Remember my proposal that Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, should facilitate the creation of ordinariates for disgruntled Catholics?
Archbp. Williams could issue a document responding to Benedict XVI’s Anglicanorum coetibus called, say, Romanorum coetibus, by which he would offer provisions to give a safe-haven to liberals who want to keep their large puppets and pottery, 60?s music and the ordination of women, prayer to the earthmothergoddess… all without the spirit-repressing domination of masculine Rome! And they can use whatever translation they want!
O my prophetic soul. You can’t make up some things fast enough.
In The Church Times we read this, with my emphases and comments:
Peru Anglicans set up own ordinariate for RC priests
by Ed Beavan
AN “Ordinariate of Postulants” has been set up by the diocese of Peru in the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone to host a growing number of Roman Catholic priests who are keen to join the Anglican Church. [HUZZAY! Did I get that one right?]
In contrast to the situation in England, where three former bishops recently joined the Ordinariate for former Anglicans established by Rome, clerics are making the reverse journey in South America.
The Bishop of Peru, the Rt Revd William Godfrey, [There’s a Peruvian name.] said that, so far, about ten RC priests had joined the new group to explore the possibility of switching denominations. Some may bring congregations with them. [Hasta la vista.]
About half of them are from churches that have become independent from the RC Church, often because the priests have got married.
Bishop Godfrey said that he had also received requests from RC clergy in Uruguay, Ecuador, and Argentina, to join the Anglican Church.
He said that it was not entirely new for Roman Catholics to make this journey, as “the Anglican Church in Latin America would not exist if it wasn’t for ex-Roman Catholics”, but priests were now leaving on a larger scale.
He said that many of these priests were looking for stability in their ministry, and that the Postulate was “some sort of body where these people can draw close to the Anglican Church and experience its liturgical and pastoral tradition and theology, [You just can’t make some things up fast enough.] before taking the final step of being received. It provides a buffer zone [a… “safe-haven”?] in which we can prepare to receive them.”
Bishop Godfrey believes that some priests may have been encouraged by Pope Benedict XVI’s positive words about Anglicanism when setting up the Ordinariate, when he was “extraordinarily positive” about the Anglican tradition. [We win that trade.]
He said that the new body was not meant to be “provocative” towards Roman Catholicism; [I don’t sense the Church trembling to its foundations because of these folks.] there was in fact “a lot of respect towards the Pope” in the region. There is no financial motivation for clerics to move to the Anglican Church, as there is no guarantee of a stipend when they join the diocese of Peru.
The diocese currently has 35 clerics, an increase from just four in the late 1990s. It has two seminaries in Lima and Arequipa. RC orders are recognised by Anglicans. [Yes… they would be.]
The diocese is currently working out how it will deal with bishops from independent RC churches [Ummm… if they are “independent” they aren’t “Roman”. Did they miss that part? But… wait… could this mean the SSPX bishops? Is Bp. Williamson in the shadows of Romanorum coetibus?] who wish to become Anglicans.
Spectacular.
I get how you can have Anglicans in Australia. It’s a stretch, but they do use more or less the same language. But, in Peru… are they going to use Spanish? To be in communion with Canterbury? I wonder if they are not attracting people who just like to dress up as bishops and priests.
Meanwhile the Anglicans named a female bishop from Toronto to ARCIC! That’ll help. Catholics, on the other hand, appointed Prof. Janet E. Smith.
If anyone wants out, feel free to contact the Anglican bishop in Peru.
“But Father! But Father!”, you might be saying with furrowed brow.
“Who, pray tell, should go over to them? Do you have anyone in mind?”
Lemme think.
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Let’s start with the LCWR and all the religious communities under their aegis, the NFPC and its members, the FDLC and its members, Call to Action and its members, We Are Church and its members, etc.., etc., etc.
I can’t comment on who might cross over to them, but know of several “church” buildings (along with so-called church “art”) in the diocese of Portland, OR we should hand over along wth them.
This could be a new recruiting tool for the Episcopal Church. I mean, right now there are about 35 members with 12 of them being bishopesses right?
Funny on the ARCIC appointments. I thought the red worn by bishops was to signify their willingness to die for the faith, their willingness to shed their blood. What has the Anglican’s done in defense of the faith other than to lie down and let the culture steamroll them? The Immaculate Heart my be ripping apart.
Argentina and Uruguay spent some time under the British flag, and of course there was a lot of English (and other) emigration during the 19th and 2oth centuries. (People were always moving to Patagonia and Chile and such in novels….) So it’s as much a Peruvian name as Fujimori. :)
I kinda thought Southern Cone Anglicans were more on the evangelical/non-women’s ordination side, but maybe that’s not everybody Southern Cone. I seem to remember they gave some US Anglicans bishop-coverage, anyway.
All in all, though, it’s a remarkable example of Johnson’s Law, about how you can’t make up anything about Anglicans without it coming true.
The Anglican Church of the Southern Cone is, IIRC, one of the conservative/traditionalist Anglican bodies, to whom disgruntled Episcopalians in the US are turning for “alternative episcopal oversight.” It seems most of the RC priests they’re picking up are not necessarily liberals, but priests who have either attempted marriage, or want to get married.
Anglican missionaries have been active in Spanish speaking countries (including Spain) for many years, and have often worked with disgruntled RC clergy. The Book of Common Prayer, in both the older and newer versions, has been translated into Spanish.
The “independent Catholic bishops” mentioned might refer to those clerics who obtained episcopal orders from so-called Old Catholic splinter groups, also known as episcopi vagantes. There was a major schism in Brazil involving a Catholic bishop, who was deposed, and who organized a counter-church, and consecrated a number of bishops. The other groups, for the most part, derive their orders from a man consecrated by the Dutch Old Catholic Church for work in England. Over the years, renegade RC clerics have associated with these groups, or approached them for episcopal consecration. And at least one “Continuing Anglican” group claims its bishops were consecrated by the Polish National Catholic Church, which has valid orders and sacraments.
But again, I think in this case, the likely applicants are priests who want to be married, but are not necessarily theologically unorthodox.
I cannot rejoice in this development. What I see is a door opening for corrupt & renegade priests to lead their poorly evangelized congregations into heresy & schism bringing further division in the Church.
We have already seen the 500 years it has taken to heal the wounds of the English Reformation. As much as I would love to give these men a “fare thee well”, I fear the consequences.
I was in Peru once and, out of curiosity, I attended Evensong at the Anglican Cathedral in Lima – there were three people, including the priest, but the service was reasonably high (and done in English). I met some Anglican expats in the country (mostly U.S. Episcopalians rather than Brits), but, in a larger way, I got the sense that most Anglicans in the country were native Peruvians in Spanish-speaking congregations. They do seem to rely on disgruntled RC’s for growth, but (confirming a previous comment) the ethos was still more closer to that of other Anglicans from the global South.
Let the flakes flee. What will result is a leaner more orthodox CATHOLIC Church unhampered by the flower children who thought THEY were the most important part of the Church and that THEY (rather than Rome) should constitute the Magisterium. They can have all of the womenpriests, liturgical dances and non conforming liturgies they want and we can return to reverence.
I’m not sure about Peru- but all you need to get (uneducated, uncatechized) Mexicans into a church is an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe- go to any Protestant church with a Spanish language service, and they will have one. For many, that is all they need (some ‘believers’ not even aware that Our Lady of Guadalupe is Mary, the Theotokos)- and they leave the Church- too much paperwork
To expand on my earlier comment, I should note that the disgruntled RC’s who become Anglicans in places like Peru don’t seem to have the same predilections (“womenpriests, liturgical dances, and non confirming liturgies”) as the “flower children” who might swim the Thames elsewhere. Big factors for the Peruvian Anglicans I encountered or heard about were issues like married clergy and divorce – on other disciplinary and doctrinal issues, they were still very traditional.
In that sense, the Latin American context is very unlike that of the United States. The crowd interested in an “Ordinariate of Postulants” in Peru has a different profile than the Roman Catholics who become Episcopalians in the United States.
Have you ever met a Catholic who converted to Anglicanism where it hasn’t been about sex?
Have you ever met an Anglican who converted to Catholicism where it has been sex?
Sex in this sense meaning – wanting to have sex with someone God made it very clear you weren’t supposed to have sex with.
Just sayin’
Rob Cartusciello:
I think you reflected my sentements exactly.
I too have seen the damage done by renegade clergy pulling somewhat nieve lay people along with them. If we can at least keep together in the Church, perhaps we can save the lay people. If they follow the clergy away, it’s much harder to get them back.
Father, would it be a sin for me to entertain the thought of sending all 400 members of the Irish ‘Association of Catholic Priests’ over to Peru in a big crate? I’ll pay the entire shipping costs. I’ll get the money somewhere!
Fr. Z commented: “Is Bp. Williamson in the shadows of Romanorum coetibus?”
Why not? He is Anglican.
Merrydelval, I’ve often pondered that. Considering the origins of Anglicanism, it’s no surprise. What a sad, sad shell of the gospel.
@Merrydelval – yes; feminists enter the Anglican communion to pursue so-called “ordination”
Are you sure this isn’t satire?
Actually, it’s either “HURRAY” or “HUZZAH”, not “HUZZAY” [Preserved Killick (and the OED) would disagree and probably call you a grass-comber. Which it’s also “huzzay” ain’t it.]
I understand the damage caused by the sin of scandal, but I do not rejoice in their leaving. Much less forming a permanent separation from the Holy Church. It may perhaps avoid the loss of some, but at the cost of a few. That is, those who do leave are in greater danger of never repenting at the cost of their immortal soul. I am reminding the parable of the lost sheep. (but of course actual sheep never argue theology).
While I do appreciate segregating the cancer (0r stopping the blood loss) – I do not rejoice in it. It’s sad, but perhaps an unavoidable solution, knowing how people are.
OK… this is truly funny.
BUT…. do you really need any kind of “special provision” to become an Anglican? It’s not as though they’ve set a real high bar or anything. As is noted, RC Orders are recognized in the Anglican Church already… so in some sense, there has been a de facto “Romanorum Coetibus” in place all along. The focus in AC is the working out of valid Orders… that isn’t really a question going the other way. Am I missing something here?
Mike Morrow – Bp. (Richard) Williamson is not Anglican. He is one of the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefevre, whose excommunication was recently lifted by Pope Benedict. Perhaps you are thinking of Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury?
I am reminding the parable of the lost sheep.
Except in this version, the Shepherd rejoices because the trouble-making sheep leave and join another flock, leaving it to another Shepherd to put up with the antics…
“So it’s as much a Peruvian name as Fujimori. :)” – Well, no, it isn’t. Peru requires that all Peruvian born citizens have Spanish first names. Fujimoro has one, as far as I recall. That bishop doesn’t.
“Fr. Z commented: ‘Is Bp. Williamson in the shadows of Romanorum coetibus?’
Why not? He is Anglican.”
Williamson converted from the Church of England directly to the Society of St. Pius X in the 70s, bypassing the mainstream Catholic Church, altogether, so I suppose his religious denomination is simply “Lefebvrist”.
I think you may be confusing him with Anglican primate Rowan Williams, however.
I have always found the presence of the established Church of England outside of England a mystery, the expansion of the British Empire notwithstanding. If it were styled “The Church of the Empire” or “The Church of the Commonwealth” it would make more sense to me. But why should the Church of England be established as a matter of course throughout the Empire and not, say, the Church of Scotland or the Church of Ireland? I know the history, but I don’t see the logic, I’m afraid.
Why not just establish a new state church for every nation owing fealty to the British Crown. A “Church of Canada”, for example, as opposed to a “Church of England of Canada” (or “Anglican Church of Canada”). For “Anglican” simply means “English” and so it seems strange that Christians in New Zealand or Australia or Tuvalu …or Peru…would want to belong to the established state church of England, one of several constituent realms of the United Kingdom.
Anglicans, I believe, ought to be invited to ponder why the state church of one kingdom should actually exist anywhere else but within that kingdom. It might lead from one interesting question to another…and another…and another.
Male equivalent of “befanas”?
It’s Halloween in February! Woopee!
Maybe we should call this the Disordinariate.
“Have you ever met an Anglican who converted to Catholicism where it has been sex?”
Does “Tired of being around too many gays and not enough children” count as a sexual reason?
J Quick- LOL!! disordinariate indeed!
In answer to your question- yes, I believe being sick of condoned sexual sin and the sad results thereof would count as a reason connected to sex and it’s misuse.
It strikes me that this is a thumb in the eye of the Catholic attendees of ARCIC.
Perhaps an attempt to one-up the Catholics in the wake of Anglicanorum coetibus?
It strikes me that ecumenical dialogue can’t be based on actions such as these.
Perhaps the Catholics should bring Fr. Keith Newton (formerly one of the flying bishops in the Church of England) the first Ordinary of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham.
Joan M….my sibling’s names are Alex, Susan and John….all English names and we are all Peruvian born.
I failed to include the word “citizens” at the end of my comment.
I’n not confusing anyone with Williamson. I’ve studied the effluent from that poseur for decades.
Some here have a rather undeveloped grasp of sarcasm.
Can we send over the entire staff at The Tablet? What would they have to write about?
Imagine such a position for the Church and the misleadign of souls. Historically, Peru was once the most promising home for the Alliance for Progress. Liberation Theology thrived and Church leadership appeased not only the right-wing military, but the liberation progressive social movement agenda.
The 1960-1970s were ripe and until just about the Medellin Conference, the Peruvian Bishops Conference was routinely run by one man. From 1968-1980 the Peruvian Church was one of the most progressive. Pope John Paul II’s ascent to Pope began a change in leadership through bishops. Top Church leadership remained key players in progressivism up until then Cardinal Ratzinger put out a study in 1983 for the Peruvian Bishops Conference to look into Liberation theology. His subsequent report was strongly against. The Peruvian Bishops’s Council retorted with a more appeasing report of their own. John Paul II’s visit in 1985 was misread by the still empowered progressives and John Paul II’s 2nd visit in 1988 was directly about Liberation Theology and left no positive angles for malappropriation.
In parallel, this same time of progressivism was also a ripe time for eccumenism which was appeasing as well and run by the progressives. The time of their leadership was a ripe time for Mormons, Protestants and others “not strictly religious” to dilute core Church mores and teachings for a more open eccumenical viewpoint.
It is widely believed that these progressive efforts 20 years later, produced a Peru that was not in “progress” but regression from a 3rd world, but a 4th or 5th world nation.
While Conservatism has returned hierachically, progressivism remains while on the run undaunted. Lima is a good example. Many of the city parishes in middle- and upper-class neighborhoods are under diocesan clergy, directly responsible to the archbishop. But the great majority of the parishes in the pueblos jóvenes (which comprise about half of Lima’s 6 million inhabitants) are in the hands of foreign religious (some of whom are not strictly “religious,” such as the priestly mission associations like the priests of Maryknoll, the Saint James Society based in Boston, or the Irish Columban priests).
Clearly the progressives have had a strong grip for years (until the 1990s for sure) and many a Peruvian has been impacted despite the later turn toward conservatism among the bishops conference and Church teaching in general in Peru. It is these “hippies” and those that have been led astray of our Latin American Church brethern that are looking to leap.
While the first blush is “good-bye and good riddance”, there are many souls that need our prayers. Pray for them, pray for the Church in Peru and pray that our Holy Father’s work on true eccumenism of return is fruitful across the region.
Our Lady of Mercy (who on the first centennial of the nation’s independence, her image was solemnly crowned and received the title of “Grand Marshall of Peru,” on September 24, 1921, Feast of Our Lady of Mercy, since then declared a national holiday, when every year the army renders homage to her high military rank) pray for them and Our Lady of Chapi, pray for them .
Being an Anglican church, wouldn’t the document have to be in english? I suggest it be written on felt, and be named: “All are welcome”. :)