Wymynprysts yn Mynnysota

In the Star Tribune, ultra-liberal newspaper of my native place, there is an article about wywmwmnyprysts.

It is too long and dull for you, so here are some bits. Let’s have a look with my emphases and comments.

Female priests push Catholic boundaries

ROSE FRENCH, Star Tribune

Dressed in a priestly white robe and green stole, Monique Venne lifted communion bread before an altar — defying centuries of Catholic Church law. [The writer stumbles in the first line: This is not just a matter of law. This is the Church's teaching... the Church's DOC-TRINE. Were it just a "law", or as supporters of the impossible like to call it "policy" it could be changed.  The writer will call them "priests" or "Catholic priests" throughout.]

Despite promises of excommunication from the Vatican, she and six other women in Minnesota say they are legitimate, ordained Catholic priests, fit to celebrate the mass. They trace their status through a line of ordained women bishops back to anonymous male bishops [cowards] in Europe.  [Gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.]

“We love the church, but we see this great wrong,” said Venne, 54, who cofounded Compassion of Christ Church, a Minneapolis congregation that just celebrated its first anniversary. [WOW!  A founder of a CHURCH?  Along with about 15,000 others in the USA.] “Not allowing women to be at the altar is a denigration of their dignity. [False.] We want the church to be the best it can be. If one leaves, one cannot effect change. So we’re pushing boundaries.” [If one leaves.... ?  This from the one who founded a "church" apart from the Catholic Church.  Loopy.]

Minnesota has emerged as a hotbed [found directly under the seething cauldron] for the growing movement to ordain women as priests, with the highest per-capita number of female Catholic priests [No.  They are not "priests".  They probably aren't "catholic" at this point.  And they are "wymyn", now, I think.  No?] in the nation, according to the organization Roman Catholic Womenpriests. Women [not-] priests are working in the Twin Cities, Red Wing, Winona, Clear Lake and soon St. Cloud. The group claims about 70 women priests in the United States and more than 100 worldwide.

Several Protestant denominations have allowed women to be ordained ministers for decades. But the Catholic Church views an all-male priesthood as unchangeable, “based on the example of Jesus, who, even though he had revered relationships with women who were his disciples, chose only men to be his apostles,” said Dennis McGrath, spokesman for the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis.

Women who claim to have been ordained Catholic priests in fact have no relationship to the Catholic Church because their ordination is not valid,” he said.

Dozens of congregations

An increasing number of Catholics disagree with the church on this. In a poll last year by the New York Times and CBS, 59 percent of U.S. Catholics favored letting women become priests, with 33 percent opposed.

That’s encouraging news for Roman Catholic Womenpriests, founded nearly nine years ago in Europe. It began after seven women were ordained aboard a ship on the Danube River by three male bishops. The group claims their ordinations are valid because they conform within the bounds of “apostolic succession.” [How stupid can you get?  That stupid, as a matter of fact!  Being on a river has nothing to do with that.]

“I do believe we are connecting through the original church, which started with the apostles,” said Regina Nicolosi, 69, of Red Wing, who became bishop [ROFL!] for Womenpriests’ Midwest region in 2009.

[...]

The rest is just… frankly… sad.  The rest is just plain sad.

Do you suppose they all have their “ordination tambourines“?

FacebookEmailPinterestGoogle GmailShare/Bookmark

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Goat Rodeos, Lighter fare, Throwing a Nutty and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

55 Responses to Wymynprysts yn Mynnysota

  1. wmeyer says:

    “Probably” not Catholic? Allowing for my advancing age, and fading memory capacity, I seem to recall reading on this very blog some discussion of a pronouncement from one or another of the Congregations at the Vatican that “ordination” of a woman was not grounds for excommunication, but was functionally excommunication late sententiae. My understanding of this is that the wymyn excommunicate themselves, by the act itself. Have I misunderstood? If I am correct in my understanding, it would seem to follow that they cannot be other than outside the Church so long as they persist in their delusions.

  2. rollingrj says:

    I see they have or will have a presence in two other diocesan sees (Winona and St. Cloud). A prayer that the bishops of those two diocese will act swiftly to dispel the confusion and take whatever other action is needed.

  3. catholicmidwest says:

    Not only that, wmeyer, but anything they set up in the way of a “community” can’t be authorized by the local diocese and will be schismatic by definition, simply because it would encourage people to attend something else besides an authorized diocesan mass on Sunday. This is neo-protestantism.

  4. ContraMundum says:

    Question: If we can trick them into saying “Wymynprysts” backwards, will they be forced to return to their own dimension?

  5. Elizabeth D says:

    Well although someone can be spiritually outside the Church technically it’s no longer possible to leave the Catholic Church. Even someone excommunicated is still Catholic, excommunication is a canonical penalty under Catholic canon law to which they continue to be subject. Something who isn’t Catholic can’t be “excommunicated”.

  6. Mundabor says:

    I’d like to know which boundaries have been “pushed”.

    The ladies have merely put themselves outside of these boundaries, period.

    Let’s hope for them repentance intervenes before it’s too late, lest one day they lose those smug faces once and for all.

    Mundabor

    P.s the men in the background do not seem too satisfied, either…

  7. aspiringpoet says:

    “An increasing number of Catholics disagree with the church on this. In a poll last year by the New York Times and CBS, 59 percent of U.S. Catholics favored letting women become priests, with 33 percent opposed.”

    How does one convey to people who don’t understand it that the Catholic Church is NOT a democracy and therefore the number of U.S. Catholics who support this embarrassment is irrelevant?

  8. Clinton says:

    Wymynprysts are to real priests as this Star Tribune article is to actual journalism.
    Just pitiful.

  9. discipulus says:

    Mundabor said; Let’s hope for them repentance intervenes before it’s too late, lest one day they lose those smug faces once and for all.

    I agree, we ought to pray for them before it is to late, and that God’s mercy will find them sooner than later, as for those who support wymyns ordination. I think a lot of fallen away Catholics took part in the poll, so they could be a large part of those who favored letting women become priests.

  10. dallas says:

    A pair turned up at the recent UD (Catholic) Ministry Conference; attended sessions & the Closing Mass, too. Handed out a small piece of literature w. website… Haven’t seen them here before… So odd….

  11. Dax says:

    Reading the comments from the article……….

    I always find it curious that those who demand Scriptural support for aspects of the priesthood (celibacy, men-only, etc.) are most often the ones who ignore what is in the Bible regarding conception, homosexuality and divorce.

  12. ray from mn says:

    How come these wymenpriests don’t have to go to a seminary and study for 8 or more years, getting degrees in philosophy and theology? In their addled minds, the only requirement appears to be “wanting to be a priest.”

    Are wymenpriests required to keep the secrets of the confessional?

    How come it takes four wymenpriests to service their parish in Minneapolis where the Sunday attendance is 15-20 people? What is the collection basket take?

    How come these wymenpriests are nearly near retirement age when they start to wear vestments, about the same age as most Vietnam War Protestor dissidents?

  13. Charles E Flynn says:

    Four wymenpriests are required because they do not permit extraordinary ministers of the Oh No It’s Still Bread.

  14. ChrisWhittle says:

    The women are not priests; they aren’t even Catholic. Only a baptized male can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I don’t buy the story that they were ordained at sea on a boat because they were not ordained according to Catholic dogma.

  15. RichR says:

    I now claim myself as President of the World.

    Hey, it worked!

  16. contrarian says:

    All hail RichR!
    I assumed you were sworn in on a ship on the Danube River?

    So one of their congregations is in Winona. One wonders if that was purposeful, so as to annoy the good SSPX folks there? Dunno.

  17. Patti Day says:

    There’s an awful lot of people involved here to keep secret the names of the three bishops who ordained wymynprysts on a boat in the middle of the Danube. I’ll bet we could figure out who they are.

  18. John Nolan says:

    “Monique Venn lifted communion bread before an altar …” This is accurate in terms of what she elevated, but I find it hard to believe she ‘celebrated’ ad orientem.

  19. Nan says:

    Ray, a couple of years ago, someone at a high level where I was working was the consort of one of these women. He truly believed that they were ordained priests; to get there, you had to do back bends and loop-the-loops with Church doctrine, as well as ignoring the fact that Jesus went up the mountain, prayed with his Father, called the Twelve to him and named them Apostles; all men. He had the option of naming women as apostles but didn’t. The women are married, which they don’t take into consideration at their alleged ordinations; however, they do have theological educations. They number among the deluded women who attend seminary as laity, all the while thinking that it will make a difference; yes, they have appropriate degrees in theology, but no, they don’t have valid ordination.

    They actually do believe that, one day, although not under Pope Benedict, as he’s unfortunately (in their view) too conservative, the Church will recognize them as priests. One telling point is that their events are invitation-only and not publicized outside of their own circles as they know that they’re excommunicated and that those among them working for the Church would lose their jobs if they were found out. They rent space from other churches.

    The man with whom I had this conversation has since retired.

  20. Deacon John M. Bresnahan says:

    News stories are supposed to include relevant data. What is relevant about a poll when reporting on the teachings and practices of ANY religion where TRADITION is one of its strongest attributes. The tone of most polls reported on is that religions must change to suit the polls. But the only good that a poll is for a religion of Tradition is to show where the membership needs further education on that faith.

  21. Random Friar says:

    When did Tim Burton start doing papier-mâché ?

  22. Jayna says:

    They listed that poll incorrectly. “59% of U.S. Catholics…who read the New York Times.” There, I fixed it.

  23. Jackie L says:

    “They trace their status through a line of ordained women bishops back to anonymous male bishops [cowards] in Europe. ”
    - Is there some reason why you believe them, they could by lying couldn’t they? I find it interesting how these people always calling for transparency won’t tell us who these bishops are.

  24. jilly4ski says:

    So, if they are still “catholic” are they going to make Ms. Nicolosi submit her resignation in 6 years when she reaches 75?
    Or if they are still Catholic why don’t they wear a chasuble? Or doesn’t that look good on the female body?

    I personally found the article hilarious. “The Compassion of Christ Church,” LOL. Well luckily most Catholics (even cultural catholics) would not recognize that church as a Catholic church, just based on its name. Apparently, being a wymynpryst also means you can’t name your churches anything that might be even remotely reminiscent of the church you are trying to copy.

  25. Centristian says:

    Wymynpriests in Minnesota? What parish? Our Lady of Perpetual Irresponsybylyty?

    “An increasing number of Catholics disagree with the church on this. In a poll last year by the New York Times and CBS, 59 percent of U.S. Catholics favored letting women become priests, with 33 percent opposed.”

    What, precisely, was the percentage who chanted for Barabbas over Jesus Christ I wonder?

  26. Clinton says:

    ‘Ray from mn’ asked several interesting questions above. Regarding the training of the
    prystesses, I recall the singer Sinead O’Connor relating the particulars surrounding her
    own (simulated) “ordination”. She breathlessly informed reporters that she had gone
    through almost an entire year of training. Goodness!

    As for the idea of these prystesses hearing confessions and simulating granting absolution,
    the stomach churns. Any penitent fool enough to go to one of these pretend prystesses for
    confession not only receives only a simulation of absolution, but also surely compounds
    his still unforgiven sins with sacrilege. And, of course, the Seal does not apply to faux
    confessions– so it’s best to hope that one’s prystess isn’t an incorrigible gossip. What a mess.

  27. They are not “pushing boundaries.” They are banging their heads against a brick wall. They should stop because the brick wall always wins in such a contest. Meanwhile, they expect us to feel sorry for them because their heads keep getting bloodied and they have headaches, when all they have to do is stop banging their heads against the brick wall.

    The Church and her doctrine will outlast all of these people, clueless newspapers, and clueless governments.

  28. jilly4ski says:

    @Clinton, I would imagine that the wymynprysts don’t do confession, and that anyone who actually attends such services no longer believes in person sin, but only “institutional sin” that only those still within the institution have to confess.

  29. Tom says:

    I would love to see the socially-justicey-femanazi part of their brain explode if they read St Thomas’ rationale for the invalidity of their ordination…. women “invalid matter”!! hahaha

  30. Geoffrey says:

    “How does one convey to people who don’t understand it that the Catholic Church is NOT a democracy and therefore the number of U.S. Catholics who support this embarrassment is irrelevant?”

    The errors of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution can be found deep within the roots of the USA, and sadly, it has been affecting Catholics in recent decades. I once heard a priest preach on the feast of St Ambrose about how he was elected bishop by his diocese, and how nice that would be today…

  31. mndad says:

    Honestly, any newspaper with a regular columnist like Katherine Kersten can not be called ‘ultraliberal’? Why the hype?

  32. Joshua08 says:

    Elizabeth D wrote, “Well although someone can be spiritually outside the Church technically it’s no longer possible to leave the Catholic Church. Even someone excommunicated is still Catholic”

    I have heard this claim many times, but it isn’t true. It is true, as far as I know, that the canonical censure of excommunication no longer places one outside the body of the Church, but formerly major excommunication, vitandi, did. Further, they who are public heretics, schismatic or apostates are not members of the Church. Pius XII mentions this in Mystici corporis, including how one is an really a member of the Church when cut off for grave offenses committed. In Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, he mentions that the following are not members of the Church 1.) the unbaptised, 2) public (whether formal or material) heretics, apostates or schismatic 3) Excommunicati vitandi. Everyone else is. The lat category meant the strongest form of excommunication. It was never latae sententiae, always ferendae sententiae and vitandi means shunned. Yes, Catholic used to shun certain people and literally not let them even set foot in the door of a Church. This was opposed to excommuncati tolerati, where contact with such persons was allowed and these, according to Ott at least, are still counted as members of the Church.

    At the very least, when they manifest publicly schism they cease to be members of the Church, anymore than Anglicans or Baptists are members. All the baptised of course, without exception, are under the jurisdiction of the Church’s laws…indeed the 1917 Code still had somethings about protestants marrying each other.

  33. jesusthroughmary says:

    If I recall from another article I read a while back, they were ordained on a boat on the Danube River so that were not committing their sacrilege under the physical jurisdiction of any bishop and therefore could not subjected to excommunication.

  34. Speravi says:

    “Compassion of Christ Church?” Any connection to the “Spirit of St. Stephen’s”?

  35. jesusthroughmary says:

    *so that they were not

  36. Joan A. says:

    Aside from theology, doctrine, tradition and all those things we Catholics should embrace with love and trust, if we could dispense with that and ordain women priests tomorrow, why on earth would we?

    I am a woman and I have been active in my parish, as are many women. The women are so active in fact, that they almost completely dominate the priest, only 4 years ordained. This poor man doesn’t know whether he’s coming or going.

    The music director (a woman) insists we switch to OCP (she loves Dan Schutte), and he obeys. The organist (female) has physically assaulted other parishioners and is no doubt senile at almost age 90. The priest has no clue she should be dismissed for the safety of others. The Sacristan has the idea that she owns the church, hall and rectory, has a master key, and makes all the decisions for any changes, regardless of the supposed requirement for finance committee approval. She dictates who may come in the church and last year for Christmas mass turned away a boy in a wheelchair and his mother because she felt they would take up too much room. (Fortunately before they could leave some parishioners intervened, got the priest, and made them welcome.)

    Another woman has dominated the Parish Council for years to the point the men on there are mute rubber stamps for her. Decisions are made before the priest even knows there’s an issue. The Secretary screams at people and throws things, in addition to being a lousy secretary and constantly breaking computers. The ladies doing flowers embarrassed us by calling the bishop in ANOTHER diocese to ask his opinion on the rubrics for altar decoration!

    A coterie of about 5 women who have known one another for decades regularly meet for tea or breakfast to plot who they want to push around or pick on in the parish, more than once veering into illegal activities. These, of course, are the same ladies inviting the priest over for dinner or taking him out to expensive restaurants.

    I am telling you the tip of the iceberg. The havoc, confusion, backbiting, and plain evil by the women here has been so destructive as to drive some people from the parish, from the faith, and in a few cases, drive priests to beg for another assignment. No priest has been able to remedy this situation. And these are his parishioners, can you imagine if they were his colleagues? I cannot think of a single incidence of this type of behavior coming from a man. Women priests is asking for a total disaster. We have enough bad male priests, can you imagine if women were ordained? Non-stop gossip, manipulation, meetings, meetings, meetings, and then everyone running off and doing whatever they want, secretively and in cliques.

    This seems to be a problem particularly prevalent in Catholic churches. Jews, Evangelicals, Protestants don’t have this vicious streak in their female congregations. Because Catholics have such a vast array of ways for women to be involved, over the years women have taken over and now feel entitled to run “our” parish. From my perspective, women need LESS authority and power in the Church, not more.

  37. APX says:

    Are wymenpriests required to keep the secrets of the confessional

    Wymynprysts hear confessions?!?! Puuuuhleeeze! They don’t hear Confessions. They do inclusive pseudo general absolution and then wave their ordination tambourines in praise of being healed through Sophia in the name of the Creator, and Redeemer, and the santifier.

  38. Supertradmum says:

    This is so sad. I pray for these deluded people. And, the puppets are scary, representing the falsity, the comic irony, and total rejection of tradition which these women claim to serve.

  39. Supertradmum says:

    Bye the way, the entire article reminds me of a great line from Galaxy Quest–http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/galaxy-quest/those-poor-people

  40. Supertradmum says:

    by…not bye..whatever

  41. jflare says:

    Perhaps we ought to be glad the youngest age of the women mentioned was 54?
    They would appear to be graying almost as rapidly as their male counterparts….

  42. disco says:

    Well even though they aren’t real priests they did presumably receive “ordination” tambourines. So they’ve got that going for them… Which is nice.

  43. Kerry says:

    “Commander, we are Wymyn Prysts from the Klaatu Nebula, we need your help!”

  44. badvestments.blogspot.com calls those things lurking behind them “the Calvinist Puppets of Doom.” Apparently a like-minded group of Presbyterians rented the same set earlier in the month…ha ha

  45. There’s journalism.
    Then there’s advocacy journalism.
    There there’s advertising journalism.
    There’s there’s full-page ads. Which is at least honest.

  46. albinus1 says:

    I once heard a priest preach on the feast of St Ambrose about how he was elected bishop by his diocese

    I thought St. Ambrose was acclaimed, not elected. There’s a difference. It’s a subtle one, but there is a difference.

  47. ContraMundum says:

    I don’t see any real benefit from a story like this. We all know that this group is out there (in more than one sense of the phrase); it’s not new. It’s a waste of time to argue with these people; they probably believe that logic itself is a patriarchal hegemony which they are striving to overthrow. Even if they could be reached by arguments, they probably don’t read this blog. They don’t appear to be growing; worldwide, I would guess they are less a problem than voodoo type religions that use Catholic names and symbols in the worship of pagan gods and goddesses. (Yes, I do think there is a similarity between the two groups.)

    A story about a wacko group like this can make us angry, which is physically unhealthy; worse, it can make us feel smug, which is spiritually unhealthy.

  48. ScholaLady says:

    Dear ContraMundum,
    I agree that is distressing and frustrating to read about these things, and most of Fr. Z’s readers do know about it. But we can’t assume that everyone does. I’m sure there are at least a few first time readers every day. People who might not know about what the women’s ordination movement really looks like. I think there are a lot of people who think that women who want to be ordained just want to do the same work as actual male Catholic priests, that was what I thought many years ago. It was a big eye opener for me to discover that what the wymynprysts really want is something that bears no resemblance to the real Catholic Church.
    Of course you are probably right that these poor women cannot be argued or reasoned with, but an article like this can serve as a reminder to pray for them.

  49. Brad says:

    ContraMundum, hi.

    Your concern about paganism is well founded because paganism is inside the women’s ordination stuff. I am committing detraction here, but I do so in the hopes that if I relate what I found and some fellow readers of this blog pray with me for the following lady, some good will come of it for her.

    I looked up the “danube seven” after reading this thread. One of them, Celeste, “serves as the executive director of the Tyrian network, ‘an intentional learning community founded in the year 2000 on Kelleys Island, Ohio and dedicated to Brigid, both the Goddess and the Saint’”.

    There is no goddess Brigid. Christians do not know this? Do not reject all false gods and idols, which are merely masquerading demons? I am reminded of the apostle who went far into the east and found a region enthralled by demons he immediately recognized with his post-Pentecost senses and knowledge. He rebuked them in their temple and their idols toppled and shattered as they screamed in rage. The area and the souls there were freed from an ancient, institutionalized bondage to demonic powers.

    “Dedication” to a demon is mortal stuff. Even tangentially it exposes one to new avenues of infestation, oppression, etc.

    May our Lady of Guadalupe help a sinner’s prayer for Dagmar Braun Celeste. May the light of Christ bring her back and may she be freed from foolish fascination with the lies of the devil. May she recall her baptismal promises with the aid of the Holy Spirit. May the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts triumph in her and for her! May St. Brigid utterly vanquish her demonic counterpart that is being unjustly exalted with her.

  50. paulah says:

    More symptoms of gender confusion and ignorance of how we are made in the image of the Triune God as male and female. The more distorted we are about our genders, the more distorted our understanding of God. How can we have a healthy relationship with our beloved Creator if we are confused about Him, and confused about ourselves? To make claim that we are being made to be inferior to men as women because we are not ‘allowed’ to be priests is like saying that the Holy Spirit is inferior to God the Father who is inferior to Jesus, who is inferior to the Holy Spirit, and so on. Nonsense!

  51. o.h. says:

    ContraMundum,
    There’s more to this posting than remind us of the existence of these groups. Nobody here is shocked and alarmed by them. What should be alarming us is secular newspapers that see nothing journalistically wrong with running “news” stories that consist of cheerleading for attempts to change the doctrine of a religion. Do we see newspapers actively trying to overturn the tenets of other faiths?

  52. discipulus says:

    jesusthroughmary says:
    If I recall from another article I read a while back, they were ordained on a boat on the Danube River so that were not committing their sacrilege under the physical jurisdiction of any bishop and therefore could not subjected to excommunication.

    I do believe that a wymyn who simulates her “ordination” would incur automatic excommunication, and therefore regardless of weather they are under physical jurisdiction or not, they are still excommunicated by power of the law itself. The Holy Father of the local Ordinary of the diocese they reside could declare the they incurred the censure.

  53. Ryan M says:

    The cynical part of me can’t help but wonder how long it is until faithful bishops get in trouble because they fail to discipline wymynpriests who are suspected–or proven–of abuse.

  54. Gail F says:

    “What, precisely, was the percentage who chanted for Barabbas over Jesus Christ I wonder?”

    Centristian, if I had a gold star I’d award it to you!

  55. Gail F says:

    Brad: Dagmar Celeste is the former First Lady of Ohio. I think she had some sort of breakdown. She left her husband and six children and now says she is a counselor! Don’t take HER counsel.