This is simply too funny. Biretta tip to JG for guiding me to the right blog:
What If The Latin Mass Is More Successful Than Anyone Expected?
Hmmmm…
I’ve heard that many "progressive" Catholics are planning preemptive strikes to counter the ever growing traditionalism that’s sweeping through The Church. Here’s some examples;The Novus Ordo Society ~ Dedicated to keeping the Mass alive in the various languages that it’s celebrated in, such as English, Spanish, Esperanto, Mongolian, Tierra del Fuegan, Fortin, Indian Smoke Signals, Interpretive Dance, Goomba Brooklyn-Italiano Obscene Hand Gestures, Binary, Martian, etc. Originally named "Plures Voces", but changed name to current because someone realized that Plures Voces was in that ridiculous Latin.
The SSML; The Society of St. Martin Luther ~ "Telling The Pope To Go To Hell Since 1517". The SSML is a radical off-shoot of the SSHK, the Society of St. Hans Kung, which was a radical off-shoot of the SSVII, the Society of the Spirit of Vatican II. Membership in all three organizations is dwindling due to all their members are dying of old age.
Free-Thinking Single Catholics ~ A forum for the more liberally minded who are seeking either a guilt-free short term concubine-in-residence, or a long term straight-bi-gay-lesbian-transgendered-polygamous-incestuous-bestial-necrophiliac (any combination thereof) relationship. Day-Glo condoms, morning after pills, and penicillin booster shots provided free of charge to those who sign up for one year membership.
Latin Mass Watch ~ A Novus Ordo news portal that specializes in featuring various horror stories of overt Traditional Catholicism world-wide.
Lair of the Catholic Eco-Friendly Sissy Ticklefight Pooh Bear Cavepersons of Undetermined Gender ~ A quasi-serious weblog that gaily focuses on the glories of everything Novus Ordo. Special attention paid to true meaning of the Theology of Dandelions and Kitten Whiskers, and what it mean to everyone at Sts. Che and Fidel Catholic Community of Berkeley, California. Peace, out.
Ahhhh… the perfect remedy for sour speculation on the MP.
In the meantime…. try some of this. I’m going to.
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“Latin Mass Watch” is particularly humorous.
That was the funniest thing I’ve seen all year! I just about fell out of my chair!
The Caveman: in all his splendid, manly, cantankerous, hilarity.
What’ll they do when they figure out what language is?
What’ll they do when they figure out what language “Novus Ordo” is?
(Apparently, one cannot place words inside angled brackets)
Cathy of Alex wrote:
“The Caveman: in all his splendid, manly, cantankerous, hilarity.”
http://i13.tinypic.com/6aowm5h.jpg
I chuckled :D
Dude!
m
This is so funny.
The sad thing is, the success of the MP could be used as the excuse some need to go into schism. They will (wrongly and malicilously) claim the Church has abandoned Vatican II – and they may well be led by some bishops. I can see that happening here in northern Europe. They will be no loss (at least in terms of their faithfulness, or lack of it; and their false teachings will not be missed), but I’m sure the Holy Father will be aware of this potential risk.
Great post.
Bye the way did you know that good old Hans Kungfused recieved an award from the Freemasons for his literary contributions that were felt to support their vision of God. Rather amusingly, Dominican Timothy Radcliff recieved the Ramsay(Anglican) award for his contribution to Christian literature around the same time. You know a man by his friends.
I do not think MP will produce schism. You need a deep and strong faith in what you believe to go into schism. The problem with the liberal wing is that it does not engender such a faith – Anything goes. They will grumble and mumble for a few decades and with God’s good grace deepen their personal faith in the end. LA comments that “they will be no loss”. Yes they will. We must do everything to build the body. Christ would have all come to him. If what we say is true re: the Classical Rite, then it should be of benefit to all. So responsibility and care must be excercised by all who support it. Gently as she goes.
Thanks for your Blog Father. It’s really great.
P.S. Speaking of Freemasonary influences I have a query regarding the English translation of Sacramentum Caritatis. In paragraph 65, where in the Latin, does it say “WE STAND BEFORE” the infinite majesty of God…….. ?
I have translated some other languages but cannot find the “stand before” bit in them???
This is hilarious,
Unfortunately I think the truth in some of this humor is all too serious. While attending the Classical Rite this past weekend outside of Philadelphia a woman outside of Mass began to rant, “That was BORING… And the children, I had two of them behind me that just would not be quiet… I’m never coming to this Mass again.”
Even if the MP is successful, it will only be so for those who are properly disposed. Others will need time to unlearn the ‘spectacle’ idea of a Mass and re-learn the Spectacular Reality of the Sacrifice.
Whats in that drink again?
Bombay Saphire, or Tanqueray Number 10?
How would “stand before” be an influence from Freemasonry? (??)
Anyway, “stand before” appears in Sacramentum Caritatis at para. 65.
English: “everyone .. should be [aware] that at each celebration we stand before the infinite majesty of God”
French, “chacun … se [trouve] dans toute célébration devant la majesté infinie de Dieu”. [find oneself before]
Polish, “[on] wyraża siÄ™ Å›wiadomość znalezienia siÄ™ wobec nieskoÅ„czonego majestatu Boga” [find oneself before]
Latin, “unusquisque …exprimat conscientiam se in omni celebratione in conspectu esse infinitae maiestatis Dei” [be before]
Nothing about “standing” as such, except in English.
John – which TLM was that outside of Philadelphia?
I was at the one at Our Lady of Mt. Carmel
in blackhorse.
What about sedevacantist NO groups? They might elect their own good Pope John XXIV.
Fr. Z,
If I may venture to add another …
Fraternal Society of Venerable Paul VI: A society of apostolic life dedicated
to preserving the Novus Ordo. Their priests will begrudgingly say the old rite
once every year at Holy Week to show their unity with Holy Mother Church.
-Royce Gregerson
Eric,
This was at Our Lady of Mt. Carmel.
“Stand before”
AM thank you for clarification.
Reference to Freemasonary was for amusement (they STAND BEFORE God without the need to be washed in the blood of the lamb).
The phrase and it’s placement (and many others) immediately unsettled me. It implied a preferred but uninstructed disposition to the Eucharist.
Being a Catholic of the British Isles I’m a little sensitive to these issues (see below).
History
In 1552, Bishop Hooper denounced what he called the superstitious practice of kneeling for Communion. In a homily before King Edward VI, the Bishop spoke these blasphemous words:
“The outward behaviour and gesture of the receiver should want all kind of suspicion, shew, or inclination of idolatry. Wherefore seeing kneeling is a shew and external sign of honouring and worshipping, and heretofore hath grievous and damnable idolatry been committed by the honouring of the Sacrament, I would wish it were commanded by the magistrates that the communicators and receivers should do it standing or sitting…” (Philip Hughes, Philip, Reformation in England, (London: Hollis Carter, 1953, p. 197)
John Knox, another Protestant, also railed against the Catholic practice of kneeling for Communion: “at Berwick, the Scotsman John Knox on his own authority had discontinued the practice of kneeling to receive Communion.” Similarly, he preached a sermon before King Edward VI towards the end of September 1552, and “permitted himself an outburst of invective in the king’s presence,” (Ibid., p. 197) denouncing as idolatry the practice of receiving Communion kneeling. Afterwards, Knox wrote to Archbishop Cramner bidding him to have the rubric for kneeling removed in the new 1552 Common Prayer Book. So popular was Knox that he was offered the bishopric of Rochester, England, which he declined: “His own alleged reason for declining these preferments was that he thought the Anglican Church too favourable to Roman doctrine, and that he could not bring himself to kneel at the communion service.†(Catholic Encyclopedia, John Knox)
Fr Z. I won’t clog up your blog anymore on this issue.
The famous “Black Rubric” was inserted into the 1552 Book of Common Prayer (the 2nd Prayer Book of King Edward VI) at the last moment. It was removed in Queen Elizabeth I’s 1559 Book of Common Prayer to the horror of the Puritans.
“Whereas it is ordeyned in the booke of common prayer, in the administracion of the Lord’s Supper, that the Communicants knelyng shoulde receyve the holye Communion. whiche thynge beyng well mente, for a sygnificacion of the humble and gratefull acknowledgyng of the benefites of Chryst, geven unto the woorthye receyver, and to avoyde the prophanacion and dysordre, which about the holy Communion myght els ensue: Leste yet the same kneelyng myght be thought or taken otherwyse, we dooe declare that it is not ment thereby, that any adoracion is doone, or oughte to bee doone, eyther unto the Sacramentall bread or wyne there bodily receyved, or unto anye reall and essencial presence there beeyng of Christ’s naturall fleshe and bloude. For as concernynge the Sacramentall bread and wyne, they remayne styll in theyr verye naturall substaunces, and therefore may not be adored, for that were Idolatrye to be abhorred of all faythfull christians. And as concernynge the naturall body and blood of our saviour Christ, they are in heaven and not here. For it is agaynst the trueth of Christes true natural bodye, to be in moe places then in one, at one tyme.”
Pater,
Thanks for posting that! And a special thanks to Cathy and Vincenzo. But please excuse me for now. Me and some albino monks from Opus Dei have to give…. shall we say “special attention”… to some members of SSVII.
“stand beforeâ€
except the priest, who generally stands in between the tabernacle and/or crucifix, so people end up by standing before him. Oh, to re-orientate.
This entry is being derailed.
J of the UK:
Bombay Sapphire.
Good Grief!
Granddad drank Gordon’s, and so do I.
Three times the price does not equal three times better.
Vincenzo: LOL!
John, I wonder who it was? It was probably someone from the parish that normally goes
to the 10am novous ordo mass. If you didn’t notice, I was with my wife and 4month old little girl yesterday. We sat up in the loft. Noramlly I altar serve.
Okay, I’m really struggling with this.
It just seems so uncharitable.
So, if the N.O. people go into schism, good riddance, and if they don’t, well, we always knew their faith was weak as dishwater anyway, right?
And “Active Participation” means no one but Father, the servers, and the choir ever says anything. Every one else watches, reads along, and tries to enter a Zen-like mental prayer state.
Okay. I’m trying to understand, really.
What I find painful is that as N.O. Catholics go, I’ve always been rather traditional. I love to sing and pray in Latin, I’m with the Pope and the Catechism 100%, and if the N.O. Mass was outright forbidden I’d be doing my best to stand and watch and read the missal.
But I have to say, I always thought I’d LOVE the Tridentine Mass. I heard so much from so many people about how beautiful and wonderful and spiritual and holy and superior it was, that I couldn’t wait to go–and then I did, several times.
And I wanted to cry after each Mass, because I couldn’t follow along much at all despite high school Latin, I couldn’t even find my place in the missal, by the time I found the readings they were over, by the time I realized that Father was halfway through the Canon while the Choir was still singing the Sanctus it was too late to find the place in the missal for the rest of the Canon, and I found myself in line to receive Communion without having a clue what just happened.
I know, the Mass isn’t about us, and I can always offer up my sadness, total lack of spiritual connection, and utter confusion, right?
Thanks for listening.
Anonymous,
Perhaps you could find someone to point out where in the Mass you are. Maybe start with a very simple missal, like the red paperback that’s ubiquitous at TLMs. The first time I went to a TLM, I also got lost. What threw me was I went to the Asperges on page 1 and waited. They didn’t do the Asperges that day and instead started on page 3 and I didn’t catch up until the homily. But I did some homework and familiarized myself with the missal outside of Mass and boy, was it worth it. The great thing is, because there’s less call and response, even at a dialogue Mass, and less hymn singing, and lots of silence, the worshipper has to ask, “Well, what do I do here?” God guides the one who asks that question and His answer is wonderful. I find myself praying and participating through an act of the will in ways that I never would have at a NO Mass becau\se the opportunity never arose there. In English, I just listen, respond, and sing. I am much more passive, without being receptive. I hope you’ll give the TLM another try.
Anonymous: So, if the N.O. people go into schism, good riddance, and if they don’t, well, we always knew their faith was weak as dishwater anyway, right?
Not at all. Schism is to be abominated, no matter if the group is veering off the road into the left ditch or the right ditch. I think the derestriction will advance the cause of unity. What was posted in the main entry was a bit of levity.
And “Active Participation†means no one but Father, the servers, and the choir ever says anything. Every one else watches, reads along, and tries to enter a Zen-like mental prayer state.
Not at all. Time and time again in this blog I have written about active participation as beginning with and being rooted primarily in active receptivity. However, that is not where it stops. That properly understood active receptivity then manifests itsself outwardly in proper outward participation in words and gestures. This is why the act of receiving Communion in the state of grace is the perfect paradigm for active participation.
And I wanted to cry after each Mass, because I couldn’t follow along much at all despite high school Latin, I couldn’t even find my place in the missal,…
Not too worry. For a very long time people were somehow able to follow along at Mass quite well. There is no reason we cannot also do so. It just takes a little time and effort, perhaps a little help from someone who is experienced.
Anon –
I had no (as in zero, nada, zilch, null) latin in high school, or anywhere else for that matter. I can follow the mass very well, in fact I have picked up the meanings of many latin words simply by assisting at mass and following along in the missal.
BUT…
I first felt really comfortable about knowing what was going on at any given moment about two months ago, and I started attending the traditional mass regularly right around the first of the year – so it took me four months of attending sunday mass every week to get to this point.
I visited occasionally before I joined the parish and I always found it somewhat confusing and would stay away for a while. But things I saw and heard at other masses kept driving me back to the traditional mass for another try until I just decided to bite the bullet and stay permanently.
Anonymous: And I wanted to cry after each Mass, because I couldn’t follow along much at all despite high school Latin, I couldn’t even find my place in the missal, …
Perhaps you need assurance that your initially disconcerting experience is probably the norm rather than the exception among new Tridentine Mass attenders.
After all, how could it be the best thing “this side of Heaven” if it required no effort, no understanding, no learning curve, for you to appreciate it to the fullest. Would that make any sense? Who could expect to be transported to heaven effortlessly, like on some kind of magic carpet?
My guess — a pretty educated one, as a convert who’s been where you are — is that it’ll take about 6 months of trying to follow along in the ubiquitous red missalette before you begin realize at all moments where the priest is in the prayers, and to understand that, whereas saying or chanting the prayers and responses yourself is fine, the most active and fully conscious form of participation may be silently uniting yourself with the priest, assisting by really praying the Mass rather than merely saying or singing it. As Pope Pius X said,
“The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass.”
Anonymous And I wanted to cry after each Mass, because I couldn’t follow along much at all despite high school Latin, I couldn’t even find my place in the missal, by the time I found the readings they were over, by the time I realized that Father was halfway through the Canon while the Choir was still singing the Sanctus it was too late to find the place in the missal for the rest of the Canon, and I found myself in line to receive Communion without having a clue what just happened.
Sounds like you are cutting your teeth on a sung mass and/or high mass so I am not surprised that you are having difficulties. Sung mass with choir singing in parallel with words spoken at the altar together with several incensings and high mass with both of these plus extra personnel are always going to be much harder to get to grips with than a low mass. Do you have the opportunity to attend low mass for a few months to acquire the basics?
Henry Edwards: Perhaps you need assurance that your initially disconcerting experience is probably the norm rather than the exception among new Tridentine Mass attenders.
I am not sure I would use the word disconcerting but I agree that the old mass is a learning experience. Several decades of the new mass had somehow left me so ignorant of the basics that I first of all had to get to grips with structural matters of collect, preface, etc before even starting on the language. Happy to say that 14 months later it feels like I have been attending the old mass all my life.
Latin Mass Watch: “Because the only time the See of Peter was occupied was during Vatican II 1962 – 1965”
I want to thank everyone for their patience and charity–it means a lot to me.
I think they were high Masses, and one was on a major holy day, so that may have been part of why I couldn’t find anything in the book.
To tell the truth, Sean, the only Indult Mass I know of around here is in the middle of the downtown early Sunday evenings, so I have stayed with the N.O. Mass for a long time. It helps that I go to a pretty traditional parish with an orthodox pastor.
I especially appreciate what you said, Henry Edwards. Most people I’ve talked to who go to the TLM have made it seem to me like they just walked in and automatically got it all, and were instantly transported into some holy place that made the N.O. Mass (even if the Pope himself was the celebrant) seem like a stupid rock concert or something. It’s nice to know that there’s a learning curve that may even take a long time.
Thanks a lot…. I’m on retreat, trying to be all solemn,
pretending to be dignified, and you go an blow my cover by
making me shreik with laughter in the computer room and snarf
diet coke all over the place (on the other hand, a spit take
of which the late Danny thomas would be proud….)
Save the Liturgy, Save the World!
Anonymous, here is an approach that worked for me.
1. Before mass read the propers in the missal be content to allow the occasional word or phrase in the spoken propers to prompt recollection.
2. During the mass concentrate on the ordinary, identifying the audible words of the priest and the responses of the server in the the missal as these function as markers. For instance if you get lost in the canon you can quickly reorientate yourself by turning to and waiting for the spoken words ‘Nobis quoque peccatoribus’.
3. Once you are happy navigating these markers then move on to actually learning the responses and major prayers (kyrie, gloria, creed, sanctus, agnus) from a mixture of reading and repeated hearing. Do not be afraid to leave your missal at home and listen. Put yourself in the position of the server. What is next?
Presently I am back in my missal starting to follow the silent parts of the priest, concentrating initially on grasping the headwords of each section. Interestingly, despite all the allegations we hear that priests rattle through the silent parts at great speed I have noticed that I actually get through these parts much faster than the priest!