Msgr. Bux tells it as he sees it. WDTPRS POLL for SEMINARIANS ONLY.

Over at Messa in Latino there are some posts about the talks being given at the conference going on in Rome for Summorum Pontificum. One of the talks was by Msgr. Nicola Bux, originator of the Bux Protocol.  Bux speak, as we say in Italian, “fuor dai denti”, bluntly.

Bux’s talk was about the older form of Ordination of priests in the pre-Conciliar Pontificale Romanum.

Messa in Latino didn’t give even a sketchy account of the talk.  We will get it eventually.  But they did relate a few bullet points.  Here they are.  The subscriber base of the Fishwrap are going to love #2:

  1. The liturgy requires purity of heart and profound humility.  No, therefore, to hamming it up and theatrics.
  2. Where there is abuse of the liturgy, there are certainly grave moral distortions.
  3. Only a bishop and a priest exercise the priesthood, not the deacon.  What is the priesthood?  Mediation between man and God, a role before which priests, if they took stock of it fully, would tremble.
  4. St. Paul wrote to Titus: pure doctrine, sound doctrine, secure doctrine. These are the criteria tp discern true doctrine from false.  And all this is recalled in the old rite of Ordination: how true, therefore, is the rule of Proper of Aquitane: lex orandi, lex credendi.

Yah…. liberals are going to luuuuv #2.

Keep in mind that the new Instruction says that bishops cannot use the old Pontificale Romanum to ordain men who are not members of those specialized institutes we all know about.   Although… although… I bet the Holy See would grant permission were a bishop to request it.

Think about it.

I don’t think many of today’s seminarians would choose the new rite over the old rite once they compare them side by side and think about them for a while.

I would be pleased to receive email from seminarians on this point.   Write to me and tell me.  Seminarians could also canvass their fellows at their seminaries.  Give me the results.  I’ll post them.

QUAERITUR.  Latin Church SEMINARIANS:

If you were given the choice, would you prefer to be ordained with the older, pre-Conciliar form or the newer book, the rite reformed by Paul VI and John Paul II, even in Latin?  Which?

I will preserve your anonymity of course.  Use the contact link on the top header menu and put SEMINARIAN WRITES ABOUT POLL as the subjectYou must tell me what seminary you are from.  I won’t give you up, don’t worry.  I don’t care which option you would choose: I just want an accurate picture.

OLDER RITE: 38
NEWER RITE: 6

UPDATE:

Some are asking to see the older form of ordination.  Sancta Missa has a pdf of an old Pontificale Romanum.


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16 Responses to Msgr. Bux tells it as he sees it. WDTPRS POLL for SEMINARIANS ONLY.

  1. Joseph-Mary says:

    The Franciscans of the Immaculate have had ordinations in the ‘old rite’ in the past couple of years and by such personages as Cardinal Burke and they are not totally dedicated to the TLM exclusively…

  2. Gail F says:

    Wow — #3. “Only a bishop and a priest exercise the priesthood, not the deacon. What is the priesthood? Mediation between man and God, a role before which priests, if they took stock of it fully, would tremble.” So what IS a deacon, then?

  3. moon1234 says:

    This was THE most disappointing part of UE. I sure hope the Pope reconsiders on this point.

  4. Trisagion says:

    @GailF: a deacon is a servant and a minister. He serves and ministers to Christ and His people at the Altar, in the Word and in the works of Charity. At the Altar he, firstly, serves Christ the Priest; in the Word he serves the Body of Christ in the proclaiming the Word of God in the liturgy and in his life; and in charity, he works to bring the love of Christ to the world.

  5. ejcmartin says:

    Re: point #2 A well known cleric has just gone to jail for some nefarious “moral distortions”. He was also notorious (or praiseworthy depending on where one stands) for his progressive liturgy. Hmmmm

  6. Gail F says:

    Trisagion: I know what a deacon does. #3 seems to say in no uncertain terms that a deacon IS something different from a priest. Only priests and bishops “exercise the priesthood.” Considering that a deacon is ordained, and that priests and bishops share this same ordination, the question is: What is a deacon’s ordination and how is it different in kind from a priestly ordination? This is a hot topic among some permanent deacons.

  7. Trisagion says:

    I am aware of the debate – I am a permanent deacon. The debate is based on poor sacramental theology. There is one sacrament of Holy Orders but it is an ordination to different states and for different purposes. By my ordination I am configured to Christ fhe Servant to serve, by ordination to the priesthood a man is configured to Christ the Priest to sanctify, teach and govern. As so often, many of these soi disant debates would be unnecessary if the participants reflected a bit more on the teaching of the Council of Trent and that inestimable vehicle of Sacred Tradition, the Holy Mass in the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite.

  8. TrueLiturgy says:

    Father, I think it would be great if you actually put the OF and EF Rite of Ordination side by side, or at least directed us to them so that we could actually compare them. Thanks.

  9. TrueLiturgy: I think that would be great too. Perhaps someone could do that.

  10. Young Canadian RC Male says:

    Wow it’s only been one day since this went up and already 23 Old vs. 3 New rite. That’s 88%!

  11. Gregory DiPippo says:

    Optime Z., the live-blogger from Messa in Latino did yeoman’s work, so let no-one take this as a criticism: here he has given a bit of a paraphrase of one of the broader theme’s of Don Bux’s talk. Don Bux did refer to “moral distortions”, but he also said at one point (and this is a pretty exact quote) “Lì dove ci sono abusi liturgici, ci sono anche abusi sessuali – Where there are liturgical abuses, there are also acts of sexual abuse,” …followed by thunderous applause! [I am glad for the additional info. I look forward to all the talks in text or audio form.]

  12. JamesA says:

    I missed the poll, Father, but you can add one more seminarian to the OLD rite of ordination tally.

  13. JamesA: Seminarians may, at a certain point, want to learn carefully to read the rubrics. I will highlight them in red.

  14. Fr Deacon Daniel says:

    @ Trisagion – Very well said. I would also add that we deacons do most certainly have a mediating role, albeit distinct from while still in union with those of presbyters and bishops. And I would add that in reflecting upon our own Ordo, there are certainly more than enough reasons to be awed as well by the service we render to the Lord as deacons in His sanctuary.

  15. Gail F says:

    Trisagion: I am interested in hearing more about what you posted, would you mind posting me directly at sgfinke@fuse.net? I have a question and don’t want to take up any more space here.

  16. moon1234 says:

    EF ordination from the movie The Cardinal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbK3TiU-zPw
    (always makes me cry for some reason)

    FSSP Ordination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjcYTHo5rA&NR=1

    Ordinary Form Ordination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGVCE_Mc-U