ROME: Sacra Liturgia Conference – Day 4

My usual Roman bar breakfast.

The days begins. We are about to have a talk by Msgr. Newton of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, for former Anglicans. He is reading a paper for Msgr. Andrew Burnham.

Newton is explaining that, while they are formally part of the Roman Rite, they preserve Anglican liturgical patrimony. He says that many of those who belong to the UK Ordinariate have tended to be liturgically faithful (even high) and close to the Roman Rite. We are told that there is work being done in Rome right now on various rites for the Ordinariate by an interdicasterial group Anglicanae traditiones. He used the image of a fragment of a vase being glued back into the larger original source.

May I just add here… Benedict XVI is the Pope of Christian Unity.

Newton (Burnham) now speaks a bit about “the black rubric” and Cranmerian commmunion order.

Just heard a new version of a term: Anglo-papalist. “Papalist”… great word.


The paper quotes László Dobszay about the Catholic liturgical law allowing substitution of “another apt song” as being like “anthrax in the envelope”. I think we all know that results have varied. On the other hand, in the Anglican tradition, since the 19th c. Tractarians and others tried to bring some medieval hymns and Catholic ideas back into Anglican worship. So, in the Anglican tradition hymn singing “added value”. That hasn’t recently been in the case in some Catholic worship.

Learned a new term “Prayerbook Catholic”.

Second Vatican Council affected Anglican worship as well.

Newton (Burnham) talks about what from the Anglican tradition could enrich the Roman Missal. There is also some interest in the Sarum Use (suppressed in the 16th c.). Antiquarian? It didn’t seem to match the needs of Anglicans in UK or in N America and Australia (for whom it was too foreign.

What I wonder what from the Roman Tradition might enrich the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite?

Newton (Burnham) speaks about the problems of the Episcopalian rites.


Jeffrey Tucker was asked to talk about liturgy and the internet.



We had a little lunch like… thing… in the courtyard.

Now we have Raymond Card. Burke on liturgical law!


BTW… some of us are live tweeting with #SacLit or #saclit

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Liturgy Science Theatre 3000, New Evangelization, Our Catholic Identity, Pope of Christian Unity and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.


  1. jeff says:

    Dear Fr Z, I don’t believe that the Sarum rite was ever suppressed. The Recusants had developed an ultra-montanist stance and voluntarily chose the Sarum rite. I believe that when the English hierarchy was being reestablished Rome is supposed to have asked them if they would like to use the Sarum Rite but they chose the Tridentine.

  2. vetusta ecclesia says:

    Something that we could happily take from the c19 Tractarians is the wealth of English versions of the Office Hymns, many in translations by JM Neale. They can be found in The English Hymnal and its derivatives.
    Surely recusancy pre-dates ultra-montanism – the followers of latter would not have chosen the Sarum Rite.

  3. Eriugena says:

    Justorum animæ in manu Dei sunt, et non tanget illos tormentum mortis.

    News coming in of a French monk (definite) and three Franciscans (not yet certain) having been publicly beheaded by Mohammedans in Syria.

    Sapientiam Sanctorum narrent populi, et laudes eorum nuntiet ecclesia: nomina autem eorum vivent in saeculum saeculi.

  4. Athelstan says:

    Hello Fr. Z,

    As a Catholic in the U.S. Ordinariate, I followed your comments this morning on Msgr. Burnham’s paper with especially keen interest. I look forward to reading the paper when it becomes available.

    There is indeed interest in Sarum out here. But contra Jeff, I think the question with Sarum is not so much whether it was suppressed (it seems fairly clear that it wasn’t), but whether it has lapsed from desuetude. I think that was the reasoning as to why Fr. Finnegan was urged to cease celebrations of Sarum back in the late 90’s. But much has changed at Ecclesia Dei and CDW since those days…

  5. Sid Cundiff in NC says:

    What is your usual Roman bar? Mine is Tazza d’Oro at the Pantheon.

    Summorum Pontificum and the Anglican Ordinariates will be remembered as among Benedict XVI’s greatest achievements.

  6. Robbie says:

    The effects of this conference may be very limited if the news CNA is reporting is correct. According to them, Cardinal Llovera is likely to become the Archbishop of Madrid, Spain. With his spot at the Congregation for Diving Worship open, Pope Francis is likely to appoint Piero Marini as new head of CDW. He was Papal Master of Ceremonies under JPII and was Annibale Bugnini’s personal secretary in the 1970’s.

    If this move happens, it tells us much about Francis’ style. He’s already talked about an emancipated formation and a Mass without superstructures. If he brings in Marini rather than someone who is already a Cardinal like Ranjith or Burke, then I think it’s clear Francis is a man of the 1970’s when it comes to the Liturgy. I think we essentially knew that, but a move like this would go a long way towards confirming it.

  7. Ben Kenobi says:

    Absolutely, Sid. I was shocked as an Ex-Anglican to see him do that. “Shock and Awe” indeed. To me it felt that Benedict not only understood us, but also that he understood me personally. After so many years of being told that I was ‘backwards’ and ‘out of step’ that’s what convinced me that I was truly ‘home’.

  8. Steven Surrency says:

    I too am afraid of +Marini’s appointment. Perhaps the buzz is wrong. Perhaps it is Mnsr. Guido Marini who will receive this promotion? I am not going to hold my breath, but I will pray.

  9. Robbie says:

    Steven Surrency

    Sadly, the article states clearly CDW likely to be headed by Piero Marini, the former personal secretary of Annibale Bugnini.

    Maybe Father Zuhlsdorf can assuage our fears and concerns, but Marini earned criticism as JPII’s master of Papal Ceremonies for his “unique” style. I think the reform of the reform, such as it was, would be shelved.

  10. McCall1981 says:

    Does anyone know anything about Archbishop Parolin? I tried looking him up, but couldn’t find much.

  11. Pingback: Father Z live blogs a talk by Msgr. Andrew Burnham delivered by Msgr. Keith Newton in Rome | Foolishness to the world

  12. Robbie says:

    If the rumors are true and Piero Marini does head the CDW, here’s a piece on him written by John Allen. In it, Marini came out in favor of same sex civil unions. Given this information, I hope the rumors are not correct.

  13. majuscule says:

    Robbie, I was thinking of that article, too.

    I hope it IS just a rumor. I PRAY it is just a rumor.

    I want Cardinal Arinze back…

  14. Steven Surrency says:

    I knew it wasn’t Guido, but I was hoping (and joking). It is all speculation right now. +Piero’ Marini’s appointment would, it seems to me, appear to be a direct repudiation of a major thrust of Pope Benedict’s Papacy. I think it would not be tacky to do this. Perhaps a more neutral person who symbolized less ideological onesidedness could be chosen. I don’t expect Burke or Ranjith. But perhaps a middle ground? Pray people. If +PM were appointed, I would really struggle with the sin of despair.

  15. HighMass says:

    STEVEN AND ROBBIE, I too fear it is going to be a re-appointment of P. Marini… many of you watch P. Benedicts Last Public Mass in St. Peters on Ash Wednesday???

    Well in the front row grinning like a Cheshire Cat was Piero Marini…..of course we all know what he Thinks about P. Benedict and S.P. after all he and Bugnini had alot to do with fabricating the N.O.

    Steven I too will really Struggle with the sin of depair…..if P.Marini is appointed….Yes It seems that Pope Francis is stuck in the 1970’s when it comes to Liturgy…..

    Every Post, where you can comment….It is mentioned how Much we miss Our P. Benedict………

    Pray everyone.

  16. Suburbanbanshee says:

    When will people stop jumping for joy and moaning in despair over rumors?

    Seriously, folks, learn some moderation. I love you, but some people in the Catholic Internet community never learn. If every rumor and whisper we’ve heard from the Vatican had turned out to be true, we’d have had eighty popes since 1979, and everybody would be going to the Assyrian Rite in Aramaic while dancing buck naked.

  17. Cantor says:

    Thank you, Suburbanbanshee.

    I’d likely have phrased it differently, but your phraseology is so much more… memorable!

  18. Animadversor says:

    HighMass, you say

    Steven I too will really Struggle with the sin of depair…..if P.Marini is appointed…

    You know, right, that the sin of despair refers to despair of God’s mercy? I think whatever’s going through your mind right now surely can’t be that. Let’s hope it’s just unwarranted pessimism. By the way, your expression “fabricating the N.O.” is very apt!

    Guys and gals, I think this rumor first emerged in Riposte catholiquenot quite two months ago. Surely, if it really had legs we would have heard a lot more before now in the Anglophone press. You know how the Latin media love their rumors, not, of course, that they love them so much that they’d actually fabricate (thanks, HighMass) any.

    On the other hand, maybe….

    Suburbanbanshee, pereas qui ante nos nostra dixisti: odi te et amo.

    More seriously, all that’s been going on lately in the Church and in the country has made me feel an unholy anger against not a few perps (two especially) and I’ve thought, “Oh, if only I had thirty seconds with that person, preferably in front of a large audience of his (or her) admirers…” Carissime beate Hieronyme, defendito me a memet ipso!

  19. Athelstan says:

    With his spot at the Congregation for Diving Worship open, Pope Francis is likely to appoint Piero Marini as new head of CDW.

    I’ll be piling sandbags on our sacristy windows if anyone needs me.

  20. Great to see a mention of Laszlo Dobszay! Restoration and Organic Development of the Roman Rite changed everything about how I look at the concept of reform of the reform.

  21. Janol says:

    Besides John Allen, Sandro Magister also recently named Piero Marini in “Vatican Diary: Six more votes for “gay” unions”:

  22. majuscule says:

    Let us recall the Marini rumors that have been mongered of late and have still not come true!

    Abp. Marini was not brought back as papal MC.

    Msgr. Marini was not replaced by someone else even if it wasn’t Abp. Marini. (And all that elaborate gold stuff is still on the altar even if vestments are simpler.)

    Msgr. Marini did not take part in the Liturgy Conference because _______.

    The rumors also said an announcement of new appointments would (probably) (possibly) (certainly) be made today. Or it might be done quietly by press release…

    Could be happening as I type.

    Let us pray. It’s what we do!

  23. HighMass says:

    ANIMADVERSOR….you are correct about the depair of God’s Mercy, Dear Lord Please Forgive…..

    Do be honest and not go on and on……re: bugnini…..and his fabrication of the N.O. I recall the first Masses said in ( Latin/English(1964/1965) in fact I still have the yellow response cards we were given to make it “easier to follow/respond….

    If one can speculate whatB. John XXIII had in mind re: Liturgy, (after what I have read be it right or wrong) one can say it was B JOHN XXIII’S intention to make some adjustments to the Mass of 1962, i.e. readings and Gospel in the vernacular….the parts that were sung Kyrie, Gloria, etc. remained in Latin…..who knows???? Also read C. Ottaviani’s letter to Paul VI Sept. 1969… mentions many abuses that would happen if the N.O. was implimented…..sorry I got off the subject ….P. Marini and Clan just make me want to speak out more and more…..

  24. Steven Surrency says:

    You are all correct of course. The sin of despair is to not trust in the greatness of God’s mercy. I used the term inaccurately. I am also guilty of giving in to the internet rumor mill.

Comments are closed.