Four minutes on what happened with the Council and what young people want now

Fr. Kramer, Pastor of the Extraordinary Form parish in Rome, explains the situation:


About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. Nicole says:

    Wonderful video. Thank you for posting this, Fr. Z.

  2. Clinton R. says:

    Thank you for posting this wonderful video, Father. I am 35 years old and been a Catholic for 4 years now. Novelties have no interest to me. Timeless tradition is something that I seek and have a great desire for. I am very much looking forward to my first TLM. There is a SSPX chapel near me, and if and when their canonical status is resolved, I look forward to attending a TLM there. It does seems like the Church Militant is close to a turning point back to reclaiming our rich traditions and heritage. Which will of course, drive dissidents into a frenzy. May Our Lord bless Pope Benedict XVI, and all faithful young men, such as those in the video, who have heeded the Lord’s call and are in the seminary.

  3. discerningguy says:

    Of course the good Father is absolutely right. I’d love to see an extended interview with him.

  4. Father K says:

    Am in Rome at present and will be attending solemn Mass at the FSSP church tomorrow

  5. Supertradmum says:

    Fantastic. I am sending this to every seminarian in my address book. By the way, those young men referred to in this video are more sophisticated and wanting more committment, have been and are still, actively discouraged in some seminaries in America. Yesterday, I had a long talk with an American sem, who has had no classes on the meaning and vows of the temporary deaconate, or the permanent deaconate or the priesthood, canon law of any type, marriage laws or guidelines thereof, or the meaning of Catholic marriage, history of the Church, history of Europe. Latin, history of the Councils, and has only studied in class in seven years of seminary training, two encyclicals. He said that most of his classes discuss pastoral issues and are not academic in the typical sense. More psychology is studyied than Church doctrine. He also has never had a class on different types of prayer. And, he states that none of the priests say the breviary in Latin, and that some skip the daily prayers in the breviary.

    What the boys want is not being given by those liberal priests and laity still in charge of the teaching, administrations and still chosing who goes on for the priesthood. This is an American phenonmenon, and at the end of our sad conversation, we decided that the heresy of Americanism is still alive and well in the American seminaries. If we Americans have a shortage of diocesan priests, it is our own fault for tolerating the liberality of the seminaries, throwing money into these institutions without any inspection on the part of the laity and outside boundaries of normal public notice. The young man, who will be ordained in 2014, said that at least 25% of the seminarians are homosexual and are known to be. He cannot talk about any of this with anyone, or he will be kicked out, and three of his best conservative friends have left in frustration and fatique.

  6. Sid says:

    Father Kramer is correct about the conflict between the Boomer “Destructive Generation” and young people today — at least those young people who (1) have passed through their adolescence and (2) have come to their senses regarding the general chaos around them.

    When you’re in Rome, attend the MEF at his FSSP church.

  7. discerningguy says:

    I would also like to point out that, while there are not exactly tons of committed young Catholics, the ones of us who are have decidedly different liturgical tastes than our parents and grandparents.

    Let us pray for the future.

  8. Pax--tecum says:

    Father Kramer is right. The younger generation of Catholics realises that the only way to eternity is using the eternal gifts that God has given us: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacrament of Confession and the other Sacraments. In using these gifts we should never allow the world to come in, the Church is and cannot be opened towards the world. What we need right now is stability, discipline, especially liturgically and in our private lifes. The sexual abuses are excesses of this spirit of the 60’s.
    What we need is “caritas in veritate”, love in truth, not an aberration of the truth in the name of false love, the false love which was propagated in the 60’s.

  9. Dax says:

    “Modernity now for young people is old-fashioned. The can cope with the more challenging liturgy of our Roman Tradition”.

    Amen Father Kramer.

    I recently learned there are 20 Americans at the ICKSP seminary near Florence, Italy. All told, they have 75+ candidates in a facility built for 50. These are the good problems we face.


  10. Dax says:

    Just occurred to me that Fr. Z may have a new line for his Swag Store.

    Mugs and bumper stickers emblazoned with: Modernity Is Old-Fashioned

  11. Supertradmum says:

    Did not G. K. Chesterton say something like, “In times of tyranny the Church needs to be radical, and in times of radicalism, the Church needs to be conservative”?

  12. haribo says:

    There was a recent report from PAIX liturgique that claimed the 5% of Tridentine worshippers in France were “generating” 15% of seminarians. Even if most of them came from Traditionalist backgrounds, those should be alarming statistics, not because they indicate a strong preference for the traditional liturgy, but because you have 15% of France’s seminarians restricting their priestly ministry to only 5% of Catholics. Would it not be better for those men if they could save souls in NO parishes instead of returning to EF parishes that are already well staffed and catechized? I think there are situations where it may be holier to set aside one’s personal liturgical preference to reach the souls in greater need of help. The priesthood is for others, and an exclusively EF formation puts obvious limits on the souls that you can reach as a priest, which might be a good reason to set aside personal tastes and bite the bullet when possible.

  13. Supertradmum says:

    haribo, it is not merely a question of “one’s personal liturgical preferences” but one’s entire spirituality. The way a traditional person approaches the liturgy and God, is, I think, very different from the way a NO person does so. Also, how can a traditional young man, without going against his conscience, assist at Masses where there are liturgical abuses? The other reason for this statistic, as least in Europe, and I have been in Europe for over a year, is that the NO families contracept and the trad families do not. This is obvious merely by women discussing their own personal lives with other women, something men do not do. I can assure you that every Catholic married woman bar two, of child-bearing age I have met either in Malta, Ireland, Britain or France, are practicing birth-control, not NFP. So, the statistic shows a hidden reason why there are more traditional sems, and that is their mothers have other, more children. Having said this, I know two moms, personally, whose sons who are traditional, have gone into diocesan seminaries. They anticipate, however, saying the Latin Mass as well as the NO.

  14. Tom Piatak says:

    I think Haribo brings up a very important point.

  15. Dennis Martin says:

    Have to disagree with Haribo. All the OF parishes have to do is get busy generating more seminarians. Don’t blame EF parishes for that. The 5% and 15 % simply indicate a fact: the tradition generates, rupture with tradition does not.

    Over time this will change. The OF will flourish insofar as its “adherents” permit themselves to be drawn back to tradition. EF and OF are not enemies and merely citing this 5% and 15% misses the larger issue: why, at present, aren’t more vocations being generated by the OF. Not, I would submit, because of what few points of critique might be leveled against the OF in se.
    The OF can be celebrated in a manner that is, to the average Catholic, nearly indistinguishable from the EF as far as customary ritual is concerned (ad orientem, Sanctus procession, regular use of incense, use of chant etc.). The first time Fr. Phillips celebrated the OF at St. John Cantius ad orientem and unannounced, an older parishioner who, like me, normally attended the OF Mass, said to me, after Mass, “I didn’t know that we were going to have the Old Mass this morning.” She could not tell the difference because she could not follow the Latin.

    The problem is with the manner of celebration.

    Traditionalists need to get off the OF-bashing train and get on the OF cross-fertilizing train. Where this leads none of us knows–whether the EF overtime becomes dominant among those who remain faithful in the persecution, whether the ad orientem with chant becomes normative for OF Catholics who remain with the Church in the persecution, who knows?

    Fr. Kramer’s point is that vocations emerge from the richness of the tradition. Both EF and OF can be celebrated in a richly traditional manner. My preference is for the texts of the EF and even for the lectionary of the EF. But the OF can be celebrated in the richness of the tradition. The Canons do that every Sunday at 11:00 at 825 Carpenter Street.

    EF and OF need to stop sniping at other (yes, I’m equally put out by OF adherents who snipe at EF adherents in the blogosphere and elsewhere).

    Sniping is a luxury that has to be foregone in times of persecution.

  16. BaedaBenedictus says:

    Haribo, for many of these seminarians, the ancient liturgy is not merely a matter of taste or preference.

  17. Supertradmum says:

    I have a comment in moderation above Mr. Piatak’s where I disagree with haribo for two reasons, I shall not repeat here, but may I add that I am personally tired of NO people complaining of a lack of vocations when the families do nothing to promote such. My homeschooling conservative friends and my trad friends all have vocations, either singular or plural, or in the making, if the children are young. Sorry, but the typical NO family has no right to expect EF boys from taking up their slack.

  18. Supertradmum says:

    sorry about the “their” rather than “its”…may I add add that the families get what they work for and deserve…no religious leadership from the dads, no vocations; no daily rosary, no vocations; no discipline, no vocations; no respect for the priests and the Eucharist, no vocations; no mother in the home, no vocations; no catechesis in the home, no vocations; insistence on lukewarm Catholic schools, no vocations; and, repeating myself from above, contraception in the family, no vocations. Obviously, God can call men out of darkness to be priests, but vocations usually start in the home.

  19. Dennis Martin says:

    To clarify (apart from correcting foregone to forgone), when I mentioned a cross-fertilizing train I was not saying that cross-fertilization would come if the EF institutes opened up to also celebrating the OF. Let the EF institutes give their gift to the OF by living in the richness of the EF. The OF “reform” will come about through a combination of the very existence of the EF institutes and openness to the riches of the tradition from within the OF framework itself. That that has begun is, as I hear it, part of Fr. Kramer’s point. That reappropriation of the riches of tradition has plenty of room to expand in OF soil itself, led by priests and laity who are not coming from EF institutes. But they need the EF-only institutes on the horizon just as EF-adherents can relax and let the insecurity and over-againstness that understandably arose during the years in the wilderness slip away like water off a duck’s back . In 20 years the desultory vernacular OF liturgies so common today will, one may pray, be rare. Of course, the number of parishes will have shrunk as persecution faces people with real choices about whether they really, truly, really, truly want to pay the price of being Catholic.

  20. digdigby says:

    haribo –
    Sorry this gives you the vapors, but these marvelous young men do not wish to ‘serve’ at the

  21. Supertradmum says:

    It would be nice if some American NO seminaries started making several years of Latin mandatory for all seminarians, instead of letting them opt out for Spanish or other languages. It would also be nice if some NO American seminaries would actually offer the EF more than once a semester or once a year for the seminarians. The so-called divisions start at the seminary level, if not the family level.

  22. Dennis Martin says:

    Supertradmom: “The way a traditional person approaches the liturgy and God, is, I think, very different from the way a NO person does so.”

    True in some ways, yes, but a de facto reality rather than an existential necessity. The de facto reality arises from the abuses and foolishness of the ars celebrandi not from the essence of the two forms.

    I say that while agreeing completely that the Offertory prayers of the OF are impoverished in comparison. Yes, some of the new collects could have been done better. But some of the new collects are actually very excellent prayers and add to the richness of the tradition.

    De facto the advocates of the EF kept alive the riches of the tradition and surrounded the Mass with a full-throated Catholic culture. This gives rise to the differences, very real differences, Supertradmom cites. But that arises from the whole package of Catholicness as lived by EF adherents over the past decades and the whole package of Catholciness as lived by the average vernacular parish of the past decades.

    I get so tired of people conflating OF with vernacular and blaming the OF per se for what happened to it in the vernacularization and liturgical desultorization. The latter were imprudent and have had horrendous consequences for Catholic culture, contributing largely to the “CINO” or Cafeteria Catholic phenomenon that has divided and weakened the Church.

    But, the desultorization can readily be peeled away. Vernacularization is a much bigger problem, but with the better translations, a traditional ars celebrandi even for the vernacular can and will be developed in the coming years. The riches of the tradition as described by Fr. Kramer are embedded and cultivated in the EF, for sure. But they can be cultivated in the OF, both in Latin and in the vernacular. That most of us have never seen this happen does not mean that it cannot happen.

    Yes, I have been in many vernacular parishes where I despair of even imagining a reform of desultorization and restoration of customary ars celebrandi–ad orientem, incense, sanctus procession. Some of these parishes will simply dessicate and disappear in the persecution. But some will be transformed by energetic, courageous young priests and, one may hope, laity who look over to the EF for inspiration but give their energy to the reform of the reform.

    We need both. Fr. Kramer said nothing whatsoever about EF and OF. The commenters on this thread brought that into the discussion. It’s sad, really, that that’s where we all, both EF and OF, instinctively head. It’s a bad habit acquired from years in the wilderness.

    We need each other now. We are all in the wilderness together and will be for decades to come.

  23. Dennis Martin says:

    Fr. Kramer said: “Modernity now for young people is old-fashioned. The can cope with the more challenging liturgy of our Roman Tradition”.

    I’m sure he had in mind under “more challenging” the EF. He’s completely correct, of course.

    But I have seen the OF celebrated with a highly, highly challenging ars celebrandi. We do it frequently at St. John Cantius. And I don’t just mean Solemn High Mass whether OF or EF. We have EF Masses that just barely cross the line from Low Mass to High Mass (procession from the sacristy rather than center aisle, minimal chant) that are still “challenging” in the sense that Fr. Kramer has in mind, I think. We have the same range of OF Masses.

    Whether Fr. Kramer had that in mind or not, this full range of what constitutes “challenging” and “riches'” is in my mind. Vocations will come as OF parishes discover the wonders of a challenging ars celebrandi of the OF, both in Latin and the vernacular. And that will happen. Not fast enough for most of us, perhaps, but impatience is not, last I checked, a Christian virtue, even if one can understand the frustration from decades of abuses that leads to the impatience.

  24. ReginaMarie says:

    Speaking of celebrating in the vernacular…most Eastern Catholic Churches in the US celebrate the Divine Liturgy in the vernacular (some still offering additional Liturgies in Ukrainian, Slavonic, etc.) — yet the Divine Liturgy remains reverent, mystical, orthodox & deeply spiritual.

  25. Elizabeth says:

    Thank you, Father Kramer. Beautifully stated.

  26. Elizabeth says:

    I don’t agree with the statement “The problem is with the manner of celebration.” by Dennis Martin. The Novus Ordo, whether said in the original Latin or not, reverently or not, beautifully “done” or not, is still in its very nature, its prayers, not a sufficient representation of our Catholic Faith. It’s valid and licit, yes. But it is also so stripped down to appeal to Protestants, as is a documented fact, that it can not compare. Yes, God can raise up saints even within the OF world; all things are possible. But I do not believe “we need both”. My hope and prayer is that in the future, the OF will gradually be outgrown and disappear.

  27. ContraMundum says:


    By the same token, nothing you find done by man (except for the One Man, Jesus Christ) is “a sufficient representation of our Catholic Faith”. If you think the EF fully expresses what the OF only hints at, you are mistaken.

  28. Supertradmum says:

    EF creates a culture and OF creates a different culture. As to mentioning St. John Canisius in Chicago, what is the point if millions of Catholics do not live within driving distance of such Masses. Most OF Masses have at least one minor if not major abuse.

  29. Supertradmum says:

    Sorry wrong combo of saints..John Cantius…I hate texting!

  30. NancyJ says:

    Our family started attending a FSSP parish about 18 months ago and my three boys (12, 10, 8) are thriving in this atmosphere thick with tradition and meaning. They listen intently to the homilies which nourish and instruct. They thirst for truth and embrace new devotions and prayers as they are introduced to them. My husband and I are learning our Catholic faith for the first time.

    Most of our parishioners live at least 15 minutes away and have a Catholic Church that is much closer to them. Our local parish is just a half mile away, yet we choose to go out of our way to this church because we are finally receiving the Truth. Praise God that we found this beacon of light in our troubling times.

  31. benedetta says:

    Beautiful! Thanks for posting this Fr. Z!

  32. digdigby says:

    Yes yes yes. I have a Catholic church two blocks from me. A rather charming pseudo-Romanesque old pile. And to think what I travel many miles every week to have was THERE once, in all its fullness and just two blocks away. It breaks my heart.

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  34. I’m not sure anyone has yet pointed out the most remarkable aspect of this video featuring an FSSP priest on the appeal of traditional liturgy to young folks today:

    That it was produced by the Catholic News Service (CNS) of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops!

  35. digdigby says:

    “By the same token, nothing you find done by man (except for the One Man, Jesus Christ) is “a sufficient representation of our Catholic Faith”. If you think the EF fully expresses what the OF only hints at, you are mistaken.”

    There are so many things wrong with these two sentences, I wouldn’t even know where to begin. On earth there is ‘near’ and ‘far’, for instance. A crude example is the Monty Python crew seated too far from the Sermon on the Mount and trying to figure out what they can’t hear because they are too far away. 99% of the time the OF is ‘too far away’ and enamored of ‘figuring out’ what was said rather than coming closer to Jesus Christ Emmanuel.

  36. dspecht says:

    Dennis Martin:

    But the OF can be celebrated in the richness of the tradition.

    EF and OF need to stop sniping at other

    True in some ways, yes, but a de facto reality rather than an existential necessity. The de facto reality arises from the abuses and foolishness of the ars celebrandi not from the essence of the two forms.

    But then he goes on and admits himselfe:

    I say that while agreeing completely that the Offertory prayers of the OF are impoverished in comparison.

    But this description as “impoverished” is not strong enough, not adequate, dennis martin, I would argue. The “offertory” prayers (now: preperation of gifts- prayers) are far more a sign of rupture with tradition and Catholic doctrine, as Bf. Schneider suggested when calling it one of the 5 wounds of the Church and describing it in a way that you see it is ruptural. (cf. here on wdtprs or on rorate caeli).

    And I would add some other important ruptural things, f.e. the manner of consecration. And the ommision of so many outward signs of reverence, so the kissings, the bowings, knee-bends. And of course the holding-the-fingers-together after the consecration. [Etc.!!]

    Because of this really bad (ruptural) parts of the NOM ( – not to speak of the Euch. prayer II or the new prayer for the Jews or the requiem-prayers – ), that are not abuses but part of the NOM itselfe, I can not see how sb. can hold the above cited first four sentences.

    No, not only the abuses are the problems. If you at least admit that the new “offertory”-prayers (that are no longer offertory prayers but gifts-preperation-prayers) are problematic, you can NOT judge that the NOM “can be celebrated in the richness of the tradition”.

    With the lack of the old prayers and the poor new ones you do not have the “richness of tradition”!

  37. lucy says:

    For our family, who have been attending EF for about 7 years, I can say that it has had profound effect on our lives. My children, ages 14 down to 7 prefer the richness of tradition over the relative emptiness of the OF. They asked to please not go to the “noisy Mass” any more. At that time our oldest was 7! Even very young children can see the beauty.

  38. Denis says:

    In response to haribo, Tom Piatak:

    For the young traditionalist semimarians the EF is part of their charism. To complain that they are too set on this fundamental aspect of their charism is sort of like saying that Mother Theresa didn’t spend enough time doing philosophy, or Thomas Aquinas helping the poor.

  39. Angie Mcs says:

    A brief but interesting perspective on the past and what the future holds. May the yearnings in the hearts and minds of these young men bring about the changes from which we can all benefit.

  40. dspecht says:

    I just looked it up:

    Bf. Scheider explicitely spoke of “rupter” considering the new liturgy and the 5 wounds.

    Not long ago Alcuin Reid also spoke of rupture through the new liturgy! And not only “liturgical” resp. “ritual” but also “theological” rupture.

    The “Ottaviani-intervention” came to the same result (always considering the new liturgy as such, not the abuses!)

  41. As one with TLM credentials in good order (I trust)–participating daily in the TLM, either live and in person when I can, or remotely (e.g., via praying the Mass a la St. Pius X–I also am sorry to see the Novus Ordo bashing that tarnishes many TLM threads like this one.

    If Pope Benedicts intentions are a guide, as the OF is reformed with the EF as a model, it will continue for the foreseeable future to be the Holy Mass of the preponderant majority of Catholics. Even as an inveterate TLM devotee, I can see that the Church now has to start where it is, instead of trying to return to where it once was. Of course, where it is now for most Catholics is a perversion of the Mass of the OF Roman missal–which, incidentally, in its Latin propers has a richness of its own that complements that of the EF missal.

    The problem is not with the OF missal, but with its abuse by a couple of generations of priests not adequately formed. I myself have spilled all the usual ink about traditional prayers missing in the OF, but Pope Benedict has stated definitively that the priest’s private prayers of the traditional offertory (for instance) were a late addition to the Mass, and are not necessary for its validity or sanctity as the perpetuation of the Sacrifice of Calvary down through the ages.

    In this regard, in a recent sermon I heard an analogy with a tapestry that has two aspects–the more important aspect is shown is rich detail on its front side, and a complementary but less important aspect is shown on its back side. If it is suddenly re-hung with its front side to the wall and only its back side visible, then after a while people seeing it that way begin to focus only on the less important aspect of the tapestry. But if–as is now happening in scattered places–the tapestry is suddenly reversed and its front side is visible once again, then a remarkable phenomenon is observed: Now, seeing only the front side of the tapestry, people soon begin to behave differently in its presence, and begin once again to focus on its more important aspect.

    I know from personal observation of OF Masses celebrated in a traditional manner by faithful young priests who also celebrate the EF that, when celebrated in the proper sacrificial orientation and with the naturally accompanying aspects of EF ars celebranda and reverence–usually using only the Roman Canon and with a silent offertory during which people and priest may well use privately the traditional prayers of the offertory–the OF Mass can most definitely be recognized as a holy and sacred sacrifice of the Roman Rite.

  42. Diane at Te Deum Laudamus says:

    Did I see that right? Catholic News Service produced that?

    Wow. Things are changing.


  43. robtbrown says:

    Tom Piatak says:

    I think Haribo brings up a very important point.

    Agree, but he doesn’t seem to realize that there’s a reason why in those parishes (dioceses, religious orders) there are no vocations.

  44. dspecht says:

    …but Pope Benedict has stated definitively that the priest’s private prayers of the traditional offertory (for instance) were a late addition to the Mass, and are not necessary for its validity or sanctity

    But this argument is not valid resp. convincing.

    This is the kind of modernistical wrong “archeologism” that was condemned by Pius XII in Mediator Dei

    There is a real progress in the Church, that should not be nocked down for reasons of “antiquity”, “archäology”, “originality”.
    Even Jungmann said that the offertory prayers (the old ones, of course) werer one of the theological deepest and brightest things in the liturgy! – So no argument that they are younger than other prayers. (Grrr…)

    And the illustrative image (analogy) used is also not fitting. Say that sb. took scissors and cut sth. out of the tapestry (and put later on some new things in, not fitting to ther rest… etc….), then it will work.

  45. wmeyer says:

    Henry: I put off buying a Missal, until I could have the new one. Now that I have it, and in defense of some of the comments here against the OF, I must say that in my home parish, it is too frustrating to use the Missal, as it makes plain the abuses which are being routinely made.

  46. wmeyer: I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately, in many or most places, one has to search selectively for a properly celebrated OF Mass. I personally find it reliable to attend only OF Masses celebrated by faithful young priests who also celebrate EF Masses.

    However, my intended point was that most of “the comments here against the OF” are not really about the OF itself in its proper Roman Missal celebration, but rather about its abuse (or even perversion) by priests and people who either don’t know or don’t care any better.

    dspecht: While I accept Pope Benedict’s liturgical judgement, I have no argument with what you say. I personally am so devoted to the TLM offertory prayers that I have long had them printed as an insert to keep in my OF hand missal so I can pray them personally whenever I attend an OF Mass. So I will feel better about the OF when (as I expect) they are re-inserted in the next edition of the OF missal.

  47. Diane: See the VERY sympathetic CNS article:

    New generation, old rite: the enduring appeal of Catholic tradition

    Would have been hard to imagine, just a year or two ago. Indeed, brisks are being laid, one row at a time.

  48. dominic1955 says:

    I don’t think any TLM apologist worth his salt argues against the NO merely on the abuses perpetrated during its celebration. No, the problem is with the NO itself-even before anyone heaps any sort of abuses on it.

    The fact that the rite of Mass was changed so drastically and at the behest of some team of “experts” inundated with the Zeitgeist is the main problem, regardless of how ambiguous or solid the actual texts ended up.

  49. haribo says:


    “Agree, but he doesn’t seem to realize that there’s a reason why in those parishes (dioceses, religious orders) there are no vocations.”

    Of course I realize this, and I don’t know why you would have assumed otherwise. What most of these posts also assume is that it’s traditionalist families that are generating these vocations, when often, at least in the US, it’s young men from non-traditional families who are drawn to traditionalist orders. I’m not accusing all traditionalist seminarians of this, but I can’t help wonder whether some of these young men avoiding the NO are jumping ship to find spiritual peace in communities more in line with their liturgical and spiritual preferences. Yes, life in a territorial parish can be difficult and fraught with moral pitfalls (e.g., you might be asked to concelebrate with the Easter Bunny) but it might have been a holier and more selfless choice for some of these seminarians to give up the comfort of personal parishes and fight the good fight on the front lines. As one traditionally inclined diocesan priest told me, “It’s where the souls are,” and he knew that by tolerating EMHC and altar girls, he wasn’t preaching to the converted and could reach thousands of souls who hadn’t been reached already.

  50. contrarian says:

    Totally. Modernity is old fashioned, as he says about three minutes in. And yes, that would be great for the swag store.
    Like many a bloke in his thirties, I see the Vatican II silliness as so much out-dated nonsense. It’s not the future. It’s not even engaging the present. It’s sooo the past. More than being heterodox…it’s just *lame*.

    I guess I just wonder sometimes how much of the VII silliness was necessary, in some sort of pop-Hegelian sense. Did the current revival of intelligent, informed orthodoxy need to be preceded by this period of darkness? Did it wake us from our dogmatic slumbers, in a way that nothing else would have?

    I DO know that technology has helped with the Church’s revival. Since the Church has the truth on its side, it benefits the most from the incredible power of knowledge-dissemenation that the internet has brought. Weird to think, but I think that the revival of the Latin Mass has been a result of the newest of the new: the internet machine.

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  52. cdnpriest says:

    I believe that Father’s assessment in regard to seminarians and Tradition is very accurate. Not all seminarians, mind you, but certainly a large percentage of them. Having been ordained for less than a year, I personally celebrate the TLM (Low Mass) whenever I offer Mass in private, in my living quarters, but am not allowed to do so publicly in the parish, since the parish priest (pastor) will not “tolerate” it. I was taught nothing of the Extraordinary Form in the seminary, but had assisted often at an EF Mass before entering the seminary. In the seminary, I learned the rubrics on my own with the aid of the FSSP instructional DVD for priests and seminarians.

    My pastor does not allow me to use the church altar for the purpose of celebrating the EF Mass, even in private, lest an unsuspecting parishioner “walk in by chance and be scandalized”. At times, I feel as though we have returned to the era of the catacombs, when the early Christians were forced to keep their Faith very hidden from the public eye. The difference is that, today, it is not those outside of the Church but rather those from within who are the most opposed to Catholic Tradition.

    Through this trial, priests and seminarians who love Tradition will gain much to offer Our Lord in the way of personal sacrifice, and their fidelity will undoubtedly bring forth many graces from Heaven for the Church. Not to mention that we will be afforded the opportunity of growing in the Christian virtue of patience, which is a virtue with which the early Christian martyrs were all too familiar. In patientia vestra, possidebitis animas vestras (Lk xxi, 19).

    Offering the TLM in the Ancient Rite of the Roman Church is one of the greatest consolations and joys of my Priesthood. I hope and pray that one day, I will be able to do this not just in secreto but openly and for the Catholic faithful. As for now, only the Angels and the Saints assist at my private TLM Masses — but for the time being, that is good enough for me.

  53. St. Epaphras says:

    cdnpriest: The many daily sacrifices of yourself and your confrères, “priests and seminarians who love Tradition” are very much appreciated, and you are loved and prayed for by many of your elders who don’t even know most of you. The graces you mentioned above are for now as well as for those days when we older folks will not be here. You give us hope.

  54. @ hairibo
    As far as forcing EF vocations to the OF would be like telling the Great Monastics of the medieval ages which evangelized Europe that they really were wrong and should have been a bit more worldly, left the cloister and just plain loosened up because nobody was living in the wilderness. People need to realize that God doesn’t call people to holiness that way. Not all crosses are the same and there is no merit in bearing a heavy cross when God calls you to bear another one instead- even if that one is lighter. Neither is fleeing temptation a bad thing- actually it is virtuous and many saints/ monastics have done so throughout history. Many of the monastic orders in the Medieval Ages went into the wilderness to set up monastries (think Cistercians and St Bernard or the Carthusians and St Bruno- the list goes on). People came to them because they realized that there they could find spiritual aid and encouragement. As a matter of fact some cities/ towns in Europe are where they are today because once great monastries stood there. That is very different from the common founding of town/ cities near water wayts, trade routes, etc. When people are truly hungry for holiness they will seek it out and know what it is (even if they can really describe it and yes even disagree with it). There is something about holiness that stirs people in one manner or another.

    Also the priest is an alter Christus- some are called to be alone with Christ in the desert while others with Him in the towns and the multitudes. There is no one size fits all. People should never presume without personal knowledge and a solid understanding of spiritual aseticism to flippantly tell others what their vocation is or should be- especially without even knowing or meeting the individual. You can very easily give advice that will cause immense spiritual damage and may take years (if ever) to mend. The vocation of the Carthusian is just as valid and perhaps in certain ways even more effective than that of the diocesan priest. In many ways Mary accomplished more than Martha though she appeared to do little other than to sit at Christ’s feet and listen to Him. I am not saying this to disparage the active ministry- it is essential and not to be underestimated or treated lightly. However, to say all workers in the fields should be reapers or planters, etc demonstrates a very superficial understanding of the kingdom of Heaven. Let God call and mold the soul of each person- He knows what is needed and what He formed that person for. To be honest we truly accomplish much less than we give ourselves credit for and overestimate our importance to God’s plan for the world on a whole. There are times when prayers and penance in secret accomplish much more than any active work. Doing so is a legitimate vocation.

    Another thing to note is that EF vocations are rarely desired in staunch OF cirles as is often testified. Often they are viewed with suspicion and their God given desires are trivialized or pushed to the back of the closet and must be hidden. Forcing certain people into a situation where a seed planted in their heart by the Creator is starved or must be denied any light or water in certain instances can destroy or derail their vocation. If EF vocations were truly desired in OF circles then provisions would be made for an authentic expression of their spirituality (remember the Church Herself regards this desire as authentic and legitemate). They would also be sought after which can hardly be said to be the case currently.

    However instead we have Latin relegated to the dust bins in many seminaries as well as a much traditional Catholic piety and teaching (especially an emphasis on traditional/ orthodox philosophy and theology). Many seminarians are forced to keep any inclinations towards such things hidden and virtually all spritual formation (at least of the orthodox and sound nature) must be supplied by the seminarians themselves often. Denying prospective religious vocations sound spiritual formation is criminal (and can be gravely sinful). Trying to force a prospective vocation to go through such lacking spiritual formation may frustate the primary purpose they were created- to know an love God and be with Him for eternity. Saving souls, evangelizing, etc are all secondary to that. Besides a person who does not know the way to save their self is a very poor guide for someone else who seeks to.

    If one’s primary vocation is unfilfulled then they never can fulfill their religious vocation. If the OF circles do not have as many vocations maybe it is high time to sit down and do some serious soul searching as to why that is. Something is not right and needs to be fixed. God blesses the sowing of good seed. Yes there are dry years but the OF has been experiencing a famine for decades. Siphoning off EF vocations will not fix the problem (besides many OF parishes/ dioceses do not want EF priests/ seminarians- sadly a fact).

    I can say this as someone currently in the discernment process and who has some experience of the discernment process in a few OF religious orders and some exposure to certain local dioceses. And yes I did try the OF route before the EF and have had to learn that God doesn’t require us to move the world- just to stand in the little corner where He wants us to be and do the little things He asks us to. No souls can be saved with out the grace of God first softening the heart.

    Yes some EF vocations are not from traditional Catholic familes as you said but a good number are. Apparently more than you realize (and no I am not one but know its much more common in certain areas than others). In many ways I wish I had had the benefit of being raised by devout parents. I would have never offended God as much most likely and would have done much more for His service than the little I have done for Him to date. Do not underestimate the value of a devout upbringing. It is a great grace which can last a lifetime as well as showering grace upon many others during that life.

  55. @ cdnpriest
    God bless you. Thank you for all your prayers and labors for Holy Mother Church in secret when the door is closed. You will be in my prayers- please pray for us.

  56. Granny says:

    I wonder if we would all be going through this angst for the last 40+ years if moving to the vernacular meant we read from the right side of the missal and not the left. I don’t think we would be in as much turmoil. The ‘changes’ were not necessary at all, IMHO that is. As to using a missal at mass… I can if I go to the parish that has the EF but not at my local parish.

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