Archdiocese of Detroit says Michael Voris and RealCatholicTV.com are not “authorized” to use “Catholic”

For your opportune knowledge.

This comes from the website of the Archdiocese of Detroit.  You can decide for yourselves what you want to do with this information.

Statement regarding Real Catholic TV and its name Issued: Dec. 15, 2011Contact: Joe Kohn, infodesk@aod.org / (313) 237-5943  Print this statement (Español)

The Church encourages the Christian faithful to promote or sustain a variety of apostolic undertakings but, nevertheless, prohibits any such undertaking from claiming the name Catholic without the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority (see canon 216 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law). For some time, the Archdiocese of Detroit has been in communication with Mr. Michael Voris and his media partner at Real Catholic TV regarding their prominent use of the word “Catholic” in identifying and promoting their public activities disseminated from the enterprise’s production facility in Ferndale, Michigan. The Archdiocese has informed Mr. Voris and Real Catholic TV, RealCatholicTV.com, that it does not regard them as being authorized to use the word “Catholic” to identify or promote their public activities. Questions about this matter may be directed to the Archdiocese of Detroit, Department of Communications.

FacebookEmailPinterestGoogle GmailShare/Bookmark

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in New Evangelization, Our Catholic Identity, The Drill, The future and our choices and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

95 Responses to Archdiocese of Detroit says Michael Voris and RealCatholicTV.com are not “authorized” to use “Catholic”

  1. jameeka says:

    evidence?

  2. Cristero says:

    Didn’t the American “Catholic” Council have its meeting in Detroit this past June?

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/hello-detroit/

    Sancta Maria, ora pro nobis.

  3. Tradster says:

    Force “Catholic” out of “National Catholic Reporter” before going after Voris.

  4. ++Vigneron is a good guy, I gather. And Voris isn’t always helping. That said, yeah, it’d be nice if lefties got hammered 1/10th as hard as righties by the hierarchy.

  5. Clinton says:

    I wonder if Mr. Voris shouldn’t call their bluff and submit a request to whatever chancery
    official signs off on such things (that is, if the archdiocese even knows who that might be).
    If he is denied the use of the name “Catholic”, I assume the archdiocese would need to
    provide some rational explanation for their action. That would be some astonishing spin,
    and would certainly make the archdiocese look ridiculous when/if Rome overruled the decision
    on appeal. Meanwhile, Mr. Voris would have gained the moral authority to call out groups like
    the American Catholic Council and Catholics for a Free Choice (the pro-abortion group)
    for not also submitting to the archdiocese. The Archdiocese would have to explain why such
    groups were not given treatment similar to Mr. Voris’. Fun would ensue.

    I hope Mr. Voris considers calling the chancery’s bluff. Mr. Kohn would rue ever making his
    statement.

  6. This is a pity, but it strikes me as being akin to Apple lawyers firing a cease and desist to an enterprising 15 year old kid selling “make your iPhone white” sticker kits because anything else would be considered an abandonment of their duty to defend their trademarks.

    Unless one of those “catholyc” organisations is headquartered in +Vigneron’s domain and deliberately overlooked while Voris is chased, the call isn’t really fair. The archd. only has competency (ie responsibility) for organisations within its own see.

    Still, this might simply be a matter of St Michael’s Media and RealCatholicTV formally approaching the archd. for permission to use the word, and maybe jumping through some bureaucratic hoops without whining about it on YouTube. Of course there may yet be some rotten apples in the diocesan curia looking to make this as painful a process as possible, but since both V and +V are good men of Christ, such an occasion may well be the perfect opportunity to weed them out.

  7. mike cliffson says:

    I have a vague memory that this question has surfaced on Fr Z’s blog before, in connection with that hospital in Phoenix, wasn’t it? If it aborts, it can no longer use the word.
    One thing is a Bishop’s powers,another is the wisdom , charity , etc of their use.
    And ceasar’s wife : the scandal of who a diocese or archdiocese are publicly seen to be acting on whilst others get what resembles a free pass, even when there have been private remonstations etc one wots not of.
    For some years I have understoond as above thatif you publicly operate under a name including “catholic”, as canon law rather than local ,US in this case, then you ARE subject to the local ordinary. I met it in Europe – the “catholic” school, with priest chaplain etc most of my kids were at had an objective written point to pin my (wider)objections on: a text book descibing Our Lord as ” teacher who emerged from the people and whose simple languague facilitated his immediate circle to gain a wide popular following after he had gone”.
    However, it did and does not have catholic legally in its name.Physically, its here.
    Where’s Voris? So he has studios in Michigan. I f he could belong anywhere , so could aborting catholic hospitals, which serve anyone who can travel there, but are very physically fixed? Porn providers? Soidisant “Prochoice”Catholics?
    This commbox is not where Rome get its ideas from, but surely internet organizations could be dealt with? Whether or not one agrees that at this very moment Voris needs to be obedient to some authority, sooner or later he and his organization will, as do we all.
    Is it too simple to suggest the same arrangements as for overseeing internation Orders which transcend diocesan and national boundaries? Which work? There are some superb Js about ,there are some publicly distinctly dodgy and public with it. Universities?
    Trent was for trent’s time, perhaps a ship can be too tight and war ready, but there are alternatives to letting it all hang out whilst the vessel is leaking.

  8. Warren says:

    Mr. Voris, being a dutiful son of the Church, will most likely defer to the authority of the archbishop. Perhaps that sense of deference is what the Archdiocese is counting on. In other words, the Archdiocese has created a teachable moment. The Archdiocese will likely allow Mr. Voris’ apostolate to endure because, if he’s truly compliant, he can simply issue a notice stating what he knows to be true, i.e., that he understands who the legitimate authority in the Church is, and all will be good. By contrast, those who are less than compliant will be exposed for who and what they really are. The ACC and CFC are not likely to pay any heed to the directive; perhaps this is a backhanded compliment to Mr. Voris. I’m thinking that Mr. Voris will give the Archbishop some leverage against the real troublemakers like the American Catholic Council and Catholics for a Free Choice.

  9. thickmick says:

    I don’t really think they know who they’re messing with. Voris lives for this kinda fight…always with charity, young Mike, always with Charity…lol.

  10. Supertradmum says:

    Let us start with the list of Catholic hospitals, colleges, universities, and publications which consistently hold positions, sponsor clubs, or have teachers who are (among things on this list) blatantly anti-Catholic in LGTB stands, anti-life, pro-socialist, pro-communist, liberal liturgies in disobedience, contraceptives in the infirmaries, pro-women priests:

    Georgetown University,
    University of Notre Dame
    Briar Cliff University
    St Ambrose University, (among other things a prominent witch teaching women theologians)
    Loras College, Dubuque
    Loyola New Orleans
    Loyola Chicago
    Loyola Massachusetts
    Boston College
    Holy Cross College
    College of St.Benedict/St.John’s Minnesota
    St. Mary’s Winona
    Rockhurst University
    Creighton University
    Fordham
    College of St. Rose, Albany
    Marist College, NY
    Mt. St. Mary’s NY
    and at least 90 more. If you need a beginning website, here is one, just on the LGTB issues being not in alliance with Rome: http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/get-involved/online-petitions/catholic-colleges-with-pro-homosexual-clubs-2011.html#Iowa

    This is out and out persecution of a man who loves the Truth and is good at what he does. He is loved in many other countries, including Great Britain and Malta. What did he do to ruffle the feathers of someone in the Chancery? Shall we add his name to the list of the silenced: Fr. Frank Pavone, Fr. Michael Rodriguez, Fr. Altier (who criticized Virtus with some of the same criticisms I and others have had) and so on. This type of thing points to a snake in the grass, and we know who that is…

  11. Cristero asks: Didn’t the American “Catholic” Council have its meeting in Detroit this past June?

    Yes, the ACC had it’s conference in June at Cobo Hall. The archbishop is not going to send an army of Swiss Guards to block the doors. However, +Vigneron went out of his way to tell Catholics, and clerics, to stay away from the ACC. He endorsed the Call to Holiness which held a well-attended counter conference.

    http://www.aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/ACC.htm

    Could more be done to curb dissidence in Detroit? I believe so. But a statement and effort like the one above on the ACC, which even Mr. Voris lauded, would have been unthinkable prior to +Vigneron. I think there was an audible gasp heard coming from the various quarters of the archdiocese when that first statement came out because area Catholics had become completely apathetic after decades of dissidents doing whatever they wanted, unchecked.

    There are still things happening that I don’t understand like the imfamous Elephants in the Living Room – a group of clerics and lay people who openly dissent on the usual teachings and who meet at Our Lady of Fatima in Oak Park. Why is this group permitted to meet on Church property? (I don’t want to add a second link lest my comment end up in moderation, so google that name and Catholic – their website will pop right up on top).

    If there was ever a reason to disavow a group even though it does not have “Catholic” in the name this is one of them. I think it is thought that these are older priests and lay people and the biological solution will take care of it. However, if even one person is led astray by these wolves in sheep clothing at that parish, it’s one too many.

  12. Joeski5651 says:

    If anyone listens to Michael Voris on a regular basis this isnt a surprise. Confronting a church for posting a Happy Holidays sign and giving the phone number of the parish to complain about it would get anyones’feathers ruffled. But He is present to the Catholic Church as a watchdog. and why not.

  13. Looking closer at the “Elephants” meeting minutes, it seems they are dwindling, unless the minutes just aren’t being posted. Last meeting appears to have been in March 2011.

    Here is the live link. http://www.elephantsinthelivingroom.com/

  14. Praying4Mercy says:

    There is much we do not know about this situation. There are many blogs out there that disparage Voris as another Church “rock star” and have concerns about that status. Such is always a concern; hence, prayers for any more-or-less public figure in the Church are needed that pride and ambition do not simply lead to his fall. I surely do hope that calling on Mr. Voris to get permission or change the name would give his bishop and possibly others firmer ground to stand on regarding organizations and public figures identified as “Catholic” who proclaim ideas against Church teaching. At the same time, unfortunately, a concern can also be raised that this is possibly politically motivated rather than sincerely pastoral, as it is clear that there are those in the Church, lay or clergy, who would indeed like to silence him or perhaps limit or control his activity. Hopefully, he will respond to the bishop’s request ASAP. At the same time, the issue only brings up still the larger one of the catechetical nightmare that exists in the Church and its outcome. Michael Voris’ organization exists because there is and has been such a weakening of our understanding of the faith and a concomitant weakening in hierarchical response to “Catholics” and “Catholic” organizations in the public square who go against Magisterial teaching. That issue must be addressed and in so doing given the current state of affairs I would expect to see greater and greater splits within the Church and greater and greater affronts from without. We are in a situation of too little too late. We are weak and the world knows it. Pray.

  15. Iowander says:

    I seem to remember a story recently about Real Catholic TV getting into some legal trouble over their nonprofit status or something like that. Maybe the Archdiocese is covering itself so it doesn’t get dragged down in Voris’ legal issues.

  16. Cathy says:

    I have to wonder if this has to do with the authorized usage of “Catholic” Campaign for Human Development and publicly questioning the usage of funds.

  17. disco says:

    He’s going after Voris because one of Detroit’s big donors hates him. That’s my guess. I suppose he could just ask them to let him use the name catholic. Where is Catholics for Choice located? Perhaps we could send their bishop a friendly letter citing canon 216.

  18. skull kid says:

    This is all a bit silly. Nobody has the copyright on the word Catholic. By all means the Bishop can say that RCTV has no authority to be doing what they are doing and do not represent the official Catholic Church, but this is not like Apple, nobody has a monopoly on the word Catholic. It’s universal, right!

  19. Bthompson says:

    A tad unfortunate, but it is within the bishop’s right to govern the use of the Church’s ethos and name. If these people are his subjects, they must submit to the law. Yes there are many groups that should but cannot, or do but should not use the name Catholic and one might talk to his own bishop about that (they are smart guys, but human and not omniscient); as for this, the successor to the apostles has made his decision, and his subjects are bound to abide by it (or take recourse to Rome if it violates Universal Law).

  20. dominic1955 says:

    I would rather that some of the dissident rags would get this kind of treatment (like NCR, U.S. Catholic, America, etc.) because it seems everything that they spew is at least offensive to pious ears.

    That said, I really don’t mind that they clamped down on Voris because I think he’s a bit of a blowhard and seems to see some things far too black and white. I really didn’t like how he went after the KofC. If the bishops aren’t going to excommunicate pro-abortion politians, how are we supposed to basically “excommunicate” them from the Knights?

  21. Jack Regan says:

    I completely agree with those who say that if Voris is being hit with this then many other should too (though I’m not necessarily agreeing with the examples given above) – being Catholic should mean something quite definite, and the Bishops have a duty to safeguard this.

    I have my issues with Michael Voris though. I agree with some of the specific issues he raises, and I admire his passion and his clear media abilities (something the Church needs a whole lot of) but I can’t get over his frequent lack of charity. Charity isn’t just a nice story to tell kids. It matters. Okay, so Jesus turned over tables, and this gives us license to go a little nuts in *extreme* cases, but it only goes so far. To cite just one example of many, Voris makes up nicknames for those he doesn’t like. Nothing Jesus did mandates that. That’s just pure spite.

    Three or four years ago the Catholic internet was seriously vicious and nasty. These days it’s great to see it changing for the better. Blogs regulate their comments far more tightly, and those who publish prime content can sense which way the Catholic web is moving and are starting to realise that nasty is getting left behind. The result is that what is starting to emerge (thanks to excellent blogs like Fr. Z’s) is a Catholic web in which decent dialogues can take place. Michael Voris could learn a lot from this.

    As for the statement in question, if Voris is a faithful Catholic then he will submit to the properly appointed authorities. When Padre Pio was forbidden from celebrating Mass publicly etc, he strongly believed the decision to be wrong, but he felt a duty to obey the legitimate authorities and to patiently trust in God. Let’s see if Voris will do the same…

  22. David Homoney says:

    Sadly, for the AoD the are not the competent authority here. While the studio is in Ferndale, MI rctv is based out of a differing Diocese. AoD’s statement means essentially nothing.

    @dominic1955 – does God see things so grey? The Knights should kick out those who do not defend Church teaching. So much for being “knights” that defend the faith. Instead you hide behind the weak willed defense of “the bishops did not do anything about it”. “The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” ~ St. Athanasius

  23. Jack Regan says:

    Are you sure, David…? both St. Michael’s Media and RCTV on their websites give their address as being Ferndale, MI.

  24. Jack Regan says:

    In any case, the Bishop has the right to step in on anything happening in his diocese that assumes the name Catholic. So, if RCTV is filming their stuff in his diocese, he has a right to say no.

    N.B. The Michigan State records also has the company registered in Ferndale http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/dt_llc.asp?id_nbr=B13368&name_entity=REAL%20CATHOLIC%20TV

  25. hylander1986 says:

    Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Arcbp. Vigneron, as orthodox as he is, would have called for such a statement to be made regarding Michael Voris. He is a voice of orthodoxy and reason, so… It will be interesting to see how this plays out and what Michael Voris himself will find out from the Archdiocese.

  26. spock says:

    So I guess CatholicMatch.com, Catholic to the Max, St. Louis Catholic.com, California Catholic Daily, etc. etc. all have issues as well I suppose.

    And to the point above about the “Righties” getting hammered 10 times as often as the “Lefties.” The reality is, (in my opinion), on balance, the “Lefties” are doing much more “social worky” kind of stuff in the world than the “Righties” and if you really want to change that then we have to engage in that more as well, without compromising our “Righti-ness” :)

    Peace,

  27. jse says:

    Once again, the tolerant liberals show how genuinely tolerant they really are.

    Dare I say it? Our Lord needs more Catholic men willing to defend His Bride like Michael Voris does.
    Let’s hear it for REAL men, REAL Catholics. Enough of the wimpy excuses for masculinity already.

    There, I’ve said it.

  28. RichR says:

    In the end, who do you want on your side?

  29. MarylandBill says:

    Just a thought, but perhaps the Archdiocese of Detroit is doing this as but the first of a broader campaign. I would point out that I have frequently heard it said by priests (and I think Bishops too, but my memory is kind of fuzzy) that “Catholics” for Choice is not a Catholic organization. Likewise, I would like to see some other groups like hospitals, universities and Catholic Newspapers made more accountable. Perhaps however the Archdiocese is working from the assumption that starting with someone more conservative will give them more credibility if they start coming down other dissenting Catholic organizations in the Archdiocese?

  30. dominic1955 says:

    David,

    Thanks for kind of making my point. Voris’ response was similarly simple-minded in that I don’t think he even begins to understand how the KofC works. Sure, it would be great if from the Pope on down, all Catholic authorities started slinging anathemas and interdicts and just completely cleaning house but it just isn’t that simple. If we had that perfect Church of the Elect (or at least a Hierarchy of the Elect) this would happen, but that is not the way it is or ever has been. Chest beating and grand-standing about what a group should do without being in any sort of position to actually do something is rather easy and scores you some cheap points in the eyes of people who think that this kind of gauche muckraking does a valuable service.

    While I do agree with a number of things he says, as has been said previously, I do not agree with the way he often does so-especially since its public. His style appeals to the unwashed plebs of a neo-Con or Traddy bent who think Christopher West is a profound theologian or that Jesus handed out copied of the’62 MR at the Last Supper. These people want cheap, sleazy, concrete answers to problems that need nuance and distinction.

    He has an STD, he should be able to bring up the level of discourse a notch while still making the message appealing to a general audience.

  31. RichR says:

    I think I should clarify: it really isn’t about taking sides, but rather: those on the right tend to desire a Church true to its constitution, mission, and dogma. They would take a bullet for a faithful priest/bishop/Pope.

    I don’t want to sound like I’m judging the hierarchy. It’s just hard to understand the times.

  32. Jackie L says:

    The “Elephants” in Detroit meet at more then just one church, looking at their webpage several are mentioned as meeting places. In a document released last month, the Archdiocesan Pastoral Council, suggested naming a building after Bishop Gumbleton, how many Bishop’s have done more to undermine the Catholic faith?

  33. catholicmidwest says:

    Wait. They didn’t go after the American Catholic Council which is in the same archdiocese, but they have a problem with Michael Voris. Hmm. [Ummm... I think they did. The Archbishop properly used strong language about that event last summer and forbade all priests of the Archdiocese to attend.]

    Maybe Michael Voris should rename his outfit something like “Real Roman” or something like that, followed immediately by “Formerly Real Catholic.” And then make this story well known. And get an answer as to why he had to change his name and American Catholic Council didn’t. And while he’s at it, get an answer why no one has a boycott on any of the other prominent outfits using the name Catholic, and I can think of several very high profile money-making outfits of this type who use the name to pass with ordinary Catholics. Some of those outfits include retreat houses and groups blatantly involved in non-Catholic activities.

  34. catholicmidwest says:

    And how about all the dissidents who actually WORK for the archdiocese????

  35. Dr. K says:

    The Archbishop shows his true colors.

  36. Jack Regan says:

    From what I know of this Archbishop he’s definitely no liberal. This is an in-house battle on the right.

  37. MarylandBill says:

    I understand a lot of people might be upset that the Archdiocese of Detroit has stated that Voris is using Catholic in their name without permission, but I do find it kind of silly how many people are complaining that the there is not a similar crackdown on other groups. Some like the American Catholic Council and Catholics for Choice are groups that actively dissent from the Church. Pointing out that they don’t have permission to use the word Catholic would be like pointing out to an invading army that they don’t have your permission to use your home; they might not, but it is going to have zero impact on whether or not they actually use it.

    As for the Catholic Hospitals and Universities that do have permission but misuse that permission, that is really a different matter (and one I hope that more bishops address). While their actions might be wrong, their identification as Catholic is at least canonically legal.

  38. tealady24 says:

    I agree with Supertradmum. You can add Georgian Court University to that list; my alma mater, a beautiful college, but very liberal, and I worry.

    C’mon Michael, you were born for a fight like this! You don’t have that name for nothing! This is just so typical! Stay with Jesus persecuted; you can’t go wrong.

  39. ChrisWhittle says:

    What a shame. Michael Voris founded Real Catholic TV because most “Catholic” media outlets do not proclaim the Truth and Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. I listen to him every other day and he explains the faith in an every day layman’s style. This is not good if the archbishop is trying to exile the station out of his archdiocese; I’m sure another diocese will let him set up shop somewhere else (a tradition friendly diocese). Besides, the Boston Archdiocese owns what I call “Fake” Catholic TV because most of their programming is not in line with the Magisterium of the Church.

  40. BarefootPilgrim says:

    Fast and pray like a Catholic, and let the Holy Spirit bring forth abundant fruit from this.

  41. Joseph-Mary says:

    I have to wonder if this comes from the Archbishop. You know we are always seeing things like the “vatican” says thus and so or approves this or that and it may be from some lower eschelon person’s own opinion. The Archdiocese of Detroit (remember how the Servant of God Fr. John Hardon was treated) has not been a hotbed of orthodoxy shall we say. They have been busy closing schools and parishes for a while now because of the loss of souls and not just because they all moved to the burbs or left the state.

    The CCHD and the terrible, awful “Distorter” have much more cause to be rallied against than Voris. The truth hurts….But liberalism is still championed.

  42. amenamen says:

    Nominalism or Realism

    I can think of a few Catholic authors, periodicals and websites that do not use the word “Catholic” in their name, but who are unquestionably Catholic and loyal to the Magisterium. What matters is not the title, but … what does the site “really say.”

    I do not think Mr. Voris will lose any influence or customers if he comes up with another title for his RealCatholicTV. In Detroit, the “Lions”, the “Tigers” and the “Pistons” are taken. How about something like RealPapist?

  43. tcreek says:

    Voris preaches “Real Catholic” truth as far as the videos I have watched.
    I don’t see the the same coming from many bishops. Those “Shepherds” care more about the tender sensibilities of their scattered flocks than their responsibility for “reining them in”.

  44. For the sake of truth, let’s be clear about something before untruths are spread about the internet with regards to the American Catholic Council event in Detroit.

    This is my second time posting the link, and Father Z has also mentioned in “catholicmidwest’s” combox similarly:

    ARCHBISHOP VIGNERON ADDRESSED the AMERICAN CATHOLIC COUNCIL event DETROIT.

    He practically used an ecclesial “full metal jacket” on the ACC event in Detroit, well beyond stating that it wasn’t affiliated with the Catholic Church. Many communications came out – I blogged on them as they were flowing. Look at the FAQ pages in that link that were issued to clear the air of the confusion being caused by the ACC dissident umbrella group. There is only so much a bishop can do against a dissident group.

  45. kiwiinamerica says:

    I gotta laugh. Remember all that hot air we’re always fed about how Vatican II was all about “empowering” the laity and getting the man in the pew “involved”??

    Well they’ve got it. Voris is taking Vatican II seriously and is spreading his lay Catholic apostolate to the people and guess what? The hierarchy doesn’t like it! Too funny!!!

    B-b-b-b-ut your Excellency…..remember the “spirit (small “s”) of Vatican II?? LOL!!

    I guess we file this under “be careful what you wish for”.

  46. Also, people say they want the a public communication put out on the National “Catholic” Reporter (NCR).

    The National Catholic Reporter was reportedly condemned for heresy back in 1968 by Bishop Charles H. Helmsing

    I have been wanting to mail that to Bishop Finn and ask if he can affirm or negate authenticity of this report. If it is authentic, I would ask him to issue his own statement in regards to this and display it prominently on the diocesan website.

    Too many bishops are turning a blind eye to the fact that the NC Reporter is peddling dissidency on everything from women’s ordination to the homosexual lifestyle, and everything in between. These bishops (and I am not talking about Bp Gumbleton who has a regular column there), will allow themselves to be interviewed for the paper and submit columns of their own to be printed there.

    Are they aware of this reported condemnation of the National Catholic Reporter for it’s heretical material going back to 1968?

    I think it’s time to put a spot light on this issue. Until US bishops start issuing statements on their websites about these blatant sources of dissent, it will be difficult for disaffected Catholics to take seriously something like a statement about RCTV.

    +Vigneron hit the ACC hard and they merely had an event here in Detroit. They are located elsewhere. The National Catholic Reporter is not in Detroit. People should write to Bishop Finn about that report and ask him to make the position of the diocese clear on their website. Ditto for every other news source, school, or hospital that carries a Catholic name and is blatantly promoting dissidence.

    We really shouldn’t have to ask bishops to protect the faithful from these things. I really think they believe the biological solultion is going to eventually wipe these dissenting rags out of existence. However, who then is responsible for uncatechized soul who is confused about a matter of faith and ends up at a place like the National Catholic Reporter thinking that their lifestyle or choices are “ok” because of what they read there.

    How long will the reticence continue?

    Pray for bishops. Some may pay a heavy price for souls lost because there was too much concern over self-esteem of those who openly dissent and not enough concern with the souls of those they were misleading.

  47. Jack Regan says:

    Interestingly, this isn’t the first time Voris has falen foul of the hierarchy. The PCL went to lengths at World Youth Day to point out that his catechesis session wasn’t a sanctioned, official event – and they hardly ever do this, even though a lot of what’s on offer usually isn’t official. He’s also fallen foul of other US diocees who have asked their parishes not to host him.

    This would all seem to suggest that Abp Vigneron isn’t exactly a lone voice here and for that reason, I doubt he would be welcomed with open arms in another diocese. If +Vigneron were someone considered to be way ‘out there’ and the Holy See had previously been approving, then maybe. But as things stand I really doubt it.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, it will be interesting to see how Voris responds. Either he changes the name, or he is in open opposition to the Church. For a guy who claims to be the safeguard of orthodoxy, he can hardly go on in open opposition to a successor of the apostles.

    I’m no lefty (contrary to what a lot of people on line think) but I have my issues with Voris. Among many others, he has never publicly retracted his statement that the Novus Ordo Mass was a Masonic conspiracy to destroy Catholic faith.

  48. The point is not “everybody jump on Voris.” The point is that, because most good Catholics nowadays have all the complete formation of a person raised by wolves or kept in a closet all their lives, most Catholics are totally unaware that we’re supposed to ask the Ordinary if we use the word Catholic in our organization names.

    So now we know. That’s a good thing.

    This also makes sense of some questions I was asked years ago about my podcast slogan/description. I’m sorry I thought the person was just trolling me, now. (Well, I still think they were trolling me, but even trolls can troll on correct grounds.)

  49. Supertradmum says:

    I am sorry if I offend anyone, but the same people, (probably not the Archbishop), chancery minions, who do not like Voris, would have hated John the Baptist, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Micah, Amos, Hosea, even Moses. And, perhaps Christ. I am so tired of hearing about the lack of charity. Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity called some people “brood of vipers”. We are in the Age of Nice, not the Age of Truth and Salvation.

    If one is a prophet, one is hated by somebody who does not like the Truth when it is lacking in one’s backyard. Oh, yes, didn’t Christ say something about that? “And He said: Amen I say to you, that no prophet is accepted in his own country” Luke 4:24 Douay-Rheims.

  50. Barbarossa says:

    Simple solution. Find a bishop who likes you. Incorporate in that location. Suddenly, you are in good standing with the Church and can keep using the name. The great thing about an internet business is that all you need is a mailing address to determine which see you are operating in. They don’t actually have to move to still be docile to the Church.

  51. Dismas says:

    Although I admire and applaud Michael Voris’ apparent love and zeal for our Church, his methods and rhetoric concern me. I personally find many of the things he says and the way he presents them as potentially harmful, hurtful, divisive and alienating for our Church and for many otherwise faithful Catholics. I realize everyone is entitled to their opinions, but Michael takes his personal likes and dislikes to a whole new level on a very public scale that I’m not at all sure, in the end, is good for our Church or it’s Catholic identity.

  52. jse says:

    I wonder how many Catholic parishes and organizations today seize the opportunity to have Our Lord give the sermon at one of their Masses or a conference talk. And I wonder how many Catholic organizations today would refuse to allow Jesus Christ that very opportunity. “He’s too controversial!” “Remember how He upset the tables of the money changers at the Temple? We can’t risk something like that happening here.” “He’s divisive!” “Why look at the hurtful names He called them: ‘whitened sepulchres,’ ‘brood of vipers’ even!” “He’ll alienate so many…why, the collection baskets will suffer.”

    Truth is controversial, and that is why Christ was crucified…by His own.

    You’re in very good company, Michael Voris.

  53. Gabriel Austin says:

    The Church always insists on specifics. When you go to confession, you don’t make general statements: “I was a bad boy”. You tell what it was you stole, what lie you told, and so on.
    So also should it be in the criticisms of Mr. Voris. It is not whether he is a meanie; or whether he upsets someone in a chancery. What specifically did he do wrong? This is a great virtue of the Inquisition: who said what? when? where? That attitude came down us and is inscribed in our legal procedures.
    The Archdiocese of Detroit gave us Bishop Gumbleton; I imagine that he left a legacy of dissent in the chancery. What are the words issued under the name of the current Archbishop? What are the specific points of the complaint?

  54. Supertradmum says:

    jse,
    Good comment in same category as mine above…as you know, we are in the Age of Nice. If you have not read Lord of the World, I highly recommend it. Catholics are made to look controversial by the very fact that they are against the secular, sinful world. This will get worse. We shall be marginalized in every possible way for being “different” and “intolerant”. Christ was crucified for the Truth which made some people uncomfortable. That He is Perfect made it worse, as some people also hate goodness as well as truth. The Prophets were not perfect, except for St. John the Baptist, who was cleansed of Original Sin in the Womb by Christ through Mary. The others were ordinary, holy men, who had to take chances, be bold, and even, oh dear, insult people in order to communicate God’s Word. Sadly, people want prophets to stay in the Old Testament, as part of edifying stories, and not be real people who walk the earth and make videos.

  55. Pingback: Voris too Catholic for Detroit? « A Blog for Dallas Area Catholics

  56. Random Friar says:

    I find Mr. Voris to be a son of Shimei, the Benjaminite. Like King David, I just have to shake my head sometimes and say, “He’s right, so leave him alone. I -and we- well deserve this.”

  57. capebretoner says:

    There must be an available P.O. Box in the Lincoln Nebraska area……………..

  58. Christine111 says:

    “he has never publicly retracted his statement that the Novus Ordo Mass was a Masonic conspiracy to destroy Catholic faith.”

    That’s because he never said that. Please get your facts straight before accusing Mr. Voris. As to the WYD event, he responded to it adequately here:

    http://www.colleenhammond.com/catholics/voris-official-response-to-wyds-unapproval/

    And the Scranton, PA talk you allude to involved some liberal feminist who complained to the diocese when she found out Voris was going to talk there; the diocese retracted its invitation supposedly over “insensitive” remarks Voris had made of other faiths (the “insensitive” remarks in all likelihood comprised of his calling protestantism heresy). The diocese only has authority to prevent a speaker from using the diocese’s property to speak, so the people who invited him moved the venue off diocesan property to a hotel. There was no disobedience whatsoever.

    You sound like you personally don’t like Voris–that’s fine. But don’t go around insinuating things about him that are just false. Not very Christian behavior.

  59. David Homoney says:

    @dominic1955 – I just judge the weak-kneed approach by its fruits over the ~50 years and that has been a near destruction of the Church in the West. The Pope has said as much. If we take such a soft approach with the new evangelization then we are doomed to fail. The faith wasn’t spread buy those unwilling to proclaim the truth, but by those willing to die proclaiming the truth. There are many reasons the truth of the faith isn’t boldly proclaimed, but I fear none of them will be good on judgement day. God will not be grey. Grey is lukewarm and you can read in Revelation what Christ Jesus says about the lukewarm. Was Peter so soft? Paul? Was James when in Chapter 2 he calls people ignoramus? Where the saints? Theresa of Avila? Sadly, many will find out the hard way at judgement that things really are far more black and white then they think.

    As to RCTV and the AoD, they are owned by a gentlemen in Indiana, in the Diocese of Ft. Wayne, therefore under the authority of that Ordinary. St. Michael’s Media is in the Archdiocese of Detroit, but the don’t have Catholic in the name. They are differing entities. This has been told to me personally.

  60. kiwiinamerica says:

    This is actually very easy to solve for Michael Voris.

    He can simply change the order of words and call his ministry “TV for Real Catholics”, or “Real TV for Catholics”. Anything would do as long as he doesn’t use the word “Catholic” as an adjective and imply that it’s “Catholic TV”.

  61. Supertradmum says:

    “But what went you out to see? a prophet? yea I tell you, and more than a prophet.” Matthew 11:9

    St. John the Baptist was thus praised by Christ. People did not want to see a real prophet. They also wanted a god in their own image and likeness instead of the True God, the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

    God bless those who choose to seize the time we have left and preach the Gospel, even imperfectly.

  62. david andrew says:

    I would like to point out that The Michigan Catholic, the official Archdiocesan newspaper, is no longer under the direct control of the Archdiocese, yet retains the protection of it, and is responsible for publishing and promoting some of the most destructive, heterodox nonsense I’ve ever read, including front-page stories about MLK Jr. Day Masses held at the cathedral, complete with liturgical dancers. They also have featured multiple articles on a particular musician in the Archdiocese who has composed music entirely antithetical to the express desires of the Holy See in matters of sacred music. Yet, H.E. remains remarkably silent.

    I find it both insulting and offensive that the official “rag” bears the name “Catholic (TM)”, enjoys the protection of the AoD, that parishes and individuals pay good money to purchase the paper, and yet it gets to trowel out such stupid propaganda with nary a word of rebuke from the highest offices of the chancery.

  63. Indulgentiam says:

    i have watched Mr. Voris’ many programs for a little over a year and i have never heard him use anything less than civil language. Is it strong language? yes. Is he passionate in his defense of the Church? absolutely. He is as entitled to his passion and personality as anyone else. Standing in front of a camera does not divest one of their personality. in my opinion the problem may be that we are simply not used to seeing a strong man being a strong man. Women, and i am one, have coiffed, dressed and criticized masculine men into near extinction. So when we see a man being a man, a masculine man, these days the usual reaction is: “he is just so, so,so…oh i don’t know strong in his convictions. can’t he be more like neutral. doesn’t he know he is hurting peoples feelings with all those divisive words (read FACTS) i read something from Fr. Z as a matter of fact that explains this, at least to me, really well.
    Liturgical-Political Manifesto—-”In the final analysis we heard various expressions of “can’t we all just get along” even as we were being told to “shut up”. In an era when emotion trumps reason, facts are just plain mean. The progressivist side knows they will not win by arguments. They win by projecting the image of deep-caring, of brow-furrowed nuance, of struggling with those hard decisions. Remember: If you will have first “struggled” you are thereafter justified in anything you chose.”
    As for trying to defend the actions of the KofC who allow abortion supporters in their ranks, well, Pope St. Felix III said it best. “Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin
    than to encourage them.” -Pope St. Felix III

  64. Sword40 says:

    I’m a firm Voris supporter. He at least speaks the truth.

  65. jaymcnally says:

    Jack Regan, you stated that Archbishop Vigneron “is no liberal.”

    What is the basis of that statement?

  66. Christine111 says:

    Michael Voris has responded here:

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archdiocese-of-detroit-asks-michael-voris-to-stop-using-the-name-catholic

    In short, RCTV is owned by Marc Brammer, and is under the jurisdiction of the Ft. Wayne-South Bend diocese. Brammer told LifeSiteNews, “I own RealCatholicTV.com. I contracted with Michael Voris to produce video content for that website and I pay him for it. It is a business relationship between me and Michael. If all of a sudden now there’s this tussle over the use of the word ‘Catholic’ I’ll deal with it through competent ecclesial authority.”

    Voris notes that his conflicts with the Archdiocese of Detroit has more to do with its staffers than with the Archbishop. Previous to his work for RealCatholicTV, Voris launched St. Michael’s Media and had various offers to air programs he produced, talks he was to give and television shows he was to be featured on canceled through the efforts of staff at the Archdiocese. “They have waged a quiet war since the very first time we set foot into the public realm,” he said.

    In response to the press release demand from the Archdiocese of Detroit, Voris told LifeSiteNews, “I don’t have ownership over the name of the organization. It’s not my organization. The headquarters are outside of the diocese.” He concluded, “It’s the wrong person, and the wrong outfit asking the wrong person the wrong question.”

  67. jaymcnally says:

    David Andrew,

    The Michigan Catholic has always been published by the archbishop of Detroit. The bio of Archbishop Vigneron on the aod website lists him as publisher and the spokesman for the diocese is editor of the paper. It’s offices are in the aod headquarters building.

  68. danandsis says:

    If many of our Catholic Bishops in the US would do their sworn duty to defend the principle doctrines of our faith we wouldn’t need Michael Voris’s to fill the void

  69. JohnE says:

    RealCatholicTV features talks and interviews by several bishops and clergy. This statement by the archdiocese, intended or not, will be taken by many to be disapproval and disagreement with RealCatholicTV, even though disagreements have not been cited. What are the implications for the clergy who have associated themselves with this “unauthorized” entity?

  70. THREEHEARTS says:

    The American Bishops dod not like Mother Angelica’s set up either. Their hubris demands complete and utter control

  71. carmen 42 says:

    I knew this was going to happen. Why do we persecute those you preach the truth like michael but let others who do their best to bring the church down do so with no consequences. Michael needs prayers let us who believe in him pray for him.

  72. taxing5ij5 says:

    Sure, let’s make 2011 a trifecta to silence the voice of orthodoxy. Pavone, Corapi and now Voris. Who is left?

  73. jse says:

    To Supertradmum:

    About your comment to me. I just looked at what you wrote. Amazing how similar our thoughts and expressions are. You know what they say about great minds, don’t you? ;)

    Kuddos to you for listing/unmasking all the allegedly Catholic universities and organizations. Our Lord told us to cast a light on the darkness.

    And VERY glad to read the LifeSiteNews article setting the record straight by writing truth and presenting facts. It certainly will leave the aod spokesman with more than a little egg on his face.

  74. Tantum Ergo says:

    John 18:23 “If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?

  75. Jim Dorchak says:

    What is the inside scoop on this? Who at the Arch Diocese is out for Mr. Voris? This whole thing just rings of stupidity! It reminds me of past times in SC when we “Catholic” home school groups recieved letters telling us that we could not call ourselves Catholic! Insult to injury is that it makes you wonder if these gents at the chancery have too much time on their hands?
    For me, I went out an bought a membership to “Real Catholic TV”, since I knew that they MUST be doing somthing right, after all is the diocese of detroit growing? and on the humor side of things what would happen if Rome told the Diocese of Detroit that they could not use Catholic in their name?

  76. isnowhere says:

    I have noted a few “I don’t like Voris because he is: [mean,uncharitable,name caller]” Take your pick.

    Get over it.

    If you think he is mean, spend some time practicing kindness on your own. If you think he is uncharitable, spend some time studying and meditating on Charity. If you think he is a name caller… so what? There is a time and a place for invective.

    “You brood of vipers” – St. John the Baptist

    “At that very hour some Pharisees came, and said to him, “Get away from here, for Herod wants to kill you.” And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, `Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.” – Jesus.

    ” But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’” – God, on the lips of the second Person.

    “You hypocrite(s)!” – Jesus, several times.

    “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!” – St. Paul

    “Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” – St. Paul

    Lets not forget the Fathers of our faith and some of their quotes.

  77. Supertradmum says:

    isnowhere,

    Bravo, you are not an advocate of the Age of Nice. We need more honesty. Happy Christmas.

  78. Christine111 says:

    “in my opinion the problem may be that we are simply not used to seeing a strong man being a strong man.”

    Amen. Indulgentiam, I like your style!

    Yours, too, Supertradmum!

    Merry Christmas!

  79. Supertradmum says:

    Christine111,

    Many years ago, almost 40, I heard an excellent sermon on the emasculation of American men-how Satan undermined in the 50s and 60s the idea of being a real man, a leader, and this was before radical feminism in the 80s. It was a prophetic speech, in which the priest said that the way to weaken the Church was to weaken male psychology and the male role in society. Those who cannot deal with a Voris or a Pavone, or a Rodriguez fall into the category of those men who fear confrontation and fear to seem unpopular instead of strong. In my opinion, we need more crusaders, (such a bad and politically incorrect word), more male leaders in the Church who are not afraid, for example, to demand the Latin Mass, or to be head of their families. God bless all the real men. Can you imagine what some American bishops would do with a David, or a Joshua? I shall be glad to see what the new movie on the Maccabees will be like-perhaps a bit of teaching too late. The laity so not need to throw stones at the weak clergy, but only look at themselves and change.

  80. Jack Regan says:

    jaymcnally,

    I confess to not having a lot of knowledge of the Abp. but he seems to have the respect of blogs like this one and he seems not to be shy in tackling the extreme left.

  81. JSArt867 says:

    How does the Archdiocese have any authority over Vorris & corp.?

  82. PostCatholic says:

    I think they’d do better to insist he remove the word “Real” from his organization. Voris seems to have a good grasp on Catholicism, but not so much on reality.

  83. Jack Regan says:

    According to LifeSiteNews, RCTV have responded initially, saying that they will make a full statement in the new year. They also point out that Voris doesn’t actually own RealCatholicTV.com and that the owner resides in South Bend, Indiana (I think) whose Bishop has made no such statements.

    I’m no Canon Lawyer, but I gather that the Bishop us responsible for any Catholic activity within his diocese.

    I run a website which was created in one diocese, is now run from another diocese, and the servers are located in a third. Indeed, at present I am on holiday in a fourth and have done a fair bit of work on the site. Though my site’s nowhere near as big as wdtprs et al, it has a significant reach and I would imagine that any of those four Bishops concerned could have claimed jurisdiction over it at one time or another.

    In other words, since most of the work for RCTV is done in Detroit, I strongly suspect that RCTV may not be able to keep +Vigneron at bay just because the domain is technically registered elsewhere.

    In any case, all +Vigneron has to do is ask his brother Bishop in Indiana to add his weight to the ruling and that will be that. And Bishops don’t tend to refuse one another.

  84. robtbrown says:

    1. Voris has an STB (Bachelor) not an STD (Doctorate).

    2. I find it ironic that this is originating from the Archdiocese that gave us Bp Gumbleton.

    3. It is best not to oversimplify what is in fact a complex legal problem, both in civil and ecclesiastical law, of where jurisdiction falls because this is a matter of virtual reality. Perhaps the only jurisdiction would be at the site of the server (which might be anywhere).

    4. I find it interesting that the archbishop’s name is not mentioned.

  85. robtbrown says:

    Jack Regan says:

    I’m no Canon Lawyer, but I gather that the Bishop us responsible for any Catholic activity within his diocese.

    The question is whether this is within his archdiocese.

  86. ontariofather says:

    Jack Regan;

    I am no Canon lawyer, but this is a very interesting test case of the lay apostolate.

    Back in the 1980′s Cardinal Hume placed numerous restrictions on what members of Opus Dei could do in his diocese. He didn’t kick them out, but he attempted to regularize something, that in fact, bishops can’t regularize, the individual apostolate of each member of the lay faithful. The memory of this situation comes to my mind in all this. Priests need faculties from bishops to hear confessions and to administer the sacraments. But the laity in teaching the faith, do not need nor require permission from their bishop to undertake the work of spreading the faith. To even consider this, is repulsive. The faithful are not the long arm of the clergy, their organic identity does not require any official title or God forbid ‘commissioning’.
    The laity are not extremities of the hierarchy. They have their own rights and duties that flow from the sacrament of baptism. The laity does not need permission from a bishop to do apostolate. Such an idea is loaded with the rank odour of clericalism.
    The use of the title of Catholic was, I think an innocent effort on the part of the lay people involved, since that is what they were simply doing … simply being Catholic.
    The question that needs clarification is why has the archdiocese refused to have any contact with Michael Voris or his media partner? Why has there been no meeting with Michael and the archbishop? What is it in their content that is contrary to the faith?
    I am sure that once a meeting is arranged, all parties will be satisfied with clarification. But the present situation is intolerable. How can the laity excercise their idenity if, those responsible refuse to have any meaningful face to face contact with them?

  87. Interestingly, the assumed name “Real Catholic TV” is registered in Indiana by a corporation in Indiana owned by Mr. Brammer. It is also registered in the state of Michigan by a limited liability company owned by Mr. Voris. So the question is when speaking of “Real Catholic TV”, which one are we talking about. There are two separate legal entities that apparently are working together.

  88. jaymcnally says:

    Anyone who would call Vigneron “conservative” should define the term. No real conservative I know thinks the archdiocese is conservative. Vigneron supports the group Dignity and supports insane conferences of Gumbleton. Anout two months ago pne was held at a two parishes and Vigneron named Auxiliary Bishop Byrne as the appkesman for the event. i emailed Byrne to learn why a dissenting group was being promoted in parishes and he did not reapond.

    What Vigneron may say or write is very different than the decisions he often makes, which put him squarely opposed to conservatiives and the prol-life movement.

  89. jaymcnally says:

    Sorry for the typos above. Writing on an iPhone with a tiny keyboard and in a car.

  90. robtbrown says:

    Patrick Thornton,

    There is another question here. Canon 216 says that the name catholic cannot be used except by the consent of the ecclesiastical authorities. Education in the Great Books, however, is often referred to as catholic because it concerns questions about man and reality that have spanned the centuries. Does that mean that a school like Thomas Aquinas College cannot describe its education as catholic without the consent of the bishop?

    NB: In the editio typica of the relevant canon, the word is written catholicum not Catholicum.

  91. danno2281 says:

    I am sure that the director of communications for the diocese has, as it were, a fine microphone. Mr. Voris has a much larger and finer one. The director may learn an old lesson, viz. Never mess with the man with the microphone

  92. Jack Regan says:

    The burning question here is one of when a Bishop has jurisdiction. There is clearly a lot happening in Indiana and a lot in Illinois. I would guess that a Bishop has jurisdiction over anything happening in his diocese, even if it’s an offshoot of a wider operation that’s based elsewhere.

    Is there a Canon lawyer who wants to weigh in on this?

    In the 1990s Bp. Alexander of Clifton Diocese in England kicked the Neo Cats out of his see. He wasn’t banning them altogether as they were a movement which went far beyond his remit, but he was essentially telling them what they could and couldn’t do on his turf.

    Point being, I strongly suspect that +Vigneron has the same rights, even if RCTV is owned by someone elsewhere, registered elsewhere or whatever…

  93. Christine111 says:

    “Never mess with the man with the microphone.”

    Ha!

  94. Father et al,

    By Achbp V’s standard, I could be next! I’m feverishly searching for a synonym for Catholic….maybe ‘kneeling member of the Universal Church’? I think his Grace has overstepped his authority in trying to control the word “Catholic”. I see it as a matter of truth in labeling. If someone stumbles on to my blog by mistake, they need only to look up at the blog name…..and if it doesn’t strike a chord….move on!!

  95. Supertradmum says:

    Jack Regan,

    I would have kicked the Neo-Cats out of the Clifton Diocese in the 1990s. The then Cardinal Ratizinger had to get them to come into line in a variety of areas and it only since the mid-2000s that the group has dropped some heretical beliefs, and dodgy practices. This purging and disciplining of the group is public knowledge on the Net. Now, most of them and their parishes are in good standing with Rome. One, again, cannot compare cases, as most are very individual in source and content. And, Bishops do have a right to control what happens in their dioceses. However, the Voris case is different and needs more elucidation.