will not yet have donned the sacred purple by year’s end.
I predict that many more Anglican communities will swim the Tiber and that we’ll hear something about certain Lutheran and even Orthodox communities looking to cross over as well.
I predict that the bishops in the SSPX will either consecrate another bishop or assume for themselves some other equally shocking pretension using the “crisis in the Church” as their justification.
I predict that the SSPX will experience a major split or defection.
I predict that interest in the Extraordinary Form of Mass will not see much growth, if any.
I predict that there will be a major disruption within the British Royal Family in the year of the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee; perhaps the death of the Duke of Edinburgh, perhaps much worse.
I predict that something will go wrong with the power grid.
I predict that the preponderant ignorance of history will morph into a complete moronification of history, with many coming to believe in such absurd things as “ancient aliens” and their alleged role in engineering the human race (yes, I really believe we will have become that stupid by the year’s end).
I predict that reality shows such as “Ghost Hunters”, “Deadliest Catch”, “Pawn Stars”, “American Pickers”, and the like will at least double, and that they will have as their subjects the least interesting jobs imaginable (if they can make a hit show about garbage pickers, for heavens sake, they can make a hit show about anything).
NB: I offer all of these things as predictions, not as desires or wishes.
“Benedict XVI will do something significant to support the Extraordinary Form.” I’ll buy a bottle of champagne to open on that predicted day. Many of us would be ever so happy.
Re: #1, Iran announced that it has produced a domestic nuclear fuel rod, then followed-up by testing its first missile capable of striking Israel. Is it intentionally trying to provoke Israel?
Ahmadinejad has a “mystical” vision at the U.N., thinks he will help usher the Mahdi (an end-times Shiite religious figure, which will help Iran wipe Israel “off the face of the earth” etc., to include the “Great Satan” America).
But I would submit that Iran’s Supreme Leader is even crazier.
This is a pandora’s box because when Israel took out Iraq’s nuclear sites, and, more recently, Syria’s, it knew they would not be crazy enough to mount serious resistance (or retaliation); do they know this about Iran?
Btw: I feel very sorry for the people of Iran. Sans the Crazies (Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah, as well as the Revolutionary Guards and Quds Force) Iran could be another Turkey. It has incredible Universities (both a good and bad thing, since in the hands of the Crazies it is producing scientists capable of developing WMDs), an ancient culture with many fine attributes, great artists and architects, etc.
Without the Crazies Iran could be a friend of the world.
What is ironic in all of this, is that with the Shah (a Monarch) Iran was a friend of the world, but with “democracy” it fell into crazy-land! (I hope the same fate doesn’t befall Libya and Egypt).
“I predict that interest in the Extraordinary Form of Mass will not see much growth, if any.”
May I ask why you predict this? Just curious. Fr. Z’s prediction is that the Holy Father will do something supportive. I think it could go either way. Are you thinking perhaps that with the new translation, the “reform of the reform” has been kick-started again, and will therefore take some of the steam out of the movement toward EF Mass growth? Again, just curious. I always enjoy reading your take on this.
No science behind it apart from my own obervations over the years. I think a world ever more absorbed in dramatic shifts and upheavals, economic and otherwise, will find itself increasingly less interested in splitting liturgical hairs, in general. We who follow these things are something of a rare breed, and we hardly reflect the interests and priorities of the great Mass of Catholics, worldwide.
In my own experience, the Tridentine Mass crowd, in general, is not very evangelical but rather inwardly focused, so I don’t think there will be any sort of a major outreach in 2012 that will attempt to address what seems to me to be a stagnation. I can see that in my own neck of the woods that the EF “community” has shrunken over the last decade, not grown. As nostaglic traditionalists become fewer and fewer as they depart the surley bonds of Earth, I don’t sense that they are being replaced by young people who insist upon the pre-Conciliar forms. And young people cannot, of course, be nostalgic for something they never knew.
I think most Catholics who treasure the Church’s heritage: the Latin language, our sacred music, art, and architecture, &c, can find themselves embracing those things without at the same time feeling a need to return to the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Those who, on the contrary, positively insist upon the ’62 Mass and nothing else will typically have other agendas, as well, that cause that insistence, and will find their way to the SSPX, buying into the Society’s rhetorics and polemics.
“Fr. Z’s prediction is that the Holy Father will do something supportive.”
Father Z’s sense of these things is surely more astute than my own. Nevertheless, I personally don’t see it.
The Pope has not thus far shown and I am sure will continue to show no interest in personally endorsing a universal revival of the pre-Conciliar rites by celebrating the Tridentine Mass publicly. I really don’t think the Holy Father is interested in giving traditionalists that “A-ha!” moment they’re hoping for, by celebrating the “EF”, himself. I think the Holy Father is committed to a reform of the reform, not to a retreat from the reform. Too many traditionalists confuse the latter for the former, I think.
It seems clear enough to me, however, that the Pope has freed the Tridentine form of Mass from its fetters partly as a pastoral gesture in order that those few remaining who demand it may have it without having to turn to the SSPX, and also that the celebration of the Tridentine Mass may be seen a bit more so that its witness should serve as a good example for the rest of the Church of the dignified manner in which the Roman Rite in any form ought to be celebrated. I’m sure the Pope is not hoping that the “EF” will supplant or even enjoy co-equal status with the “OF” therefore I do not think he will do anything to actively “promote” it. Again he hopes to reform the reform, not to abandon the reform.
I’ve used the steam railroad comparison before. Churches that offer the “EF” remind me of tourist railroads in the United States that have acquired (or retained) steam locomotives, both to delight nostalgics and to draw in ridership who simply think a ride on a steam train would be neat for a change (but who don’t necessarily need to see steam universally replace modern diesel and electric motive power).
Steam locomotives are a rare delight to see in action…just like Tridentine Masses…but there isn’t a whole world of people out there demanding more of them. It’s great that there are a number of them left, so that we can still see what railroads were once like, but if they disappeared one day (and they will), most people would not miss them, especially if something happened to replace the diesel that was just as magnificent as the steam engine used to be, but more suited to contemporary use.
I don’t think the movement to restore the Tridentine Mass is growing, to be honest. I think and hope that the movement to restore dignity and mystery to Catholic worship is growing, yes, but I don’t think that movement necessarily equates the 1962 Missal’s resurgence with the attainment of those salutory goals.
So long as B16 remains in place then as far as I can see the world will be a better place. He is a man of grace whose service to the church runs deep and true. I for one pray he will be able to serve for many years to come. His influence on the church could outstrip that of any Pope since the Middle Ages if God grants him the time, health and energy. (Yes, I am a fan, in case that wasn’t obvious).
As much as I hate to disagree with Fr. Z, I hold to my prediction that the Cubs WILL win the World Series.
As Fr. says about his first prediction, one of these years I’ll be right.
I used to say some of the same things twenty years ago about devotees of the Traditional Mass. Most of them are dead by now, and when I look out from the sanctuary at the faithful who attend the older form of Mass, I see a lot of young people, and young families.
I don’t think it’s just nostalgia. Neither do they.
manwithblackhat: “. . . when I look out from the sanctuary at the faithful who attend the older form of Mass, I see a lot of young people, and young families. I don’t think it’s just nostalgia. Neither do they.”
I couldn’t agree more. Four years ago I had never been to a traditional Latin Mass and today the EF is the only one I attend (unless of course the OF is the only option). Our children still at home (6 out of 10) feel the same way and what I see in our community is more and more families coming from the OF and falling in love with the EF.
Several of us just yesterday were discussing how we are working with our pastors to have our confirmation aged children be confirmed in the EF. They are open to it and we are thrilled.
Centristian is right, “young people cannot, of course, be nostalgic for something they never knew”. I never knew it either. I am a convert of 28 years but what my husband and I and our children know is the beauty and reverence of the EF is something that grabs you and doesn’t let go. We love our priest (a young priest of 31 that grew up in my parish) and we are SO very grateful for the availability of the EF in our area (Lancaster, PA)
I’m almost embarrassed to admit that I’ve been to exactly 2 EF Masses in my lifetime, except to say that one New Year’s resolution of mine is to go for 3… and then some!
I think Centristian’s comments carry lots of merit. One way to see the extraordinary form is as a counterbalance to the excesses of the left. It probably flourishes most where the excesses of the left are most excessive. If the reform of the reform is successful, though, the extraordinary form will disappear on its own because it will have served its purpose– no one will have to force it out of existence. I agree that the extraordinary form attracts many young people, but that may be simply because the typical ordinary form Mass in their own parish is too far to the left. Many of the younger people (and the older people too!) might well go for a reverent, orthodox ordinary form Mass if it were available to them, and they would not immediately dismiss the possibility of “reverent, orthodox, ordinary form” as an impossibility.
I like to think of everything we do as a vote of sorts. Many of the people who attend extraordinary form Masses would write-in “reverent ordinary form Mass with significant Latin” as a candidate if they could, but given the choice of “clown Mass” or “extraordinary form” with no write-in Mass, they gladly vote “extraordinary form” but perhaps with some reservations.
First, and most obviously, Alabama will beat LSU for the national championship on Jan. 9.
L’Osservatore Romano has funnies? I must have let my subscription lapse at the wrong time. Add a decent sports section and I’m back, even with the oddball stories about The Simpsons being Catholic.
As for the presidential election, Obama is working hard to lose it, but the Republicans seem to be showing more of the Protestant work ethic. It will not be easy, but I see no reason to doubt that they will blow it and lose to Obama. For their incompetent campaign they will win the 2013 Nobel Peace Prize.
I predict that the Holy Spirit will have the last word on Vatican 2. This may or may not be in 2012 and may or may not be to my liking. But if not I suppose I can always find some sainted Pope and start my own society in his name.
“I don’t think it’s just nostalgia. Neither do they.”
Allow me to clarify: I do not believe that most people who attend the Tridentine Mass exclusively are nostalgics. What I meant to say is that the nostalgics are dying off and that they won’t be replaced by new nostalgics, of course.
?The Synod on New Evangelization will be held; then everyone will go home.
Father Z Might I ask what you mean by this? Are you saying the N.E. is bollocks and that it’s just another “theme of the year” and will utterly fail in the Church, or is it that the event will pass, and people will take the knowledge home with them to their countries, and be influences pastorally to put things into action (e.g. practically, pastoral letters via bishops conferences [yuck!]…)
From my seat in the pew at the Sunday EF, there are loads of children in front of me and even more behind. Yes, there are oldsters like me who remember before the Novus Ordo, but the bulk of the congregation is young people and lots of families. We used to be the only game in two dioceses and attracted attendance from up to 70 miles away. There are about a half dozen more Sunday EFs in the area now and our congregation took a hit, but we are growing again and so are the other EFs, as I hear. Nothing spectacular, just stable and growing.
Centristian, thank you for your EF insight on Fr. Z’s comments from your experience and observations. It is one of the more meatier posts here. But as a young person who attends some EF’s and has had involvement in the last year and a 1/2 with some more reverent Catholic kids, let me add my commentary on your posting. Some aggrement, and some disagreement.
“In my own experience, the Tridentine Mass crowd, in general, is not very evangelical but rather inwardly focused …”
That would be true. I don’t see that charism being overly expressed by the collective of people of the EFs I’ve gone too. We don’t tend to shout it on the rooftops, however my local Una Voce chapter is trying to do their best in promoting their masses with high quality legal size posters at a number of major parishes in the city and use of thier blogs and Facebook(TM) to get the word out with social media. We are definitely “charismatic” though in the sense we are proud of going and do try to explain to people who will listen.
“…. As nostaglic traditionalists become fewer and fewer as they depart the surley bonds of Earth, I don’t sense that they are being replaced by young people who insist upon the pre-Conciliar forms. And young people cannot, of course, be nostalgic for something they never knew.
Sigh, yes sadly every elder that remembers the EF and dies is one less that adds to the number of the communities and weakens their strength when it comes to dealing with authorities. However, I disagree with you to an extent in the statement that the young people don’t want to come to the EF out of nostalgia. Literally, yes its true. However, avoiding the EF altogether I disagree. I am seeing some families come to the EFs held in my city. We’re talking parents and young children under 13 and that exposure at that age is Critical. furthermore the server group that does these masses (shared amongst lay initiatives and our city’s Oratory/more tradtitional seminary vs. the regular liberal one) are all under 35 years, as young as 7 years old. I think that what is driving our young people to these masses is as one commenter mentioned here, Andrew Saucci:
“I agree that the extraordinary form attracts many young people, but that may be simply because the typical ordinary form Mass in their own parish is too far to the left. Many of the younger people (and the older people too!) might well go for a reverent, orthodox ordinary form Mass if it were available to them, and they would not immediately dismiss the possibility of “reverent, orthodox, ordinary form” as an impossibility.”
Thus, perhaps then, what we need to do for the last generation (60’s-80’s) and mine (late 80’s – millenial) is to market the EF in a different Way. Show the youth how the EF is in line with TRUE Catholic teaching, which would also require showing them how they are being poorly Catechised in their separate/mainstream Catholic schools and Masses. Basically, many of them should be able to see with the right education, that they have been ROBBED of true authentic Catholic exmaple and teaching by their teachers, priests, even their nominally Catholic/CINO/C&E Catholics of what their faith is truly about and that they will find good loyal and faithful priests, teachers, and role models (adults) here. Also tell the boys that this is a “boys-only” club with no girls serving and demands much more than OF serving, and so will help garner attention there (general consensus is that young boys love boys only activities. When girls enter the mix, young boys decline and leave, as seen in some posts and commmentary when the controversial US dioceses switched to all boys on this blog). So maybe this is the way to show the moderate Catholic youth of my generation what value is contained in the EF Masses. Offer them not the mush, but the seasoned steak! Finally, the new crop of JPII/B16 seminarians MUST learn either self-taught or in seminary how to do this and team up together with existing TLM organizations and EF-friendly dioceses, and not stay in one central place (a.k.a. ghettoization) in their cities or towns but move around a little, and get the word (and the practice) out there in other areas, so that curious people come, and perhaps they stay with the EF. Once that happens, the more moderate or liberal bishops will get the message (either financially when the $ contributions from Liberal theolology parishes 1-23 are dropping and Traddie parishes 24-28 of the diocese are growing, or from repeated requests from parishoners in the diocese) and will need to tow the line else lose their Churches to financial disclosure, or get the ire of the newly won and larger traditional Catholic crowd.
Have the Trad Communities in your area Centristian considered those ideas? Are you seeing more average Catholics in your NO communities liking the New Translation and saying, “yeah I’ll stay here?”
Among the predictions is what seems like news to me, “I will have at least one book ready for publication.”
Like someone else, I wonder if this has to do with the dissertation, or if it is about “save the liturgy, save the Church”. Either way, good to hear.
The one about the Pontifical Council for Migrants publishing a document against passports made me LOL, but I think they will now have better vetting for whitepapers.
I predict Medjugorje will be ruled by Pope Benedict as constat de non supernaturalitate, during the latter part of the year.
That the new office for liturgical art and architecture will issue a document with force of law regarding Church architecture and then start preparing one on liturgical music.
That the UK Ordinariate will get a main church.
That Fr Robert Barron will not be made a bishop, but not for lack of being asked
That WDTPRS blog will still exist at the end of 2012
That a major Catholic university in the US will cease to identify itself as Catholic
That two more small, scrappy faithfully Catholic colleges or universities will spring up in its place
Someone will found a new habit wearing religious order to do in greater freedom the kinds of charitable service that it will become increasingly impossible to do through organizations subject to government regulation, there will also be lay innovation in doing charitable service in strict conformity with Catholic teaching
Fr. Z: * Israel will attack Iran (one of these years I’ll be right about this).
TNCath: It’s only a matter of time. And we will sending troops back to the Middle East.
* NCR will name an old, disgruntled, liberal woman religious (or maybe a few) as person of the year.
TNCath: Semper idem.
* H.E. Most Rev. Robert Finn will still be Bishop in Kansas-City-St. Joseph.
TNCath: Only after going through much persecution.
* Egypt will become an Islamic Republic.
TNCath: It’s well on its way.
* Benedict XVI will do something significant to support the Extraordinary Form.
TNCath: While he may not actually celebrate the EF, he may be present for a celebration of it and deliver an address at it.
* The Pontifical Council for Migrants and Itinerant Peoples will issue a document saying that passports should no longer be required.
TNCath: And no one will pay the least bit of attention.
* Kim Jong Un will no longer be permitted to cut his own hair.
TNCath: Will they confiscate his bowl?
* Massive election fraud will confuse the vote on the pro-marriage amendment for the Constitution of Minnesota.
TNCath: It won’t be the first time.
* The Synod on New Evangelization will be held; then everyone will go home.
TNCath: And, like the Apostolic Visitation for Women Religious in the U.S., nothing will substantially change.
* Women will not be ordained deacons. (Good for 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016…)
TNCath: And Fr. Richard McBrien will continue to raise the issue.
* L’Osservatore Romano will start publishing a singles section. (They already have the funnies everyday.)
TNCath: A singles section will only supercede the humor of the funnies.
* I will have at least one book ready for publication.
TNCath: I look forward to reading it.
* The Euro will tank.
TNCath: I think it already has.
* The SSPX will not be yet reconciled.
TNCath: I’m afraid that will be a prediction for many years ahead.
* Several dioceses in Ireland will be suppressed or combined.
TNCath: And, unfortunately, nothing much will essentially change in Ireland.
* Pres. Obama will not be re-elected.
TNCath: It all depends on the economy and whom the Republicans pick to run against him.
* The Cubs will not win the World Series.
TNCath: See my response to the prediction about the SSPX.
* NCR will, finally, be officially reprimanded for using the word “Catholic”.
TNCath: Which will incur more persecution of Bishop Finn.
* Benedict will still be Pope at the end of 2012.
TNCath: In the words of that wonderful hymn “Long Live the Pope”:
Almighty Father, bless his work,
Protect him in his ways,
Receive his prayers, fulfill his hopes, and grant him “length of days.”
One sure-fire prediction for the end of the year. The commenters over at PTB will still be whingeing about the by then not-new translation: “They’ve destroyed my mass! I’m taking my ball and going home!” and Rita will be cooing back: “I’m a world renowned liturgist and I feel your pain!” And my eminently sensible comments will still be automatically deleted.
On the topics of Israel and Egypt, I strongly suspect that there will be a war between those two, maybe in 2012, maybe in 2013, probably triggered by an incident in Gaza (which borders both Israel and Egypt). Gaza has already become a diplomatic albatross for the Israelis, with only the US protecting them from UN sanctions and with their relationship with Turkey taking a decided turn for the worse. What implications a war would have for the looming conflict between Israel and Iran, or how the inevitable entry of Syria into such a war would affect the relations between the Syrian dictatorship and the rest of their neighbors, I am not sure.
Of course, it might take longer than one more year for that to happen. However, if you are correct (whether this year or one of the ensuing ones), you have forgotten to predict one of the events which will almost certainly be linked to the tanking of the Euro, to wit, that it will be chased all the way down by the dollar. The Fed has stated that it will loan money to the ECB to prevent the collapse. If the Euro tanks, the paper the Fed will be left holding as collateral against the Euro won’t be much more valuable than any other small pieces of wallpaper.
Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer
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I predict I will still be quoting CCC2241 more than any other single article.
If the SSPX is not yet reconciled than let us all fervently pray for the sake of the SSPX that Benedict will still be Pope at the end of 2012
I share you disdain for the NCR father. It is simply an arm of the international pro-abortion movement masquerading as a “catholic” newspaper.
A Catholic prediction of my own is that Archbishop Nicholas will not be made a cardinal. I personally hope that he is removed as a bishop, I have no time for him.
Another prediction: Kim Jong Un will still be the only North Korean in need of a “husky”-size uniform. Only they won’t call it being “husky,” but putting the “great” in “Great Successor.”
Reuters actually reported that the KJU hairdo is “popular” in Pyongyang, though if he sported a purple “faux-hawk” tomorrow, it’d probably be the safe thing to follow suit.
Questions: Which book and will Father Z still have his blog by the end of the year?
“The SSPX will not be yet reconciled …”
… but the (continued) delay will cause yet another group of priests to defect from the Society and reconcile with Rome, creating another traditionalist order or institute.
“Benedict XVI will do something significant to support the Extraordinary Form …”
… as well as the reform of the reform.
I’m praying for your fourth from the end of the list.
That 4th one from the bottom – he could pack up today!
What a destruction he’s been to date.
All Americans need to WAKE UP and re-discover their faith. It’s not love of money we need more of; it’s love of God.
“NCR will, finally, be officially reprimanded for using the word ‘Catholic.'”
Have they not been already? I had thought that a former ordinary had given them a public reprimand decades ago. Reprimands are meaningless if they aren’t backed with action. When NCR’s ordinary excommunicates the paper’s board, anyone who works for the paper, and anyone who contributes money to it whether by subscribing or buying advertising, that will be a reprimand. They must be rubbing their hands with glee, therefore, that Bp. Finn, their current ordinary, has compromised his moral authority and done great harm to his ability to be the ordinary who cleans house. It’s just my two cents, but the bishops shouldn’t confuse speaking with acting. Speaking is much preferred to silence, of course, but acting is what counts.
I hate to offer such a prediction so I will merely say that I would not add Father Z’s last one to my list.
I am also loathe to exclude from my list his prediction about the President’s chances for a second term, but I wouldn’t bet the ranch on it.
I predict that Jon Huntsman will emerge as the surprise GOP nominee for president.
I predict that Marco Rubio will be the GOP’s vice presidential candidate.
I predict that Archbishop Dolan will not yet have donned the sacred purple by year’s end.
I predict that many more Anglican communities will swim the Tiber and that we’ll hear something about certain Lutheran and even Orthodox communities looking to cross over as well.
I predict that the bishops in the SSPX will either consecrate another bishop or assume for themselves some other equally shocking pretension using the “crisis in the Church” as their justification.
I predict that the SSPX will experience a major split or defection.
I predict that interest in the Extraordinary Form of Mass will not see much growth, if any.
I predict that there will be a major disruption within the British Royal Family in the year of the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee; perhaps the death of the Duke of Edinburgh, perhaps much worse.
I predict that something will go wrong with the power grid.
I predict that the preponderant ignorance of history will morph into a complete moronification of history, with many coming to believe in such absurd things as “ancient aliens” and their alleged role in engineering the human race (yes, I really believe we will have become that stupid by the year’s end).
I predict that reality shows such as “Ghost Hunters”, “Deadliest Catch”, “Pawn Stars”, “American Pickers”, and the like will at least double, and that they will have as their subjects the least interesting jobs imaginable (if they can make a hit show about garbage pickers, for heavens sake, they can make a hit show about anything).
NB: I offer all of these things as predictions, not as desires or wishes.
In the year two thousand…. In the year two thousAND!
“Benedict XVI will do something significant to support the Extraordinary Form.” I’ll buy a bottle of champagne to open on that predicted day. Many of us would be ever so happy.
Will the book be your doctoral thesis?
Re: #1, Iran announced that it has produced a domestic nuclear fuel rod, then followed-up by testing its first missile capable of striking Israel. Is it intentionally trying to provoke Israel?
Ahmadinejad has a “mystical” vision at the U.N., thinks he will help usher the Mahdi (an end-times Shiite religious figure, which will help Iran wipe Israel “off the face of the earth” etc., to include the “Great Satan” America).
But I would submit that Iran’s Supreme Leader is even crazier.
This is a pandora’s box because when Israel took out Iraq’s nuclear sites, and, more recently, Syria’s, it knew they would not be crazy enough to mount serious resistance (or retaliation); do they know this about Iran?
Btw: I feel very sorry for the people of Iran. Sans the Crazies (Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah, as well as the Revolutionary Guards and Quds Force) Iran could be another Turkey. It has incredible Universities (both a good and bad thing, since in the hands of the Crazies it is producing scientists capable of developing WMDs), an ancient culture with many fine attributes, great artists and architects, etc.
Without the Crazies Iran could be a friend of the world.
What is ironic in all of this, is that with the Shah (a Monarch) Iran was a friend of the world, but with “democracy” it fell into crazy-land! (I hope the same fate doesn’t befall Libya and Egypt).
Centristian:
“I predict that interest in the Extraordinary Form of Mass will not see much growth, if any.”
May I ask why you predict this? Just curious. Fr. Z’s prediction is that the Holy Father will do something supportive. I think it could go either way. Are you thinking perhaps that with the new translation, the “reform of the reform” has been kick-started again, and will therefore take some of the steam out of the movement toward EF Mass growth? Again, just curious. I always enjoy reading your take on this.
“Benedict will still be Pope at the end of 2012.”
Hoorah!!! Praise the LORD!!!!!
Fr_Sotelo:
“May I ask why you predict this?”
No science behind it apart from my own obervations over the years. I think a world ever more absorbed in dramatic shifts and upheavals, economic and otherwise, will find itself increasingly less interested in splitting liturgical hairs, in general. We who follow these things are something of a rare breed, and we hardly reflect the interests and priorities of the great Mass of Catholics, worldwide.
In my own experience, the Tridentine Mass crowd, in general, is not very evangelical but rather inwardly focused, so I don’t think there will be any sort of a major outreach in 2012 that will attempt to address what seems to me to be a stagnation. I can see that in my own neck of the woods that the EF “community” has shrunken over the last decade, not grown. As nostaglic traditionalists become fewer and fewer as they depart the surley bonds of Earth, I don’t sense that they are being replaced by young people who insist upon the pre-Conciliar forms. And young people cannot, of course, be nostalgic for something they never knew.
I think most Catholics who treasure the Church’s heritage: the Latin language, our sacred music, art, and architecture, &c, can find themselves embracing those things without at the same time feeling a need to return to the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Those who, on the contrary, positively insist upon the ’62 Mass and nothing else will typically have other agendas, as well, that cause that insistence, and will find their way to the SSPX, buying into the Society’s rhetorics and polemics.
“Fr. Z’s prediction is that the Holy Father will do something supportive.”
Father Z’s sense of these things is surely more astute than my own. Nevertheless, I personally don’t see it.
The Pope has not thus far shown and I am sure will continue to show no interest in personally endorsing a universal revival of the pre-Conciliar rites by celebrating the Tridentine Mass publicly. I really don’t think the Holy Father is interested in giving traditionalists that “A-ha!” moment they’re hoping for, by celebrating the “EF”, himself. I think the Holy Father is committed to a reform of the reform, not to a retreat from the reform. Too many traditionalists confuse the latter for the former, I think.
It seems clear enough to me, however, that the Pope has freed the Tridentine form of Mass from its fetters partly as a pastoral gesture in order that those few remaining who demand it may have it without having to turn to the SSPX, and also that the celebration of the Tridentine Mass may be seen a bit more so that its witness should serve as a good example for the rest of the Church of the dignified manner in which the Roman Rite in any form ought to be celebrated. I’m sure the Pope is not hoping that the “EF” will supplant or even enjoy co-equal status with the “OF” therefore I do not think he will do anything to actively “promote” it. Again he hopes to reform the reform, not to abandon the reform.
I’ve used the steam railroad comparison before. Churches that offer the “EF” remind me of tourist railroads in the United States that have acquired (or retained) steam locomotives, both to delight nostalgics and to draw in ridership who simply think a ride on a steam train would be neat for a change (but who don’t necessarily need to see steam universally replace modern diesel and electric motive power).
Steam locomotives are a rare delight to see in action…just like Tridentine Masses…but there isn’t a whole world of people out there demanding more of them. It’s great that there are a number of them left, so that we can still see what railroads were once like, but if they disappeared one day (and they will), most people would not miss them, especially if something happened to replace the diesel that was just as magnificent as the steam engine used to be, but more suited to contemporary use.
I don’t think the movement to restore the Tridentine Mass is growing, to be honest. I think and hope that the movement to restore dignity and mystery to Catholic worship is growing, yes, but I don’t think that movement necessarily equates the 1962 Missal’s resurgence with the attainment of those salutory goals.
So long as B16 remains in place then as far as I can see the world will be a better place. He is a man of grace whose service to the church runs deep and true. I for one pray he will be able to serve for many years to come. His influence on the church could outstrip that of any Pope since the Middle Ages if God grants him the time, health and energy. (Yes, I am a fan, in case that wasn’t obvious).
As much as I hate to disagree with Fr. Z, I hold to my prediction that the Cubs WILL win the World Series.
As Fr. says about his first prediction, one of these years I’ll be right.
From your lips to the ears of the Father. Especially the fourth one from the end.
Centristian:
I used to say some of the same things twenty years ago about devotees of the Traditional Mass. Most of them are dead by now, and when I look out from the sanctuary at the faithful who attend the older form of Mass, I see a lot of young people, and young families.
I don’t think it’s just nostalgia. Neither do they.
manwithblackhat: “. . . when I look out from the sanctuary at the faithful who attend the older form of Mass, I see a lot of young people, and young families. I don’t think it’s just nostalgia. Neither do they.”
I couldn’t agree more. Four years ago I had never been to a traditional Latin Mass and today the EF is the only one I attend (unless of course the OF is the only option). Our children still at home (6 out of 10) feel the same way and what I see in our community is more and more families coming from the OF and falling in love with the EF.
Several of us just yesterday were discussing how we are working with our pastors to have our confirmation aged children be confirmed in the EF. They are open to it and we are thrilled.
Centristian is right, “young people cannot, of course, be nostalgic for something they never knew”. I never knew it either. I am a convert of 28 years but what my husband and I and our children know is the beauty and reverence of the EF is something that grabs you and doesn’t let go. We love our priest (a young priest of 31 that grew up in my parish) and we are SO very grateful for the availability of the EF in our area (Lancaster, PA)
I’m almost embarrassed to admit that I’ve been to exactly 2 EF Masses in my lifetime, except to say that one New Year’s resolution of mine is to go for 3… and then some!
I have one to add to the list, the return of “Fr.” John Corapi.
I think Centristian’s comments carry lots of merit. One way to see the extraordinary form is as a counterbalance to the excesses of the left. It probably flourishes most where the excesses of the left are most excessive. If the reform of the reform is successful, though, the extraordinary form will disappear on its own because it will have served its purpose– no one will have to force it out of existence. I agree that the extraordinary form attracts many young people, but that may be simply because the typical ordinary form Mass in their own parish is too far to the left. Many of the younger people (and the older people too!) might well go for a reverent, orthodox ordinary form Mass if it were available to them, and they would not immediately dismiss the possibility of “reverent, orthodox, ordinary form” as an impossibility.
I like to think of everything we do as a vote of sorts. Many of the people who attend extraordinary form Masses would write-in “reverent ordinary form Mass with significant Latin” as a candidate if they could, but given the choice of “clown Mass” or “extraordinary form” with no write-in Mass, they gladly vote “extraordinary form” but perhaps with some reservations.
First, and most obviously, Alabama will beat LSU for the national championship on Jan. 9.
L’Osservatore Romano has funnies? I must have let my subscription lapse at the wrong time. Add a decent sports section and I’m back, even with the oddball stories about The Simpsons being Catholic.
As for the presidential election, Obama is working hard to lose it, but the Republicans seem to be showing more of the Protestant work ethic. It will not be easy, but I see no reason to doubt that they will blow it and lose to Obama. For their incompetent campaign they will win the 2013 Nobel Peace Prize.
I predict that the Holy Spirit will have the last word on Vatican 2. This may or may not be in 2012 and may or may not be to my liking. But if not I suppose I can always find some sainted Pope and start my own society in his name.
@manwithblackhat & MicheleQ:
“I don’t think it’s just nostalgia. Neither do they.”
Allow me to clarify: I do not believe that most people who attend the Tridentine Mass exclusively are nostalgics. What I meant to say is that the nostalgics are dying off and that they won’t be replaced by new nostalgics, of course.
?The Synod on New Evangelization will be held; then everyone will go home.
Father Z Might I ask what you mean by this? Are you saying the N.E. is bollocks and that it’s just another “theme of the year” and will utterly fail in the Church, or is it that the event will pass, and people will take the knowledge home with them to their countries, and be influences pastorally to put things into action (e.g. practically, pastoral letters via bishops conferences [yuck!]…)
From my seat in the pew at the Sunday EF, there are loads of children in front of me and even more behind. Yes, there are oldsters like me who remember before the Novus Ordo, but the bulk of the congregation is young people and lots of families. We used to be the only game in two dioceses and attracted attendance from up to 70 miles away. There are about a half dozen more Sunday EFs in the area now and our congregation took a hit, but we are growing again and so are the other EFs, as I hear. Nothing spectacular, just stable and growing.
Centristian, thank you for your EF insight on Fr. Z’s comments from your experience and observations. It is one of the more meatier posts here. But as a young person who attends some EF’s and has had involvement in the last year and a 1/2 with some more reverent Catholic kids, let me add my commentary on your posting. Some aggrement, and some disagreement.
“In my own experience, the Tridentine Mass crowd, in general, is not very evangelical but rather inwardly focused …”
That would be true. I don’t see that charism being overly expressed by the collective of people of the EFs I’ve gone too. We don’t tend to shout it on the rooftops, however my local Una Voce chapter is trying to do their best in promoting their masses with high quality legal size posters at a number of major parishes in the city and use of thier blogs and Facebook(TM) to get the word out with social media. We are definitely “charismatic” though in the sense we are proud of going and do try to explain to people who will listen.
“…. As nostaglic traditionalists become fewer and fewer as they depart the surley bonds of Earth, I don’t sense that they are being replaced by young people who insist upon the pre-Conciliar forms. And young people cannot, of course, be nostalgic for something they never knew.
Sigh, yes sadly every elder that remembers the EF and dies is one less that adds to the number of the communities and weakens their strength when it comes to dealing with authorities. However, I disagree with you to an extent in the statement that the young people don’t want to come to the EF out of nostalgia. Literally, yes its true. However, avoiding the EF altogether I disagree. I am seeing some families come to the EFs held in my city. We’re talking parents and young children under 13 and that exposure at that age is Critical. furthermore the server group that does these masses (shared amongst lay initiatives and our city’s Oratory/more tradtitional seminary vs. the regular liberal one) are all under 35 years, as young as 7 years old. I think that what is driving our young people to these masses is as one commenter mentioned here, Andrew Saucci:
“I agree that the extraordinary form attracts many young people, but that may be simply because the typical ordinary form Mass in their own parish is too far to the left. Many of the younger people (and the older people too!) might well go for a reverent, orthodox ordinary form Mass if it were available to them, and they would not immediately dismiss the possibility of “reverent, orthodox, ordinary form” as an impossibility.”
Thus, perhaps then, what we need to do for the last generation (60’s-80’s) and mine (late 80’s – millenial) is to market the EF in a different Way. Show the youth how the EF is in line with TRUE Catholic teaching, which would also require showing them how they are being poorly Catechised in their separate/mainstream Catholic schools and Masses. Basically, many of them should be able to see with the right education, that they have been ROBBED of true authentic Catholic exmaple and teaching by their teachers, priests, even their nominally Catholic/CINO/C&E Catholics of what their faith is truly about and that they will find good loyal and faithful priests, teachers, and role models (adults) here. Also tell the boys that this is a “boys-only” club with no girls serving and demands much more than OF serving, and so will help garner attention there (general consensus is that young boys love boys only activities. When girls enter the mix, young boys decline and leave, as seen in some posts and commmentary when the controversial US dioceses switched to all boys on this blog). So maybe this is the way to show the moderate Catholic youth of my generation what value is contained in the EF Masses. Offer them not the mush, but the seasoned steak! Finally, the new crop of JPII/B16 seminarians MUST learn either self-taught or in seminary how to do this and team up together with existing TLM organizations and EF-friendly dioceses, and not stay in one central place (a.k.a. ghettoization) in their cities or towns but move around a little, and get the word (and the practice) out there in other areas, so that curious people come, and perhaps they stay with the EF. Once that happens, the more moderate or liberal bishops will get the message (either financially when the $ contributions from Liberal theolology parishes 1-23 are dropping and Traddie parishes 24-28 of the diocese are growing, or from repeated requests from parishoners in the diocese) and will need to tow the line else lose their Churches to financial disclosure, or get the ire of the newly won and larger traditional Catholic crowd.
Have the Trad Communities in your area Centristian considered those ideas? Are you seeing more average Catholics in your NO communities liking the New Translation and saying, “yeah I’ll stay here?”
Among the predictions is what seems like news to me, “I will have at least one book ready for publication.”
Like someone else, I wonder if this has to do with the dissertation, or if it is about “save the liturgy, save the Church”. Either way, good to hear.
The one about the Pontifical Council for Migrants publishing a document against passports made me LOL, but I think they will now have better vetting for whitepapers.
I predict Medjugorje will be ruled by Pope Benedict as constat de non supernaturalitate, during the latter part of the year.
That the new office for liturgical art and architecture will issue a document with force of law regarding Church architecture and then start preparing one on liturgical music.
That the UK Ordinariate will get a main church.
That Fr Robert Barron will not be made a bishop, but not for lack of being asked
That WDTPRS blog will still exist at the end of 2012
That a major Catholic university in the US will cease to identify itself as Catholic
That two more small, scrappy faithfully Catholic colleges or universities will spring up in its place
Someone will found a new habit wearing religious order to do in greater freedom the kinds of charitable service that it will become increasingly impossible to do through organizations subject to government regulation, there will also be lay innovation in doing charitable service in strict conformity with Catholic teaching
“The Cubs will not win the World Series.”
You got that right, Fr. Z. The Texas Rangers are going to win this year. “grin”
Elizabeth D.
I think your list is more like a wish list than prophecies. But, good one.
Fr. Z: * Israel will attack Iran (one of these years I’ll be right about this).
TNCath: It’s only a matter of time. And we will sending troops back to the Middle East.
* NCR will name an old, disgruntled, liberal woman religious (or maybe a few) as person of the year.
TNCath: Semper idem.
* H.E. Most Rev. Robert Finn will still be Bishop in Kansas-City-St. Joseph.
TNCath: Only after going through much persecution.
* Egypt will become an Islamic Republic.
TNCath: It’s well on its way.
* Benedict XVI will do something significant to support the Extraordinary Form.
TNCath: While he may not actually celebrate the EF, he may be present for a celebration of it and deliver an address at it.
* The Pontifical Council for Migrants and Itinerant Peoples will issue a document saying that passports should no longer be required.
TNCath: And no one will pay the least bit of attention.
* Kim Jong Un will no longer be permitted to cut his own hair.
TNCath: Will they confiscate his bowl?
* Massive election fraud will confuse the vote on the pro-marriage amendment for the Constitution of Minnesota.
TNCath: It won’t be the first time.
* The Synod on New Evangelization will be held; then everyone will go home.
TNCath: And, like the Apostolic Visitation for Women Religious in the U.S., nothing will substantially change.
* Women will not be ordained deacons. (Good for 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016…)
TNCath: And Fr. Richard McBrien will continue to raise the issue.
* L’Osservatore Romano will start publishing a singles section. (They already have the funnies everyday.)
TNCath: A singles section will only supercede the humor of the funnies.
* I will have at least one book ready for publication.
TNCath: I look forward to reading it.
* The Euro will tank.
TNCath: I think it already has.
* The SSPX will not be yet reconciled.
TNCath: I’m afraid that will be a prediction for many years ahead.
* Several dioceses in Ireland will be suppressed or combined.
TNCath: And, unfortunately, nothing much will essentially change in Ireland.
* Pres. Obama will not be re-elected.
TNCath: It all depends on the economy and whom the Republicans pick to run against him.
* The Cubs will not win the World Series.
TNCath: See my response to the prediction about the SSPX.
* NCR will, finally, be officially reprimanded for using the word “Catholic”.
TNCath: Which will incur more persecution of Bishop Finn.
* Benedict will still be Pope at the end of 2012.
TNCath: In the words of that wonderful hymn “Long Live the Pope”:
Almighty Father, bless his work,
Protect him in his ways,
Receive his prayers, fulfill his hopes, and grant him “length of days.”
Supertradmum, yes a pretty uncreative wish list, I didn’t feel inclined to ponder bad things that could happen. :-)
One sure-fire prediction for the end of the year. The commenters over at PTB will still be whingeing about the by then not-new translation: “They’ve destroyed my mass! I’m taking my ball and going home!” and Rita will be cooing back: “I’m a world renowned liturgist and I feel your pain!” And my eminently sensible comments will still be automatically deleted.
On the topics of Israel and Egypt, I strongly suspect that there will be a war between those two, maybe in 2012, maybe in 2013, probably triggered by an incident in Gaza (which borders both Israel and Egypt). Gaza has already become a diplomatic albatross for the Israelis, with only the US protecting them from UN sanctions and with their relationship with Turkey taking a decided turn for the worse. What implications a war would have for the looming conflict between Israel and Iran, or how the inevitable entry of Syria into such a war would affect the relations between the Syrian dictatorship and the rest of their neighbors, I am not sure.
And the Muslim Brotherhood, who are and will take over Egypt, have vowed to destroy the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel.
FishWrap named Sr. Elizabeth Johnson person of the year.
Dear Father Z,
I tend to think you may well be right about:
Of course, it might take longer than one more year for that to happen. However, if you are correct (whether this year or one of the ensuing ones), you have forgotten to predict one of the events which will almost certainly be linked to the tanking of the Euro, to wit, that it will be chased all the way down by the dollar. The Fed has stated that it will loan money to the ECB to prevent the collapse. If the Euro tanks, the paper the Fed will be left holding as collateral against the Euro won’t be much more valuable than any other small pieces of wallpaper.
Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer