Ground Zero Mosque: a “Rabat”, not a “Cultural Center”

Some time ago, at the recommendation of the great Fr. Welzbacher of St. Paul, I read Andrew McCarthy’s The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage AmericaIt was an excellent preparation, or propaedeutic, for the controversy over the proposal to build the mosque complex at Ground Zero in Manhattan.  And, yes, I think 51 Park Place qualifies as “ground zero” in the sense that landing gear from one of the airplanes struck the building.

As I listened and read about the “Cordoba House” proposal something about it sounded familiar.  McCarthy described how militant Islamists of the Brotherhood developed centers for young muslim men which included an athletic program component.  The nickle dropped.  (Cf. Chapter 4. “Eliminating and Destroying the Western Civilization from Within”.)

Today over breakfast coffee… I saw in the New York Post an article by Amir Taheri, which you should know about.
Amir Taheri is author of 11 books on the Middle East, Iran and Islam.

Let’s have a look with my emphases and comments.

Islam center’s eerie echo of ancient terror


Last Updated: 8:35 AM, September 10, 2010

Should there be a mosque near Ground Zero? In fact, what is pro posed is not a mosque — nor even an “Islamic cultural center.

In Islam, every structure linked to the faith and its rituals has a precise function and character. A mosque is a one-story gallery built around an atrium with a mihrab (a niche pointing to Mecca) and one, or in the case of Shiites two, minarets.

Other Islamic structures, such as harams, zawiyyahs, husseinyiahs and takiyahs, also obey strict architectural rules. Yet the building used for spreading the faith is known as Dar al-Tabligh, or House of Proselytizing.

[NB] This 13-story multifunctional structure couldn’t be any of the above.

The groups fighting for the project know this; this is why they sometimes call it an Islamic cultural center. But there is no such thing as an Islamic culture.

Islam is a religion, not a culture. Each of the 57 Muslim-majority nations has its own distinct culture — and the Bengali culture has little in common with the Nigerian. Then, too, most of those countries have their own cultural offices in the US, especially in New York.

Islam is an ingredient in dozens of cultures, not a culture on its own.

In theory, at least, the culture of American Muslims should be American. Of course, this being America, each ethnic community has its distinct cultural memories — the Iranians in Los Angeles are different from the Arabs in Dearborn.

[Start taking notes if you have to…] In fact, the proposed structure is known in Islamic history as a rabat — literally a connector. The first rabat appeared at the time of the Prophet.

The Prophet imposed his rule on parts of Arabia through a series of ghazvas, or razzias (the origin of the English word “raid”). The ghazva was designed to terrorize the infidels, convince them that their civilization was doomed and force them to submit to Islamic rule. Those who participated in the ghazva were known as the ghazis, or raiders.

After each ghazva, the Prophet ordered the creation of a rabat — or a point of contact at the heart of the infidel territory raided. The rabat consisted of an area for prayer, a section for the raiders to eat and rest and facilities to train and prepare for future razzias. [The “athletic” component I alluded to earlier.] Later Muslim rulers used the tactic of ghazva to conquer territory in the Persian and Byzantine empires. After each raid, they built a rabat to prepare for the next razzia.

[NB:] It is no coincidence that Islamists routinely use the term ghazva to describe the 9/11 attacks against New York and Washington. The terrorists who carried out the attack are referred to as ghazis or shahids (martyrs).

[CONCLUSION:] Thus, building a rabat close to Ground Zero would be in accordance with a tradition started by the Prophet. To all those who believe and hope that the 9/11 ghazva would lead to the destruction of the American “Great Satan,” this would be of great symbolic value.

[Shift gears.] Faced with the anger of New Yorkers, the promoters of the project have started calling it the Cordoba House, echoing President Obama’s assertion that it would be used to propagate “moderate” Islam.

The argument is that Cordoba, in southern Spain, was a city where followers of Islam, Christianity and Judaism lived together in peace and produced literature and philosophy.

In fact, Cordoba’s history is full of stories of oppression and massacre, prompted by religious fanaticism. It is true that the Muslim rulers of Cordoba didn’t force their Christian and Jewish subjects to accept Islam. However, non-Muslims could keep their faith and enjoy state protection only as dhimmis (bonded ones) by paying a poll tax in a system of religious apartheid.

If whatever peace and harmony that is supposed to have existed in Cordoba were the fruit of “Muslim rule,” [NB:] the subtext is that the United States would enjoy similar peace and harmony under Islamic rule[That is why “Cordoba” was chosen: to symbolize the goal of subjugation of the USA to Sharia Law.]

A rabat in the heart of Manhattan would be of great symbolic value to those who want a high-profile, “in your face” projection of Islam in the infidel West.

This thirst for visibility is translated into increasingly provocative forms of hijab, notably the niqab (mask) and the burqa. The same quest mobilized hundreds of Muslims in Paris the other day to close a whole street so that they could have a Ramadan prayer in the middle of the rush hour. [These open demonstrations are escalating.]

One of those taking part in the demonstration told French radio that the aim was to “show we are here.” “You used to be in our capitals for centuries,” he said. “Now, it is our turn to be in the heart of your cities.

Before deciding whether to support or oppose the “Cordoba” project, New Yorkers should consider what it is that they would be buying.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. Supertradmum says:

    Thank you for posting this excellent article, Father Z. There is no such thing as moderate Islam, although there may be moderate Islamists, who do not believe in some of the teachings of their own sacred book.

    Open demonstrations will occur here if Americans do not wake up to the fact that Islamists want a Global Theocracy under Sharia Law. If one has followed the writings, sayings, announcements, and such articles in the past years since 9/11, one can clearly see the escalation of violence and stubbornness on the part of the Muslims who want to take over Western culture.

    I am tired of people who decry the moral decay of the West, which is a truth, without standing up for the great culture, created by the Catholic Church and Western Greco-Roman Civilizations, as well as the Judeo-Christian ideals. These philosophies and views of life are opposed to the Islamists’ ideas and desires.

    Solzhenitsyn, speaking of the Soviet Bloc, stated that one cannot have detente with evil. Same applies with the Islamists. And, the “religion” is not revealed, only the construct of a very disturbed man, accused by his own peers of Satanic visions. Wake up, America, I say.

  2. Bornacatholic says:

    Great post, Fr., Kudos and God Bless you for refusing to be intimidated by the establishment.

    Although I can not remember you ever writing that you have been threatened due to your courageousness, I am positive you have been.

    I am not the only one who loves your work nor am I the only one who prays for you.

  3. girasol says:

    Yes, thank you for sharing that article. Faithfulness to our Catholic identity is the answer.

  4. If people are able to refute the account in the article above, let them.

    We need the truth about this project in New York.

    The stakes are high.

  5. girasol: Faithfulness to our Catholic identity is the answer.

    Knowing the truth about this Cordoba House project is the key to the Cordoba House project.

  6. moon1234 says:

    The French arrested these Muslim demonstrators in the street right? Threw all of them that were obstructing the public right of way without a permit in prison for a short while? What if it had been the SSPX demonstrating in the street or the Royalists demonstrating? Do you think THEY would have been hauled away in the paddy wagon.

    Unless governments treat ALL citizens the same then one class gets special treatment. The muslims should be cited with a ticket or arrest in France just like any other group.

    Why aren’t the homosexuals out protesting in front of the proposed Mosque site, Rainbow Coalition, etc? Afterall, if the muslims have their way they will kill all of the homosexuals and other deviants. Could it be the violence that Muslims use against non-muslims scares them and they are more likely to attack the Christians because we don’t behead people (anymore).

  7. Supertradmum says:

    Cordoba history tells us much about the choice of the word, which churned my stomach as soon as I heard the term. There has never been freedom and tolerance under Islamic rule and, personally, I do not want to wear a burqa the rest of my life or witness martyrdom, which will probably happen here.

    Either we turn to the Incarnate Word and invoke the Great Queen of Heaven, as the Christians did in 1683, or I am afraid history will repeat itself. September 11th was chosen as an insult to that victory of the Catholics over Islam. We need to pray for a great out-pouring of Grace to withstand what looks inevitable-a violent show-down with Islam.

  8. Bornacatholic says:

    I am sick to death of the historical lies about Islam but what is worse is the Catholic Church/Christ-hating establishment dhimmis who pollute the airwaves with these execrable lies.

  9. Venerator Sti Lot says:


    If I may vary your comment, if people are able to fill in the documentary footnotes for the account in the article above, would they please do so?

    E.g., Mr. Taheri says, “the Prophet ordered the creation of a rabat”. This is presuambly based on the hadith: but which sources therein, precisely?

  10. Raid comes from Scottish and Northern English “rade”, riding, which comes from Old English “rad”, riding. The word was revived by Sir Walter Scott. Otherwise, a very good article.

  11. Bornacatholic says:

    Dear Sub… I think you misunderstood what the author wrote:

    The Prophet imposed his rule on parts of Arabia through a series of ghazvas, or razzias (the origin of the English word “raid”).

    Thee author is correct.

  12. Konichiwa says:

    I have to wonder if the plans for constructing a mosque in that spot was part of the plan that was executed on Sept 11, 2001.

  13. DHippolito says:

    Fr. Z, there’s only one problem with your take on this issue. The vast majority of Catholics, whether lay or clergy — and especially the prelates, starting with Rome — refuse to examine the evidence you and others provide. They are so caught up in their own agendas that they are blind to the truth that many Muslims (such as Taheri) present about their own history.

    As I said on another thread on this blog, JPII did many good things but he led a campaign of appeasement concerning Islam. This is the result.

    It’s also about time that Catholics start repudiating those sections of Nostra Aetate referring to Muslims.

  14. Peggy R says:

    Thank you for posting this and standing against Islam. The people must face the truth. It is not all FOX demagoguing as some would like to think.

    St Michael pray for us.

  15. John 6:54 says:

    Where do I pay my religious tax?

    At what point do American’s stand up? Would there be this much hubbub if someone was going to burn a bible? As Drudge showed the American military burned hundreds of bibles in Afghanstan and not a peep from our so called “Christian” nation.

    I’m not one for violence but this whole thing is starting to head down that path.

  16. chcrix says:

    “Other Islamic structures, such as harams, zawiyyahs, husseinyiahs and takiyahs, also obey strict architectural rules. Yet the building used for spreading the faith is known as Dar al-Tabligh, or House of Proselytizing.

    [NB] This 13-story multifunctional structure couldn’t be any of the above.”

    “After each ghazva, the Prophet ordered the creation of a rabat—or a point of contact at the heart of the infidel territory raided. The rabat consisted of an area for prayer, a section for the raiders to eat and rest and facilities to train and prepare for future razzias.”

    So…. The ex-Burlington Coat Factory “couldn’t be any of the above”, but it IS, absolutely positively a Rabat.

    Meanwhile, “Imam Feisel Rauf, the Muslim cleric who wants to build Cordoba House, is a moderate who has condemned Islamic extremism: Rauf was sent by the Bush administration overseas to act as an ambassador of good will to Muslim countries”

    So, an old retail store under the aegis of a guy hand picked by the notoriously pro-Islam Bush administration amounts to an assault on western civilization.

    It is worth looking at where the money comes from – on both sides of this ‘issue’.

    The regular liberal shills on the “pro” side, and the regular neocon shills on the “anti” side.

    I say, look before you leap and do not make others grudge matches those of the Church.

  17. Peggy R says:


    Before the mosque became a national issue this summer, local folks in NYC and 9-11 relatives were protesting the various local commissions to reject the various approvals needed to build the mosque. See this site which was founded in late 2009, when the mosque was first proposed:

  18. Bornacatholic says:

    Meanwhile, “Imam Feisel Rauf, the Muslim cleric who wants to build Cordoba House, is a moderate who has condemned Islamic extremism: Rauf was sent by the Bush administration overseas to act as an ambassador of good will to Muslim countries”

    Dear Chcrix. That is the problem. The American Establishment calls Triumphant Muslims “moderates.”

    His Taqiyya has fooled the willing-dhimmis of the establishment.

    He is far from a moderate Muslim (if such an individual exists)

  19. horta_98112 says:

    Most of the concerns I share but we need to remember our Christian past.
    after reading the article I found myself thinking about the Christian habit of taking over sacred places and building cathedrals on them. After all, once Christianity became legal, temples were turned into churches. Even in areas outside the Empire, such as Ireland, once Christianity came in, the sacred trees were cut down and churches were built in their place. In Mexico, the cathedral in the Distrito Federal is built right on a temple. In Lima, Peru, once can go to the basement of one of the churches and see the archeological excavation of the underlying pagan temple.

    Therefore, using the same exact logic as the article you sent out, missionaries in any country should be forbidden to build cathedrals, since cathedrals are obviously a sign of the coming conquest and destruction of the already existing pagan places of worship. You can argue all you like about how Christianity no longer does that, but it is obvious by looking at history that you would be lying. In passing, Orthodox people should always be forbidden from building churches, since it is obvious that wherever Orthodoxy takes root (as in the Slavic countries) pogroms against Jews shortly follow. Therefore, that is even more of an argument against allowing those Orthodox to rebuild the church that was destroyed on 9/11 near ground zero.
    The lack of logic and religious bias found in many of the anti-mosque arguments is sickening. However, I do stand with the Constitution, which gives freedom of worship which may not be taken away by the State nor stopped by even a majority. But, I also stand against illogical arguments that seek to justify bias based on cherry-picking history.

  20. ianJM says:


    Pope John Paul II was right and Nostra Aetate is on the mark.

    There is a splendid talk given by Fr Corapi that you can find on youtube. Just type in “Catholicism and Islam” and you’ll get a six-part, nine-minute each, video on it. He refers to Bishop Fulton Sheen’s prophetic take in 1952 on the path Islam would take in our time and refers to Our Lady of Guadalupe with a crescent moon under her feet.

  21. MarkJ says:

    “These are the great men who are to come, whom Mary will fashion by order of the Most High, to extend His empire over that of the impious, the idolators, and the Muslims.” – St. Louis de Montfort in “True Devotion to Mary”

    Devotion to Mary is the means by which God has chosen to form His spiritual army to defeat all enemies of the Church. Let us join the spiritual battle by being holy, obedient and humble Seravnts of Mary. She is our Queen who will lead us to victory.

  22. Jerry says:

    The following link is to a YouTube playlist for Fr. Corapi’s talk on Catholicism and Islam. It should automatically seque from one part of the video to the next.

  23. Elle says:

    In NY they also stop traffic by getting out of their cars to pray. Try stopping your car to say a decade of the Rosary. Oh wait that might get you a citation or something. We shouldn’t obstruct traffic, break laws, but we’d better get ready to do some holy disobedience…

  24. Bornacatholic says:

    Dear Horta. Mary Sopra Minivera was a pacific development (one of many) and totally unlike what Islam did to Churches in Christian countries.

    The practice of charging The Catholic Church with behavior indistinguishable from Islam is, finally, becoming known as an old tactic of indifferentists. leftists, and multiculturalists (but I repeat myself) and Catholic Church/Christ opponents.

    New explanations will have to be developed by the enemies of Jesus and His Church because, finally, the average American, an autodidact by necessity, is learning the facts about Islam and its execrable history and practices and what passes for Muslim orthopraxis is deviltry on steroids.

    What is unique among Christians is that they are at liberty to charge The Catholic Church with all manner of sin and evil without, literally, losing their head.

    Let a Muslim write the truth about Islam and he has to go into hiding for fear of losing his head.

  25. Bornacatholic says:

    The reason I began by saying this propensity was ironic was because the white West, alone among all civilizations now and throughout all history suffers from a unique paradox:

    1) it is by far the best, most beneficent, most decent, most advanced culture now and throughout all history

    and yet

    2) it is the only culture now and in all history that examines itself so minutely for faults and feels so ashamed of itself.

    Now, this is not entirely a paradox: There is a logical symbiosis between #2 and #1: The better, more decent and more advanced a society or an individual is, the more he will be able and willing to admit faults.

    But the modern West has, in its paradigm shift into the mainstream dominance of PC MC which began approximately 60 years ago, crossed the line from the constructive self-criticism that characterized classical liberalism, into a deranged pathology of self-condemnation that integrates a fear of criticizing all Others — much less of condemning the Others when they deserve it.

    The supreme irony in this all is that now the West is faced with a systemic danger from one particular Other — the Mother of all Others, Islam — whose culture is probably the least self-critical, most xenophobic and misoxenist of all cultures today, and throughout history.

    It’s time for the West to stop fearing the lion inside it that it always was, and to be proud of it — otherwise the lion of Islam (in Arabic, Osama) will devour the pussycat the modern West has become.

    Posted by the author at 7:56 AM

    That will be my last comment on this post

  26. Supertradmum says:


    There is a distinction in religions. Catholicism is the true religion, the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church created by Christ, and not merely another sect with which to compare other man-made and false “religions”.

    If one believes in objective truth and believes that the Church is, indeed, founded by Christ, the slow absorbing of other buildings is not quite the same. As to pogroms, we have asked forgiveness of our brothers and sisters in the Jewish community for such horrible crimes, but the Islamists never apologize and indeed, would not to a dhimmi culture or government.

  27. Gail F says:

    I think that’s hysteria speaking. And no, I’m not in favor of the thing being built. But I see no reason to believe it’s not a cultural center. Islam may not have them, but Americans do.

  28. Supertradmum says:

    Gail F.

    Your point that this mosque is being touted as a cultural center is excellent, but you are seeing it from the wrong perspective. The people behind the mosque are not Americans, but are Saudis with money and Hamas with an agenda. You can follow the money on several sites on the web. In order to understand another cultural perspective, one must think like the others. Here we see you and others innocently mistaking what is being said for what is being done. In the Koran, it is ok for an Islamist to lie to a dhimmi, a non-believer; it is not considered a sin. In the history of Islam, especially in Cordoba, Christian and Jews were persecuted under the so-called “peace of Islam”, which never existed.

    This mosque is nothing less than those who hate Americans dancing on the graves of those who died at the hands of their “martyrs”.

  29. Supertradmum says:

    May I add that the Americans in charge of the building permits should state loudly and clearly, “If you let a Christian/Catholic Western or Eastern Byzantine Church be built in Saudi Arabia, and let those who are Christians have religious freedom, then we shall let you build your mosque.”

    Islamists do not believe in tolerance and if they are talking about it, they mean something else-tolerance for Muslims and not for Christians.

  30. muckemdanno says:


    The 1964 Civil Rights Act makes it a federal crime to discriminate on the basis of religion. And the first amendment also prohibits the government from making law on the basis of religion. So, sorry, what you propose is against the law.

    I think that Republicans here in America are getting just a bit paranoid and looney…

    Here are some words regarding the Muslims from Vatican 2, which, of course, was inspired by the Holy Ghost:

    “3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

    Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. ”

  31. PostCatholic says:

    Apparently there’s no such thing as moderate Catholicism, either.

    It’s interesting to see such turns of phrase as “a mosque in the heart of Manhattan”–lower Manhattan is hardly its heart; there are several mosques in the actual heart of Manhattan (Midtown); two that are long established in lower Manhattan (cf; and half a dozen or so adult entertainment lounges closer to the WTC site than the proposed Islamic center/mosque/whatever you want to call it in your attempt to dichotomize the debate.

    I think it would be fabulous not to have any centers of any sort of Abrahamic religion–be they Jewish, Christian or Muslim–in Manhattan or anywhere else save as a museum of a primitive culture. That’s not likely to happen for a few hundred years or so, so until then I guess I’ll stick with the American principle of religious toleration. Besides, who’d make the good bagels I love to get in New York?

  32. Sandra_in_Severn says:

    But remember, today, as it has been for centuries, “Cordoba” is the Cathedral of Mary of the Assumption.

    Like children we need to put our pleads and concerns to Our Blessed Mother, to follow as she asked at Lourdes and Fatima; repent, and pray.

  33. Just breed.

    Old tricks are the best tricks. They’re beating us with babies, not bombs or mosques. The secularists don’t reproduce, or pass on their ‘values’, they’ll be gone in two centuries. The real fight is the population and evangelizing race between Christians and Mohammedans, they’re winning. Just follow some very simple Old Testament and New Testament commissions: i. Be fruitful and multiply, and ii. Go unto all nations, baptizing in the name of Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. For those who are not married, triple your efforts on the latter. Amen.

  34. catholicmidwest says:

    This is how they took over Spain. 5th column. Look it up.

  35. S. Murphy says:

    A Rabat? A combat outpost or training camp? Couldn’t it be just a plan by a group of American citizens and legal residents to make their own version of something their neighbors have – the YMCA and the JCC?

    The Moslem community in NYC lost people in the 9/11 attacks, too. That there are knuckleheads in Saudi or Palestine who think those attacks were a great idea, and think this mosque is a symbol of Islamic triumph, doesn’t mean these fellow Americans are mujahadeen.
    If Feisal Rauf thinks Hamas has legitimate political goals – how many of his theoretically Catholic neighbors thought the same of the IRA? At the moment, Hamas hasn’t been in a hurry to disarm as the IRA eventually did — but how long did it take the IRA? How many bombs did they plant in the meantime? And yet, somehow, most Irish Americans are not terrorists or sympathizers.

    Now, this ‘rabat’ might be, in a sense, a mission. Moslems proselytize. Okay, respond to that by preaching the gospel. Cultivate mutual respect. Find out why someone with a Catholic background would convert to Islam, and try to address that. But don’t assume the worst of this particular group of people. They’re Americans – they’re assumptions about tolerance and religious freedom are the same as ours. Give them a chance to work out the justification for that in an Islamic religious context. As Catholics, we should pray for their conversion, of course. As Americans (those that are), we should stand up for their constitutional rights, and have the same compassion for them as for any other family, parish, or community that lost members in the attacks of 9 years ago.
    What if this particular Islamic community is the one that’s going to model truly peaceful Islamic proselytizing to the rest of the world? (Obviously there are such groups already – probably the Moslem students association at most American universities, for instance — but Rauf’s community is going to be in the spotlight for a good, long time.) Don’t get me wrong, I find the concept of taqqiya disturbing; but I think it’s entirely possible for an American Moslem to come around to (or grow up) seeing ultimate conversion and adoption of Sharia as an eschatological thing – “someday, inshallah, my fellow Americans will all adopt Islam because they will see the truth of it, and then we all follow sharia voluntarily. No need for deception.”

  36. my kidz mom says:

    “The placement of mosques throughout Islamic history has been an expression of conquest and superiority over non-Muslims. Muslims built the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock on the site of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in order to proclaim Islam’s superiority to Judaism. The Umayyad Mosque in Damascus was built over the Church of St. John the Baptist, and the Hagia Sophia Cathedral in Constantinople was converted into a mosque, to express the superiority of Islam over Christianity. Historian Sita Ram Goel has estimated that over 2,000 mosques in India were built on the sites of Hindu temples for the same reason.”

    Robert Spencer,

  37. Supertradmum says:

    S. Murphy,

    “their assumptions about tolerance and religious freedom are the same as ours”

    I disagree completely and that is the problem.

    my kidz mom,

    Spot on.


    That document is well-meaning but a few “conflicts” does not cover the history of Europe, and the Middle East. Do you celebrate the Feasts of the Holy Name of Mary on Sept. 12th and the Most Holy Rosary on October 7th? I do, because I cherish my right to be a Christian and live in a nation, which still is, a democracy. I do not believe that document is a sufficient response to what we see today.

  38. Supertradmum says:

    By the way, there is a movement to canonize King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, the “Catholic Monarchs”, a title given to them by the Pope, and the couple who completed the reconquista of the Iberian peninsula. One of the important things that they did was take over the sharia courts and install Christian courts, based on natural law, Roman law, and Christian principles. If we remain blind and apathetic to the Islamists’ centuries old way of taking over a culture, we shall be in the same place at some time in the future. History gives us good lessons.

  39. Supertradmum says:

    S. Murphy,

    One more point. The Muslim Student Union at Irvine was suspended for a year for supporting Hamas, and my guess is that this group is the one which was found out. The American Muslim Student Union was founded by the Muslim Brotherhood, a notoriously terrorist and extremist supporting group. This is in the mission statement of the Union online.

  40. DHippolito says:

    Pope John Paul II was right and Nostra Aetate is on the mark.

    Really? How and why?

    Out of curiosity, do you believe that JPII was justified in kissing a Koran? If so, why?

  41. Supertradmum says:

    Dan Devine: No one, and I mean no one, comes into our house and pushes us around.

    From “Rudy”, well, I am an ND graduate.

  42. catholicmidwest says:

    Nope. Even popes have stupid moments and use toilet paper on occasion. It wasn’t ex cathedra. Just an unguarded moment with PJP2, as ever, being the congenial guy. And unfortunately a camera was in the vicinity.

  43. catholicmidwest says:

    ““their assumptions about tolerance and religious freedom are the same as ours”
    I disagree completely and that is the problem.”


    The words they use have different meanings for them and know that. If you don’t know that, you are at a tremendous disadvantage. Don’t be a sucker.

  44. catholicmidwest says:

    Why do you think that the muslim Dome of the Rock is on top of temple mount and the ancient temple of Jerusalem?

    Three guesses and if you don’t get it on the first one, you need a lot of help and education.

    [[This is just plain classic ancient history, for pete’s sake. Our Santa Maria Sopra Minerva church in Rome translates “Saint Mary’s on top of Minerva” because it’s a Catholic church built smack on top of a temple to the ancient goddess minerva. As in WE WILL BURY YOU. Get a clue.]]

  45. Supertradmum says:

    By the way, from the article above, what capitals did Christians take over from Islamists? I know my history and it was plainly the other way around, unless they mean Cairo and Khartoum, which have reverted back. Damascus was never taken, although briefly under a British mandate, which did not last. Every capital I can think of at the time of the Islamic take-over of the Middle East and parts of Europe belonged to either the Christians-both Roman and Orthodox, the Jews or no one group.

    These statements go unchallenged in the mousy press.

  46. catholicmidwest says:

    The Basilica of San Clemente (St. Clements) in Rome is smack on top of a sanctuary of Mitra, and ancient bull butchering cult. You can actually go down there and see it.

    When you see a building on top of something from a previous religion or culture like that, it always says WE WILL BURY YOU. We did away with that cult. We buried it. We walk on it. Our latrines are over it. Get it?

  47. catholicmidwest says:

    S Murphy,

    What we can’t bury, we remodel. Look up Santa Maria degli Angeli, the church that was once the decadent Roman baths, built by martyrs and reclaimed by us to memorialize their sacrifices.

    Muslims do the same. Look up the Hagia Sofia, once a church, but now a mosque. Would you like that to happen to *your* parish church?

  48. PostCatholic says:

    There was a mosque on floor 17 of 2 World Trade Center. Plenty of Muslims died in the terrorist attack (which, it is well to remember, included the immigrants working at the Windows on the World restaurant that Tuesday mornings).

  49. catholicmidwest says:

    IF the 19 murderers knew of the mosque, then the people there were traded as goods, in return for a successful attack. They would have been given automatic martyr status, if I’m not mistaken, 42 hot virgins in heaven and all that garbage, PostCatholic.

  50. catholicmidwest says:

    Surely, you’re not trying to say that those 19 murderers weren’t muslims, right? So what precisely is your point, PostCatholic?

  51. Supertradmum says:


    We are not discussing those whose memories we revere, but the cause of those deaths. The Muslims see those who were there as either “western collaborators” or as “martyrs” as well. There are Muslims who die everyday in Baghdad, Afghanistan, Pakistan, even the Gaza Strip, etc. by the hands of other Muslims. This is because life is cheap and emotions take over reason. Look at the fighting between the Sunnis and Shi’ites, the Shi’ites and the Muslim Kurds, who were almost completely destroyed in a genocide. Iraq was one of the Muslim countries where the Shi’ites were the majority, but the Kurds were Sunni, the largest group in the world. They have been fighting each other and the other sub-groups,like the Ismailis and Wahhabis, and all against the Sufis, for centuries.

  52. ianJM says:


    My point to your post is that Pope John Paul II and Nostra Aetate have got nothing remotely to do with where we are with Islam today? Militant or radical Islam don’t give two hoots whether you are nice or not to Muslims. They subscribe to the ideology that non-Muslims are infidels, must be subjugated, humiliated and conquered through every means and are fair game for persecution and murder.

    The problem with Western powers is that they are gripped by the mentality they are responsible for all the ills that have befallen Muslim countries, principally the Middle East. So they appease, give in to everything Muslims demand and close a blind eye to their brutal deeds in the hope it will foster goodwill. Few realize that even if those Islamic societies have not been plagued by poverty and so-call ills, the radicals would have still piloted the airplanes into the Twin Towers. It’s their ideology we have to understand.

    The popes, the Catholic Church and Her teachings and documents have got nothing to do with the present state of affairs the world is in with Islam, neither could She have humanly done anything about it. While we should all wake up, stand our ground and stop those Muslims who surreptitiously are attempting to hijack the free world, its beliefs and culture from gaining ground, we risk radicalizing those who have not yet cross over to extremism if we turn militant towards the general global population of Muslims.

    I believe all is not lost. Prayer and the intercession of Our Lady to convert the hearts of the majority who are not radical yet can stop the extremists and their diabolical goals dead in their tracks.

  53. catholicmidwest says:

    Correct, Supertradmom.

    PostCatholic, don’t tell me you don’t see all those bombed out busses and markets on the news all the time? Life is cheap in the middle east. These people are about 1/4 step above field mice in their viewpoint about the worth of life.

    You wanna see something that will make you go tilt?

    This is NOT the exception. This is the RULE.

  54. catholicmidwest says:

    Correct, ianJM.

    The “being nice to us in public” thing is just one more tool to be used in the war of the 5th column. The idea is to take over by any means possible, any means at all.

  55. PostCatholic says:

    Please do not put words in my mouth, catholicmidwest. I said what I said and no more.

  56. catholicmidwest says:

    Still feel okay about Iran having the bomb? Trust me, they’re not interested in blowing us up with it. They’re interested in threatening us with it, because they know we’ll crumble. That’s the whole strategy there.

    [They might blow up Israel though, because Jews have a much better handle on what muslims are like than we do. They only hesitate because they want Israel’s ritually & symbolically very precious scrap of land. However, if it comes down to Israel having it forever or blowing it up as the only options, trust me, they’ll blow it up and it will be their sacred wasteland. It won’t matter one bit if any muslims are in it at the time–they’ll be automatic martyrs.]

  57. Lisa Graas says:

    Father, thank you for this article.

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