Sr. Joan calls for revolt against medieval monarchical genderizing restorationist authoritarianism!

Where in the world is Sr. Joan?

For a while I have been wondering where Sr. Joan Chittister has been.   Shouldn’t she be back in Egypt again, helping the Egyptians to sort out there problems?  Shouldn’t she have been at the recent LCWR assembly rallying the sisters against the evil CDF?

She has finally surfaced.

An alert reader find someone from her on the website of perennial agitator Richard Sipe.  Sr. Joan is going to have a teleconference!  No, really!

Emphases mine as are comments.   I am not making this up.

August 22, 2013

TO ALL OF THOSE WHO HOPE FOR REFORM WHICH AT THIS MOMENT SEEMS TANTALIZINGLY CLOSE, AND YET AT THE SAME TIME FAR TOO FAR AWAY: THE QUESTION IS WHAT CAN WE DO AT THIS TIME TO BRING THIS NEED AND URGENCY TO CONSCIOUSNESS AT THE LEVEL OF THE PAPACY ITSELF?

Dear Friends,

For the first time in years, reform-minded Catholics [HEY!  I'me one of those!  Though I suspect my idea of "reform" and hers might diverge a little.] find themselves at a moment of opportunity, a time that could well begin again the kind of church renewal Vatican II heralded for all the world to see. [I suspect Sr. Joan does not have a clue about what the Second Vatican Council actually called for in its documents.]

Bogged down by restorationist papacies for years, [Oooo!] the church has lurched between a deep-seated vision of renewal and the continuing shadow of 19c authoritarianism, between the kind of scandals authoritarianism breeds and the steady stream of defections they carried in their wake. [Lemme get this straight.  It was authoritarianism that has caused all the problems?]

The Traditionalist papacy maintained the trappings of a medieval church and became more and more monarchical by the year [Huh? On which planet did that happen?] while the church of the people [Get that?  "the church of the people" pitted against the "hierarchical" Church.  This is an indication that Sr. Joan has either not read or has read and not understood Lumen gentium.] clung to the call of Vatican II [What a vague, empty phrase.] and worked and prayed for the conversion of the institution that could make it possible. [Again, people v. institution.] You know the truth of all of that because you are it. [Sounds like gnosticism.] You are the American voice of a church in exile groaning for new life. With the election of Jorge Bergoglio as the simple Pope Francis, [The "simple" Pope Francis?  That is the one thing that Pope Francis is not.] it is possible that the time of listening has finally come. If we can possibly get his ear.

This week I got a phone call that I have been waiting for, for years. Rene Reid, a member of one of our Vatican II groups [What could those be, I wonder.] called to ask me whether or not I thought that it might not be more effective if her group collected the concerns of multiple groups and wrote a common letter to present to Pope Francis at the first meeting of his new advisory Council of Cardinals in October. I agreed to write my answer to all of you: I sincerely believe that until we raise a common voice we will not only not be heard, we will not even be listened to in the light of larger issues and larger groups, all clamoring for attention. By this I do not suggest the collapsing of reform groups into one agenda or one leadership. [HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!]

On the contrary. Every agenda being pursued by church groups in this country shines, as far as I can see, a valid and enlightening laser beam [A "valid" laser beam?] on the effects of bad theology [Like, perhaps, what the LCWR is into?] or poor church administration in a modern world. This work cannot be bartered after all these years of study, research and compilation of materials. These groups are our experts on multiple subjects and must, I think, be encouraged to feed the rest of us with the background material we need to understand the problems and address the answers plainly and persuasively. [Good luck.] The work they have done, are doing, cannot be lost. Nor do I think that we should sacrifice the leadership of each group to some kind of super-group. I am not suggesting any particular format or organizational structure. [The second time she mentions that.]

But I do think that our leaders should model together another way of being church. [buzzzzzz] Without competition, without distrust, without control. Instead, we need to raise a common voice on a single issue—the immediate need for the genuine renewal of the church.

The problem is that we can’t get anyone to take seriously the most serious issues in the church because they have yet to take the Reform of the institution itself seriously. [I think there is a church for them out there, now that I think about it.] And so we go on as if transparency, lay participation, finances, the women’s issue, authority, sexual abuse, the genderization of the church, [Good grief.] the nature of the episcopacy, the right to the sacraments and a host of others will not eventually destroy the church no matter how much good work we do. A church that refuses to take the Gospel as its guide on these topics rather than canons that are designed to prop up the structures that spawn them cannot possibly really preach Jesus. [ROFL!  Yep, there's a "church" for them out there.  They could become, perhaps, Lutherans or Anglicans.  Reason #3 for Romanorum coetibus!]

My hope is that by speaking out together–a strong chorus of calls for Reform–we can provide a common, a clear, a strong and ongoing voice for the yet incomplete vision of Vatican II. [I suggest they start by reading Lumen gentium.] My hope is that by putting all of our petitions in the same envelope we may actually visualize the breadth and depth of this movement more effectively than any amount of words can do. My hope is that in our desire to be heard on particular issues—all of them important–we do not lose the strength of our common voice by reducing it to a whisper. The purpose of this letter is simply, as Sr. Thea Bowman loved to say, to encourage the Church in one great lusty and full-bodied voice to say “AMEN” together to a new beginning.

Hopefully,

Joan Chittister, OSB

Note: The first teleconference call is set for Wednesday, September 4th, at 10:00 A.M. eastern time. The phone number to call is 712-432-0080 and the code is 1031413. The purpose of the call is to find our common voice on a single issue that we, as Church organizations and reform groups, want to have delivered to Pope Francis. We are requesting to have our topic placed on the agenda of the October meeting which the pope has scheduled with his cardinal advisors. Along with it, we intend to include a summary of backup data gathered by all of the organizations who have resource information, initiatives, or petitions that have been gathered over the years. If you want to be a part of this special opportunity, please mark this date on your calendar and be on the call or have a representative from your group. Because we are a worldwide group, the time for the call is: U.S. eastern time: 10:00 A.M.; U.S. central time: 9:00 A.M.; U. S. mountain time: 8:00 A.M.; U. S. pacific time: 7:00 A.M.; U.K. time, Ireland time, and Italy time: 3:00 P.M.; Sydney, Australia time: midnight. There is no need to pre-announce your plan to be on the call. We will take a roll call at the start. And minutes will be provided to everyone afterwards. If you see that an individual or group has been left off of this list, please forward them this information and have them contact us to be included in the future.

I think a whole bunch of you readers out there, should get involved.  Share your voice!  Don’t allow yourselves to be repressed!

Work for Reform!

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About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Dogs and Fleas, Liberals, Magisterium of Nuns, Our Catholic Identity, Throwing a Nutty, Vatican II and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

78 Responses to Sr. Joan calls for revolt against medieval monarchical genderizing restorationist authoritarianism!

  1. amenamen says:

    Something like this?

    ” … a strong chorus of calls for Reform … a common, a clear, a strong and ongoing voice for the yet incomplete vision …”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_kvB3_0mrw

  2. Lin says:

    Sounds like Sister Joan and our pastor co-authored the article. They do reside in the same diocese. Now you know where I reside. I am praying for early retirement for both of them!

  3. Tradster says:

    Sister Joan, another example of the adage that only the good die young.

  4. JohnE says:

    The anarchists would like to invite you to a meeting to discuss decentralizing authority. Sr. Joan Chittister presiding.

  5. Frank H says:

    It’s on my calendar!

  6. Michelle F says:

    Thank God that Heaven is a medieval, monarchical, genderized, authoritarian realm – with a firmly established hierarchy and patriarchy to boot. I can’t wait to get there!

  7. benedetta says:

    Wednesday 10 a.m.! To discuss spawning structures…?

  8. Rachel K says:

    “the women’s issue” ??! An ideas anyone?
    …and I love it when people WRITE IN CAPITALS! IT’S A SURE SIGN OF TOTAL DESPERATION!!

  9. Acanthaster says:

    Given the personal calls he’s making lately, wouldn’t it be great if Pope Francis just called in to join the teleconference? “Ciao, it’s Pope Francis! Yeah, if you ladies could just stop, that’d be great. kthxbye”

  10. Precentrix says:

    Ummm… aren’t Italy an hour ahead (sometimes two hours?) of Britain/Ireland?

  11. Late for heaven says:

    I am uplifted and energized that this wonderful call will go forth to our dear Pope Francis! It is truly a relief that we will be able to put all the issues in one envelope. May it burn brightly for all the world to see.

    As the survivor of many many public advocacy efforts I have to laugh at her confident assertion that leaders will “…model together another way of being church. Without competition, without distrust, without control.”

    Countdown to implosion in 5….4….3….

  12. acardnal says:

    The “i-z-e” . I just love when nouns are turned into verbs.

  13. benedetta says:

    Late for heaven, yes, brightly burning!

  14. thefeds says:

    By the way, what ever happened to “…the gates of hell shall not prevail…” Just saying.

  15. I have an idea for Reform and I’m passionate about it!

    Increased use of Latin alongside the vernacular – John XXIII, Vatican II

    Use of authentic sacred music in every parish in the Latin Church, which is pleasing to God and which the faithful have a right to hear – John Paul II, Vatican II

    Using the standards of Pius X and Pius XII to determine what is and is not sacred music – Pius X and Pius XII

    Increased use of the Missal of John XXIII alongside that of Paul VI – Benedict XVI

    And many more fantastic goals! Let’s do this.

  16. inexcels says:

    Every agenda being pursued by church groups in this country shines, as far as I can see, a valid and enlightening laser beam…

    If there’s one thing laser beams aren’t good for it’s passive illumination. If you have an industrial-grade one, though, it can be pretty good for cutting through sheet metal. Maybe that’s the sisters’ problem? They’ve been trying to illuminate rooms with industrial-grade cutting lasers? It would explain both their total confusion and the massive damage that has ensued.

  17. Elizabeth M says:

    There is so much wrong here I can’t get my mind around re-reading it.
    She wants another way of being church…without control. Modeled after the Gospels. Someone should mail her a Catholic Bible asap. I think she’s been reading too much Wycliffe.

    The only “voice to say “AMEN” together to a new beginning” will be as the Second Coming. If that is what she is hoping for, then sure!

    She has now “nailed her letter” to the door of the Church.

    I would love to be on this call. Alas, I haven’t the temperament. Instead I will make a call to Our Heavenly Mother and ask for her and St. Helen to pray for Sr. Joan. I hope she finds true peace in her soul. She clearly has a gift for leadership, it’s a shame to have it so misdirected.

    Can anyone “tweet” the Holy Father with the call in time and number?!

  18. Bruce Wayne says:

    I have often wondered why people who think like this want to be a part of the Catholic Church? That is, what motivates them to attempt subversive “reform” within rather than seek a home without, such as in Anglicanism or just making some non-denominational “church” of one’s own? That is, since total dissatisfaction and unhappiness (subjectively understood) in the Catholic Church is here readily apparent, why continue to put one through such distress and frustration?

    My hypothesis is that either there is some sort of fundamental recognition deep within them that the Catholic Church is the True one which keeps them from just giving up this game of revolt from within. Or, they have seriously deep mental issues, are very divided against themselves, and thus motivated by their lack of character and rationality (thus ultimately Satan).

    To my thinking the key fact of Vatican Two and its aftermath is the timing of when it occurred. The Liturgical Movement of the Twenties and Thirties was, in the main, an authentic Catholic revival (with the NeoThomist and Renoveau Catholique in France as well) and combined with Pius X and XI’s magisterial work, the Church was doing a fantastic job of dealing with modernism, democracy and political isms (liberalism and socialism most importantly, but also fascism and authoritarianism) . It is those years of activity that I would think gave rise to an attempt to bring it all together and take stock of the Church in and vs. (late) modernity by calling the council together. But . . . the early Sixties was the worst possible time. I think it is not too historically counterfactual to believe that if VII had taken place in the early Fifties or the mid-late Seventies then these last forty+ years of implementing the council according to its “spirit” and not its documents would have gone in a completely different direction.

  19. Supertradmum says:

    As a corollary, one way I judge the orthodoxy of a convent, especially a Benedictine one, is whether it has Sr. Joan’s books on the shelves. Her writing style seems to have deteriorated of late…hmm. Disobedience makes one stupid.

  20. Bruce Wayne says:

    The anarchist mentality in this vision reminds me of an amusing story a professor of Russian history once told our class. He said when he had been studying in Russia in the 80s/early 90s he went out to watch one of their May Day parades and take it all in. He happened to be in a side street where some of the marchers were getting lined up and organized. There was a neatly lined group with banners declaring they were Communists and then milling around, smoking and generally goofing off were the anarchists, dragging their banners around. The Communist leader with a megaphone was trying to get all the anarchists ready to march and so kept shouting “anarchists, line up on the left . . . over here . . . anarchists please line up now on the left,” all to no avail.

    Sr. Joan and the like-minded will always be victims of their own fundamentally unsound political principles and just like the Communists trying to organize the anarchists, she is going to forever be defeated by the simple fact that she is attempting to herd cats.

    To deny authority is to deny not only the fundamental tenet of political life but social life (i.e., all forms of human community). She needs to read Yves Simon as much as she needs to read the social and political encyclicals of the past 150 years.

  21. Precentrix says:

    As opposed to British anarchists who, being asked by a police offer if they would “Kindly put out [their] burning effigy as it’s a health and safety hazard” promptly complied. Of course, he said please…

  22. benedetta says:

    Why does she think that Pope Francis must now make Holy Mother Church Episcopalian?

  23. ppb says:

    In the late 80s/early 90s, I used to be involved in various activist projects (not religious in nature) that used the same techniques and language – huge conference calls to “empower” volunteers to “raise the consciousness” of global leaders, etc. (I eventually dropped out when I realized that the only true “activism” was to be an orthodox Catholic.) Sr. Joan’s announcement reminds me of that era – it all seems very dated to me.

  24. Imalwaysangry says:

    This is going to be FUN. On calendar.

  25. Geoffrey says:

    Okay, one… Would someone please send the good sister a copy of the documents of the Second Vatican Council? Even a link to them on the Holy See’s website would do!

    Two… It is apparent that the doctrines of the French Revolution and American democracy continue to plague the Church; “church of the people”, indeed!

    Three… Did the good sister really use the word “lusty”?!

  26. James C says:

    I’m reminded of a story about Sr. Joan’s favorite pope. Bl. John XXIII:

    “During the First Session of the Second Vatican Council a lady turned up in Rome and asked for an audience with the pope to discuss with him the question of the ordination of women to the Catholic priesthood. She was Dr. Gertrud Heinzelmann, a lawyer at Lucerne, the famous centre of the Roman Church in Switzerland. Pope John, who was otherwise kindness and patience personified, lost his patience. ‘Tell that suffragette that I shall never receive her. She should go back to her homeland.’ ”

    (page 147) https://www.brocku.ca/concordiaseminary/LTR/LTR%20VIII%201-2.pdf

  27. Lin says:

    “ROFL!  Yep, there’s a “church” for them out there.  They could become, perhaps, Lutherans or Anglicans.  Reason #3 for Romanorum coetibus!]”. Funny you should say that. It is exactly what I’ve said about our progressive pastor. He, too, would make a good Luthern! I really get the impression that at age 66, he may feel that he chose the wrong profession. Just a feeling because he seems to harbor a lot of anger about the state of the Church. He had serious issues about the reigns of Popes JPII and Benedict. He still has big hopes for Pope Francis, the Bishop of Rome (his emphasis, not mine)!

  28. Stephen McMullen says:

    “…..we are church….” Ugh. Liberal jargon.

  29. Menagerie says:

    For years I have struggled to align my beliefs to the teachings of the Church. Some things are hard for me to embrace as a convert. However, I want to submit and obey. I pray to be given the wisdom and humility to understand and embrace the things I struggle to agree with. I do not want the Church to change for me. I want to change for me and for love of God. I want to submit to the guidance, the leadership, the discipline that come from Jesus through St. Peter. I don’t want a popular election to give me what I want. What I want is often very bad for me.

  30. Kathleen10 says:

    “Every agenda being pursued by church groups in this country shines, as far as I can see, a valid and enlightening laser beam..”
    Gee, “every agenda”? She agrees with every agenda? That’s a very indiscriminate way of looking at things. Even within my range of conservative political values, if I were to see a list of groups there would probably be some with which I wouldn’t agree, but to Sister Joan, every agenda shines like a monkey’s bum, or something similar. Well as long as you get what you want, Sister, I guess that’s what matters. You’re easy. You agree with everything.

    Do we need to storm the Vatican with letters? Do we need to coalesce groups so we can make a bigger noise and thereby gain Pope Francis’ attention and ensure he hears OUR voice as well? Ought we be worried Pope Francis might DO something to pacify these heretics? I do not know the answer. But I hope “simple” Pope Francis maintains what appears to be a very independent streak.

  31. McCall1981 says:

    I find these kinds of things sad to read, its frightening that some people actually think that way. I struggle to love and trust Pope Francis and these kinds of things always plant doubts for me, even though he has nothing to do with this. I’ll try to pray for her.

  32. Lin says:

    ……we are church! All we need is love! Let the church say AMEN! Nothing about sin. Must not exist anymore! I, too, struggle to love and trust Pope Francis because the progressives are drooling over him! I pray for all priests and religious! No priests, no Eucharist!

  33. The Cobbler says:

    @inexcels, I doubt Sr. Joan could get her hands on an industrial-grade anything, although your point is valid at least as far as the metaphor goes. It’s a mixed metaphor at best; and as I understand it the Church permits mixed metaphors so long as the children are raised Catholic, which doesn’t seem to be happening in this instance.

    @acardnal, as Calvin and Hobbes put it, “Verbing weirds language.”

    @Precentrix, which anarchists was this incident about? I don’t think I’ve heard of it before.

    @Bruce Wayne, that story is hilarious.

  34. The Cobbler says:

    Pater Zedissimus,

    Pardon the double-comment, but I just had a lightbulb moment: perhaps a valid laserbeam is one Master Chief would consider worth using?

    [Master Chief would use whatever is to hand when it comes to stuff like this!]

    Fr. Z's Gold Star Award

  35. PostCatholic says:

    In answer to you, Bruce Wayne, when you say
    I have often wondered why people who think like this want to be a part of the Catholic Church? That is, what motivates them to attempt subversive “reform” within rather than seek a home without, such as in Anglicanism or just making some non-denominational “church” of one’s own? That is, since total dissatisfaction and unhappiness (subjectively understood) in the Catholic Church is here readily apparent, why continue to put one through such distress and frustration?”

    I have often wondered the same. I think it’s intellectually dishonest.

    Some of us leave.

  36. chonak says:

    If I understand Sister right, isn’t she calling for . . . a reform of the reform movement?

  37. Jeannie_C says:

    Menagerie:

    Sister Joan should align her prayers to yours. You have spoken well.

  38. oldcanon2257 says:

    Acanthaster says:
    29 August 2013 at 5:46 pm
    Given the personal calls he’s making lately, wouldn’t it be great if Pope Francis just called in to join the teleconference? “Ciao, it’s Pope Francis! Yeah, if you ladies could just stop, that’d be great. kthxbye”

    If His Holiness is too busy, perhaps he could name Cardinal Burke as a Papal Legate for the express purpose of joining the teleconference on his behalf and for that duration only? That would be fun. There shall be (clearly audible) weeping and gnashing of teeth if that were to happen.

    I hope Archbishop Sartain will join the teleconference.

    “simple Pope Francis”? Haha, apparently the good sister isn’t that familiar with the Jesuits, or it’s wishful thinking on her part. The only thing simple about Jesuits is that they’re only saying what’s actually on their mind when it’s a slip of the tongue.

    What on earth (and heaven for that matter) is an “enlightening laser beam”? I thought laser beam was BLINDING? If there were a valid laser beam, there must also exist an invalid laser beam?

    If Father Z is not too busy, he will be participating in the teleconference, yes? Maybe Sister will not kick him off the call the way the LCWR rejected his attempt to apply for media credentials for their event?

    [I dunno. I dunno if I could endure another rejection like that. I'm still too... wounded.]

  39. What strikes me in screeds like this is that these groups aren’t upset with the existence a powerful hierarchy. They’re upset that they’re not the ones with the power and authority in the hierarchy.

  40. Ad Orientem says:

    Sometimes a picture is the best response.
    http://tinyurl.com/pwc5d5c

  41. fin-tastic says:

    Bruce Wayne:

    Liberal Catholics stick around because they like being a pain the neck. With a quasi-Marxist worldview that frames everything in terms of class conflict, they love to agitate. It’s in their DNA. These people don’t want God, holiness, or salvation. They want the EXPERIENCE of challenging a male-dominated hierarchy. It’s like a religious experience for them; it gives meaning to their lives by connecting them with something larger than themselves (“progress”). For liberal Catholics, the tenets of liberalism (class conflict, equality, democracy, freedom, tolerance, change, diversity) matter more than the tenets of Catholicism (unity, authority, obedience, morality, tradition, truth). In reality, most liberal Catholics absolutely hate the Catholic religion; they can barely contain their excitement at the crisis in the Church. They stick around hoping to bring about the final downfall of the evil Catholic “hierarchy.” If they succeeded, they’d probably get bored, convert to Islam, and do it all over again.

    I forgot who said it, but a famous liberal Catholic once said something like the following: “All my life I wanted to fight a revolution that wouldn’t land me in jail. I found it in the Catholic Church.”

    Does anyone know who said that? I can’t find it on Google.

  42. Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    “Every agenda being pursued by church groups in this country shines, as far as I can see, a valid and enlightening laser beam..”

    Surely this, “as far as I can see” shows her myopia?

    If enlightenment comes from a laser beam, is that because it has seared some part of the brain or been used in lasik eye surgery?

    Would “church groups in this country” include Tribe, Tucker and company?

    Perhaps His Holiness, who recently spoke of expanding the role of women, could name her Apostate Nuncio to Damascus?

  43. Bea says:

    Of all her statements this is the funniest:

    “that by putting all of our petitions in the same envelope we may actually visualize the breadth and depth of this movement more effectively than any amount of words can do.”

    No amount of words? What the heck are they putting in the “envelope” if it’s not words?

  44. rbbadger says:

    Please, Sister Joan, give it up and become Episcopal! You and Katherine Jefferts Schori would have so much in common and so much to talk about. You might even get a mitre out of the deal.

  45. Hank Igitur says:

    Send in Cardinal Burke in the cappa magna carrying a St Benedict crucifix and some inquisitors here.

  46. Londiniensis says:

    In the case of the good sister, what does “OSB” actually mean? Does she not have a Superior out there somewhere who could come down on her? Hard?

  47. C N says:

    Conversation I had (while taking my RCIA class) with a Lutheran near and dear to my heart:
    “Do you agree with that?”
    “Usually if I don’t agree with something the Church teaches it is because I don’t fully understand why they teach it.”
    “But just because you convert, you don’t necessarily have to agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches.”
    “I also don’t have to be Catholic…”

    Maybe Sister could take a hint and get a good Catechism instructor (open to volunteering Fr. Z???) Or as everyone else has said, leave the Church.

    (I joined the Church anyway, just to clarify…)

  48. Lin says:

    Bruce Wayne, I agree with you. I believe the reason that the don’t leave is that deep down they know the Catholic Church is the one true faith. It seems that they do harbor a lot of deep-seated anger. When I respectfully disagreed with our pastor when he said that the rubrics were just guidelines, he got very angry and started to rant about his mother getting excommunicated. And his mother had never been part of the initial discussion. It is very sad to spend your life with such anger! They need our prayers!!

  49. Rachel K says:

    I thought of something OSB might stand for, but it is too rude to print….

  50. Marion Ancilla Mariae says:

    Even though she herself doesn’t seem to behave as if she realizes it or remembers it, consecrated nuns and sisters like Sister Joan are the very espoused brides of Christ, Our King.

    Sometimes brides lose their way. Any Husband would be distressed to have his bride lose her way; I think it may add to Our Holy King’s sorrow if “the neighbors” say more than is necessary to point out the problem, to clarify the issues, and to promise to pray for His Majesty’s lady.

  51. Marion Ancilla Mariae says:

    P.S. Sister Joan’s status is in a way an encouraging example: that in spite of her waywardness, Jesus hasn’t and won’t repudiate or abandon her. And that’s encouraging, because it helps to remind me that in spite of my sins (especially sins of omission!), Jesus won’t repudiate or abandon me!

  52. AnnAsher says:

    OK, initially I thought this was a joke. Doesn’t she have a way of jabbering on and on while saying very little other than crying “sola scriptura!” I think we should take some of her complimentary vocabulary and make it out own. What are we ? Why, Traditional Monarchial Gender Diverse Papists of course!

  53. Elizabeth D says:

    I really like Marion Ancilla Mariae’s comment.

    I wonder what the conference call participants will come up with as the issue they want to submit to Pope Francis and the Cardinals, if it is 60% Fr Z readers and 40% dissidents on the call. This may be the ideal opportunity for promoting Fr Z’s dream of ordination equality for Traditionalists.

  54. Mariana2 says:

    “…there’s a “church” for them out there. They could become, perhaps, Lutherans or Anglicans.”

    Let me recommend the Anglican church, which is what I looked into when I didn’t want to be Lutheran anymore. I thought I could be an Anglo-Catholic…. I then saw a BBC programme where an Anglican bishop said that diversity was the great strength of the of the C of E. Everybody is right! In the same programme I saw an Anglican woman minister handing out communion. She had a plate of crumbly cake in her left hand and pinched off bits of it with her right. That cured me forever of the Anglo-Catholic dream and forced me to consider the actual Catholic Church. Thank God!

  55. Athelstan says:

    “[I suggest they start by reading Lumen gentium.]“

    I never cease to be astonished by how little contact some Catholic progressives I talk to have with that document.

    At most, I get some stammering about it being a “compromise document,” that there’s a new theology that goes beyond the text. because the texts, while admittedly ambiguous at points, really don’t provide the kind of warrant claimed for so many of these agendas.

  56. Mariana2 says:

    “…As opposed to British anarchists who, being asked by a police offer if they would “Kindly put out [their] burning effigy as it’s a health and safety hazard” promptly complied. Of course, he said please…”

    And then there is the personable, cheerful and well dressed (presumably) Greek Orthodox with his polite wish for the Pope to drop the Filioque

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/09/21/protester-urges-the-pope-drop-the-filioque/

  57. Mariana2 says:

    Ann Asher,
    “What are we ? Why, Traditional Monarchial Gender Diverse Papists of course!”

    Maybe there will be a new Fr. Z mug? ‘All for medieval monarchical genderizing restorationist authoritarianism’

  58. SonofMonica says:

    I may be speaking as one whose laser is invalid here, but Sr. Joan’s screed seems to be that the flock of sheep would be much better fed without a mean old shepherd controlling the distribution of food. She purports to represent “We the Sheep,” in calling for a new form of organization… Hmm… where have we heard this talk before? Ah, yes. The American and French Revolutions. I think we’ve seen the end result of Enlightenment philosophy and government, Sr. And it ain’t pretty. It tars, feathers, bombs and twerks. I’ll take my chances with the Holy Roman Catholic Church, thanks.

  59. Sonshine135 says:

    @PostCatholic and Bruce Wayne- I have a theory for you as to why people who think like this want to be a part of the Catholic Church, and it is actually quite simple. Payback! This really is no different from the redefining marriage battle. These people feel extremely bitter towards a hierarchy that has remained consistent and unwavering in its message. Misinterpretation of Vatican II led to a dent in the armor. Now they see an opportunity (with a perceived weak and “reform-minded” Pope) to go in for the kill. Their entire purpose is to simply make you as unhappy as they are and to destroy the institution that they perceive leads to their misery. The fact is, these harpies will never be happy, and they will continue fighting against the church they claim to love until their last breath left their body. Even if they got their way, they would still fight. They are perpetually neurotic and unhappy people. The sad truth is that they will die, and they will be forgotten quickly.

    I am especially surprised you didn’t pick up on this Bruce Wayne. Didn’t you realize that sometimes people just want to watch the world burn? ;-)

  60. The Masked Chicken says:

    How does one reason with such people?

    The Chicken

  61. Fr AJ says:

    This letter is an example of what I view as the last gasp of the groovy liberals of the ’60′s before the biological solution takes effect.

  62. Forget the “Magisterium of the Nuns” stuff. This is gynarchy.

  63. Legisperitus says:

    I don’t get it. Why can’t they just sing a new Church into being?

  64. SonofMonica says:

    Legisperitus:

    The church she wants already exists, and she’s part of it. She’s just not going to be content until she’s destroyed Christ’s.

  65. tzard says:

    Yes, you can’t reason her or her brood – reason has nothing to do with this.

  66. Rich says:

    How is one intiated, I wonder, into Sr. Joan’s “church of the people? I have been baptized, am usually considered one among people (and, a layperson, at that!), but somehow think I would not be included in this church.

  67. MarkG says:

    People always ask why the SSPX doesn’t take offers from Rome. This is an example of stuff that really scares the people if not the clergy away from taking any offers.

    Pictures like this one really scare them also:
    http://www.dallasvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/6_Church_meeting_at_Mabel_Peabodys_in_Denton_Copyright_2013_Patrick_Hoffman_All_Rights_Reserved1.jpg

  68. CrimsonCatholic says:

    MarkG, how does that relate to what is being discussed here? Also, that picture is of some random Protestant church that meets at a bar.

  69. Siculum says:

    @MarkG

    I looked up the article whose picture you cited. (I wish I hadn’t, it’s disgusting.) The article you looked up was from an LBGT website and was about some heinous, sick, and sad mockery of the….Mass? by some non-Catholic people gathering in a gay bar. The individuals need a lot of therapy and praying for. But it wasn’t something sanctioned by the local Catholic diocese, let alone Rome. Quite the opposite, in fact. The Society is well aware of the distinction between the travesty described in the article and the solid teachings of the Church. They’re not (I hope) searching the web for homosexual websites like that one in an effort to deface the Magisterium.

    With all due respect, at a minimum I recommend that you choose your liturgical abuse photos more carefully. At the same time, don’t fail to distinguish between what is a proper Mass in the Ordinary Form according to the General Instruction for the Roman Missal, and heresy. If, however, you equate the two…. you’re missing the point of Fr. Z’s blog entirely. To say the least.

  70. Siculum says:

    @CrimsonCatholic

    Hear, hear.

  71. Thom says:

    “Restorationist” – I quite like that!

    And I’m only more than happy to adopt JonathanCatholic’s agenda as a Restorationst Manifesto.

    I have an idea for Reform and I’m passionate about it!

    Increased use of Latin alongside the vernacular – John XXIII, Vatican II

    Use of authentic sacred music in every parish in the Latin Church, which is pleasing to God and which the faithful have a right to hear – John Paul II, Vatican II

    Using the standards of Pius X and Pius XII to determine what is and is not sacred music – Pius X and Pius XII

    Increased use of the Missal of John XXIII alongside that of Paul VI – Benedict XVI

    And many more fantastic goals! Let’s do this.

  72. Theology Nerd says:

    What drivel! As anyone who has ever had to deal with them knows, He’ll hath no fury like a liberal scorned! “But I do think that our leaders should model together another way of being church. Without competition, without distrust, without control.” Competition, distrust, and, especially, control are some of their favorite things. If you refuse to spew back their nonsense, if you believe what the Church teaches…WATCH OUT!! They will do all in their power to DESTROY YOU! Believe me, I have been on the receiving end of their wrath!

  73. Theology Nerd says:

    Oops! That should have said “Hell hath no fury like a liberal scorned”. Darn auto-correct! :)

  74. Ella says:

    For the love of all that is good and holy! That woman needs to get a grip on reality, find Jesus, and read something other than old issues of Ms. magazine or 1970′s feminist textbooks!

  75. Precentrix says:

    @ The Cobbler -

    It was years ago, in the middle of one of the anti-war protest marches in Hyde Park.

  76. “Liberal Catholics stick around because they like being a pain the neck. ” or they’re delusional or both. The more i read the more i wonder if this is the same sister i encountered at Sodahead a few yrs ago. She was a scandal but very popular with many non Catholics and even a few misinformed Catholics. if it isn’t the same person they’re definitely similar enough. She was so charitable and kind she blocked me. This nun did not live in community either. She had her own apartment and used a very old photograph of herself. At that point she even wore a habit of sorts. You could ALMOST feel sorry for them,but you have to feel sorrier for the Church.