What Did The Pope Really Say? 2 – Proselytism

For a while I have intended to write something on Pope Francis’ harsh comments in his informal chat related by the atheist newsie Eugenio Scalfari about proselytism.

The Pope smiles and says: “Some of my colleagues who know you told me that you will try to convert me.”

It’s a joke I tell him. My friends think it is you want to convert me.

He smiles again and replies: “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good.”

Some people are worried about this, as if Francis is saying that the Church should not try to convert people to Christianity, to formal membership in the Catholic Church.

That would mean that Francis directly contradicted John Paul II in Redemptoris missio 47:

The Church calls all people to this conversion, following the example of John the Baptist, who prepared the way for Christ by “preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” (Mk 1:4), as well as the example of Christ himself, who “after John was arrested,…came into Galilee preaching the Gospel of God and saying: ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the Gospel'” (Mk 1:14-15).

Nowadays the call to conversion which missionaries address to non-Christians is put into question or passed over in silence. It is seen as an act of “proselytizing”; it is claimed that it is enough to help people to become more human or more faithful to their own religion, that it is enough to build communities capable of working for justice, freedom, peace and solidarity. What is overlooked is that every person has the right to hear the “Good News” of the God who reveals and gives himself in Christ, so that each one can live out in its fullness his or her proper calling. This lofty reality is expressed in the words of Jesus to the Samaritan woman: “If you knew the gift of God,” and in the unconscious but ardent desire of the woman: “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst” (Jn 4:10, 15).

Some of you are going to run around in circles with your hair on fire now saying that “FRANCIS IS AGAINST JOHN PAUL II!”

I remind the honorable readership that none of the statements that Francis made in either interview are complete statements.

Furthermore, there is no indication that Francis thought that what he was engaged in was more more than a conversation.  There is not the slightest shred of evidence that Francis thought he was teaching officially in his role as Successor of Peter.

The “proselytism” that Pope Francis scorns is not to be equated with “evangelization”.

Surely what Francis scorns is the crude proselytizing à la Pentecostals and Mormons in Latin America. That is the sort of proselytism with which Francis would be familiar.  That is the sort of proselytism that we will probably be accused of when we engage in any kind of evangelization.

Is Francis breaking with his predecessors or is he simply stressing some different aspect of the same issues as his predecessors?

Let’s read Francis through Benedict.

Benedict XVI spoke about proselytism when he was in Aparecida in 2007, a gathering of CELAM which had a great impact on then-Card. Bergoglio.

Benedict said:

The Church does not engage in proselytism. Instead, she grows by “attraction“- just as Christ “draws all to himself” by the power of his love, culminating in the sacrifice of the Cross, so the Church fulfills her mission to the extent that, in union with Christ, she accomplishes every one of her works in spiritual and practical imitation of the love of her Lord.

We don’t proselytize.  The Church “attracts”.  She attracts especially through spiritual and corporal works of mercy performed through true charity.

I don’t see a lot of daylight between Francis and Benedict on this point.

Finally, putting on my Cato the Elder cap for a moment, as I wrote after having read the Scalfari chat:

  • abortion is still murder,
  • gay marriage is still no marriage,
  • we’re going to jaw-jaw with nonbelievers,
  • we’re still going to be a minority,
  • Former-Fr. – Mister Reynolds is still excommunicated!
Posted in Benedict XVI, Francis, New Evangelization, Our Catholic Identity, Reading Francis Through Benedict | Tagged , ,
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SPAIN: Terrorist Bomb in Basílica de Nuestra Señora del Pilar de Zaragoza

I wonder if the MSM will have any coverage of this.

From freerepublic.com

Left-wing anarchists blamed for Zaragoza Basilica bombing [Spain]

A small bomb consisting of a camping gas cylinder combined with gunpowder exploded in Zaragoza Basilica in Spain on Wednesday afternoon. No one was injured and left-wing anarchists against the Bourbon monarchy are being blamed.

The bomb exploded in the central area of the Zaragoza Basilica of our Lady of the Pillar (Basílica de Nuestra Señora del Pilar de Zaragoza) at around 13:50 local time. There were no injuries and no damage to the Baroque church was reported.

Spanish news agency Efe is reporting that police suspect left-wing anarchists in the placing of the home-made device. Reportedly the bomb bore the hallmarks of similar devices used by left-wing groups….

A large cloud of smoke and dust emanated from the explosion, frightening parishioners who were waiting to attend Mass at 14:00. Fortunately the area where the bomb exploded was empty of people at the time….

Police believe that the work is being organized by radical anarchist leaders from Greece and Italy. Information Commissioner General, Enrique Barón says “it is terrorism, pure and simple.”

One of your readers sent this:

I don’t know whether or not you’ve already heard about this, but yesterday someone planted a small explosive device in the Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar (Nuestra Señora del Pilar) in Zaragoza.

The explosive device was a homemade one, created using a small butane gas tank and hidden underneath a pew in the main chapel of the Basilica. Thank God there was no Mass being offered at the time and that no one was sitting on that pew. No one was seriously injured, although one woman who was praying near where the explosive device was placed was reported to have suffered some damage in one ear. The basilica did not suffer any significant damage beyond the destruction of several pews. The altar and its magnificent marble altarpiece were unaffected, as was the Pillar and the image of Our Lady.
12 October is the Feast of Our Lady of the Pillar. Not only is she the patron Zaragoza, but of all of Spain, and is a national holiday throughout the country. It’s also the Día de la Hispanidad in most of the Spanish-speaking world, celebrating the cultural bonds and linguistic ties between Spain and her former territories. There’s little chance that the timing of this was accidental then, as the city prepares for the festival. Initial reports suggest that individuals from Spain linked to an Italian anarchist group may be behind the attack.
Perhaps you also remember that a bomb of similar construction was placed in the cathedral of Madrid back in February. In that case, the device was discovered by a parishioner and deactivated by police before it exploded.
Below is a link to one of the regional newspapers in Aragon with info about yesterday’s explosion in the Basilica. If I have a bit of time on my break, I’ll try to find one in English to forward to you, or I’ll translate the most relevant sections of that article.
Explota un artefacto en la Basilica del Pilar
God bless, Father. Be assured of my prayers for you, and please say a quick one for me today if you can.

UPDATE:

WaPo has it.

 

Posted in The Coming Storm, The future and our choices, The Last Acceptable Prejudice | Tagged , ,
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Your Good News

Do you have some good news to share with the readership?

Let’s us know.

Posted in SESSIUNCULA |
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Pres. Obama praises Pope Francis for shaking off “obsession”

From Reuters:

Obama welcomes Pope Francis’ remarks on gays, abortion
Wed, Oct 02 17:03 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President Barack Obama on Wednesday welcomed Pope Francis’ recent remarks that the Catholic Church must shake off [blech]an obsession with teachings on abortion, contraception and homosexuals, saying the pontiff was showing incredible humility.

“I tell you, I have been hugely impressed with the pope’s pronouncements,” Obama said in a CNBC interview.

Obama has worked to expand gay rights as president and last year backed same-sex marriage. He also supports the use of contraception and a woman’s right to an abortion.

Pope Francis told the Italian Jesuit Journal last month that the Church had “locked itself up in small things” by its obsession with abortion, contraception and homosexuality.

Obama said the pope seemed to be someone who “lives out the teachings of Christ” and shows “incredible humility” toward the poor.

“That’s a quality I admire,” said Obama, who has yet to meet the new pope.

Listening to Pres. Obama speak about the teachings of Christ makes me want to seek a hazmat shower.

(This video is no longer available.)

Visit NBCNews.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

Posted in Francis, SESSIUNCULA | Tagged ,
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YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS

YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTSPlease use the sharing buttons!  Thanks!

Registered or not, will you in your charity please take a moment look at the requests and to pray for the people about whom you read?

Continued from THESE.

I get many requests by email asking for prayers. Many requests are heart-achingly grave and urgent.

As long as my blog reaches so many readers in so many places, let’s give each other a hand.  We should support each other in works of mercy.

If you have some prayer requests, feel free to post them below. You have to be registered here to be able to post.

Lately, truth be known, I have received an awful lot of requests lately.

One of them I’ll share: Please ask St. Joseph to help a guy who really needs $8915.58 by Monday. Pray for that.  I find that when I am precise with St. Joseph (exactly what, and by when) he comes through for me.

Finally, I have a pressing personal petition.  Moreover, I start a period of traveling on Sunday.  I ask your prayers for my health and a safe first flight.

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Pope Francis v. Medjugorje?

Someone alerted me to a piece at the Italian site Corrispondenza Romana about something that Pope Francis said during a morning “fervorino” at Mass.

My translation:

Last Saturday 7 September during his morning meditation in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae, Pope Francis, speaking on the theme “there is no Christian without Jesus” criticized Christian “revelationists” and expressed his strong reservations about the supposed apparitions at Medjugorje.

The official site of the Holy See and the L’Osservatore Romano, however, purged his words of the reference to Medjugorje, confining itself to refer to them in these terms: “There is another group of Christians without Christ: those who look things that are kind of rare, a bit special, who chase after some private revelations,” whereas instead revelation was concluded with the New Testament. The Holy Father warned about the desire of such Christians to go “to the spectacle of revelation, to hear some new things”. But – and this is the exhortation that Pope directed to them – “Pick up the Gospel!”

Here’s the deal.

There isn’t an attribution here, a source, the name of the person who heard the Holy Father speak specifically about Medjugorje.

That said, if you are interested in Medjugorje in a positive way, I suggest that you get used to the idea that there may be an official pronouncement about it that you are not going to like. My spies used to tell me that the former Pope was not a supporter either.

I’m just saying.

Finally, the Holy Father doesn’t seem to be against apparitions in general.  The Holy Father is a huge supporter of Aparecida and he will be welcoming the statue of Our Lady of Fatima in St. Peter’s Square on 12 October.

With that news, I will keep the combox closed.  I’ll allow pingbacks.  If I get interesting comments by email, I may post something… and I may not.

Posted in Francis | Tagged , ,
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Tornielli calls into question accuracy of Pope Francis’ interview. Fr. Z asks a serious question.

Andrea Tornielli has a piece today at Sacri Palazzi wherein he calls into question the veracity of Scalfari’s account of the interview with Pope Francis.

I don’t have time to translate the whole thing for you at the moment, since I am off to lunch and then to the firing range for some therapy.

However, Tornielli points out that more than one cardinal told him that Francis did not go apart into a room before he accepted the election as Pope during the conclave.  That’s just one point.

However, Fr. Federico Lombardi, SJ, the papal spokesman, responded to a question from journalists, saying:  “It isn’t clear to me that the text of the interview with the Pope on La Repubblica was revised.”

Tornielli goes on to write:

“Lombardi didn’t deny any passage in the conversation, and he explained that the overall reconstruction of the papal affirmations was faithful.  But [NB…] he made it clear that it is necessary to be cautious in attributing with precision to the Pope every single quoted word.”

Is that so?

Then I have to ask:  If we aren’t sure about the exact words of the Pope:

Why the hell is the interview posted on the Vatican’s website in the category of “Speeches” of Pope Francis?!?

HERE

Tornielli calls into question accuracy of Pope Francis' interview. Fr. Z asks a serious question.

Click to go to the page.

What am I missing? Is it just because L’Osservatore Romano also printed it? If so… isn’t that enough? If people need to find it, they can find it there.

If we don’t know for sure that what La Repubblica printed is what Pope Francis actually said, then why is it posted on the Holy See’s website as if it is really a “speech” of Pope Francis?

We now rely on the more or less “faithful” reconstruction of the Pope’s words by an avowed atheist journalist who has for years had a bone to pick with the Catholic Church?

Will the interview be in the Acta too?

I’m just asking because I think it is important that we get the Pope’s words (read:thoughts) right. He’s the POPE, not the neighborhood butcher talking about the movie he saw last night.

Posted in Francis, I'm just askin'... | Tagged , , , ,
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Fr. Z asks your help for someone you know: Daniel Mitsui

I have written from time to time about the artist Daniel Mitsui.

First, right now, say a prayer for him and his family.

I now ask you to visit his online shop for reasons that will be obvious.  HERE

I read this on his blog.  HERE

My daughter, Alma Hildegard Mitsui, was born at 7:14 on Wednesday, 25 September. She is in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, and will likely remain there for a long time. She was born at 25 weeks and 4 days gestational age, and weighed 1 pound and 7 ounces. Please pray for her survival and health.

[…]

In your charity, consider ordering a piece of art from him, to help the family. You might have it framed and give it to your parish priest, if you don’t put on your own wall. I have one on mine and I have one outside my door in the hallway.

UPDATE:

Ooo.. I just saw his St. Joan of Arc for the first time.

And here is his Four Last Things!

And I very much want a set of his Stations of the Cross for my future chapel!  HERE

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Wm. Oddie on the rumor about Marini and the CDW

Wm. Oddie on the rumor about Marini and the CDW

P Marini style

William Oddie has a spot-on column at the UK’s best Catholic weekly, The Catholic Herald.

A few comments before we get to the main course.

First, a few years ago a book came out over the name of (Archbishop) Piero Marini, the former MC for John Paul II and, for a while, Benedict XVI. He is a disciple of the late Annibale Bugnini, supporter of “gay” marriage, herald of discontinuity, etc.  In that book, Marini attacked Benedict XVI and crowed that when the Consilium was meeting, they knew they were going to change doctrine by changing liturgical worship.

Context: The Consilium has just just taken a major step in moving from an informally meeting group to an officially and formally established body.  They have their first plenary session.

“They met in public to begin one of the greatest liturgical reforms in the history of the Western church.  Unlike the reform after Trent, it was all the greater because it also dealt with doctrine.”  (p. 46)

Wm. Oddie on the rumor about Marini and the CDW

P Marini style

They succeeded.  The work of the Consilium, in revising the Missale Romanum, did indeed change the Church’s doctrine. Change they way you pray and you change what you believe… and vice versa.

Second, we have to be ready to Be The Maquis.

Third, when the appointment takes place, I’ll believe it.

Is Pope Francis thinking of appointing as prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship a disciple of Annibale Bugnini deeply hostile to Benedict XVI’s reforms?

If Archbishop Piero Marini really is appointed, it will be an unmistakeable declaration that we are all to be plunged back into the hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture

By William Oddie

There have, it seems, for the last four or five months been persistent rumours from the eternal city that a dedicated opponent of Benedict XVI’s liturgical reorientation of the Church (certainly including Summorum Pontificum) is to be appointed prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship by Pope Francis. I have to say that these rumours had passed me by (a little fiddling round on the net reveals that Damian Thompson spotted them back in June) and I have only just caught up with them thanks to Fr Finigan, who in his indispensable blog The Hermeneutic of Continuity has this: “There is a rumour (and I understand from various sources that it is not a wild one) that Archbishop Piero Marini may be appointed as the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship. Archbishop Marini (not to be confused with the papal MC Mgr Guido Marini) was removed as papal MC by Pope Benedict. He is a disciple of the late Archbishop Bugnini and published a book A Challenging Reform: Realising the Vision of the Liturgical Renewal.” [That’s the book I mentioned.]

The foreword of this book says, I find, that it “is intended as a complement and supplement to the account of the liturgical reform published in 1985 by Annibale Bugnini, La riforma liturgica (1948 – 1975)”. Archbishop Bugnini, of course, was the chief architect of the “reformed” liturgy which actually emerged, and the great bugbear of liturgical traditionalists, a “Spirit of Vatican II” type if ever there was one. Piero Marini was his personal secretary, was himself deeply involved in the “reforms” and is still a fervent disciple. Fr Z has a killing story about Bugnini. When the Ayatollah Khomeini took control in Iran, he summoned the diplomatic corps into his presence and made them kneel down to him. Bugnini, then the papal nuncio to Iran, did it. He knelt. When news of this reached Rome, some wag in the Curia quipped that Bugnini was doing in Iran all the genuflections he had removed from the Mass.

The publishers of the English edition of Marini’s book, are an obviously highly ideological outfit, called the Liturgical Press, who also published the English edition of Bugnini’s book (of themselves, they say that “The Liturgical Press is a trusted publisher of liturgy, scripture, theology, and spirituality evolving to serve the changing needs of the Church”). About Marini’s book, they say this: “In these pages Archbishop Piero Marini reveals the vision, courage, and faith of the pastors and scholars who struggled to implement the Second Vatican Council’s teachings on the liturgy. While in some circles it is fashionable to propose ‘a reform of the liturgical reform’, any such revision needs to take into account the history of the consilium — the organism established by the Holy See to carry out the initial liturgical changes. This story of the work of the consilium offers a fascinating glimpse into the struggles and tensions that accompanied the realisation of the council’s dream to promote the ‘full, conscious and active participation’ of the faithful in Roman Catholic worship.” [Fascinating glimpse.  Road kill can be fascinating too.]

Well, we have been warned: there would be no more reform of the reform if these rumours are true: if Marini really does become prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship it will be back to square one with a vengeance. And a real message would be being sent out: that all those who have been issuing Jeremiads to the effect that Pope Francis’s pontificate is taking a radically different path from that of Pope Benedict will be proved right, and I among many others, who have been saying that there is a real continuity between the two popes, will have got it badly wrong. Back to Marini’s book. I haven’t yet read it (nor, unless he is appointed, do I intend to): but here’s part of its review in Adoremus (which I tend to trust) by Fr Neil J Roy:

[…]

Read the rest over there.

To Mr. Oddie I would respond, even if he is appointed as Prefect, we would have to see what, in fact, happens in the Congregation.

Posted in Francis, Liturgy Science Theatre 3000, The Drill | Tagged , , , , ,
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WDTPRS: What Did The Pope Really Say? 1 – UPDATES

I finally got the glacial site of the vile Italian daily La Repubblica to cough up the latest Franciscan interview… in Italian.

When I read in the English version that Pope allegedly said,

“The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood”,

I said to myself, “That can’t be right. Swap out brotherhood with something like ‘sisterhood’ and he sounds like an LCWR nun, and he is no fan of theirs or of their ‘female machismo’!”  No! Allow me to amend.  None of them would have said that.  They’ve grown beyond Jesus and words like “son”.  But you get my drift.  The Second Person of the Trinity did not incarnate in the “souls of men”.

So… What Did The Pope Really Say?  My emphasis.

Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza….

The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in soul of men the feeling of brotherhood.

Perhaps better… “awareness… sense” of brotherhood?

I would like to take that “sentimento” in the Italian sense of “awareness”, but since Pope Francis is fundamentally a Spanish speaker, I don’t know what he meant by it here. I suspect we have to hear “sentimento/sentimiento” as “feeling”.  Honestly, my Spanish isn’t quite strong enough yet to hear that possible nuance behind the Italian.  In Italian I would have said something like, “consapevolezza”… or, now that I think of it, “senso”.

We have to be careful with the reports about what Francis said.  We have to check the English version of the interview against the Italian.

I am sure there will be other examples.

UPDATE:

In the meantime, the vile La Repubblica has this as a headline right now, filtered to you from a twit on Twitter:

“Questo Papa è il Rohani del Vaticano”… “This Pope is the Rohani of the Vatican”.

Yah… that’s right.  Talk about not getting this at all.

UPDATE:

From a reader:

Pope Francis–“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them.”

Here, man “conceives” what is good or evil. Conceiving what is good or evil on an individual level is Moral Relativism.

Catholic Church in GS 16

16. In the depths of his conscience, man detects [Latin detegit] a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.(9) Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.(10) In a wonderful manner conscience reveals that law which is fulfilled by love of God and neighbor.

Here, man “detects a law” in his conscience he must be “obedient” to. Conscience “reveals that law”, not “conceived” by each according to one’s liking.

How do we reconcile these things that seem to be in direct opposition?

It think you may be over analyzing this on the basis of the English alone.

What Did The Pope Really Say?

Ciascuno ha una sua idea del Bene e del Male e deve scegliere di seguire il Bene e combattere il Male come lui li concepisce….

Each person has his idea of Good and of Evil and he must choose to follow Good and combat Evil as he perceives / understands them…

In this case, Italian “concepire” is clear understood in the sense of “understand, believe, perceive”, maybe even “grasp” and not English “conceive” in the sense of making something up on one’s own, as in “devise”.

In English we can say that “he conceived a plan”, which is something that he comes up with.  Otherwise, we can say that “he couldn’t conceive what she was rattling on about”, which means that he didn’t understand, couldn’t workout out what she was saying.  Be careful of “false friends” in translation. Sometimes similar words do not have the same meaning or the same impact.

Let’s turn back to your citation of GS16 with that “detects”.  Latin detego, detexi, detectum (compound of tego “to cover, hide”) is, in the first place, “to un-cover, lay bare” and also to “dis-cover, dis-close, de-tect”.

From Vatican website: In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience.  Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that.

Latin (doesn’t hack up the sentence): In imo conscientiae legem homo detegit, quam ipse sibi non dat, sed cui obedire debet, et cuius vox, semper ad bonum amandum et faciendum ac malum vitandum eum advocans, ubi oportet auribus cordis sonat: fac hoc, illud devita.

Fr. Z: In the depths of conscience man discovers the law which he does not give to himself, but which he is obliged to obey, and whose voice, always summoning him to do good and to avoid evil, whenever it is necessary rings in the ears of the heart: do this, shun that.

There is juridical language: lex, advoco.  However, the Holy Spirit is referred to in language both juridical and moral: Advocate, Counselor.  Advoco can also mean “console” and the Holy Spirit is called Consoler.

I love the image GS16 invokes: the “law’s voice summons” us to obligations, to obedience, to action.  It is as if we are, in the moment of “discovery” of the previously hidden evidence in the case, then placed before the bar in a moment of truth, when we are called to act justly and truthly in the face of the evidence that has been uncovered.

I digress.

I don’t see much daylight between Francis’ “concepisce”, rightly understood, and the GS 16 detegit.

Posted in "How To..." - Practical Notes, Francis | Tagged , , , ,
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