I has just left Rome, I think, or I would have been at this event, to be sure.
(Rome) to a scandal occurred in Rome during the presentation of the conference proceedings on the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum on the 10th of October at the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum) during proceedings of the presentation of collected papers of the Third Conference on Summorum Pontificum, which had taken place in 2011. Raymond Cardinal Burke, Professor Giovanni Turco and the Vaticanist Sandro Magister three speakers were present.
[…]
Finally, Sandro Magister gave his contribution as a lecture on which Katholisches.info already reported (see separate report Pope Francis and the Liturgy – “Pure Functional Access” Reservations to Tradition, weakness in the knees before the Lord ). Master analyzed in a critical manner, the previous decisions of Pope Francis in the Liturgy: The ban for celebration in the old rite by the Franciscans of the Immaculate, the dismissal of all five consultants for the Office of Papal Liturgical Celebrations, who were close to the liturgical understanding of Benedict XVI., the refusal to genuflect in the Holy Mass at the words of consecration, although from papal Mass to papal Mass always newly master of ceremonies Guido Marini always included the two relevant points and finally the halting by CDF, that they no longer check the bizarre special forms in the Mass of the Neocatechumenal Way, as Benedict XVI. had ordered. Magister has also expressed the opinion that the Pope is “friendly” to everyone, “except with the traditionalists.”
“Scandal Currently The Dominant Characteristic of Climate in Rome”
The lecture finally came to a scandal. Magister so openly expressed his criticism of Pope Francis, that Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Pozzo had to leave the room. “The response of Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Pozzo is indicative of the currently prevailing climate in Rome,” the website Chiesa e Postconcilio (Church and Post-Conciliar). “Was it because of the time for both of them or was it simply a precaution, because of the polite but harsh criticism by Magister of Pope Francis? The withdrawal of a Cardinal during a major event is something glaring. All interpretations are allowed, “said the Spanish Catholic blogger Francisco de la Cigoña.
Okay! I am on the road, and so I can’t get too far into this.
I don’t vouch for the translation or the facts of the evening. However, I thought I should bring it to your attention. You can read the rest there.
Remember, friends. Those of you who uphold the traditional ways had better tread lightly, and with a smile. It is still possible to lose everything.
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Sometimes I think that there are a few traditionalists who would like to provoke a fight with Pope Francis so as to justify a schism.
Card. Burke has been supportive of the Latin Mass. If he felt the need to leave, I have to imagine that Magister stepped over the line. Even if what he was saying was factually correct, a scholarly conference on the liturgy doesn’t seem like the appropriate venue to air one’s grievances over this or that misstep or perceived slight. That amounts to a personal attack.
I couldn’t agree with you more Patrick-K. This seems to be a basic matter of lack of prudence.
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Agreed, Fr. Z. we should always have a smile. But I don’t think our Lord exactly treaded lightly when it came to the faith. Besides, we cannot lose everything. None of it is Pope Francis’ to confiscate.
So, I guess the question is, did they leave because they love Francis and genuinely resented the negative comments? Or did they leave because, as Trad supporters, they fear Francis and know they can’t afford to be seen as connected to any criticism of him?
Father, I would like to ask you to refrain from spreading these unconfirmed rumors. Eponymous Flower posted a translation of a news story originally reported on the German news site http://www.katholisches.info. , which failed to provide a source even after being asked to do so. It just makes the situation even more tense.
I would say Sandro Magister is merely ‘making a mess’ as Pope Francis has encouraged. The things the Pope says and does, or fails to do are a cause for alarm. Can anyone say the Church would be recognizable to anyone from say 100 years ago? What would the faithful from years past say about the actions and words of the Pope? Why does he need to bash traditionalism at every turn? Why nothing about those who have injected poison into the Church during the last 50 years? Why are we still be fed the fallacy Vatican II has been such a glorious council that has reaped great fruit? I don’t suggest we bash the Pope, but at the same time, let us not be pollyannas and be deceived into thinking the liberal/progressive faction in the Church is enjoying the base of their power growing. I will continue to pray for His Holiness. I believe he desires to do good, but the way he goes about it… Domine, misere nobis. +JMJ+
Lose everything to whom? By whose power will “everything” be taken away, and by what right? Is the implication here that the Pope will cause me to “lose everything” if I don’t smile?
This is a line of reasoning that I find contradictory to other lines of reasoning commonly propounded on this blog. For instance: (1) if the Pope will not—or has no desire to—[further] curtail the liberalization of “traditional ways” (Summorum, etc., etc.) then neither my smile nor my scowl will make one iota of difference; and (2) treading lightly and smiling seem antithetical to the Maquis ways of lio that are recommended to us on a regular basis.
On the other hand, if the Pope does have a distaste for the “traditional ways”, and moreover if this manifests as designs to [further] curtail these “ways”, then I think it is unjust to pin the blame for “losing everything” on little laymen and women who did not shut up and smile, but instead were not afraid to make a mess.
Now is the time for sympathetic priests to be prudent. Be thankful for the privilege of celebrating the EF Mass and sacraments, but don’t talk about these things in mixed groups. Don’t pretend everything is fine, but don’t behave like we’re at war, either.
There is no Catholic God. The Church’s moral teaching is disjointed. We shouldn’t obsess about abortion. Youth unemployment is the greatest evil in the world today. Let’s look into communion for the divorced and remarried? Everyone has their own conception of good and evil which they should be encouraged to follow.
Is there no Paul in the Church today to rebuke Peter?
Choirmaster,
The case of the Friars of the Immaculate should answer your objections. As long as the traditionally-minded among us emphasize fraternity and charity, we’ll be fine. But if we forget public virtue, we give others an excuse to suppress our spiritual privileges.
@jbas: Has it been demonstrated as fact that it was the traditionally-minded friars who were agitating and antagonistic?
Furthermore, according to what we learned from Summorum pontificum, are the “traditional ways” something we receive from the Pope’s magnanimity, such that they can or should be “taken away” as punishment for not being nice?
jbas,
Amen!
Having the truth isn’t always enough. Sometimes you have to persuade others who don’t understand and you have a much better chance doing it with honey than with vinegar. That’s life.
Well stated Clinton R.
Sandro Magister is just stating many of the concerns that are voiced on this web site. That is pretty huge that Card. Burke and Bp. Pozzo walked out with-out commenting. It will be very interesting to see if anything comes out on this or whether it is just brushed under the carpet. Hopefully the Pope addresses the situation to clarify his position on these items that are of consern to those who worship at a TLM mass. I give Sandro Magister cudos for makeing those statements in front of Card. Burke and Bp. Pozzo it doesn’t sound like he sugar coated anything, well done sir. It is also interesting that he was born on the feast day of the Guardian Angels. I am tired of the song and dance going on between Rome and the Traditionalists, the music has stopped the dancers are looking at the stage let us see if the Holy Father shows up and if he does what he has to say. Bishop Feelay has recently said his piece, now Sandro Magister, hopefully we hear something other than crickets from Rome. This ain’t about feeding the poor or being simply the “Bishop of Rome” it is about being the Captain of the Bark of Peter, the Church established by Jesus Christ.
Very well put, Clinton.
I think battle lines are being drawn, some are running for cover, and some very dark days are ahead for Holy Mother Church.
>>> Remember, friends. Those of you who uphold the traditional ways had better tread lightly, and with a smile. It is still possible to lose everything.
With respect, this type of comment is the thing that scares the rank and file in the pews at TLMs. Rome keeps coming out with promise after promise to allow and protect the TLMs, but there always seems to be an implicit asterisk that “it’s still possible to lose everything”.
A good example is the 25th anniversary of the FSSP. At the founding of the FSSP, the Vatican said that is wasn’t giving the FSSP a Bishop because it’s too small, and if it had been the size of the SSPX (around 200 priests at the time) the FSSP would need it’s own Bishop. Now the FSSP has long since past it’s 200 priest mark, so where is the Bishop promised?
Another example is why are the FSSP parishes owned by the local Diocese? The FSSP does all the hard work building a parish and raising funds, but it gets deeded to the local Bishop. Say the Diocese gets a new Bishop, then the new Bishop decided he wants to stop the TLM, dissolve the parish, and sell the property to fill his coffers. Well, there isn’t anything the FSSP or the parishioners who gave the money can do in most states (in Texas and a few other states local church members have ownership rights in disputes over church property). If a new Pope were elected and in one stroke of the pen abolished the FSSP and ordered parishes converted to the new Mass or closed down, the FSSP would be starting over at zero in many cases.
@jbas: Allow me to flip this around: when those who scorn me for upholding traditional ways fail to smile at me or tread lightly, would I be right to think that the Pope should “take away” their permission to celebrate the sacraments according to the Novus Ordo? And when that doesn’t happen, can I legitimately offer that up as an injustice I’ve suffered?
This is basically where I have a disagreement. It’s not that I believe traditionally-minded folks should be cranky and mean, only that, regardless of anyone’s behavior or justification, the “traditional ways” are not a “treat” or “privilege” that flows from the person of the Pope, such that they can be withheld or withdrawn in retribution.
MarkG,
The FSSP has never asked for and has no desire for its own bishop(s). I know this from the mouth of the founders.
Be thankful for for being allowed to celibrate the mass of all time? Are you kidding me? What is going on now is why the mass never should have been messed with to begin with. The new mass has put the Church in sand, it is constantly shifting and changing it is supposed to be on a Rock. Take ten masses in your dioceses offered in the Novus Ordo and compare that to 10 TLM masses and which one has the greatest consistancy? Sand vs. Rock
Those who love tradition can be good, little boys and girls, but if “Team Spirit of Vatican II” is determined to push forward with the “fruits of Council”, then it’s really out of their hands. The Vatican holds the power to do what it wants and the new guard is certainly not enthralled with the traditional ways. If you need any proof, just look at the FFI. A few malcontents whined and the Vatican machinery went into action and placed the order under the watchful eye of Cardinal Aviz. Reports say Ratzinger sees this as a “vulnus” or wound against SP, by the way.
Father Zuhlsdorf is right, though, that tradition minded Catholics should be respectful, but it’s a two way street. Is the Bishop of Rome helping to heal the divide with comments like pelagian, restorationist, or legalist? I don’t think so. Some say his entire view of tradition has been affected by Bishop Williamson and that’s somewhat understandable, but I would like to think the Pope is above stereotyping. After all, Williamson isn’t even a member of the SSPX anymore so what does he have to do with those who attend SP approved Masses?
Who am I to judge, though?
Cornelius a Lapide († 1637) wrote:
“Superiors may be admonished by their subordinates in all humility and charity so that truth may be defended: this is the basis (Galatians 2, 11) on which St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, St. Gregory, St. Thomas and many others who are quoted support this opinion. They teach quite unequivocally that St. Peter, although superior in authority to St. Paul, was admonished by him. St. Gregory rightly states that, “Peter remained silent so that, being first in the hierarchy of the Apostles, he might equally be first in humility.” St. Augustine writes, “By showing that superiors admit that they may be rebuked by their subordinates, St. Peter gave posterity an example of saintliness more noteworthy than that given by St. Paul, although the latter showed, nonetheless, that it is possible for subordinates to have the boldness to resist their superiors without fear, when in all charity they speak out in the defense of truth.”“ (Commentary Ad Gal., II, 11.)
hmmm…Reading the posts above has caused that old jibe about someone being “more Catholic than the Pope” to spring to mind.
As an old Russian History geek, I’m also reminded of the virulent reaction of the Old Believers to the Petrine (Peter I, the Great) reforms. Soon those arch-conservatives were without Bishops, Priests or Deacons as a result of their adamant grip on an ossified and sclerotic refusal to countenance any change whatsoever. In any event, it always struck me as a foolish reaction that accomplished nothing but show up that sort of radical petrification as a road to perdition. I wonder if we are seeing the same sort of thing developing now in Catholic conservative ranks?
I would guess that Magister is upset about the stonewalling of the stories he broke. I haven’t heard anything about Ricca and Chaouqui being replaced.
The Prelate of the Gay Lobby
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350561?eng=y
Ricca and Chaouqui, Two Enemies in the House
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350582?eng=y
And what about the status of the 330 page report concerning the Gay Lobby in the Vatican. Supposedly Cardinals Julian Herranz, Joseph Tomko, and Salvatore De Giorgi gave the report to Pope Benedict. Is it going to be covered up?
It would seem to me that as a matter of protocol the archbishops had no option other than to walk out when the pope was being directly criticized. I don’t know what Magister’s motivation is for being so critical; he seems to have taken a subject that effects an infinitesimal proportion of 1.25 billion Catholics and made it a cause celebre.
@frjim4321: I have no doubt that you’re right. The archbishops would have no option other than to excuse themselves, for now.
I’m not sure what you mean by “infinitesimal”, unless you are switching the subject of the conversation from the Pope’s “off the cuff” remarks, which have bearing on all those 1.25 billion you cite. If you are speaking of the traditionally-minded Catholics (of whom, by the way, you have absolutely no idea their numbers, be they significant or infinitesimal) then the answer is that Magister was speaking at their own conference, and as such this was the issue of the day in the venue prepared for it.
“What is going on now is why the mass never should have been messed with to begin with.”
I don’t know about that. The NO certainly displays its share of abuses…but I have a hard time believing that the offending parties could not have created just as much distortion under the TLM. It might be a saving grace that the sacred liturgy was rescued from the hands of those who perform clown masses, employ rock musicians, or invite women to assist in the elevation.
I agree in the need to “reform the reform”, to re-establish an element of splendor and dignity and reverence in the mass. But, having attended both TLM and NO on a regular basis, I would never say that either constituted the “best we can do”.
Cardinal Burke and Bishop Pozzo seem to have no problems proclaiming or hearing the hard truth, so I don’t think that they would leave the room unless they truly thought Magister stepped over the line.
That being said, the Pope is not beyond criticism and if St Paul didn’t rebuke the Peter or St Catherine didn’t rebuke the Pope for staying in Avignon, the Church would have been in trouble. Tip toeing over hard truths only entrenches the consequences of that negligence. Yes there is prudence involved, but prudence involves both knowing when to not act as well as when to act. If saints had limited themselves to the first half of prudence, the faith would have been greatly impoverished.
That being said, the steps for fraternal (or even paternal) correction have always been the same. First take it up with the person themselves. Then bring several witnesses. Then submit to the judgment of the Church. Pope Francis has been giving out interviews like there’s no tomorrow. Has he even bothered to ask the Pope for an interview or request and audience? If not, a public rebuking is out of line. Has the Pope rejected his attempts and told him to go play in the mud with the pigs? St. Francis had the proper response to that unjust rebuking. It is possible to submit without being a door mat and still poking fun at your accuser. But if the response is simple shunning, then keep knocking. even if it is through an open letter that’s repeatedly posted and updated.
Sigh, we are desperate to throw away everything that we have built up this past few years. And in the process, prove that every stereotype used against those who share our interests was bang on the money.
“I have a hard time believing that the offending parties could not have created just as much distortion under the TLM.”
You are on to something here. The Novus Ordo was introduced in 1970, however elements of it began to be introduced earlier. Nonetheless, things like guitar Masses, communion in the hand, etc. began in certain places as early as 1964-66, when they were definitely not allowed by law. It was an attitude of experimentation more than anything else, but some of these things did happen with what was still technically the Trid Mass.
Confusing times.
If you want to see some of the confusion take a look at this clip from Elvis’ last movie “A Change of Habit” from the late 60’s in which he sings and plays guitar at Mass while the priest seems to say the offertory prayers ad orientem at the old altar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-S3K6wXYpg
anilwang,
Excellent points all around.
pmullane:
If our strategy involves reliance on everyone, everywhere acting in a constructive manner all the time, it is not a good strategy. People screw up. That is life.
Also, if the opposition is justified at throwing out all of our work based on any appearance of intemperance or impropriety, it is going to get thrown out eventually, one way or another.
This is the only place I know to get reliable insights into what is going on in my church. Without this blog I would have no idea, only what I had before it, a gnawing, terrible sense of things gone wrong, with no idea whatsoever of why that is. Thanks to Fr. Z., this blog, I can now find out something, and read, and discover, and see things debated and discussed. I have not yet read anything here that has made me want to run into the street to meet oncoming traffic. What it has done is inform me, in a way that no other Catholic website has done, made me feel on the “inside” at times. What a privilege and a blessing, for me, always in the dark. Fr. Z. is traveling. He has to be quick right now, but he has passed along a tidbit of some interest. Thank you Fr. Z.! If you are traveling, God be with you and bring you home safely.
I think a lot of those “experiments” in the mass came from the modernists in the Church that felt they had a achieved a great victory with Vatican II and these “experiments” just like communion in the hand, getting rid of kneeling rails and the priest saying mass facing the people (ad populi) were all the first signs of the “Spirit of Vatican II” Hans Kung was one of the first to try the new auditorium ad populi style in the 60’s. Vatican II did not create the moderist movement in the Church is was simply a huge victory for the modernist movement in the Church.
The problem I see both inside and outside of the Church is that the only legitimate conversation or debate taking place is occurring among faithful and Tradition minded folks and as a result you see the constant back and forths as you see in the comments here. Which all of that is fine and good. a sincere debate is not a bad thing. But the problem our side has that the Progressive or Modernist does not is that we are so willing to play by a different set of rules that the other side sets for us and then throw our own overboard when they arent willing to play by those same rules. What Magister said, as reported, is all 100% true. The fact that tradition minded bishops would feel the need to excuse themselves for statements of fact, does not at all bode well for us. We need more leaders inside the Church to begin standing up to the destruction. It can’t always just be a layman or Bishop Fellay. As someone else said, where is our Paul? Pope Francis deserves the criticisms he had received this far.
Cosmos:
Do we have to live down to everyone’s expectation of us all the time. I love the Extraordinary Form, I love the beauty and richness of our traditions, and I want to share that love with others, but I’m utterly turned off by these so called lovers of tradition and the way that they have reacted to Pope Francis. The way that people are willing to take his every utterance and wilfully misinterpret them. The way that now we don’t like the new Pope means that we don’t have to listen to him, and let him teach us.
It’s all very tiresome and counterproductive, and it reads like many people would rather retreat to the comfort of their little enclaves than actually work hard and try and bring those treasures to their brothers and sisters.
Perhaps the talk was just running over on time, and the Cardinal and Archbishop had other appointments to keep! This is how rumors start, and spread.
I don’t know why Cardinal Burke and Bishop Pozzo left the talk, but I do know this: If members of the Catholic Church have to continually fret about the orthodoxy of the Roman Pontiff or his friendliness to a form of the Mass that was gloriously celebrated for centuries, something is terribly awry. All of this gets very tiring. How bad off is the Church when you have to beg God that the Pope to be elected will be clear, orthodox and at least friendly to the Church’s traditional spiritual and liturgical patrimony? All I can do is shake my head and ask, “What next?”
Somehow, I don’t think cheerfulness, or a lack thereof, has much to do with this situation. http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-way-to-exile-purge-against.html
By all means, be cheerful, but don’t harbor the expectation that it will do much to forestall any Progressivist pogroms.
Pmullane,
I second your emotion. :) I, for one, found Bishop Fellay’s comments akin to a temper tantrum.
My only point was that the deck is stacked against us. No matter how much craziness is committed in the name of the spirit of VII, that position is seemingly never discredited. It is just declared a limited abboration or a non-events and the whole experiment just keeps chugging along. However, when some Traditionalists get out of line, its a reflection on the whole movement, including the ancient liturgy. That too is tiresome!
It’s a troubling time, for sure.
Eh, remember how people freaked out about the empty chair at the symphony and thought a big change was coming in the Curia? As I have said before the world as we know it is dying, perhaps even in its death throes and, although the liberal/progressive crowd are the ones leading the charge toward its destruction they don’t seem to realize that they will be taken down as well in the mayhem. Once the wealth of the western world that has made all of their conniving possible disappears then their schemes will go with it. It will not be fun, but all of this seems to be a part of the inscrutable will of God. Pray the Rosary, meditate on the mysteries and do it every freaking day.
Cheers Cosmos, I agree its difficult time, but ’twas ever thus.
God bless.
Fr. Z: “Remember, friends. Those of you who uphold the traditional ways had better tread lightly, and with a smile. It is still possible to lose everything.”
Could not this also apply to Herr Obama? But I believe the real solution should not be to ‘tread lightly’, but rather to ‘tread more cunningly’ and learn why precisely the children of darkness have succeeded to such an extent. This is war, and intelligence, espionage & cunning are required after the example of Our Lord when accusations were leveled against Him to ensnare Him.
frjim4321: ” I don’t know what Magister’s motivation is for being so critical; he seems to have taken a subject that effects an infinitesimal proportion of 1.25 billion Catholics and made it a cause celebre.”
WRONG! This ‘subject’ affects the fate of entire billions of people on this planet, Catholic & non-Catholic, and those yet to come; whether they know it, want it to, or not!
pmullane: “It’s all very tiresome and counterproductive, and it reads like many people would rather retreat to the comfort of their little enclaves than actually work hard and try and bring those treasures to their brothers and sisters.”
That’s kind of hard to do with the immense opposition to it. But it’s not just a matter of just the Mass, but also the faith that the Mass represents and encourages. The Spirit of VII folks don’t like TLM or anything traditional for a good reason: It is highly symbolic of the adoration of God and law and morality and submission and hierarchical order that they so bitterly hate. Were it only a matter of TLM just going through motions that are meaningless and no different than the NO, they wouldn’t care. Pope Francis fired first by making vague statements that seem to put down traditionalists and TLM. He has not clarified what he meant. Only he can do that. If he isn’t, he either has not received the news of the fallout of his statements, or doesn’t care because the general interpretations of what he said might just, maybe, be his own actual opinion? Who knows? What we do know is that the spirit of VII folk have been emboldened by what he said and are on the offensive, as is the secular world.
Robbie says: “Is the Bishop of Rome helping to heal the divide with comments like pelagian, restorationist, or legalist?”
The problem is that the Pope has been sold a bill of goods WRT the pre-Vatican II church. Part of it can be blamed on the seminaries and Spirit of Vatican II distortion that much of the laity and priesthood bought into without even knowing what Vatican II actually said, and the distorted revisionist history of the pre-Vatican II church. Unfortunately, many priests and bishops don’t know they’ve been sold a bill of goods, and many have seen the rise of Protestantism in their own lands as proof the Vatican II was meant to help Catholicism to be more Protestant.
Fighting this sort of brainwashing is hard as anyone who has relatives who believe they are being faithful Catholics when they are simply Protestants the just happen to have a devotion to Mary and a fondness for the “symbolic Eucharist”. But it needs to be done.
Part of the problem lies with Traditionalists themselves. I know a few Catholics who were raised in TLM and forced by their parents to attend the Legion of Mary and other pre-Vatican II apostolates, and stayed in TLM until the mid 1990s. In every case, these Catholics are now lukewarm and more interested in reading self-help books and things from the Dali Lama than anything from the patrimony of the faith. What’s the cause? They claim the answer to every honest questions was a rebuking and an admonition to it because the Church said so. This went beyond matters of faith into things such as geocentrism, evolution, and reading anything without an imprimatur. Eventually they came to the conclusion that besides basic spirituality common to all religions, Catholicism has arbitrary answers and nitpicking restrictions to irrelevant problems and one must never ask questions.
That is not *true* Traditional Catholicism, but it is the image of Traditional Catholicism that Traditionalists presented to them. Sadly, they now parrot this misrepresentation to anyone who asks, so Traditional Catholicism is further discredited. If the Pope’s contact with Traditional Catholicism is of this type, then he will see the Spirit of Vatican II, even if it was wrong, as a reawakening of a dying Church. Correcting the Pope’s misconceptions will take *a lot* of time, contact with modern Traditional Catholic near saints, and a correction of the invalid theology that does not see total submission to Christ in the mass as anything other than an act of humility.
@anilwang
I am truly sorry that your friends who were raised in the TLM were not better catechized.
I grew up in a Catholic school from 1961-1969, so I was there during the changes brought about by VII. We went to Mass every day, had religion class every day, and once a week the priest would come and give religion class. But, as I said in another post, I really did not learn my faith other than the very basics (Sacraments, mortal vs. venial sin, etc.)
Since I and my children have been with the SSPX, we have learned much about Church history. We have adult (and separate children’s) catechism every Sunday. My childrens’ teachers and I have tried to give them an understanding of why the Church teaches what it does, why we believe what we believe, without just saying “because the Church says so.” Sometimes this is hard, because occasionally it goes against our human inclinations.
However, I think it is also incumbent upon us – especially adults – to study our faith. Church history, the doctors of the Church, the lives of the Saints, etc. Unless we do this, we really have no one else to blame for our lack of understanding of Church teachings, imo.
I find it very disheartening that many Catholics today do not really know or understand Church teachings, and are led astray by that lack of knowledge.
Clearly a can of worms has been opened by Sandro Magister. I have received his blog posts for several years now and I now find that I am also receiving posts which are only in Italian from him. My knowledge of that language is rather sketchy so I find myself just deleting these posts. Do others also find this ?
“he seems to have taken a subject that effects an infinitesimal proportion of 1.25 billion Catholics ”
That’s where you’re wrong Fr Jim. An erosion of a solid ars celebrandi culture affects ALL Catholics whether they care or not. It affects those who DON’T care even more adversely than those who do.
anilwang:
As regards your acquaintances who were raised Trad and who went lukewarm–it sounds from your description like they were raised in an overly strict manner. We now know that if you are a control freak with your kids that they will defect from the faith. If we’re too lax they will also defect.
They need firm boundaries, to know that they are allowed to question things and that their opinion matters, even if it is overruled. This stuff isn’t my opinion, but childhood development experts have highlighted getting this stuff right if we want our example and word to have the maximum impact on our kids. (ie, agree with us that Catholicism is awesome and that they should foster a relationship with Jesus Christ and have large families of their own when they grow up)
prayerisouronlyhope: some good insights there. By the way, I love the idea of simultaneous-but-separate catechism classes for kids/adults. If we want our kids to love and learn the faith, then there is no greater example we can set for them than to be learning about the faith ourselves, too.
There is a great mass of apologetics stuff out there in books and the internet. (eg, Peter Kreeft, Daniel Lane Craig etc) that we should have access to. Our kids (and, for that matter, any enquiring non-Catholic friends) deserve better than “Because the Church says so!!!”
The last quoted paragraph is all over the place and leaves me doubtful.
If Magister was out of line, then I would be glad to know people left. Some of you want to cheer on Paul as he rebukes Peter, but forget that Paul could be wrong, too. We can’t give people an automatic pass just because they say what we want to hear–the devil eats that right up.
Reading the comments by many traditionalists on this blog has given me a new appreciation and love for Vatican II and the ordinary form of the Mass. Your comments have changed my attitude completely. I’ll bet I’m not the only one on the blogosphere either.
Look in the mirror and find the real enemy. :)
jbas writes:
Be thankful for the privilege of celebrating the EF Mass and sacraments
It’s not a “privilege,” and by calling it such you are showing how far your liturgical thought is from that of the Holy Father’s immediate predecessor.
Johnno writes: “The Spirit of VII folks don’t like TLM or anything traditional for a good reason: It is highly symbolic of the adoration of God and law and morality and submission and hierarchical order that they so bitterly hate. Were it only a matter of TLM just going through motions that are meaningless and no different than the NO, they wouldn’t care.”
How true. We have not been taught to imitate the obedience of Our Lord, of Our Blessed Mother, of the saints. I fear only a dire punishment by God could bring us to our senses and show us that we cannot enter the Kingdom without true and right humility and gratitude. Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, conform our hearts to Yours.
The case of the Friars of the Immaculate should answer your objections.
I encourage you to read the posts on the web site of the Franciscans of the Immaculate to see if what you write above applies to their situation.
http://www.immacolata.com/index.php/en/
Found this article:
Francis Has Not Contradicted Benedict’s Reforms, Say Franciscans of the Immaculate (6870)
The order’s spokesman said the danger of ‘heresy and disobedience,’ not the traditional Latin Mass, deserves blame for the Vatican decree.
by CNA/EWTN NEWS 07/31/2013
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader#ixzz2hwpjBXO5
In regards to not genuflecting at Mass, could Pope Francis not have knee or back problems?
In regards to not further investigating the Neocatechumenal Way’s Mass, could it not be that Pope Francis has enough information from Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus on this subject.
At the beginning of his pontificate, Pope Francis asked for prayers. Let us pray for him.
This is the proper spirit to have in the house: dread what Francis the Humble do next. Sounds like an atmosphere in Stalin’s Politburo.
Truly the Christ’s Church is at the best of times when the faithful flock is advised by one of its shepherds to keep the mouth shut and smile, unless His Humbleness takes all away.
Makes me sick to my stomach.
The Pope speaks bluntly. So should we. Respect the office, yes, but also speak the truth. In this day of the Internet, especially, when texts are shared quickly and widely, we should not operate out of “fear” of “losing ground.” Truth has rights, and the Holy Father’s statements have been confusing if not scandalous. Clarity of expression is a necessity of leadership. If we are to have another Paul VI, at least we can have the courage to call out his mis-statements. God bless Magister, and maybe it takes a laymen to speak out without fear of reprisal. Francis’ “Emperor New Clothes” are getting tiresome. Let Elton John praise him and Vanity Fair make him cover boy. Faithful Catholics need to be brave for the truth, not “cautious” that they lose ground.
As a P.S., the line “Are You More Catholic Than the Pope?” is rather comical, given the Pope’s determined interviews to appeal to non-Catholics by dissing traditional Catholic postures. Am I?I have no idea, since the POpe seems to take joy is obscuring just how “Catholic” he is… Unfair? Perhaps, but given the fact a large chunk of very devoted Catholics are scandalized, folks who take no delight in dissenting from their leader, you have to wonder what in fact is really on the Holy Fther’s mind. It simply is not very difficult to communicate clearly if one wants to. For a leader like a Pope to be coy is rather disconcerting.
jm,
“Are you more Catholic than the Pope?” your right that should be a joke but what I would fear would be a worse joke would be “Is the Pope Catholic?” A good baptist friend of mine told me the other day that he really likes this Pope, not because he is Catholic but because he sounds Protestant. I had to try to convince him that the Pope was not saying that anyone can follow their own concience but must form their conciense in the truth that has been handed down through the teachings of the Church. His response was that was not what he said. I said, I know but he can’t change that teaching. He said that’s not what he said. How can you argue against that. What a mess. Top that with the Republicans caving today and things are not looking good. The Church is Protestant and America is a athiestic/socialist country beautiful, I guess the Masons have won, let that games begin.
Beware of frjim4321’s comments. He is a priest of the Obama persuasion who in California Catholic Daily always shifts the conversation to a different direction than what is being discussed. A very effective progressive advocate.
ev writes:
Francis Has Not Contradicted Benedict’s Reforms, Say Franciscans of the Immaculate (6870)
The order’s spokesman said the danger of ‘heresy and disobedience,’ not the traditional Latin Mass, deserves blame for the Vatican decree.
This article is based on an interview to CNA that Fr. Bruno denied giving.
http://www.immacolata.com/index.php/en/35-apostolato/fi-news/233-regarding-a-cna-article
Again, I strongly encourage people to read what the Franciscans of the Immaculate are saying on their own web site about this issue.
Pingback: PopeWatch: Keep Smiling! | The American Catholic
RJHighland,
It seems hard to imagine that most ‘orthodox Protestants’ would not agree that each and all “must form their concience in the truth that has been handed down through the teachings of the Church” – while disagreeing about whether certain teachings are sufficiently handing down the truth.
But perhaps that is grossly to underestimate the effects of sorts of ‘pneumaticism’, often happily a as yet instilled with much ‘ orthodox Catholic heritage’ (still being properly Trinitarian, Incarnational, following Christian articulation of natural law).
It makes me recall I have never read Ronald Knox’s study, Enthusiasm, right through… another apt bookstore recommendation for a recent post?
“In regards to not genuflecting at Mass, could Pope Francis not have knee or back problems?”
You mean, besides two hip replacements and only one working lung?
I emcee for a priest at a TLM who only genuflects when he is at the altar, and can lean on the mensa while so doing, having had spinal surgery and two minor strokes in the last few years. As to the Friars of the Immaculate, the temporary discontinuation of the Traditional Mass is consistent with the norms that apply to religious communities, where permission from the superior would be required. This is clearly spelled out in the clarification document that followed the motu proprio. It also applies to a specific community, and a specific set of circumstances.
I don’t even know what CCA is, let alone am I a part of it. Fr. Jim.
He didn’t look uncomfortable on his hands and knees during Holy Thursday Mass. That’s another subject altogether, but I digress. I simply mean to point out that he seems perfectly capable of genuflection.
My dear friends, let us not tear one another to pieces like growling beasts; this is unseemly. Instead, recommending ourselves to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, let us pray for one another, encourage and admonish one another in Christ.
If something wrong or improper is said or done, it is good to address the wrong in a businesslike way, without pointing fingers or imputing motives. It is better to speak as if a brother inadvertently fell into a mistake, and one very similar to an even worse fault I myself committed not long ago. To stick with the facts, and address the issues, and not to attack the person. There is a difference!
As to the Friars of the Immaculate, the temporary discontinuation of the Traditional Mass is consistent with the norms that apply to religious communities, where permission from the superior would be required. This is clearly spelled out in the clarification document that followed the motu proprio. It also applies to a specific community, and a specific set of circumstances.
The Major Superior of the FFI is Fr. Stephano Manelli who had extended this permission (while not “imposing” the TLM as some reports claimed). This permission was revoked — so it is not consistent with the norms of Summorum Pontificum, which leaves the decision in the hands of the Major Superiors.
>>> Remember, friends. Those of you who uphold the traditional ways had better tread lightly, and with a smile. It is still possible to lose everything.
Lose everything? No Father, as long as one priest is offering the TLM somewhere in a basement, a crypt or a cave, everything is not lost.
Hmm, I see Fr.Z’s last line has earned a Rorate rebuke…
That said, when I used to be a civil servant, the protocol of my department was that if you went to any event, you stayed for the whole thing whether short, long or somewhere inbetween. If you really had to leave early, you generally said why to your host – but not necessarily to anyone else.
Hmm, I see Fr.Z’s last line has earned a Rorate rebuke…
They’re telling people not to scaremonger? Now that’s funny.