Still the “Catholic Church and Babylon” thing? Really?

From The Catholic League:

JEFFRESS SAYS SATAN RULES CATHOLICISM

Last Friday, Rev. Robert Jeffress, the Dallas pastor who introduced Gov. Rick Perry at the Values Voter Summit, spoke derisively about the Mormon faith of Mitt Romney, making the case that “Mormonism is a cult.” Two days later, he chided Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as “false religions.”

Last year, Rev. Jeffress said the Roman Catholic Church was the outgrowth of a “corruption” called the “Babylonian mystery.” He continued, “Much of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn’t come from God’s word. It comes from that cult-like pagan religion. Isn’t that the genius of Satan?”

Catholic League president Bill Donohue offered these remarks today:

Where did they find this guy? When theological differences are demonized by the faithful of any religion—never mind by a clergyman—it makes a mockery of their own religion. Rev. Jeffress is a poster boy for hatred, not Christianity.

Nice!

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29 Responses to Still the “Catholic Church and Babylon” thing? Really?

  1. Jack Hughes says:

    The worrying thing is that this guy is actually quite articulate, he was on BBC’s Newsnight last night and actually sounded quite reasonable.

  2. New Sister says:

    I have ascribed the denial of Christ’s Crucifixion, as taught in Islam, to the work of evil. (building off Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen’s lectures in which he states that ‘hatred of the Cross’ is a sign of the demonic.) Does this make a mockery of my own religion?

  3. anilwang says:

    What he says about Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism is true and in agreement with Catholic Tradition. While there is truth in all these religions, these religions are false. It’s not hatred to state what Christianity teaches.

    As for the “Babylonian mystery”, as a sola scriptura guy, he really needs to go back to the Bible and state where specifically it says that the Catholic faith is pagan. He can’t. Not a single Bible passage even comes close to stating it, just some ad-hoc interpretation that could easily apply to the EU, Protestantism, or secularism or something yet to be revealed. It’s just his tradition of man (which Jesus condemned) which keeps this interpretation alive.

    And if all branches of Christianity before the Reformation (Eastern/Oriental/Copts/Catholicism) are pagan and those “pagan” Churches which put together the Bible, preserved it, and had the “cheek” to “add” books and “modify parts of Daniel and Esther”, then the “real” Bible is lost to history and we have no idea what it actually said or even if any of it’s New Testament books are authentic.

    I strongly disagree with Bill Donohue on this. This guy does need to be called to account. Not because he is a bigot, but because he’s either an idiot or just plain misinformed and is in desperate need of correction. Calling someone a bigot only gets you into a childish “Is not!” “Is too!” shouting match and accomplishes nothing. We are to “give a reason for the hope that is in us” and this is one perfect occasion where we can do so.

  4. Sid says:

    A Baptist Friend of mine, who happens to be a pastor in a local church, was telling me over dinner (“lunch” to you Yankees) that the largest Baptist group has split in the last four decades. The Southern Baptist Convention was taken over by Fundamentalists, who immediately launched a witch hunt. Many Baptist churches (parishes) have withdrawn from the Southern Baptist Convention, having formed the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. Judging from my friend, the CBF is much friendlier to Catholics. Is The Rev. Jeffress SBC? Or even a more extreme group?

  5. Legisperitus says:

    Logically, if you take Catholicism and Protestantism, they can’t both be authentic Christianity. One of them has to be a diabolical counterfeit.

    And the devil’s pattern (hatred of the Incarnation) can be seen in a religion that rejects the material elements of Christianity, such as the visible Church, the living Magisterium, good works, sacramentals, the Real Presence, the Sacraments of unction, and Confession to a flesh-and-blood priest.

  6. Rachel says:

    That kind of stuff from Jeffress doesn’t bother me, probably because I grew up with such teaching, and I know that the people who told us that Catholicism is wrong and dangerous were only doing what they thought was their duty, and certainly didn’t take any pleasure in it.

    I don’t know if Jeffress is like the fine Protestants who taught me, but at least I admire any willingness to teach unpopular stuff at the risk of one’s reputation– even though in this case he’s ignorant and wrong. There are plenty of Protestant sources saying similar stuff, so he probably thought he was on safe, approved ground talking about this invented Babylon thing for which there’s no shred of direct historical evidence.

    Jeffress and many other Protestants desperately need more knowledge of church history, knowledge that’s not filtered through the ignorance of the writers who made this stuff up. He could also use a direct challenge to his self-contradictory belief in sola scriptura. I wish Donohue had really engaged Jeffress’ statement and charitably urged him to learn more. And I strongly dislike the answer he chose to give, accusing him of “hate” just because he disagrees. Now that’s a tactic of Satan, an ad hominem attack that shuts down the conversation. Haven’t we had enough of that idiocy aimed at our own Church? If that’s how the Catholic League always behaves, I don’t think it’s doing us any good. It sounds like just another professional grievance organization. (I hope that’s not true and that there’s a lot more good stuff to the Catholic League than shows here.)

  7. “Much of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn’t come from God’s word.”

    Can we not admit that Satan has all too much influence everywhere in the world today, on many within the Church as well as without it? And perhaps that much we see in the Church today comes more from man than from God?

  8. Dr. Eric says:

    You’re forgetting, Mr. Edwards, that the Rev. Jeffress is referring to the Sacraments, the Holy Father, the Blessed Mother, etc. In that regard he is highly mistaken.

  9. TomG says:

    anilwang: I agree almost entirely with your comment; however, Islam is one of the three great monotheistic religions. Therefore, it cannot be grouped with Mormonism and Hinduism (both polytheistic) and Buddhism (non-theistic). I believe our late Holy Father taught that God, G-d and Allah are the same.

  10. smad0142 says:

    And I believe the current Holy Father disagrees with what Bl. John Paul II said about Islam worshipping the true God. After all if Muslims claim that they worship the god who appeared to Muhammed, it can not be the God of Judaism and Chrisitianity because the true God would not have appeared to Muhammed to start a new religion.

  11. anilwang says:

    Legisperitus, from the Catholic perspective, you are correct, but from the mainline Protestant perspective, not necessarily so.

    See this link for an explanation from this scholarly Catholic convert site:
    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/10/robert-george-and-russell-moore-on-the-state-of-evangelicalism/

    Essentially, due to the threat of liberalism and secularism, mainline Protestants have realized that what separates liberal Protestants and conservative Protestants is much greater than what separates faithful Catholics and faithful Protestants. Such Protestants are more likely to see much of Catholicism as having “quaint non-essential practices that have no bearing on salvation” as long as you accept Jesus Christ as lord. They don’t see the sacraments as any more shocking than Pentecostal’s speaking in tongues or Protestant hip-hop services. Such Protestants are impressed and excited by Pope Benedict XVI’s deep love of St. Augustine.

  12. jarhead462 says:

    TomG- I respectfully disagree. Islam was invented by Mohammed out of whole cloth to further his agenda. The connection to Abraham was made on purpose to lend legitamacy to what is essentially an oppressive system of power and control.

    Semper Fi!

  13. St. Peter Canisius says:

    My wife and I left the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod several months ago. One reason that prompted my leaving were the pervasive hate comments and dispersions about the Catholic Church I had to endure. I counted over 15 errors the pastor made in the Reformation (Deformation Day) sermon regarding the Catholic Church. And here comes Luther to fix it all! Just another megalomaniac was he. Pastor’s wife once said in a class that she wondered if we still have confession.

    For me it was just another prompting to become Catholic. My wife lost her job there and felt she had been discriminated against, and she has become Southern Baptist. I have kindly tried to show her the Truth of my church, but I can’t even get her to read Catholic information sources. I think this is a chronic problem with people such as Jeffress. I doubt he ever read any of our documents, and depends on the same centuries-old Baptist propaganda. I pray that they will learn the Truth and come home as I did.

  14. RichR says:

    I personally grow tired of the “hate” label. I just got finished watching the movie “2012″ last night, and it is filled with all the PC relativism that you’d expect. I find it refreshing to hear someone voice their convictions, even though I think it is grossly wrong and needs to be engaged head on.

    Here’s my problem: the man is not wanting to engage in debate. He is simply wanting to instill fear amongst his followers that will overshadow the lack of substance to his arguments. If he were to bring these points out in a scholarly, gentlemanly debate, he’d look like a fool. His criticisms of the Church should be engaged on this level. Do not poke fun at him, but rather engage his points with patience and persistence.

    I’d love to see someone like Tim Staples issue a public challenge to debate the guy.

  15. Banjo pickin girl says:

    St. Peter Canisius, most of this stuff is not “hundreds of years” old but dates to 1910-1915, the publication of The Fundamentals. Some of it came even later, in the ’20′s and ’30′s.

  16. Banjo pickin girl says:

    I have found a lot of the Catholic League’s statements generate more heat than light.

  17. heway says:

    Note that Jeffress comments were regarding a political candidate. therefore I regarded his comments as political. I disagree respectfully, but the man is not a moron, he educated. Both Rick Santorum and Bill Bennett gave responses better than the Catholic League. I believe they referred to John Kennedy’s election and the questions raised. In this country such remarks are labeled bigotry.

  18. Centristian says:

    I have to say I find myself surprised that Mitt Romney’s religion is actually considered a newsworthy issue by the enlightened media of the year 2011. I was surprised that it was an issue the last time around, in fact; even more so this time around. And I’m really surprised that his religion has been deemed okay to mock by the media. Wow. Do we get to return to the cultural sensibilities of 1960 every time there’s a presidential election in which a non-WASP runs for president?

    As if it weren’t strange enough that the secular media have attempted to introduce a dialogue about Mitt Romney’s religion as though it were in any way relevant to the GOP presidential primary campaign, it gets even better when hosts of political talk shows and pundits cast themselves in the role of theologians, puzzling over whether or not the LDS Church can truly be indentified as Christian (as if it actually matters to them whether or not Mitt Romney and other Mormons are authentically Christian).

    “Mormonism is a cult”. Is it? According to what the mind typically conjures up when we use that word, I’d be hard-pressed to so label the LDS Church. We aren’t talking the Branch Davidian or the Palmarian Catholic Church, here. Needless to say I do not believe in the teachings of the LDS Church but let’s face it, it’s not as though Romney is drinking Kool-Aid at a fortified compound run by some kook wearing a tinfoil hat. He’s a Mormon, for heaven’s sake. The LDS Church, in this country, is pretty much mainstream, and I know that my own experiences with Mormons have always been positive. I perceive them, generally, as good, patriotic, law-abiding citizens. In fact, if I lived in a community populated by Mormons, I wouldn’t bother locking my doors at night.

    At any rate, “Rev.” Jeffress, I’m an American voter, like you, and from my point of view the Church that you belong to and that Rick Perry belongs to is, unlike the “outgrowth of a corruption” that I belong to, just a man-made lie, an ape of the true Christian Church, and from my point of view you are a minister of that lie, of that ape, and not a minister of Jesus Christ. And while, in my opinion, all of that disqualifies you from the use of the style “The Rev.”, it would not disqualify Rick Perry from the use of the style “The Hon.” any more than Mitt Romney’s false religion would disqualify him from the use of the same. So what’s your point?

  19. Mike Morrow says:

    With respect to the LDS church, there’s still the little matter of September 11….1857….at Mountain Meadow. That’s the Brigham Young ordered massacre of a large pioneer train from Arkansas. Though it was nothing compared o the massive slaughters that European Catholics and Protestants have visited on each other over the centuries, some of us Arkansans still keep it in memory.

  20. Jack Orlando says:

    Let’s be honest about ourselves. One can find among us Catholics those who say equally denigrating, demonizing, and even defamatory remarks about Protestants and Jews. And one doesn’t have to go very far to find those remarks.

    It seems to me that if one really wanted to win over people from another faith to one’s own, one would set such an example of charity — of insuperable charity, of inseparable charity, of singular charity, even of insatiable charity — that all who came in contact with such a one would wonder “What church does he go to? Why, I think I’ll check this church out!” Said differently, the example of Saint Damien of Molokai and Sophie Scholl, a Catholic and a Protestant respectively, have won over more people to their respective faiths than Tomás de Torquemada and Oliver Cromwell.

    I ask the commenter at 7:11 to reflect on this. And those Catholics screaming bloody murder about Holy Father going to Assisi.

    I thank anilwang at 9:25 for his comments.

  21. Athanasius says:

    Rather fitting since Rick Perry went to Bilderburg and is the real whore of Babylon (New World Order/banking cabal’s) candidate to turn us into a post-industrial nation.

  22. James Joseph says:

    Well… you can’t knock the guy for being convicted. I suppose one could say that zeal for the Master’s House consumes him….. only the preacher-man doesn’t realise that the Master’s House is the Blessed Vigin Mary.

    Since it is politcal season and I am from somewhat rural Utah: It is worth noting that Gov. Romney is part of the Mormon blood-hierarchy, the blood descendent of the Mormon prophet. He has quite a standing in Mormon circles. And, let us not forget that the theory goes “The U.S. government and the Mormon church will some day be one when the Constitution is hanging by a thread”, and the announcments I’ve heard on the quick-commercials on the radio driving Sunday morning 35-miles to get to holy Mass, “Reminding all LDS, never pray to Jesus. That is damnable.” (or something like that)

  23. Legisperitus says:

    Mr. Orlando:

    Thank you for your thoughts, and I shall indeed reflect upon your words. My intent was not to be uncharitable, but merely to point out that the Father of Lies does play a role in inspiring false doctrines.

  24. Jennyfire says:

    Jack Orlando, if some of us make uncharitable remarks about Protestants from time to time, it’s usually because of people like this Rev. Jeffress who give their faith a bad name. It can be more difficult to speak kindly of Protestants for former Protestants turned Catholic like me (we have some baggage I suppose, take that into consideration when you hear a Catholic speak badly of Protestantism), but I try my hardest to be fair. I’m not a huge fan of the Catholic League anyway. I don’t see the efficaciousness of pointing and crying “anti-Catholic!” all the time. I come from a very uneducated, low class background and the Lord was kind enough to allow me to see through the silliness of my teenage born-again, anti-establishment faith rather quickly, within two years or so. Try to understand how difficult it is for many Catholics to comprehend how a Protestant who speaks like Rev. Jeffress even deserves any intellectual respect whatsoever.

  25. Jennyfire says:

    Oh, btw, I wasn’t trying to single you out. I thought you brought up a good reminder for all of us.

  26. Jennyfire says:

    Rev. Jeffress, thanks but I’ll take a Mormon candidate over a Baptist any day, unless said Baptist is endorsed by Ron Paul, tee hee. Mormons love having babies yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  27. Supertradmum says:

    POTUS is a practicing atheist, although saying he is a Christian, and the church in Chicago he attended for a long time believes that the Blacks are the Chosen People of God, not the Jews–look at the website. He was voted in…I think our Constitution allows, sadly, for cults, heresies, whatever, and remember, many of the Founding Fathers were Masons and Deists. Only the respectable rise of Christianity in the latter part of the 19th century, a la Victorian England and Protestant America, emphasized main-stream Protestantism as a necessity for becoming elected. I think in England, for example, that Christopher Hollis, the historian, and father of Bishop Crispian Hollis of Portsmouth, was the first elected Catholic MP in Great Britain. We have a long way to go concerning the proper view of candidate’s religious views. The question should be “Is he or she pro-life and pro-religious freedom in America, and, lastly, proud to be an American?”

  28. New Sister says:

    I think every Momon I have known passes the gates of Supertradmum’s last question — they are pro-life, pro-religious freedom, patriotic… and pro-marriage. I consider them allies and, despite the theological chasm between our faiths, prefer the company of good Mormons over bad Catholics – ANY day.

  29. Larry R. says:

    Someone above (Sid) asked if First Baptist – Dallas and Jeffress are in the Southern Baptist Convention. Seeing as the former Rev. Criswell of First Baptist Dallas (pastor for over 50 years) led to the hardcore conservative takeover of the SBC, I think you could answer an emphatic ‘YES!’ to that question.

    There are a growing number of evangelicals who view faithful Catholics as slightly nutty sorts who do a bunch of extra things not required for salvation, I agree.