I just don’t get it. Do they hate what they claim to want to be?

Over at Coo-ees In The Cloister:

Look at this photo.  What does it say to you?  What questions come to mind as you look at the way these people are dressed, at the signs they are holding?

Is there any dissonance here?  This is Anglican, but it is perfectly applicable to the Catholic angle as well.

This reminds me of a parade in San Francisco.

If you and I wanted to make fun of the idea of women bishops, could we beat this?

The way they behave suggests that they are mocking the institution to which they demand admission.

At the end of the day, their idea of hierarchy and church resembles the Metropolitan Community Church rather than the Holy Catholic Church.

As mentioned, above, I think these are Anglicans in the photo.  But this is hardly different from what some Catholic women do.  They claim to be or want to be Catholic bishops.  But, in almost every instance of some wymyn pryyst protest, do you ever get these sense that they either understand what a bishop is or respect what a bishop is?

Over at the blog where I found this photo, they have reference to the Biological Solution view of what these oldsters are up to.  Fine.  They are right to do so.  But let’s open up another front.

There is something of the post-modern affirmation/negation thing going on here.  They want to belong to it and, at the same time, they want to destroy it.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. Legisperitus says:

    The Dalek is a nice metaphor for the destructive aspect.

  2. Paul says:

    In the back, left, is that a cartoon of a robot?? Of all the (weak) theological arguments they might reasonably make, this is the best they could do?

  3. Titus says:

    Surely the fellow with the Dalek poster is a plant from the TLM group at the local university, or some such. He can’t be a serious participant.

  4. MJ says:

    This reminds me of a presentation I witnessed in a Humanities / Fine Arts class in college. The class itself was excellent, and the prof was very good – covered art, music, and architecture and connected the dots between these things, history, and the church. The students were divided into teams and at the end of the semester had to give a presentation to the class. My team was the “Baroque” team…I took music, someone else took architecture, another art, etc. But there were these two gals who gave a presentation on what an “early Catholic Mass may have looked like”…this didn’t sound bad at first, until one of the gals said she was a minister and that she would be “distributing communion” at the end of their presentation. She was dressed like one of the ladies in the above photo. I was surprised, but *gladly* surprised, when not a single_person moved from their seat to receive “communion” from her. Even the prof seemed disturbed by the whole thing! Oh and her pronunciation of Latin was so bad I had a hard time keeping from laughing. If I remember right, she pronounced “Kyrie” like “chi-ree-aye”.

    Sad. Just plain sad.

  5. Tina in Ashburn says:

    oh. doncha know that a woman has no value until she is doing the work of a man?

    I can’t understand why these types think themselves as empowering the role of women while they ignore the female roles that are specifically done by women. These types hate women, hate what they represent, hate what they are ‘stuck’ doing. They are full of envy and resentment for what they imagine men are and do.

  6. I just don’t understand the whole idea that women should be ordained. This type of stuff is exactly what undercuts what makes a woman a woman. I was not put on this earth to be a priest. I was put here for many other and just as important reasons and I’ve never felt slighted or left out because I can’t be a priest. I was born too late or something. I could go on and on and on and on. These women are the ones who I have to explain my reasons for wanting to be a stay at home mom to, why I feel my husband is the head of our household and how yes, we are a team, and we each have clear, distinct roles to play and the person who came up with the job descriptions for male and female knew what he was doing. Quit messing with it. Ugh. It’s so frustrating. Or married priests – I would never go to confession if a priest were married b/c I know my husband and I have no secrets, I wouldn’t be able to trust that a priest would keep my confession private if his loyalty were torn between spouse and, well, spouse.

  7. Jack Hughes says:

    Official Communique from the Office of the Supreme Darlek

    The Dalek community wishes to make it quite clear that we do not agree with the use of our image to promote heresy, we are loyal Sons of the Holy Father and offer him our gooo-felt support during this difficult time.

    Furthermore we will be suing roman catholic wymen priests for the damage they have caused the Darlek community by using our image, we will also be running full page adds in the Catholic Herald, the Tablet, the Times of London and the WallStreet Journal to disassosciate ourselves with this movement.

    Yours Truely

    Darlek Cann (Crucible Press Secretary)
    Floor 12243
    The Crucible
    Medusa Cascade

  8. MattnSue says:

    There is no affirmation. They don’t want to belong to it. They want to WANT TO belong to it. You get much more credibility as a protester if you can claim that you are being denied something. If these were, for example, a bunch of Methodists who decided to say “your church is wrong because you should be more like us,” it would get very little attention. But by claiming they are members of a church, whose rights are being denied, they get much more attention, and get photos like this distributed to more people.

  9. PostCatholic says:

    They don’t claim to be Roman Catholic. I’d leave issue of their religious leadership within their community. Personally, I think anything but congregational polity is a corrupt leadership model. I am guessing that your interest in the internal politicking of the Anglican/Episcopal church has to do with hopes of a reunification?

  10. rfox2 says:

    Mother Theresa once made the comment that she had never seen a more impoverished country than the USA. When I look at this photo, all I see is an impoverishment of religion. I can’t say that this is disheartening, even if it were Catholics standing there. I am really and truly sorry for them. It’s as though the beauty of the Christian religion has completely and utterly passed them by. I’m sorry that for them, the Christian religion is such a joke. They are missing out on a reality that obviously surpasses their imagination. It’s tragic they are so young (except for the woman on the right), and so deceived.

  11. chcrix says:

    No, they don’t hate what they claim to want to be.

    They hate that anyone is allowed to disagree with their position.

    Since they think it is ‘right’ that there are women priests or bishops, it is therefore ‘wrong’ that any organized religion hold otherwise.

    Old fashioned Protestantism was cleaner. When you couldn’t hack it you just founded your own new cult – anabaptist, Muggletonian, whatever.

    But modern religion is tinged with the pseudo-legal reasoning of the modern state. Nothing is outside of the purview of state sponsored compulsion to right wrongs and triumph over evil – and this means you if you dare to disagree.

  12. priests wife says:

    infinite grace- married priests and women ‘priests’ are not the same- it is such a sorrow that they get mixed up.

    And your husband tells you everything that happens at work? My husband’s work is also a vocation and NO it is not divided loyalties that he would NEVER tell me what happens at confession. Your flippant words are an insult to loyal priests- married or celibate- everywhere.

  13. tealady24 says:

    The subconscious mind is a funny thing, isn’t it?
    Trick or treat anyone?
    Halloween, after all, is treated like a season, not a day, so, what the heck!

  14. melafwife says:

    Trick-or-Treaters keep getting older and older, alright grab a Snickers.

  15. ScholaLady says:

    The robot in the sign is a Dalek, bad guys from a British sci-fi series, so I’m thinking this must be a British group since only the nerdiest Americans know what they are. Daleks generally go around shrieking “ex-ter-min-ate” in shrill metallic voices. I suppose the guy with the sign was trying to be cute, but since Daleks are supposed to be evil, using their image to support wymyn bishops seems self defeating.

    By the way, LOL @ Jack Hughs/

  16. RickMK says:

    They really do look like Halloween costumes.
    How can anybody expect to be taken seriously while wearing a Halloween costume? The only way they could be taken seriously is if they are really just mocking the people who want women priests!

  17. It’s sad. :( Their feminist ideals mixed with their theology makes them think that the role of a bishop is to exercise power over their ‘church’ (or for Catholics the Church), and since the bishop’s role is to exercise power, women should be placed in power over men as often as men are in power over women.
    They’ve got it all wrong though, because the episcopate isn’t about power at all.

  18. Dear Priests Wife – meant no offense and wasn’t trying to be flip. I only react and speak to what I know and that’s not the Eastern right of which I know just about nothing. The idea of a married priest is just so foreign to me just as foreign as a woman priest would be to me so I lumped them together. I’m sorry for the generalization without clarification. I just get so frustrated over there always having to be a fight or a protest over everything.

  19. Anne C. says:

    They want to be a part of the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church already has power. They know that if they broke off and started their own sect or “religion,” they would be one of thousands of others!

    A great book about feminism in the Church is “Ungodly Rage: The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism,” by Donna Steichen. It is eye-opening and frightening. We are blessed to have a Pope (the last 2, actually) who considers the question closed! Here are two links I found:


    or, if Fr. Z. gets the credit (!) : HERE.

  20. Denita says:

    Father Z: Love the Dalek picture. What diocese does he run? Wish he could assemillate a few liturgical abusers here in the States. LOL
    InfiniteGrace, while I do agree that women shouldn’t be priests or bishops, I hope you weren’t saying that women aren’t fulfilled or are truly women unless they’re married with children. The only trouble I have with the Church sometimes is that it seems to ignore unmarried women, especially virgins, who have no call to religious life. Hense, I had asked about consecrated virgins. I’m 49, my age excludes me from religious vocations even if I were called. It’s very hard on a woman like me, when people think that wife and mother is the highest calling for laywomen. And don’t say I can mother “spiritual children” either. It’s not the same.

  21. medievalist says:

    Of course they hate the thing they want to join. Great Britain only joined the EU to get inside and muck it up (viz Yes, Minister).

  22. Joseph-Mary says:

    It looks like Halloween costumes.

  23. Joseph-Mary says:

    And to the priest’s wife:

    I was speaking to a priest’s wife over the weekend. He was an Episcopalian first. And now as a Catholic priest in a big parish it is terribly terribly difficult. He comes home exhausted and has little time for his wife and the two children left at home who are teens. The kids are complaining because their dad has no time for them. And it is true, he does not have time ever since he took on thousands of spiritual children and the daily demands, full time demands, of a big parish. To have to live this divided life is a big cross.

    The married protestants do not have daily Mass and confessions and all the rest and can better juggle the two vocations but they also struggle I am told.

  24. Ezra says:

    It’s amusing to think that these mitred protesters have as much “right” to their attire as Rowan Williams. So long as Anglicans are determined to remain Anglicans, let them consecrate women to the episcopate: their orders will be every bit as valid as their male counterparts, and those who have eyes to see will possess one more clue as to the Church of England’s true nature.

  25. THREEHEARTS says:

    Any front but theirs

  26. Phillip says:

    My immediate thought upon seeing the photo was that they were pretending to be students at Hogwarts. Then I read the signs.

  27. Gail F says:

    I would suggest that the Dalek guy hold a sign that says “con-SHE-crate,” but I don’t want to give them any ideas….

  28. Tony Layne says:

    Father, did you get this picture from Bad Vestments?

  29. gmaria says:

    LOL…They look like little girls playing dress up at home. It’s too ridiculous to say any more…

  30. AnAmericanMother says:

    This is an Anglican group called “Women and the Church”. Campaigning in England and Wales for bishopesses. Aside from the fact that you’d think they’d have learned their lesson from the awful example of Mrs. Proudie, they just demonstrate that the Anglicans and Episcopalians have devolved into a collection of political action committees.
    And yes, it looks like Hallowe’en. Political street theater always does.

  31. paperclip says:

    Yuck! I always feel slightly ill when I see a woman dressed as a priest, even more so when they dress as a bishop (and I’m a woman!) You’re right though, they don’t respect the institution, they just want the respect that comes with it.

  32. kiloran says:

    Somebody should remember them that good advise: “Don’t ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up”. But I guess these ladies know why things are as they are . . . as the enemies of Church.
    Nothing better (worse) than evil disguised as a right. And rights enjoy of permanent support nowadays! But, dear little Right, where is your father Mr. Duty?

  33. Charlotte Allen says:

    If you like the above photo, visit romancatholicwomenpriests.com for many, many more of its ilk. Here are three conclusions I drew from looking at all the photos:

    1. Women priests have late-in-life vocations.
    2. Women priests like to design their own vestments, with unusual motifs and color combinations.
    3. Women priests smile, smile, smile when they administer the sacraments. They smile when they give out Communion, they smile when they baptize babies, and they smile when they ordain other women priests.

  34. irishgirl says:

    Father Z-loved that robot with the biretta! You are so clever!
    Denita-I totally agree with your comment to InfiniteGrace. I’m in the same boat as you, as a middle-aged single Catholic woman (I’m a little older than you-I’m 57). And I feel just as you do, that the Church pays little or no attention to those of us who are ‘single limbo’ and either don’t want to get married or are considered ‘too old’ for religious life.
    Going back to the picture in this post, I get so disgusted with women who are always ‘butting into’ things they have no business being in!

  35. Denita – no I never said that being a wife and mother are the only things a woman should be- they are what my vocation is and I get attacked for not wanting to be more than that all the time. The question is always when am I going back to work. When will I use my college degree etc. It’s never good enough to just be a wife and mother. Sigh. Sorry.

  36. Jack Hughes says:

    @Infinite Grace

    As a Single man (and therefore wholly unquallified to speak on the issue) I just wondered if find working (even if it was only part-time) and being a wife and mother (presumably you homeschool) to be mutually exclusive?

    @Denita & Irishgirl

    I sympathise, even if at 23 I’m slightly younger than you ladies :), I still don’t feel at ease in ‘not quite sure what my vocation is land’.

  37. lethargic says:

    Re the so-called Roman Catholic Wymynpriests … Acts of the Apostasy has a Priestess Project ongoing … “adopt a priestess” and pray for her … AofA will match you up with someone.

  38. Rich says:

    Good point about how they are dressed, Father. The painted placard of the robot doesn’t make them look any better, either.

  39. Denita says:

    @ InfiniteGrace do you mean other Catholics ask you if you’re working? Because what I meant to say is that The Church often ignores singles with no religious vocation. On the other hand, wifes and mothers get all the attention. Just look at the net! The only thing out there for people like me is ads for young singles and/or ads for finding a spouse- ie Catholic Match, etc. I can sympathize if your friends are secular and bothering you about not working, but the Catholic Church shows you a LOT of attention.
    BTW I meant “Exterminate,” not “Assimilate.” I was thinking about the Borg. :P

  40. irishgirl says:

    Right again, Denita! And not only the Net, it’s the same in print media, too. There’s all kinds of meetings and events in parishes and dioceses that are geared to married women and mothers, but absolutely ZILCH for singles, unless one is young. After age 35, and you’re either not married with kids or in priesthood or religious life, you’re pretty much treated like you’re invisible! And all you’re good for then is waiting for the seniors’ groups!
    I’ve written more than one letter to Catholic papers and magazines about how the Church ignores singles over 35. And still they’re clueless!

  41. AnAmericanMother says:

    I wish you were in our parish. We have lots of stuff for that “in between” group of not-married but too old for the Young Singles. There are a couple of formal groups, plus other general interest groups that actively seek out our singles. After all, they have something that those of us with spouses and kids do NOT have — more time! (or at least fewer obvious excuses!)

  42. Anne C. says:

    @irishgirl – Our parish also has such an active, fun-sounding singles group (for “older” singles – I’m almost exactly your age!), that I, as a married woman now, find myself wanting to join in on their activities! Even though it’s been 26 years (I married in my thirties), sometimes – when I hear the announcement for “singles” – I have to catch myself, and realize that they’re not speaking to me!

    (And, even though the group’s focus is far from being on helping members to become unqualified to remain in the group, I know of at least two married couples who met there.)

    I wonder, if there are others in similar circumstances at your parish, whether you might think about starting something similar. . . You sound like someone who is fun to be with and would have tons of good ideas! ; )

  43. Denita says:

    @American Mother No, we don’t always have “More time.” Even though I’m unable to work, there are things I cannot do. I belong to a Latin Mass community, and thus my “parish” doesn’t have these things.
    Anne c. If the function of that “group is not on “paring up,” why did you mention it? I’m not looking for a social group or volunteer activities. I’m looking to be accepted for who I am and for more consideration. You can tell me to put God first, but go home and be with your family. Sorry, but that’s how I feel. I’m the only Catholic in my family (parents gone,3 siblings). I have no support from them. I don’t want to leave the Church again because of this. I left the last time because I didn’t feel accepted.
    Irishgirl, I wish I had your email address. I would love to contact you.

  44. AnAmericanMother says:

    That was just a tease from a busy mother who just got the last kid out of the house! Did not mean to hurt your feelings.
    You might start something, if your Latin Mass parish doesn’t have something. Our local Latin Mass parish has some interesting groups that would be appropriate for all ages — including a sacred art consortium and a Perpetual Adoration group. Talk to your pastor, he may have some ideas.

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