Voris video: where “action” is in Catholic communities. UPDATED with follow-up video!

ORIGINAL POST: 28 March 2247 GMT:

Michael Voris has a new video about the use of the “Traditional Latin Mass”, the Extraordinary Form. After his travelogue, start paying attention about about 1:45.

He speaks about the young people who are attending the Extraordinary Form. This is obvious to most of us (who aren’t liberals… cough).

Mr. Voris hits the point I am constantly harping about: Catholic identity!


UPDATE 29 March 138 GMT:

There is a follow up video posted today.  They’ve been busy!

Voris takes up the theme he dealt with last time: Catholic identity and who is winning the battle over our identity.  (Think: young people who are traditional)

He gets into the issues of masculine v. feminized liturgy and the difference between the older (spirit of Vatican II) and newer generations (JP 2 era).

Surprise! Mr. Voris has not cooled off his vocabulary.


If you are not on offense, you are on defense.


On the very heels of my posting the update, I read on the blog of my friend Fr. Blake,who cites the first of the videos above:

I don’t always but here I agree with Michael Vorris.

Trad Mass produces vocations, two of the younger men who serve it are off this summer to try their vocations, sadly not with our diocese. Do pray for them.
Trad Mass attracts and produces parents dedicated to passing on the faith to their children, not that we have that many young families here.
Trad Mass inspires young people to deepen their prayer life and to seek to understand the theology and history of the Church.
Trad Mass appeals to men, especially young men.
Trad Mass is evangelical.

You decide.

While you are deciding, I will add that liberals demand that you deny the evidence of your senses and deny common sense.  The older Mass is growing slowly in the numbers of places and priests who say it.   It sure seems like a high number of vocations come from these traditional communities.


About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in "How To..." - Practical Notes, Liturgy Science Theatre 3000, New Evangelization, Our Catholic Identity, SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM, The Drill, The future and our choices. Bookmark the permalink.


  1. BillyHW says:

    Any Fr. Guarnizo news, Fr. Z?

  2. Does that have anything to do with this entry? o{];¬)

  3. HyacinthClare says:

    PREACH ON, BROTHER! Love Michael Voris. LOVE what Michael Voris loves, too.

  4. Bea says:

    Hey, that’s what we CATHOLICS knew all along.
    I’m e-mailing this to my pastor.
    I told him long ago that here lies the future of the Church.
    “You think so, Bea?” he said in an incredulous manner.
    I don’t remember my response but I think it was “Wait and see” [few more people to tell him that as well and form a “stable group” to which he could respond according to Summorum Pontificum.]

    By the way, Fr. Z , I love your “sign-off” symbol: o{]:¬)
    Mind if I copy it for my pastor and other priests? Not © is it? [I would mind that very much. I have used that for a long time as my signature icon.]

  5. Sissy says:

    Our RCIA director attended a conference recently; she came back “shocked” about what she had heard there. She said that everyone was talking about the fact that young people “want all that traditional stuff”. She was perplexed. I just sat quietly and smiled.

  6. Christine111 says:

    Thanks for this post! Great Vortex!

  7. onearmsteve says:

    This link has the group Mr Voris mentioned (the youth gorup sorry I’m having a brain cramp right now on the name) & just a fyi my brother serves most of Fr Lee’s Masses at the FSSP seminary (bro is in his 1st yr in seminary in Denton, NE) we in South Carolina only have 4 Masses in the whole state that is in the Traditional form. A bud of ours converted b/c of it then he turned my bro on (now he is in seminary after seeing the Mass maybe 3 times) & my first was 2 Christmases ago in a gym & I thought it was the greatest thing I’ve ever seen. Trying to get it in the midlands of South Carolina now. Sorry for ramble haha http://youtu.be/6LpaRyznjAE

  8. mamajen says:

    When the priest at my former parish first introduced the EF, people came from miles to attend. Many of them were young people from area colleges. It was quite an event.

    I’ve always believed that the people promoting “folk” or other weird masses to young people are not only projecting, but entirely missing the mark. It’s like parents trying to seem “cool”. Young people don’t want that.

  9. shane says:

    What a fantastic job Michael Voris has: he gets to travel the world, he gets to criticize bishops, he gets to share his opinions to thousands of fans…and he gets PAID for doing so.

    That’s my idea of work ;)

  10. EXCHIEF says:

    Hopefully our Bishop elect, when he becomes Bishop 6 weeks from now, will lift the suppression of the TLM imposed (illicitly of course, but non the less effective based upon fear of reprisal) by the current Diocesan “Administrator” and will boot from their prestigious positions several Priests (one the Vicar) who have openly spoken out against the TLM and, thus, the will of the Holy Father.

  11. Bea says:

    Fr. Z
    [few more people to tell him that as well and form a “stable group” to which he could respond according to Summorum Pontificum.]

    am sending you a private e-mail
    Too much sensitive information about our problems here.
    We have lost hope, while we have this bishop

    [If you are experiencing resistance, create a lot of correspondence. Write petitions with lost of signatures and keep copies of responses and get the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” in the loop. PUSH and PUSH HARD.]

  12. Elizabeth says:

    This was a really refreshing video. Everything he says is, of course, true. One little thing that particularly pleased me was that throughout the entire segment, not once did he refer to it (the Mass) as the “Extraordinary Form”. Eek, I do hate that term. Yes, yes,that’s what the Holy Father called it. But still, it was great to hear Voris consistently refer to the Traditional Latin Mass (period.)! Great video.

  13. JKnott says:

    Michael Voris is welcomed in many places.
    Poor, poor Detroit.

  14. chantgirl says:

    Yes, come join us!!! The incense is burning, the schola is chanting, the people are praying (and procreating like crazy), the boys are serving, and the vestments are flowing, and some of us actually smile and have a sense of humor.Bishops, even if you dislike the EF, look at how many children sit in the pews every week here versus the OF. It’s hard to argue with the numbers. For those of you who have been silently suffering through poor homilies, liturgies, and music, take a chance on a Latin Mass near you. I finally made the switch from a OF parish to an EF only parish when I fell in love with the Mass of the Ages, heard chant and polyphony actually sung during Mass and not just at concerts, and I looked at the beautiful old church that seemed worthy of the money needed to maintain it. It made more sense to me to contribute to a beautiful old church that represented the best of Catholic art and had beautiful liturgies than to stay and donate money to keep up a church that looked like a living room. If enough people vote with their feet, maybe more Bishops will support the EF and more priests will be inspired to say it.

  15. benedetta says:

    Although perhaps some may read it and weep I have to say that Mr. Voris is totally right. I appreciate that he knows what real Catholics are saying, on the ground, in real time, due to his constant traveling around the world and going out to meet people. He is certainly not transmitting from the ivory tower or a rarefied world. And, his experience attending Mass in the Extraordinary Form and meeting the people who appreciate it meshes with my own, very much so.

  16. acardnal says:

    But Elizabeth, the Traditional Latin Mass is extraordinary, most extraordinary, in the best sense of the word. May God be praised.

  17. Bob B. says:

    For years, I taught altar serving as part of my 7th and 8th grade curriculum. A new principal was installed by the diocese (not the traditional way) and she quashed that and the Church Latin that I taught them (I also demonstrated the difference between the Latin and “new” Masses). The kids loved learning new things and would always ask for more. No more Angelus, Regina Coeli or Morning Offering, no Passion Play this year, etc, etc, (you get the idea). I complained to the pastor and he informed me that I was “conservative!” This is what many of us encounter as we try to inculcate Catholicism into our students.

  18. Bea says:

    I commiserate with you. We are in the same position, in this case it being the bishop himself, against the TLM. God only knows how many times I have wept because we are deprived of this beautiful Mass. “The Most Beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven” to quote Bishop Sheen.
    May your new bishop here the cries of the Faithful.
    I’ll pray for your diocese and a new-found hope.

  19. (I hope you’ll forgive a fairly wordy response. For the ‘too long, didn’t read’ crowd, skip to the last paragraph for main point.)

    Commentaries of this nature leave me extraordinarily dis-enheartened. Michael is certainly correct in the trend of modern generations towards orthodoxy and traditional practice of the faith. But what he also seems to append to this truism is that the Ordinary Form is a lost cause, a hold-over that will be best set aside in favor of the Extraordinary Form. I know, I know: he doesn’t say this at any point, but it is the theme that seems to be running behind most of his liturgical commentary. Its not a theme that inspires love of the Mass as much as discontent in folks who are invested in either Form.

    One of the problems here in the much-villified west coast (be merciful to us in your thoughts, comments and especially your prayers) is that this subtext is carried alongside propositions to introduce the Extraordinary Form – probably because of the extreme abuses of the Ordinary Form that are so easily found here. Unfortunately, this is terrifically counter-productive because bitter degradation of the Mass is equally unattractive whether it comes from the left or the right and whether it is directed toward the Extraordinary or Ordinary Forms.

    Bishops and priests of good will are motivated best by requests that come from a joyful, committed and peaceful faith – which seems by definition to require avoidance of founding our future hopes on frustrations of the past.

  20. DomesticaEcclesia says:

    I’ve only been to an EF of the Mass twice.

    The first just so happened to be a solemn high Mass on Christ the King. It was beautiful. I loved it.

    The second was a low Mass on the Christmas vigil. I was a little disappointed. I had practiced my “et cum spiritu tuo” but I couldn’t even get it out before the priest had moved on.

    I like the fact that I don’t need to be vocally doing something so much during the EF but it also felt like, if I don’t even have the chance to say anything, it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m there or not. [Which, given the talk-show how attitude of many priests, could be refreshing.]

    As I said, I’ve only been to two. In general I really like the EF, but I don’t know that it is exactly my ideal, if that makes sense.

  21. Dismas says:

    The storm clouds break. Beams of light fall from heaven. I may have even heard angels sing at one point? And to think, not one person seems to have been harmed, beaten or scourged during the making of this video? I hope he continues along this path, eventually I may even re-subscribe.

  22. discerningguy says:

    What a great, true video.

  23. Chrysologus says:

    Isn’t Michael Voris, like, crazy? According to this CNA story (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/world-youth-day-organizers-say-michael-voris-catechesis-not-approved/) he thinks only faithful Catholics should be allowed to vote, for instance.

  24. Marion Ancilla Mariae says:

    Another commenter recounts, “A new principal was installed by the diocese . . . and she quashed . . . the Church Latin that I taught them . . . No more Angelus, Regina Coeli or Morning Offering, no Passion Play this year. . . I complained to the pastor and he informed me that I was ‘conservative!’”

    Heh. If a pastor informed me that I was “conservative”, I would rock back on my heels just and tad, and reply (in the clipped tones of Major Charles Emerson Winchester on M*A*S*H) ” ‘ank-yawr! Veri-kind-v’you-t’say so!”

    It is too bad that in liberal dioceses, there isn’t such a thing as “Catacomb Night for Youth” where young people may on a certain evening each week gather in the home of a faithful Catholic family, where with low lights, some candles lit, they may learn and study the Catechism, pray the beautiful old prayers, and sing the glorious old hymns, . . . all in a slightly atmospheric environment, faintly redolent of something rather hush-hush . . .

  25. Maltese says:

    The new mass is a meal, the old the Sacrifice.

    For more, see The Problem of the Liturgical Reform.

    The Vortex is good to focus on this; because how we pray influences what we believe.

  26. pm125 says:

    Bea, could you add one more diocese to that prayer, please?
    Yup – ‘demographics and migration’ truly verified by state u study.
    Provisions to preserve religious art for the inspiration of growing illiterate and lost populations?
    I don’t know. People used to learn more about their faith from stained glass window pictures, statues, and paintings. Rosary societies held together by few elderly. Candy wrappers and gum left in pews. ‘Rustbelt’ etc. … populated by at least two unchurched or disenchanted generations of former Catholics lost in and part of an increasingly secularized culture that makes me wonder if the dark ages are back. Seeing it happening is cause for heavy heart and sorrow. Frustration.
    Sometimes, I pray the Holy Spirit would blow through like windy weather for renewal or conversion of hearts so maintaining status quo would become bringing people back. The Extraordinary Form of Mass should be what that prayer is for. Haven’t had the experience since the winds of change blew out the incense and much else.

  27. Centristian says:

    Marion Ancilla Mariae said: “It is too bad that […] there isn’t such a thing as “Catacomb Night for Youth” where young people may on a certain evening each week gather in the home of a faithful Catholic family, where with low lights, some candles lit, they may learn and study the Catechism, pray the beautiful old prayers, and sing the glorious old hymns, . . . all in a slightly atmospheric environment, faintly redolent of something rather hush-hush . . .”

    I think you’ve just created a beautiful ministry. You ought to explore that idea. I wouldn’t necessarily limit it to youth, however. Add a priest to say Mass for the group and change the venue from a home to a parish chapel (or a private chapel) and suddenly you’ve got something that reminds me of a much better version of something else. Call it…the “Retrocatechumenal Way”. ;^)

  28. chantgirl says:

    Bea, I sympathize with you. We had an EF Mass at my old parish until last year when we got a new pastor, who said it would only continue on a trial basis. Since we ONLY had between 30-60 people on any given Sunday attend the Mass, it was determined that we were not a stable group, and the Mass cancelled. I suspect that the order to stop the Mass came from downtown, as the Pastor had spent good money to buy the books for the EF Mass and seemed genuinely disappointed when it stopped. Our “unstable” group was very, very upset. We were all friends, had a catechism study before Mass, and stayed well after Mass to talk and encourage one another. Most of us have now scattered to Oratories. I mentioned to the pastor that I was under the impression that the Pope wanted the EF Mass in regular parishes to have an impact upon the OF, and I asked how would the average Catholic be exposed to the EF if it was not in ordinary parishes. His reply included something about stiff-necked people. Now, when this pastor says the OF Mass, he does the Mass parts in Latin, and he often does the Eucharistic prayer in Latin, and he has gone to all male servers. I guess he figured that if he wasn’t allowed to say the EF Mass that he would try to do what he could to transform the OF Mass. I still think that our rights as a stable group who were attached to the EF were violated by cancelling this Mass, and it certainly was not pastoral to ignore our spiritual desires.

  29. Sword40 says:

    A response to Fr. Mauer;
    Dear Fr.,
    You have a most beautiful church and a retired Catholic priest in your city that is looking for permission to celebrate the TLM. I would pray that you re-consider his request to find a time on a Sunday when we could have the old Mass. All he needs is your permission .

  30. Joseph-Mary says:

    I heard Michael last week in Denver. Only one priest attended the gathering and he was from the FSSP. It was a great talk on masculinity and the Church, by the way.

    I am now a premium subscriber to Real Catholic TV!

    We have every hope that a retiring priest who only offers the TLM will be moving to town shortly and one parish has offered to house him at their rectory and there will be daily and Sunday TLMs!!! I and others can hardly wait.

  31. St. Rafael says:

    The Novus Ordo Mass is on its last legs. The horrid missal will in 20 years; bite the dust, kick the bucket, hop off the twig, and give up the ghost.

    The problem is not abuses in the celebrating the missal, but that the missal itself is an abuse. Rorate ran two excerpts of an interview with Fr. Cekada, author of the widely praised book
    A Work of Human Hands. The definite book and scholarship on the liturgy and new Mass that has been written to date. Fr. Cekada also has a Youtube page for A Work of Human Hands.
    There are short 10-15 minute videos for each chapter of the book, in which he gives an overview about the content of the chapter.

    The only liturgical reform needed, is the abrogation of the Missal of Paul VI. Abrogate that dreadful missal. We need a new missal. The Missal of Benedict XVI, subito!

  32. ContraMundum says:

    @St. Rafael

    I knew liberals believe in the myth of “the next pope”. In their version, “the next pope” will reverse the churches teachings on contraception, abortion, homosexual activity, and women in the priesthood. They were shocked and horrified when Joseph Ratzinger was chosen to be pope. They will be shocked and horrified at the next election, too — and the one after that, and the one after that, and so on.

    The situation you describe is *not*, unlike the liberal vision, impossible. It *could* happen. It sounds somewhat similar, though, in its bold defiance of all evidence to the contrary. Benedict XVI has shown no interest in suppressing the Novus Ordo; for that matter, I don’t know of any cardinal who has shown such an interest. The SSPX bishops would be happy with it, but they don’t even have dioceses (at least not yet); aside from them, although there are some bishops who would accept this more happily than others, I don’t know of any bishops who are even putting the shoe on the other foot and making the EF the default form of liturgy and requiring groups to petition for the OF.

    Ugh. I wish that Paul VI had never revised the missal, if for no other reason than that if he hadn’t we could spend less time worrying about the missal and more time discussing more pressing problems. However, he *did* revise the missal, and that will have a lasting impact on the Latin Rite that will not be disappearing in a few decades.

  33. Hello Sword40,

    Unfortunately it is not due to lack of desire on either the retired priest’s part or my own that having the Extraordinary Form of the Mass at our parish is currently not feasible. I can’t go into greater detail in the public forum about why this is the case, but in light of my previous comment I want to be very clear that the current situation has nothing to do with the Extraordinary Form or the people pulling for it.

    I mean it when I say that I would be happy to explain to you – as I have to many (included said retired priest) – the reasons why that opportunity is not now. You and other interested parties have an open invitation to come by or give me a call.

    Not every priest who says ‘no’ is an enemy of the Extraordinary Form and I hope to prove a friend when there comes an opportunity that I can responsibly say ‘yes’.

  34. Warren says:

    This post is a ray of sunshine in an otherwise dismal week of bland liturgies and heterodox sermons.

    I love the OF (give us more Latin please!), but I’m inches away from leaving the OF behind only because those who celebrate it are missing the opportunity to draw nearer to the true design of the Mass.

    The EF and those promote it understand what the Mass is really about. I.e., it is not about us but about Jesus’ action in our midst. I love the OF because of the clarity of form and its saturation with Holy Scripture (when the Propers are chanted). Of course, the EF, too, is saturated with Scripture. However, I despise the ease with which priests and laity manipulate the OF to their own ends.

    I’m tired of fighting for chant and for attention to the rubrics. I’m tired of syrupy songs and loose play with the Liturgy. I’m frustrated with priests who, intentionally or carelessly introduce heresy via their sermons. I’m sick to death of improvisations by artless priests.

    I know that the unification of the OF and EF will not occur in my lifetime.

  35. Dismas says:

    There cannot be faith in the Holy Spirit if there is not faith in Christ, in his sacraments, in his Church. A man cannot act in accordance with his christian faith, cannot truly believe in the Holy Spirit, unless he loves the Church and trusts it. He cannot be a coherent Christian if he limits himself to pointing out the deficiencies and limitations of some who represent the Church, judging her from the outside, as though he were not her son.

    (Christ is passing by, 130)

  36. Tom Ryan says:

    Every thing he said is true and it will be a shock to those who don’t know it and like pouring salt in the wounds of those who do. For that reason, I sent it to everyone in my address book (except my traddie friends)

  37. EoinOBolguidhir says:

    Every word is true.


    I believe in publishing this is referred to as “log rolling.”

  38. Sword40 says:

    Thank you, Fr. Maurer. I’ll drop a letter in the mail to you. Perhaps we can meet some day.

  39. CMRose says:

    Instaurare omnia in Christo.

  40. St. Rafael says:


    I didn’t say that Pope Benedict was going to bring out a new missal, or that he even wants to bring out the Missal of Benedict XVI right now. I said we need the Missal of Benedict XVI. He should bring out a new missal. My guess is that he won’t do it. We need it subito.

    Pope Benedict actually would favor a different Mass. It would be some type of hybrid TLM/Novus Ordo Mass. A TLM hybrid with an expanded lectionary. This was exposed by The Tablet, who a couple of years ago, published a letter Cardinal Ratzinger had written in 2003, to Professor Heinz Lothar Barth at the University of Bonn, describing such a rite.
    I would not want or favor a hybrid Mass, but that is what is being discussed as reform by some conservatives in the Church.

  41. Bea says:

    pm125 and chantgirl, yes I’ll add your parish/diocese to my prayers along with EXCHIEF and our own diocese.
    May the winds that “blew out the incense” when the “windows were opened” to let in winds of change be replaced by a wind that fans the fire of zeal for our beloved Church and the Mass that lifts our hearts to God.
    Loved your analogy pm125

  42. pookiesmom says:

    Michael Voris describes our parish to a tee! And thank you Fr. Maurer–I know you are a friend of the EF. It truly is amazing, though, the opposition to the TLM. We are all praying that its availability will become more widespread. The Traditional Latin Mass truly is the “most beautiful thing this side of Heaven”.

  43. ContraMundum says:

    @St. Rafael

    OK. It looked like you were stating that the current missal positively *will* be suppressed within 20 years. I just don’t see anybody who might become Pope during that interval who has shown any sign of wanting to do that.

    You’re right about what Pope Benedict seems to wish was in the missal. He probably even believes that missal will inevitably be some kind of hybrid in one or two hundred years. On the other hand, he saw the problems that came from the abrupt change under Paul VI, and even the complaints and resistance to an accurate English translation. Popes are going to avoid dramatic changes as much as they possibly can for the remainder of this century at least.

  44. Darren says:

    Love Michael Voris!

    Regarding Bishop O’Connell’s appointment of Fr. Woodrow as ‘Liaison to the Diocese of Trenton Celebration of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form’, see this official website: http://www.latinmasstrenton.org/lmt/_top

    If you look in there, you’ll see that Fr. Woodrow was ordained in 2006, and the other two priests who are involved were ordained in 2011. We’ve got some good young priests working on this in Trenton.

    Based on this site, it looks like Ocean County (where I live) is the next place the diocese will establish a mass in the Extraordinary Form. I just wonder where it will be. (picturing the churches in the area… many of which are very modern, but not all). Can’t wait!

    I’m so happy our Bishop supports the Traditional Latin Mass.

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  46. teomatteo says:

    I wonder what the top 5 reasons for not wanting an EF mass at parishes?
    1) Too confusing for people to understand, they’ll get turned off and not return.
    2) Older folks fear the return of something that is maybe kinda bad as they sorta remember it.
    3) Competing ‘camps’ may form that could harden into long standing problems.
    4) Difficulty in setting the church up with altar, kneelers, etc. and costs.
    5) The whole altar girl/boy situation is possible issue.

  47. chantgirl says:

    teomatteo- I would suggest perhaps some priests fear some sort of retribution from some higher-ups, or being ostracized by their fellow priests. Some perhaps feel that they must be obedient to their bishop if he has discouraged them from saying the EF (even though the Holy Father gave priests themselves the authority to decide to say the EF in the Motu Proprio).

  48. irishgirl says:

    I met Michael Voris last year when he came to give a talk in Rome, NY (which he mentioned in the video-yay!). Due to an outside circumstance, I could only stay for the dinner, but not for the talk.
    I did get to talk to him briefly before dinner, though, when he was setting up his book / DVD table.
    When I told him that I couldn’t stay for the talk, he gave me two surprise ‘consolation gifts’: a book and DVD on ‘How Catholics Got The Bible’! I was so delighted, I gave him a hug and a kiss on his cheek (blush)!
    He’s absolutely ‘spot on’ in this video! And I like the shout-out he gave to you, Father Z…and using your ‘signature’, no less!

  49. Cricket says:

    I wholeheartedly affirm this with a brief anecdote. In our tiny Schola Gregoriana we have a very young man of no particular religious training or persuasion whatsoever–typical of the ultra-radical university town in which we live. He came for the music (he studies composition at the college level), but has hung in with us for the beauty of the Mass. It nourishes him like nothing else in his experience. More than anything else, I think the TLM will be an instrument of his conversion.

  50. tealady24 says:

    Latin masses are beautiful from beginning to end! We in northeast PA have a wonderful little group which is growing one person at a time, glad to say! So many people have commented that they hardly knew an EF mass even existed where it does, due to lack of broadcasting. So, we are getting the word out.

    Let’s pray for the EF to be included in every parish nationwide! Just one will do it.

  51. contrarian says:

    Since he obviously reads this blog, given his shout out to it in the vid posted, let me say to him: Mr. Voris, you rock the hiz-ouse.

    I guess what is interesting to me, among many things, is that from a simple psychological standpoint,what Voris talks about in this vid should all be a big ‘duh’ to everyone. Especially the point about vocations. But also about what it means to be a man. That is, we often lament the lack of men in the pews. But I frankly don’t understand how there are any men at all in the pews at your average NO silly, emasculated, banal parish on any given Sunday. We can only thank the Holy Spirit for any that are there. We certainly have no other reason for thinking they’d be there otherwise.

    Unfortunately and weirdly, this is all only blindingly obvious to everyone but those who run parish life at most parishes in the land. My reaction to watching this video was, ‘Well, yeah.’ I’m guessing that was most everyone’s response! It amazes me that the older liberal folks running parishes not only don’t see this, but don’t see it as obvious.

  52. DFWShook says:

    “deny the evidence of your senses” – That is very true. I remember when I used to be a Lector at a N.O. parish and they were short “Eucharistic Ministers” one Sunday. The “captain” asked if I could help out during Communion. I actually felt my soul tremble in horror and heard a loud “NO” from within. I politely said I hadn’t trained to be an “Eucharistic Minister” and turned her down.

  53. ndmom says:

    Our parish in northern Virginia has had a Sunday TLM for years, with full choir and all of the attendant reverence. Many people travel a considerable distance to attend. But most of the regular attendees are not living within parish boundaries, and, for that reason, do not attend daily Masses or otherwise participate in parish life. The parish is also known for its reverent, beautiful, and orthodox N.O. Masses, which the vast majority of parishioners choose to attend. These are unusually well-formed Catholics, many who are members of Opus Dei or regularly take advantage of the Work’s formation opportunities. They fill the pews for two daily Masses, keep the priests busy in the confessionals, and supply a steady stream of eager, well-prepared altar boys for the Masses and holy hours. But, given the choice between the TLM and the N.O., they are clearly voting with their feet for the latter. Perhaps they didn’t get the memo that the N.O. is on its last legs, or, more likely, those who insist that the TLM will replace it have never had the opportunity to assist at a reverent, properly-celebrated N.O.

  54. The Cobbler says:

    I have one quibble. The Novus Ordo (whether by that we mean the stylistic matter of how it usually turns out or any intrinsic matters that either affect that or that are issues in themselves) is not feminized so much as castrated. The feminine and the masculine need each other; without the feminine, the masculine has nothing to die for, and without the masculine, the feminine must face death alone instead of being the beauty it should be. In the Mass God does the dying for man — unless you’re the priest, you as part of humanity would really be taking the lady’s part in that bit of chivalry! The old Mass emphasized this, God dying for man, and thereby could strengthen both men and women in their respective masculinity and femininity–in their whole humanity for that matter. The new way doesn’t so much strengthen the feminine while leaving the masculine in the ditch; this is impossible. Rather, it drives out the masculine, the sacrificial; and by it the feminine loses its beauty even if it survives. Hence, I wouldn’t say these things have been feminized, but that they have been castrated, and lost what is truthful of both masculinity and femininity. Granted, the fact that the Mass is the Sacrifice of Christ no matter how badly we obscure it probably makes a difference in any case, but inasmuch as there is the phenomenon noted here about men and family being typically underemphasized in your typical NO parish… it’s not feminization, it’s castration.

    As an unrelated corroboration, I have to note that it’s always traditional-leaning parishes, whether TLM or NO-in-Latin-with-incense-chant-Communion-rail-and-maybe-ad-orientem, that have in my experience have had the best little luncheons after Mass where all the old people get together and talk, all the young people get together and talk — or arrange to get together later and actually do things — and everybody gets to meet anybody they wish. I would further note that this is true even in parishes where there are more old couples at the Mass itself than young (although the predominance of couples there also suggests something about the resilience of fidelity in the old way), and only after that would I note that any notion that the TLM is all about bitter reactionary bunker mentality can be disproven merely by staying for lunch after the TLM at a good old parish. (That’s not to say there are no bitter reactionaries with a bunker mentality, etc, or that they are disproportionately loud just like the extremists on the other side; it’s to say that they are not dominant, let alone exhaustive, of the traditionalist movement on the ground.) It is a rare find of a community that is vibrant in and of itself and yet open to newcomers, whereas most human communities are either relatively closed or else have little true internal identity to give the newcomers they deliberately try to funnel in. Of course, this is as humanity should be — we should be able to be better to our neighbor when we are first at peace among ourselves and our family.

    Typically I think Voris tends to preach to the choir — that is, to make good points that need to be made in a way that discourages those who actually need to hear these points from listening I wouldn’t say I’m a “critic”; “critics” disagree with him; only I’m not always sure how effectively the points are made for those who don’t already agree. While I’d hesitate to see focusing on positiveness as a solution to that sort of problem in general (assuming it is a problem — this is, after all, just my opinion), I think these couple of videos, focused on highlighting actual real-life experience of the good things happening in traditional communities, will likely be quite effective. (I also will admit that I don’t listen in all that often, so perhaps this is also a sign of a recalculated thrust in general and I’m unaware of it; if so, I would be glad to start collecting videos to pass on when I need somebody to make my point for me.) ;^)

    There was something else that crossed my mind as worth saying, but I have lost track of whatever it was; I may be back later, I may not… such is life!

  55. St. Rafael says:


    Why doesn’t the parish offer a daily TLM Mass? They have two daily Masses. Why not make one a TLM, and keep the other one Novus Ordo? Let’s see what will happen with genuine competition.

    The problem with trying to grow the TLM in the Church, is that the TLM is only celebrated once on Sunday at a fixed time. The Novus Ordo gets to have three or four Masses on a Sunday and they are scheduled at different times for the Faithful to be be able to choose at their convinience, which time thy want to attend Mass. Then the weekday Masses are all Novus Ordo. The TLM doesn’t have that luxury. Of course the Novus Ordo Mass is going to win with those odds. Let’s also keep in mind that 75% of Catholics don’t even attend Mass on Sundays.

    I would like to see what would happen if the TLM were given the chance to be celebrated at every parish in the country side by side with the new Mass. Let’s see what would happen if there was multiple TLMs on Sunday and also on the Weekdays. Then we will get a real clear picture. Then Catholics would be able to vote with their feet.

  56. ndmom says:

    “Why doesn’t the parish offer a daily TLM Mass?”

    Good question. I don’t know, but will venture to guess that there aren’t enough people able and willing to attend. A good number of the Sunday TLM crowd neither lives nor works anywhere near the parish, so they would not be in the position to attend a TLM even if it were available. You are right that the N.O. has the advantage of multiple, convenient Mass times, while those interested in the TLM have to commit to a fixed time. But my point is that our parish is filled with exactly the sort of faithful, orthodox Catholics — some of whom have fled from nearby parishes with less reverent Masses — that many of you would dearly love to attract to your parishes, and yet most of them would rather attend a well-celebrated N.O. liturgy than the TLM, even though the TLM, as it were, “comes to them” and requires no undue inconvenience.

    Perhaps our parish actually has something closer to “genuine competition” than the choice between a loosey-goosey happy-clappy liturgy and the TLM, which is the competition that many of the commenters in this thread seem to envision.

  57. Centristian says:

    The Ordinary Form of Mass is neither feminized nor castrated. It is not wimpy, it is not Protestant. It is not W-E-A-K weak. When celebrated worthily it blows the doors off the pre-Conciliar Mass.

    It is reverent, it is majestic, it is sublime, it is heavenly. When celebrated properly the Ordinary Form of Mass bathes magnificently rich texts in the glories of our beloved Roman liturgical tradition, and that includes Gregorian Chant, and sacred polyphony, and magnificent vestments, and aromatic incense, and exquisitely executed ceremony.

    And on top of all that splendour…it actually reaches out to the congregation, acknowledging the physical presence of the worshipping faithful, proclaiming the Old Testament Lesson, and the Epistle, and the Holy Gospel, all in a language that those present understand! Hey! Well, look at that! It invites us, then, to present our intercessions to the Lord and then looks to us present our gifts in procession to the celebrant at the Offertory.

    Then we begin to hear the language of our Rite in the Preface and throughout the Eucharistic Prayer (of which the Roman Canon is but one). And when all is said and done and we are at last dismissed, we are actually dismissed. Ite Missa est. The order of the Ordinary Form of Mass is, in true Roman fashion, orderly that way. It is ROMAN that way. And when done right, our Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite of Mass IS the traditional Latin Mass. It is…quite simply…the most BEAUTIFUL THING THIS SIDE OF HEAVEN (well, that and the Eastern Rite liturgies, of course).

    And if the Ordinary Form of Mass were celebrated the RIGHT way, instead of the DUMB way…it, too, would foster vocations, and would energize YOUNG MEN (so important), and YOUNG WOMEN (less important, evidently), and would energize the laity to evangelization, and would fill up all those empty pews, and would cause Catholics to vote right, and would cause big biceps, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

    The Extraordinary Form is nice, too.


    God love you! *spins pencil around*

  58. Ambrose Jnr says:

    @ndmom: I agree with you that the chanted Latin ad orientem NO is not on its last legs at all…it’s odd thought that members of the Work does not support the TLM more enthusiastically yet, since St Josemaria loved it himself so much…maybe they are waiting for the Holy Father to start celebrating it himself — hopefully on 13 May 2012 for the anniversary of Universiae Ecclesiae?

    Come to think of it, the Legionaries have a motto of not moving slower or faster than the magisterium…does anyone know whether some LC priests have started celebrating the TLM?

  59. acardnal says:

    Ambrose Jnr,
    My parish priest is an LC. He is learning the TLM and has told me he plans to celebrate it. He is also in the process of leaving the LC and becoming incardinated as a diocesan priest.

  60. ContraMundum says:

    Please, folks, let’s take a deep breath and step back a bit.

    First of all, Centristian is right that “[t]he Ordinary Form of Mass is neither feminized nor castrated.” To suggest otherwise would be nearly, if not precisely, sacrilege.

    2120 Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.

    It can be, and too often is, celebrated very badly, but that is not the fault of the Ordinary Form itself. A priest who is sloppy with the Ordinary Form should not be expected to suddenly become St. John Vianney if he has to start celebrating with the Extraordinary Form.

    That said, I think it is a bit much to say that the OF “blows the doors off the pre-Conciliar Mass.” If something has been done the same way for several centuries, there’s usually a pretty good reason for it, and there is a real appeal to doing things the same way your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so forth have done them.

    This type of bizarre competition between the forms is like two groups arguing over which is more beautiful and worthy, the ass or the ass’s colt, when both were used on Palm Sunday. Jesus rode both animals, and He chose both animals, so perhaps you could say that they are both worthy. More significantly, though this is not where your focus should be. Don’t look at the donkey or the foal; look at Him Who rides on them.

  61. Ambrose Jnr says:


    Thank you very much for your testimony. This is very encouraging indeed!

    Let’s pray that the new LC leadership under the young German priest will renew the legion and that some LC priests who left in the future may return to the fold…a bit like the Cisterians were saved by Bernard of Clairvaux…

  62. The Cobbler says:

    @Centristian (& @ContraMundum),

    That’s why I qualified my statements initially with the note that it could be argued to be a matter of essentials or a matter of how badly done it happens to be in most cases, and qualified my comment later with “inasmuch as there is such a phenomenon [of alleged ‘feminization’]”. I probably could’ve made the qualifications clearer — I was addressing what many have observed and commenting on the observation, not getting into what the Novus Ordo can be under better circumstances.

    Although on that count, I frankly think there are pros and cons. The straightforwardness is wonderful (not that the harmony of priest, servers, choir and people in the old form isn’t, but they’re different sorts of wonderful). The tendency to devolve into the people following along the priest in the manner of a children’s tv show is, in my opinion, something that doesn’t _have_ to happen but is encouraged by the form itself and, also in my opinion, not good. (I’ve been to the old form enough to have it beaten through my head that my participation in Mass is supposed to be more than following along, just as the purpose of any of the supporting voices in a piece of polyphony is more than just following along with whoever has the melody in this piece.) Numerous other minor details can be debated back and forth. Frankly, I would like to see the sort of reform of the old form that Pius X would have wanted… someday, when it’s safe to begin working on that again, perhaps when I am an old man; and I would like also to see the new form be cleaned up and refined so as to retain the advantages of linearity without so tending to devolve into either a priest-laity chit-chat session or, what’s arguably worse (but which is harder to argue flows from the form itself), “participation” by singing along to some tasteless “music minister”‘s choice of slappy clappy song. (It was this last that convinced me, after being a continuity advocate for a few years, that whether the rubrics and form were salvageable or not there was something deeply wrong with the NO as it currently stands when so many people think mainly of singing along regardless of the stupidity and tastelessness of a lay “minister”‘s lead and pseudosecondarily, by which I mean it would be secondary if folk weren’t so exclusive as to put anything else in opposition to their primary things, of actually personally praying at Mass. Getting back to where I was before the parenthetical…) Both have different strengths that I think are valuable, despite my distate for the modern way that is typically associated with the NO.

    I’ve been to the NO celebrated faithfully (indeed, I believe I qualified another of my comments by referring to TLM and NO-as-correctly-intended together); I said for a long time that it can be traditional and that it should by default be in Latin (not the same as saying it should be always and everywhere, mind you; I’ve also said there’s nothing magical about Latin that makes it the language we use for holy things, rather it’s the way it’s been used for holy things that makes Latin more than just another language, and that same quality at least in theory ought to be able to extend to other languages _in time_), and thus that “TLM” as a name for the EF is a bit of a misnomer (but apparently nobody likes the term “Vetus Ordo”, so what can you do?); but at the end of the day I’m really not sure, anymore, that there isn’t cleanup to be done in the form itself to make it easier to do right and harder to do wrong.

    As for feminization, castration and the like… My point was simply that taking the masculine out of the Sacrifice of the Mass doesn’t make it feminine, and that if anyone’s going to be using harsh terms to describe the matter they ought to be using the more accurate among the harsh terms. ;^)

  63. Centristian says:


    “That said, I think it is a bit much to say that the OF ‘blows the doors off the pre-Conciliar Mass.’ ”

    Yes, it is a bit much. It was purposely a bit much, by way of demonstrating that Ex. Form proponents haven’t got a monopoly on hyperbole. Ordinary Form proponents should be able to counter with as much enthusiasm those Ordinary From assailants who say things that are a bit much, such as, for example…

    “The Novus Ordo Mass is on its last legs. The horrid missal will in 20 years; bite the dust, kick the bucket, hop off the twig, and give up the ghost.”

    …which somebody posted above.

    The general thrust of Michael Voris’ message I agree with, incidentally, although with my rather tongue-in-cheek post I meant simply to offer that the lively future of the Church is wrapped up in an embrace of Catholic tradition, which “TLM”-only proponents haven’t got a monopoly on (despite what some of them evidently imagine), and which is not outwardly expressed by the Tridentine Mass, alone. It isn’t even expressed by the Roman Rite, alone. The Eastern Rites of our Catholic Church also beautifully and traditionally give life to the faith of Catholics around the world.

  64. Martial Artist says:

    Father Z,

    You wrote

    You decide.

    I would say that Father Blake is batting 8 for 8, i.e., 1.000! And, based on being a parishioner in a Dominican parish I think that much the same is true for the Dominican Rite Mass.

    Pax et bonum,
    Keith Töpfer

  65. Gail F says:

    I agree with Centristian. When the NO is celebrated well, it’s great. I also think that having the EF around will push parishes to FINALLY celebrate the NO well. People who think the NO is on its way out are fooling themselves — it is celebrated almost everywhere, almost all the time — and people who refuse to see that it IS the same mass are cutting their noses of to spite their faces. To be blunt. The NO can be beautiful and reverent, and I don’t see how anyone can reject it without rejecting the magisterium of the Church. My goodness, no one can deny that it can be awful, or even that it’s frequently awful. But it’s still the mass. I predict that TLM will continue to grow and, if we are fortunate, become common in all parishes; and that it will also push the NO parishes to do a far better job with their tired liturgies. I hope that the day is coming soon when the mass envisioned at Vatican II will finally become a reality in most places.

    I do not like Michael Voris generally, his approach is too strident. The Church is supposed to be concerned about ALL catholics, and he is too much “either/or” for me. That said, he is right in that first video! (Haven’t watched the second). This is where the growth and excitement is in the Church. This is where young, vibrant people are. They are not bitter, they are not nasty and condescending (as — sorry to say it — too many TLM people can be). They do not have the disappointments and betrayals of the past weighing them down and marking everything they do and say — which, though completely understandable, does not attract others. They are excited, posititive, delighted with their discoveries and matter-of-fact about their faith. They attract others. And they are CATHOLIC. God brings good out of bad; perhaps these joyful and faithful young people are the good that came out of the long slog after Vatican II, and will actually bring about the promises of Vatican II.

  66. Phil_NL says:

    To a large extent I echo Centristians and Gail F’s points.

    Most of the time, the typical OF Mass is compared to a typical EF Mass. This is natural in many ways, but gives the OF a severe disadvantge as it’s typically celebrated rather badly. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with asking for an EF to get rid of the poor ars celebrandi and ‘meaningfulness’ infused in many OF Masses. By all means!

    But when comparing a good, solid OF Mass, celebrated reverently, with the added decorum of chant, proper architecture and latin, with the EF Mass, the differences become much more subtle. That’s not to say they aren’t there, for example in the test of the prayers, but I noticed recently at my first EF Mass that even for a longstanding reading of this blog, these differences aren’t mindblowing. In fact, it takes time and lots of additional research to even notice them, let alone appreciate them.

    Therefore, I very much doubt if the NO is on its way out. It might be on the way out if everyone who has a poorly celebrated OF moves to a standard (and therefore fairly decently celebrated) EF. But far more likely is a route where the existing OF Masses will gradualy loose their abuses as the ‘silly season’ draws to a close. Add some of the trappings of the rich Catholic heritage of yesteryear, and I doubt many Catholics will really care for the difference between such a setup and the EF. If that’s good or bad is still an open question for me, but I have no doubt that given a decent OF Mass and absent a massive increase in cathechismic and theological education, many Catholics, lay and priests alike, will be quite content, even if they occasionally attend an EF Mass so they see the difference.

  67. Phil_NL says:

    That should have been ‘text of the prayers’ and ‘longstanding reader’

  68. pinoytraddie says:

    Fr Blake: “Trad Mass appeals to men, especially young men”.

    Me: AMEN! I am One of Them,especially the latter.

  69. Although I love the best in both forms of the Roman rite, some of the comments in this thread remind me of an insight of Martin Mosebach in “Heresy of Formlessness”. The gist of it:

    The weakness of the OF is revealed by the statement that, with sufficient effort, it can be celebrated well. The strength of the EF is revealed by the statement that, with sufficient effort, it can be celebrated poorly.

    That said, I mostly only see the OF celebrated well. This I accomplish by generally attending the OF only when celebrated by young priests who celebrate the EF also. Fortunately, there are an adequate number of these near me.

  70. justamouse says:

    Voris is right, this momma and her homeschooling family of 7 are learning Latin, and I would love to frequent a TLM.

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